Bleeding Daylight

Kim Sorrelle is an entrepreneur and the director of a humanitarian organization. She splits her time between her home in Michigan and the countries of Haiti and the Dominican Republic. In a world that uses the word love to describe our connection to everything from people close to us to our favourite food or TV show, Kim decided to look more deeply into what love truly means. Her book, 'Love Is' tells the story of her year-long experiment of truly living out love.   https://www.facebook.com/loveisbykim  https://www.linkedin.com/in/kim-langlois-sorrelle-11079523/  https://www.instagram.com/kimsorrelle/  https://twitter.com/Kim_Sorrelle  https://www.kimsorrelle.com  https://www.facebook.com/ksorrelle  https://www.amazon.com/Love-Yearlong-Experiment-Living-Corinthians/dp/0825446740  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa097sxQXqa9Oafbay9FCiw 

Amy Nordhues is an author and speaker who uses her experience as a victim of sexual abuse to help, support and educate others. Her book Prayed Upon, Breaking Free from Therapist Abuse, tells her story of abuse, escape and ultimate healing by a predatory psychiatrist and church elder. https://amynordhues.com/  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09HR9TN3N  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59222402-prayed-upon  https://www.facebook.com/AmyNordhues 

Steve and Katie Keene have five children, including two with special needs. Over the last 17 years they have strived to build a strong marriage with happy thriving children. They've created the Family Success System, using their own family struggles and journey to provide support for other families of all kinds.     https://instagram.com/familysuccesssecrets   https://www.facebook.com/groups/447138769891195   https://podcast.familysuccesssecrets.com   https://familysuccesssecrets.com

Scott LaPierre is the senior pastor of Woodland Christian Church, a Regional Facilitator for Church and Family Life, an author, and conference speaker. Together with his wife, Katie, he homeschools their nine children. He’s a blogger and podcaster. Holds a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration, Master of Arts in Education and Master of Arts in Religion: Biblical Studies.     https://www.scottlapierre.org 

Sarah Geringer has been filling diaries since the age of 11 and it was only a handful of years later, at the age of 16, that she realised that her passion for writing was more than a personal pastime. While raising a family put her calling of writing on the backburner for some years, she’s now a published author, podcaster, blogger and speaker. She has overcome a series of traumas in her life and is now helping others to do the same.   https://www.sarahgeringer.com https://www.facebook.com/sarahgeringercreates https://www.instagram.com/sgeringer https://www.twitter.com/sarahgeringer

Amber Jones is a peer psychoeducator who is an advocate for families and individuals in need of hope. She’s the founder of GraceStory Ministries, connecting people with education, resources, and community, equipping them for the journey of restoration. She draws from her own story of childhood trauma and her journey to wholeness in order to inspire others to take their own first, intentional steps towards healing.   http://gracestoryministries.com http://instagram.com/my_grace_story http://facebook.com/gracestoryministries

Ginny Dent Brant grew up around the halls of power in the White House, rubbing shoulders with those in the highest office from both sides of politics. More recently she has written a book about overcoming cancer and how we can avoid or overcome many common illnesses. Unleash Your God-Given Healing tells the story of her journey through the diagnosis and then healing from cancer.   www.ginnybrant.com  https://www.facebook.com/ginny.d.brant  

Alcohol ruled every piece of Sherry Hoppen’s life for ten years. As part of dealing with her addiction, she found herself on an incredible journey that you'll hear about in this episode. Sherry authored the book Sober Cycle and has an online community named She Surrenders which is helping others beat addictions of all kinds.     http://shesurrenders.com   http://facebook.com/shesurrenderssherry  http://instagram.com/shesurrenders_sherry 

Seth Emery is a writer, musician, graphic designer, podcaster and a whole lot more. He has lived in various places around the world but these days calls Adelaide, South Australia home. His book, Picture the Story asks, if God's story is called "Good News" what’s so good about it? What does it have to do with us, today?   Connect with Seth Emery: http://sethemery.com  http://instagram.com/sethemery  http://theninedesign.com.au  http://gathered.church 

Neil Matthews is a podcaster who has a genuine interest in people. He spends a lot of time trying to put himself in other people’s shoes to discover who they are, and what’s behind their beliefs and the things they do. While most of the time he’s listening to other people’s stories, he has a story of his own that he uses to encourage others towards recovery.   https://www.opspodcast.com/ https://www.facebook.com/opspodcastshow https://www.instagram.com/opspodcastshow/ https://twitter.com/opspodcastshow 

Neil Tomba is the Senior Pastor of Northwest Bible Church and an avid cyclist. Years ago, Neil began dreaming about combining two of his greatest passions: having conversations about Jesus and spending time in the great outdoors. In June 2019, Neil cycled across the United States where, along the way, he engaged in conversations with individuals from all walks of life. It wasn’t just a one way conversation. He wanted to hear the hearts of the people he met. The journey was captured by a film team and has been turned into a book. https://www.neiltomba.com/ http://instagram.com/neiltomba https://www.facebook.com/NeilTomba/ https://twitter.com/neiltomba  

If you’re someone who believes there is a God, where do you find him? Is it in the big moments, or within the silence or the small things? Paul Granger is committed to seeing God in the 'everyday' and to helping others see him there too. He spends a lot of time asking the question, “Where Did You See God?” Paul is a writer and podcaster. He currently serves with Youth With A Mission and has a focus on shepherding others as they seek to "love God and love others".   http://wheredidyouseeGod.com https://www.facebook.com/wheredidyouseeGod https://www.instagram.com/wheredidyouseegod/   

What would inspire you to walk 1,400 miles over just a few months? For Barry Adkins, it was the tragedy of losing his son to alcohol poisoning. That tragedy has kept him searching for the ‘good thing’ that is to come out of the bad. Barry has warned tens of thousands of people about the dangers of binge drinking. Barry tells the story of his journey and the reason behind it in his book, Kevin’s Last Walk.    www.kevinslastwalk.com facebook.com/kevinslastwalk twitter.com/kevinslastwalk

Kristin Beale is the author of three books, a weekly comic strip, and an upcoming TV show based on one of her books. She has completed nine marathons and is a national level fencer. Kristin has always led a very active life when she was in her mid-teens. One moment changed her life forever and many would describe it as a defining moment but again, and again, she has refused to be defined by that moment in time.     www.kristinbeale.com  http://instagram.com/greater.things.comics  http://instagram.com/kristin.gupta   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVgwq5o00b0 

Cody Wieler spent years battling with food obsession, constantly getting on and off of diets, binging and restricting, all leading to punishing workouts. After years of struggling to obtain and maintain his dream body, he was struck by a realisation that was to change his life forever. His podcast, Strong for Your Tasks is now helping others to that same realisation. He has also written a book of the same name.   http://instagram.com/codywieler  http://codywieler.com  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08NS97NYS/     

Marnie Swedberg went from being someone who struggled to read while she was at school, to now having read thousands of books and written more than a dozen herself. She is an international leadership mentor, the host of her own radio talk show, a media expert and a keynote speaker for organizations around the world. She has trained, coached and mentored over 15,000 leaders from 35 countries.   http://marnie.com http://facebook.com/SpeakerMarnie https://www.instagram.com/mentormarnie/ https://www.youtube.com/c/godlywomenworldwide

Chris Staron is an award-winning filmmaker, novelist, improv-comedian, and the producer and host of the Truce Podcast, which dives deep into history to explore how we got here and how we can do better. He's an author and the writer, director and producer of the films Bringing up Bobby and Between the Walls. On Bleeding Daylight he shares his journey of leaving a faith based on anger to one marked by compassion and love.   www.trucepodcast.com  www.twitter.com/trucepodcast  www.facebook.com/trucepodcast 

Jenny Toh studied Law in England, had a legal career spanning almost three decades in Malaysia and Singapore working for a range of employers including a global oil and gas company as well as global banks. Personally, life was good, with a great family and close friends, but something was still missing. Jenny is the director of River Life Coaching where she coaches individuals to align their career and life goals with their values and strengths.   https://www.riverlifecoaching.com  https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenny-toh-cpc-acc  https://www.facebook.com/riverlifecoaching  https://www.instagram.com/riverlifecoaching  https://www.positiveintelligence.com 

Laura Padgett faced the pointing fingers of those who considered her unworthy. In her younger years, she was excluded and experienced a very difficult upbringing. Now she’s opening the door to others who have faced discrimination and exclusion. She’s an Author, Speaker, Dancer, and Podcaster who shares stories of inspiration and transformation.   https://lauralpadgett.com https://www.facebook.com/LauraLPadgettAuthorSpeakerDancer https://www.instagram.com/laurapadgettauthor https://twitter.com/lauraleepadgett

Where do you turn when your life has been routinely punctuated by abuse and even your friends have ripped you off? Who do you trust? Staci Diffendaffer has replaced hurt with healing. Right from a very early age, she experienced a tremendous amount of pain and trauma. The events that caused that pain and trauma shaped her thinking and caused her to form harmful beliefs about herself and about others. Severe financial loss and serious health issues caused further heartache. Her book, Unconditioned Love: Healing Hearts and Minds in a Time of Conflict and Division, tells the story of her trauma and her healing.   http://ownyourvictory.com http://bit.ly/Unconditioned-Love http://linkedin.com/in/staci-diffendaffer https://www.instagram.com/stacidiffendaffer

Tony Green has known what most people would consider success. He reached incredible heights in the corporate world, earning significant wealth and respect, but it all came crashing down and Tony was left to build his life again. These days, life looks very different. His book, Triumphant Surrender is a best seller that talks about a very countercultural idea of what success means.   http://www.triumphantsurrender.com/   https://www.facebook.com/Triumphant-Surrender-The-Book-by-Tony-Green-107487784539654   +1 504-384-3888   tony.green@triumphantsurrender.com 

None of us like to be constantly put down and criticised, yet our harshest critic is often our own internal dialogue. The words we speak to ourselves can hold us back or even cripple us emotionally. John Stange is helping people discover a better way. He is the lead pastor of Core Creek Community Church in Pennsylvania, as well as being an adjunct professor at Cairn University. He hosts three podcasts, The Chapter-a-Day Audio Bible, Daily Devotions with Pastor John, and Dwell on These Things.   http://DesireJesus.com  https://www.instagram.com/pastorjohnstange/  https://twitter.com/pastorstange 

What if you’re not who you’ve always thought you were? What if you discovered that you’re someone entirely different? Sharon Hughes believes that’s not only her story, she would suggest that it’s very likely to be your story too. This episode could change the way you think about yourself, forever. Sharon Hughes is the founder of Confidence Academy, the host of Called to Confidence podcast, a confidence and Self-worth expert, and Critical Incident Stress Debriefer. Her first book, The Girl in the Garage: 3 Steps to Letting Go of Your Past became an Amazon number 1 new release.   http://sharonhughes.net  https://www.facebook.com/CalledtoConfidence  https://www.instagram.com/sharonhughesofficial/  https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharon-hughes-speaker/ 

Mike Hatch spends much of his time equipping men to be all they can be. He’s the National Relationship Generator with an organization called CLC, or Christ Led Communities. In a time of uncertainty and confusion, he’s making a difference in the lives of countless men. Mike is also a podcaster. During our conversation, you’ll hear how to get a free copy of his new book, which tells about his own journey towards empowered manhood.   http://clchq.org  mhatch@clchq.org  https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikehatch02  http://empoweredmanhood.com   http://instagram.com/mhatch0202  

Kirk McCarley has so far lead a fascinating life, with a number of careers, many of them at the same time. A major health event caused him to reassess his life direction and drew him into his current main vocation. Known as The Seed Sower Coach, Kirk has more than 30 years of executive leadership experience in both the public and private sectors. He’s been married for over 40 years, has two children and two grandchildren.   https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirk-mccarley-1bbba950/ https://theseedsowercoach.com/ https://www.facebook.com/KirkMcCarleyTheSeedSowerCoach/ kirk@theseedsowercoach.com Phone: +1 314-677-8779      

Jerry Dugan spent his childhood moving not only from state to state but from country to country. Unfortunately, it wasn't an idyllic life. He grew up with massive expectations hanging over his head, and issues within his family made growing up a very rocky road. These days, he hosts a podcast named Beyond the Rut, and he focuses on helping others be the best they can be.   https://beyondtherut.com https://www.facebook.com/Beyondtherut  https://www.instagram.com/beyondtherut/ https://twitter.com/beyondtherut 

What does it mean to be in the presence of God? Is it a meaningless religious phrase or a reality? My guest today talks about an encounter that transformed his life. Kevin White is a pastor and author. Some years ago, he was nearly broke, had no job, and yet began generously putting food on the table for other families. That sparked him to found an organisation that feeds over 500 families in his area. He is the Founder/Executive Director of Global Hope India, a mission organization providing access to the gospel to Indian Nationals. He's now traveled to India over fifty times, hosting a thousand people on mission trips.   http://kevinwhite.us https://www.amazon.com/Audacious-Generosity-Experience-Receive-Possible/dp/1544516142  

After reaching rock-bottom, Damon Covert knew something had to change. This is his story of how change happened and how he’s helping others find healthy life change. Everywhere we look, sexualized images that once would have been hidden from view and now are readily available online, whether we want to see them or not. Damon allowed society's take on sex and sexuality to shape who he was. It almost destroyed him. His story is now one of hope.     https://www.principle8ministries.org     https://www.facebook.com/Principle8 https://www.instagram.com/damoncovert/       (This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)   Emily Olsen  Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.   Rodney Olsen  Thanks for listening. You can follow Bleeding Daylight and connect to our social media channels by following the links at bleedingdaylight.net If you’ve been encouraged by episodes of Bleeding Daylight, please encourage others by sharing episodes and leave a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts.   After reaching rock-bottom, today’s guest knew something had to change. Today we’ll hear the story of how change happened for him and how he’s helping others find healthy life change.   It's everywhere we look. Sexualized images that once would have been hidden from view and now are readily available online, whether we want to see them or not. More than that they're on our televisions, on billboards, in advertising in our shopping malls, and so many other places that we've become desensitized to how much something that was once private, is being pushed into the public sphere. Damon Covert is someone who allowed society's new take on sex and sexuality to shape who he was. It almost destroyed him. He's my guest on Bleeding Daylight today, and together, we'll explore a very different kind of addiction. Damon, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.   Damon Covert  Thank you, Rodney, it's a pleasure to be here.   Rodney Olsen  You describe yourself as a grateful recovering addict and that immediately makes us think of drink or drugs but your addiction was very different. Tell me what it was that gripped you.   Damon Covert  I was introduced to pornography when I was only about eight or nine years old. Now this is BC This is before computers before cell phones, at least before personal computers. And I grew up or rather got older in the 80s. And so you know, if you wanted pornography, you had to go out and find it. I wasn't even actively looking. I was just with some friends. And again, it was after a Cub Scout meeting of all things, which was, which was kind of crazy. Because, you know, in scouting, they teach about, you know, morality, and being gentlemanly, and so forth. And there was nothing gentlemanly about what I was introduced to in that attic that night. You know, I didn't even fully understand what I was looking at. as a as a child of only eight or nine, these magazines were actually fairly explicit. They were not, you know, this wasn't just nudity there were there was a bit more graphic nature to it. And I didn't have an immediate craving for more of that, that would that would come later in my adolescence. And my exposure to pornography actually was was kind of it wasn't terribly overwhelming until I got into my my adolescence, my teen years, when, you know, friends were exploring this sort of thing. And it developed slowly at first. But the introduction was very early. At an impressionable age,   Rodney Olsen  We hear more and more especially in this digital age, that the time that young people are introduced to pornography, or at least first see pornography is getting younger and younger, that it seems that it was pretty much the case back then and maybe not as widespread. But for you as an eight or nine year old, you're starting to see things that you really don't understand. So what was it that brought you back to it? Or was it something that well, that's what I've seen, and, and I'll move away from it. And you were drawn back in your adolescence,   Damon Covert  I think it was just like any addiction. I think this is why it's so easy for people to get hooked on anything. It could be shopping, gambling, it could be video games, I think it was just a way for me to medicate my emotional pain. You know, I really didn't understand what I was looking at. But it did, it did create a certain reaction to my brain. And and actually, we've come to understand, since that the science behind pornography is virtually identical. In terms of what it does in your brain, to drug addiction. I've seen brain scans of people who have just taken heroin. And compare those with a brain scan of someone who's viewing pornography, the same areas, the same pleasure centers of your brain are lit up when you're when those two activities are going on. So it is it is a biochemical thing. But you know, again, it's it's just interesting that you don't have to actually physically take a drug to get that same high in your brain. I was not necessarily the most popular kid in school, I wanted to be well liked. I wanted to be thought of as as a fun person to be around. I typically didn't feel like I fit in very well. And we're also hearing that a lot these days with younger people, you know, where they don't feel like they fit in. So they start to assume certain things about their, their identity and so forth. And it was just a way to medicate my emotional pain.   Rodney Olsen  So that emotional pain, what was going on for you at the time? Was it just those struggles that we all face through adolescence and wanting to be liked by people as we go through those high school years? Or was there more to it at that stage?   Damon Covert  I think there was much more to it. And I do think that a lot of addiction is rooted in early trauma. I think it had to do mostly with my family of origin. I had a loving family. I grew up in a nominally Christian home and we really didn't go to church a lot, maybe on Easter. You know, my mom sent my brother and myself to vacation Bible school to get us out of the house for a couple weeks during the summer. And you know, that really was it. I didn't have a great foundation spiritually. But my home life was a little tense. I learned to walk on eggshells because I never really could fully predict what side of the bed my mom might wake up on. And so I learned to kind of toe the line, I knew my parents loved me. But I couldn't always feel like I deserve that love. And that sort of shaped my my view of God to growing up, I wanted to have a little more control over my life didn't feel like I could have that openly. So I think it was channeled into addictive behavior. And when I think we see this with with other addictions, as well, but it certainly was, was just a way of exercising a degree of control, or at least the feeling that I was in some kind of control over some aspect of my life. And so I think it was more to do with the the early trauma of dealing with parental anger and so forth. You know, I was never physically abused, I have no recollection of being sexually abused, although many people that are addicted to pornography and struggle with sexual addiction are, in fact, emotionally, physically and or sexually abused. To, interestingly enough, the emotional abuse is, is a higher incidence, it's over 90% of people that struggle with sexual addiction, are dealing with some sort of emotional abuse, versus 70, or 80%, of physical or sexual abuse,   Rodney Olsen  You're talking there about having some kind of control in your life, being able to control something because everything else seemed out of control. I'm interested in the whole idea of addiction in this sexual addiction that you found yourself in, along with addiction to drugs or alcohol, that they seem to start as being a way of someone having some kind of control. But how quickly did that start to control you? How quickly did the tables turn for you?   Damon Covert  Yeah, that's a great question, Rodney. And I think it probably happened a lot earlier than I realized. And I think that's how it knew that is in the addict mind, is that we tend to think that it's all under control. It's not a problem, until it's a problem, it's not a problem until somebody finds out or you get caught. So I think it very quickly, especially me, in my adolescence, it very quickly escalated, daily need to partake of this, this addiction. Again, it wasn't like you could just pick up your phone these days, I actually feel sorry, for a lot of the you know, a lot of people that struggle with this, because it is so easy to access this material these days, you don't even need to go by anything, you will probably already have the phone, and you probably already have an internet connection. And so it's just a matter of grabbing that piece of technology and beaming this stuff into your brain. But even if I wasn't able to seek out and physically find pornography to look at, again, this is the early 80s, there were no personal computers hooked up to an internet, my friend had a Commodore 64. And that was, you know, the hot computer at that time. There was also the the physical gratification that goes along with that was something that quickly took over my life, we're told it's kind of a normal thing for for adolescents to do. I prefer the word common, I think we use the word normal far too often. I think that, you know, it quickly spiraled for me, where I was, you know, I was acting out in some way, shape or form almost every day, and unable to go even even a couple of days, without using my drug of choice in some way, shape or form.   Rodney Olsen  You're mentioning that it's very common. Society would like to tell us that this means that it's normal. And of course, it becomes more and more normalized as we go on. And I think probably around the 80s, and especially into the 90s. And after that it became even more normal, where even in our television shows if there wasn't something pornographic in there. There was mention of it, there was a lot of mentioning just some fairly standard comedies on TV where they're constantly talking about use of pornography as if it's a very normal thing. Do you think that this has been one of those things that has supposedly normalized it in our society and stopped people from getting help when they need it?   Damon Covert  Absolutely. It's sort of a chicken versus the egg conundrum. Which came first? Is it art imitating life? Or is it life imitating art? Or are we now just sort of stuck in this cycle of life imitating art imitating life imitating art? And and I think that it definitely has been normalized. And we've seen that across the board. And unfortunately, it's it's a slow progression as well, we're seeing more and more deviation from what used to be normal, normal no longer means much anymore, because we have overuse that word. There's a commonality in terms of our internal struggles and the way we deal with things as human beings. In the United States. We have an estimate of about 30 million Americans who are struggling with some form of sexual addiction, you know, it's 68% of our population, I honestly do the numbers a lot higher, because, you know, it's a very touchy subject, nobody wants to really admit that they have the sort of problem. But I do think that absolutely the the media have created this the sort of standard that it's perfectly normal to, to view pornography and act out on a on a regular basis, you know, alone or with others. And that's just how it is. Somehow celibacy is fatal. You know, I've never met anyone who died of celibacy. And you won't, because, you know, when I was in college, I was taught in psychology class that, you know, sex was a basic human need, you know, you had food, water, shelter, and sex. And that's just not true. It's just not true. We have a sexual element to our personalities, God created us as sexual beings. But there is a stewardship that should go along with that I never really took seriously. I mean, I did initially because I wanted to do the right thing. I wanted to be pure. I was anything but but you know, I, since I technically had not lost my virginity, yet, I still thought of myself as a pure person. And honestly, I was weird even back then for that, yes, I didn't grow up in the, in the, the new Victorian 1950s in America, where you didn't say the word pregnant on television, and people slept in separate beds on TV. You know, I grew up watching, I Love Lucy and Dick Van Dyke and all the reruns from, you know, the 50s, and so forth, where you didn't see, you know, husband and wife, even sleeping in the same bed now, you know, somebody goes out to a bar, and they meet somebody on a TV show, and the next scene, they're in bed together. So it is it is definitely a problem where this is normalized for our kids. This is normalized for young adults who are trying to discover, you know, what it means to be alive here in these modern times.   Rodney Olsen  And you're talking about the tricks that we play in our own minds. They're about thinking, Well, I haven't actually slept with anyone. So therefore, I'm still pure. I'm still sexually abstaining. And yet we see that there are these tricks that we play. And there, of course, was the famous one some years back where one of your presidents said I did not have sexual relations with that woman, because he decided what was going to be under that heading and what wasn't?   Damon Covert  Yeah, I had a feeling you were headed there Rodney. And I was I was going right there, too. I do. I do have to blame our one of our former presidents, but it's not just him. You know, it's it's been like that we've been trying to redefine things for so long. You know, if we don't like the way a word is used, we'll just redefine what it means. And we're seeing that more and more and more. And, and it's just to suit a certain narrative. So that we can feel like, you know, everything's okay. It's a control thing. I think we have people that are there. Basically, we're addicted to self, we want to feel better than we feel. If we don't feel accepted, if we don't feel loved. We're going to redefine what love means. And actually, I mean, that's the the the other point I'd like to make is that too often, I mean, we are trying to equate love and sex. Sex is sex and love is love. There's a certain movement where you know, you'll see this, the words Love is love, and that that's true. But sex is sex. You know, sex is not equal Love, love is greater than sex. Going back to the books, we read the shows, we watch the music, you know, the words love and sex are used interchangeably. And I think it's just because we have been for so long, we've been redefining what words mean, we're, we're redefining things where they now have no meaning. And we're seeing that go. In the United States where we're seeing that go to an extreme. We're just assigning the gender really isn't even a thing. And I know that's a very touchy topic. But, you know, we've we've gone and taken some steps here in the United States, and it still hasn't played out completely, but we are D gendering our legislation. And I do think too, and a lot of ways these gender issues, these are addictive thought patterns. You know, this is a way of exercising control a, here's how I want to be seen, here's how I want to be, you know, addressed. Here's how I want to physically dress, here's what I want my body to look like, and we just make these changes, whether it's, you know, some sort of implants to make us look more attractive. Or if it's, if it's just more radical modification of bodies. There's there's there's a whole rabbit trail of things that can come out of this, this idea that you know, our identity our sexual identity is paramount in our lives.   Rodney Olsen  I'm interested that you bring up the the whole point of the love is love campaign that we've seen, which is designed to say well, anything goes because They use love as as an attraction rather than defining it as that self giving love that that we might understand it to be. So when I say love is love, I have to agree. But first you've got to determine what the terms mean that you're actually talking about.   Damon Covert  The Greeks actually have as you probably know, there are at least six or seven different words for love. It's it's sort of like the American Eskimo or illusion, people's, you know, words for snow, they have all of these different types of snow. And they have a special word for each one. And, you know, in in the Greek language, you know, people are maybe familiar with the term agape love, which is sort of that all encompassing, accepting altruistic love, but then you know, you have philia, which is a love of friendship. And again, there, there's an interesting, we're not going to touch on a really touchy topic here. But when we talk about pedophilia, for example, and when you tell somebody you have a sexual addiction, I think their mind in a lot of cases wants to go to the worst possible place. They want to assume that you're some sort of pedophile that you know, you have a problem with sexual attraction to children. I praise God that my situation didn't get to that point. But it is a progression. So it is something to be very, very careful about because, again, the mind wants something different all the time. And the media will feed you whatever filth you want, they will provide that for you ad nauseum. I don't like the word pedophilia, only because I don't think that really fits the definition. a pedophile is a Laker of children. I think that we should if we're going to create a word for that that type of aberrant behavior or attitude, it should be a little more accurate. This is we're talking about erotic love, or physical love. You know, the Greek word arrows. You know, again, it's a way of softening that word. Well, I just like kids, you know, when when Penn State University in my home state of Pennsylvania, a number of years ago, there was the Jerry Sandusky scandal. And Jerry Sandusky, for example. He just said, Well, you know, I just I like kids. I love kids. But yeah, not in the right way. Jerry, I'm sorry, you know that there's, there's no point at which a child should be subjected to the sexual advances of an adult. And I think most people would agree with that. But we are gradually heading toward as you said, anything goes? The logic could be well, that's just my sexual expression. You don't have the right to tell me that that's not okay. I think right now, the majority of people would say, absolutely not, this is totally off limits, and never should be okay. But I think we are going to see a Fabian progression, start to blur those lines. And we do see that, where I'm where I'm broadcasting from right now, in the state of Maryland, we have a law that says if it is cultural, that a minor can be married to a much older adult with parental consent. So if it is cultural, you know, out of specific religious belief. And we have a 14 year old girl whose parents are okay with this 45 year old man being her husband, that's legal. And again, as you said, it's we're headed toward a situation where anything goes where there's this this concept of pansexuality, you know, anybody anything anytime, as so long as I can feel better about me. And that's really what addiction is all about.   Rodney Olsen  We were talking about the fact that you became hooked in your adolescence. But where did it go from there? Where did it become such a problem for you?   Damon Covert  You know, when you're young, and you're single, and you're unattached, and you think, well, this is no big deal. You know, first of all, sounds like all my friends are doing the same sorts of things. It's not a problem. But it becomes a problem when you're especially when you're impacting another person directly. Now, I think there's there's a concept in a lot of people's minds that pornography is a victimless crime. It's not. Because you know, we have we can demonstrate the direct connection between human trafficking and pornography, and the the so called sex trades and pornography. Where it became a problem for me was relationally. One of the one of the things about a sexual addict is typically when they will want to find someone who's willing to to be with them and kind of satisfy their physical needs or desires. A lot of times, immediately after that there's a rejection because of the shame But the addict feels, and they will often push that person away. And this would this was my problem, too, I was keeping people at arm's length, I was desperate and hungry for intimacy. And the physical intimacy did not provide what I wanted. I was not I do not feel necessarily accepted, simply because I was with someone physically. And so I kept trying to go back to that. And a lot of times that, you know, there is a cycle where you'll go to someone you know, is going to say yes to whatever it is you want to do. But immediately after, there's almost always a rejection, well, look at the time I've got to go. And, you know, we see that played out in the media, too, that there is there is some truth to it. I mean, that's the the really attractive thing about any lie is a grain of truth, that rings, you know, with, with other people in resonates with them and say, Oh, yeah, I've experienced that, where it really hit home for me, I wish I could say that this was not part of my story. Out of my addiction, and, and out of a lack of caution. One of the young ladies that I got involved with got pregnant. You know, we were panicked, we were scared, and we were young, it was a terrible time for either one of us to try to start a family. And because we didn't know what else to do, we had an abortion. I am every bit as responsible as the young lady involved, I still deal with the feelings about that. I mean, I think about that almost every day of my life. And it's easily by far the worst thing I ever did. And again, here, here's society, saying this really isn't a big deal. You know, we don't even call it a baby anymore. We're not we're not, you know, terminating a baby, it's a pregnancy, we're just terminating the pregnancy, the condition of being pregnant. That was my first real rock bottom moment, where I thought, Oh, my goodness, you know, this disease that I have, has driven me to the point where I have taken someone's life. In terms of the other ways it affected me. I carried it into my marriage, I you know, I eventually met a wonderful woman got married. And, you know, we were pretty happy at first or so I thought I still had my my secret sin, you know, ever since I bought a computer and was hooked up to the internet, I could access that. Anytime I had a little privacy. And that has, you know, I was going on for a long time. And, again, it wasn't a problem until it was a problem that kept fueling my my desire for that intimacy that I was searching for, which again, was never gonna be satisfied by pornography, or by physically acting out, you know, so this was going on, the entire time I was I was married, I would be okay, for a couple days, maybe, or I would try to quit. And maybe I'd make it a couple of weeks sort of white knuckling my way through recovery. And I wasn't involved in a recovery program at the time. So I was just doing it on my own, which by the way, never works. But eventually, because of the other stresses and strains on my marriage, I had emotional affairs, a couple of these in a short period of time. And then my wife found out she asked the right questions, and I was honest with her, and things hit the fan. And I really felt like, you know, my marriage was over, my family was over. And, you know, this was this was the next rock bottom for me. But by the grace of God, my wife took me back. And we've worked things out. And here we are, you know, 15 plus years on the far side of this stuff. Our marriage is not perfect, but it's good. And we work on it, you know, we actually have true intimacy, I can talk to my wife about some of my issues, and, and I have accountability and so forth.   Rodney Olsen  I'm interested, first of all about that term of an emotional affair, because this comes back to the whole idea that we can justify certain things Hey, look, I didn't go very far with it. It was just a sort of a connection for those that that perhaps don't understand what we're talking about. What would you classify as an emotional affair?   Damon Covert  I would say it's any relationship that you wouldn't want your spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend to know about. We have these relationships, whether it's someone at work, or someone we know socially, or an online relationship. So I think anything that you would want to keep a secret, when truth is our secrets keep us I was as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs, as they say, I just always worried that one of those rocking chairs was going to come down on my tail. It's any kind of relationship that you would not want your significant other to know about. I termed these emotional affairs because they did stop short of sex. But there was a physical element. You know, there was a physical affection element to these relationships, but just because they didn't actually involve intercourse. That doesn't make it right. We have to put up boundaries in our lives to be safe. You know, because Because it's it's very easy to get into a conversation and feeling an emotional connection with someone. And again, if you are an addict mindset, you can find a little touchstone with just about anybody. But it's just very dangerous. And it doesn't end well Trust me.   Rodney Olsen  So you've come to your own rock bottom, what was it that turned things around for you? How did you start to claw your way back to where you should have been?   Damon Covert  I can't take a lot of credit for that. I think that in a lot of times, a lot of situations like this, we have to be broken, very, very few people will wake up and just change because, okay, you know, I realized I'm in a bad way. For me, and let me just speak from my experience, I had to have those Wake Up Calls, you know, that was I had to suffer the consequences. And again, this is something we like, we want to have our, you know, our cake and eat it too. We don't want to have the consequences of our actions. And so I had to feel that sting. And I had to realize that, you know, the pain of continuing in my current way of thinking, My current mode of operation is greater than the pain of dealing with my stuff. And so after the disclosure of these emotional affairs, and the fallout from all of that, there was a long road, the spiritual connection really was, was what started that for me, I began to realize that I could not help myself, I needed a power greater than myself. And until that point, the God of my understanding was me. Again, I grew up in a in a nominally Christian home, I had heard the name of Jesus, I knew, you know that God loved me. But I didn't really comprehend that. I didn't really get that until I realized, I have nowhere else to go, and God will still take me back. I was the Prodigal Son, you know, I had been given all these great things, and I squandered them. And yet, my father not only took me back, but ran out to meet me. That was the point for me where it turned around, I realized that I was isolated, and shows isolation, as a way of protecting myself and my lifestyle. But I got plugged in to a church. And in my case, I'm a musician. So plugging into our worship team was was a logical step. And I served in any capacity, I told the worship leader, I said, I'll do whatever you whatever you need, you know, I ran the soundboard. I wasn't on platform for a while. I just did whatever they needed. And that helped me and I met some real friends, I met people that I can actually talk to. And I remember very clearly a number of years later, you know, finally opening up to one of my buddies on the worship team and telling him I had a long way to go in terms of my sexual purity. I remember that night with crystal clarity. And that was the beginning for me. And then our church started a Celebrate Recovery ministry. I started attending that because I knew they needed a worship leader for their their program. And I thought I'd go help those people, only to find out I was those people. And I needed to be there for me. For the last several years I've been I've been involved in some capacity with Celebrate Recovery. And then I heard about another fellowship that was geared towards sexual addiction. I started attending that as another layer of accountability. And, you know, I found a sponsor and people that understood my specific issues, although I have found and what I love about CR is that it is basically everything, you know, I mean, you can you have shopaholics there, you have gambling addicts, you have people who struggle with drugs and alcohol, you have people who struggle with codependency and sexual issues, it's across the board, we can get hooked on anything, to try to medicate that emotional pain   Rodney Olsen  Before we talk about the this ministry that you've begun. And I want to find out about that, and how we can hook people into that. But I want to go back to some of the things that you were saying before you were talking about pornography and those that it affects. And it's not just those who are consuming pornography, but those who are involved in it in the first place. And I heard a statistic somewhere that it's around 70 to 80% of the people that we see in those images have been forced there that have been trafficked there in some way. And, and I'd suggest that their number would probably be even higher.   Damon Covert  I'm sure it is Rodney, and you cannot prove consentuality even if there's some affidavit on the website that says everybody's 18 is here of their own free will. There's just no way of knowing that for sure. I don't want to be part of that problem. I got better for myself, and you have to want to get better for yourself. You have to be, I guess more miserable. You know, again, realizing that that point of your own pain is greater to continue in what you're doing then to make a change and start owning up to your stuff but You know, socially and culturally, there there is a greater mandate to not be part of the problem. I was definitely part of the problem. And I think you're right, I think that the the numbers are probably much higher. I actually had the privilege and blessing of hearing a woman speak her name is harmony Grillo, she was pimped out as a dancer by one of her former boyfriends. But she got out of that got away from this guy and went to school. Now she's got a master's degree, I think she might have two master's degrees. And she actually has her own ministry in her own organization that helps women get out of the sex trades. Over 80% of people that are working in the adult industry, women in particular, say they would rather not be some of the like, they don't have any financial choice. This is just, you know, the only only marketable skill they think they have. They also get into these situations where it's it's a promise of some some degree of fame and notoriety. I actually sat on a plane with a young lady. I was visiting my brother in Atlanta. God has a sense of humor, he puts the sex addict next to the aspiring playboy model. This young lady was probably 20 college age. I just felt like God was saying, you know, you should talk to this young lady, but it was not in a creepy way. It was just Hey, let's there's something going on here. Let's find out what what her story is. And so I started talking to her and I found out she was actually flying to Atlanta to do a swimsuit, shoot. This is how it starts, it starts out as Okay, well, we're going to bring you in, we're going to take some some pictures of you and your bathing suit next to a car and the setting, I think for some sort of advertisement. But then hey, what if we did this? And what if we did that? And hey, if we gave you a little bit more money, or let's let's have a couple drinks, or have some some, you know, have some drugs and try something else. And people get duped into this fraud, coercion and force? And yes, absolutely. I think the numbers are shockingly and terribly high. And it needs to stop. But we have to stop the demand. And the demand is within each one of us on some level. Even if you're just buying a dimestore novel, book, something that has graphic descriptions of you know, these these sexual conquests with these guys in a loincloth and tearing some lady's dress on the cover. This is porn. This is pornography. I had a pastor friend, retired pastor challenged me said, Well, how do you define pornography? I said, Well, you know, I had to think about it, because the old definition was you knew it when you saw it. Unfortunately, we don't know it when we see it anymore. So I would say that we should redefine pornography. Anything that triggers you to sexual lust is pornographic. Whether it's a book, you're reading a magazine, you're looking at a video, you're watching the music, you're listening to the way someone is talking to you or the way you're talking to somebody else. All of these things can be pornographic, it does not have to be an image. It does not have to be a video, we have to stop that demand in our hearts. We have to stop looking to fill ourselves up by taking from somebody else   Rodney Olsen  And stop redefining things. Stop calling something like 'ethical porn', when there's no way that it can be. We've got to stop redefining it to make ourselves feel comfortable, I guess.   Damon Covert  Absolutely. Yeah. And actually, there's a there's a fantastic but disturbing TED Talk. Lady talks about the so called ethical porn and some of these issues. And that the titles, the most popular titles, and the things that people search for are absolutely shocking. It's you know, whether or not that's actually what's being depicted, or whether it's just this is a scene we're setting for you. It is very disturbing. But again, it's disturbing, because this is somehow in some way it is relating back to an unresolved trauma, or unresolved issues in your past that caused you to seek out certain things. It is common, but it's not normal. There are other ways to process this, instead of just giving in and saying, I'm going to look at this, that or the other thing, I'm going to seek this stuff out and as you pointed out, it's you don't have to seek it out. It will find you and your phone and your TV, your TV's watching you. I don't think people realize this. But you know, George Orwell was right. He just didn't get the timeline quite right. You know, we're well past 1984. But we have black screens hanging on our walls listening to us watching us. Your TV has a camera, your phone has a camera. My computer has a camera, my iPad has a camera. There are microphones and there are things going on where I will have a conversation with my wife about, I don't know, paper towels or something. Sure enough, the next time I'm on social media, I get an ad for paper towels. So if we are, again, sort of letting these sort of things come out of our mouths, certain words, certain phrases, things like that. Then our phone is feeding us what we want. AI is behind all of that stuff, you can have an argument with your spouse, or your your boyfriend or your girlfriend, and it, you know, he may not even be specific to sex. But now, big brother knows your relationships a little rocky, Hey, remember this old girlfriend, you know, remember this thing that maybe you haven't seen this before? You know, take a look at this. And unfortunately, it's meant to divide. It's meant to undermine the the safety and security of our relationships and our families.   Rodney Olsen  It takes a lot of courage to come out to the world and say, this is where I was, these are the issues that I faced. But you've gone beyond that. And you've started up an opportunity for others who are caught in these addictions, to actually make a change in their own lives. Tell me about that.   Damon Covert  This actually was born out of my own recovery. And again, I'll give Celebrate Recovery, a little plug here, because that was that those were the rooms that I started to get well in and continue to work with other men and women toward getting better. And actually, the ministry is called principle eight. And it is based on the eighth principle of Celebrate Recovery, which mimics the 12 step of you know, and any other a program, whether it's, you know, Narcotics Anonymous or Alcoholics Anonymous or Overeaters Anonymous or what have you. And that is to share the message, I consider myself a hope dealer. For me, Jesus is the hope, but I want to make the introduction, I used to be a certain way, and now I'm not. And the difference for me was my higher power, the highest power that I can can think of, and that's, that's Jesus Christ. So I want to share that message. But a lot of people are skeptical of the church, they've been hurt by the church, they've been hurt by somebody in the church, you know, they think of religion versus relationship with God. And, you know, maybe they grew up in a certain type of Christian church or, or they just have certain baggage attached with the way someone treated them. So they won't necessarily come to a church, they won't necessarily come to a recovery meeting that's held in the church. I know when I was in my active addiction, I thought, Man, I'm going to walk through the the threshold of that church and I'm going to burst into flames, God is going to smite me right there, I thought I had to get cleaned up. So I was good enough to present to God. And that's not the case. God says, Come to me, I will get you cleaned up. I want to be able to take this message out to college campuses, where we have hookup and date rape culture, and wild promiscuity. I want to take this into jails where you know, not everybody is there for a sexual offense. But there There certainly is a great deal of difficulty behind bars, and certainly, people medicating their emotional pain, sexually speaking, I think we need to start talking about this in church, you know, some pastors are brave enough to actually bring these things up. But it's usually one Sunday, a month, or maybe an occasional allusion to pornography or something like that. I'm actually really proud of my home church pastor, because he does bring this up on a regular basis. And we're very recovery friendly. Because I think recovery is God's plan. It's the same sort of thing. Look, you can't do this, I can turn it over, let's work on this together and get better. But I want to be able to take this message out to coffee houses, campgrounds, basically any place where I can gently ambush somebody with a message. And I do that through music, I write original recovery based and faith based songs. And somewhere in that language, maybe something's going to resonate with somebody, and they may not even fully understand why. But it's an introduction to a conversation. And a little explanation, then after the fact, might might help them, you know, want to seek out certain resources. And we're developing our own curriculum. But we also recognize that there's a lot of great work that's already been done. And we can refer people out to different organizations and different resources to help them on their journey.   Rodney Olsen  I'm sure there are some people who would feel that you're just another one of those Christians trying to tell others how to live. But in the meantime, I'm sure that there are so many people that you come into contact with who are saying, this is something that I need, I need this to break free from what is holding me back, as you said before, it started out as me wanting control. And now this thing controls me. I want out. So there must be a number of people that you've met with that are just so thankful that you were there for them.   Damon Covert  Well, it is a blessing to hear that somehow your story is helping somebody else. Because I have had people come up and say, You told my story or at least a part of and we say in the rooms of recovery, that if you you know come here long enough and you listen to enough testimonies, eventually you're going to hear your story, or at least something very much like it. You know, there is that again. It may Be not normal, but there is a commonality that exists. And, you know, just hearing that and knowing that you are not the only person who is struggling with this right now, you know, when we think about pornography, even in terms of whether it's a gender specific problem, it's not. It is a male and female problem. Sometimes it manifests in different ways, with men and women, but it is a it is a human problem. And acknowledging our commonality, our common struggles are common, you know, we suffer no temptation, except that which is common demand, it says right in the Scripture, and that is the truth that we do have these issues. We don't know how to solve them. But yes, talking to people and saying, Man, I really appreciate that you actually came out. And I mean, I started out by sharing a very, very detailed testimony in front of 150 strangers at a men's conference at my church, and I was terrified. But I was met with acceptance and gratitude. And it was a beautiful thing, to be able to share these deep, dark secrets and not be kept by them anymore. It was like, like nothing else, you know, it's just being accepted for who I was. And that's what that's what I was shown the love of God that way. You know what I want to show the love of God other people that way, regardless of what you done, no matter how far down that that spectrum, you slid. And again, it's not about comparison, everybody's rock bottom is going to be a little different. But boy, I would have loved a wake up call earlier, the alarm was going off, I just, I just kept hitting snooze, I wasn't listening,   Rodney Olsen  I know that you've come to that point where you can share what you've been through. But I'm sure that there are people listening right now who say, Look, I'm not at that point, I need to reach out. But this needs to remain something private, until I'm ready to share it is there hope for people like that,   Damon Covert  I wouldn't just encourage them to find one safe person that they can talk to. And that can be difficult. You know, it might not be your pastor, it might not be. It's probably not your spouse or your partner right now. Because again, they they are on the receiving end of this. And we have to be very sensitive that we have heard other people that there is there is absolutely hope. There are lots of great programs, many of them are geared toward anonymity, it is just a firm understanding and requirement when you walk through the door. The people you see the things that you hear, they stay in that room. And so you know, there, there are safe places. But even your most trusted friend might not be the best person because it might be your so called drinking buddy that you always, you know, hung around with and gotten into trouble with. So you need to find someone who looks like they have what you've got and then spend some time with that person, you know, find out if they're they're the real deal. Do they really walk the walk? Or are they just another, you know, person dressing up and shining up for Sunday.   Rodney Olsen  If people want to find out a little bit more about principle eight ministries or to contact you where's the best place to find you?   Damon Covert  Start with our website. It's www.principal8ministries.org. There are some resources there to help you get started on your recovery journey. Really, the vision for the ministry is to be able to go wherever God calls and whatever way God provides. So it is a vision driven, mobile, global multimedia ministry. And we exist to engage, encourage, equip, and empower people who are struggling with or affected by sexual addiction. That's the 15 second elevator speech for you right there. So yeah, check out www.principal8ministries.org And you can find out more about what we do and how we do it.   Rodney Olsen  And I'll put links in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net, so that you'll be able to find the details there. But Damon, it's been great talking to you. We've covered a lot of ground. I want to thank you for your openness, for your honesty in sharing about this issue. And I'm hoping that it's going to bring a lot of help, and a lot of healing to some of our listeners today. Thank you for your time on Bleeding Daylight.   Damon Covert  Amen, Rodney. Thank you so much. It's been a blessing.   Emily Olsen  Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net  

Samantha Jackel was raised in an Australian country town, the fourth child to alcoholic parents. Instead of finding love at home she encountered manipulation and abuse. She suffered a traumatic and abusive childhood, but even in the midst of the trauma, there were moments that held out a hope for the future. Her autobiography, My Purple Pants, tells about her road to transformation. In 2014, she was named as Mother of the Year in her home state of Victoria.   http://mypurplepants.com/ http://mypurplepants.com/product/book/ https://www.facebook.com/mypurplepants    (This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)   Emily Olsen  Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.   Rodney Olsen  Thanks for listening. You can follow Bleeding Daylight and connect to our social media channels by following the links at bleedingdaylight.net Please share Bleeding Daylight episodes and leave a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts.   Today’s guest was raised in a country town, the fourth child to alcoholic parents. Instead of finding love at home she encountered manipulation and abuse. Today we’ll hear her story of finding hope and healing.   Samantha Jackel suffered a traumatic and abusive childhood, but even in the midst of the trauma, there were moments that held out a hope for the future. Her autobiography, My Purple Pants, tells about her road to transformation. In 2014, she was named as Mother of the Year in her home state of Victoria in Australia. It's a real honor to have her join me on Bleeding Daylight. Samantha, thank you so much for your time.   Samantha Jackel  It's a pleasure, Rodney, thanks for having me.   Rodney Olsen  Let's go back to your earliest memories. Tell me about your very early family life.   Samantha Jackel  Look, my earliest memories would be of my mother and father arguing constantly and hiding in a bedroom with my hands over my head trying to drown out the noise and escape to another place and I would have been around four when I think that's around that age, when I had those experiences of just wanting to escape my screaming mom and dad, my father was an alcoholic. So he would often come home in a very aggressive, abusive state. And because I was the youngest of my siblings, I was home with my mom. And I would watch them interact. And even though I was so little, I still felt this incredible fear as my father would enter the house. So they would be my very first memories of my childhood.   Rodney Olsen  And who made up your family at that stage.   Samantha Jackel  Yeah, so I have a brother and two other sisters, and there was quite a large gap. So my brother is 10 years older than me. And then my two sisters are eight and six years older than me. And I was kind of conceived because my mother believed that if she had another child, and if it was a boy, that that little boy would save the marriage that was falling apart. And I think from the day I was born, mum rejected me. She really wanted a boy and she made that known to me, right throughout my life, that if I was a boy, I was I would have saved the marriage that her life would have been different.   Rodney Olsen  That's a really hard burden to carry for a young child. And what was the other siblings? Like at this stage? How would they coping with the things that were going on in the family,   Samantha Jackel  My brother moved out very young, and my other two sisters, they hung around for as long as they had to, and then they moved out as well. I mean, it was an uncomfortable setting. My mum did leave my father when I was quite young. So when I was around six, she moved us from a country town on one side of Victoria to the other side of Victoria to another country town, and just kind of moved straight in with another guy and my oldest siblings found that very difficult because it was mashing two families together. And it certainly wasn't The Brady Bunch or what you imagine, you know, from, from television that coming together, they the two families did not mesh together very well. So my siblings moved out of home as soon as they could.   Rodney Olsen  And your stepfather? What was he like?   Samantha Jackel  Yeah, he was a lovely man, a gentlemen, not really prepared for what he was going to be taking on with, you know, with my family. But I have amazing memories of him fond memories of my stepfather. He was always incredibly kind to me very loving, and very accepting of me. Unfortunately, my mother as, as they spent more and more time together, my mother turned to alcohol because she had this void in her life. So my father, my stepfather, really tried to avoid her sorry, he would go to bed very early before she started ranting and would be out of the house very early in the mornings. And I guess at that point, the rants were left to me to handle.   Rodney Olsen  And at this stage, you're seeing that relationships between adults are always fractured, which is not a great base to build from, is it?   Samantha Jackel  No. And absolutely, you know, I did have a friend that I used to go to her house all the time, a Christian friend from school, and I would notice her parents not arguing or yelling, it was kind of a really weird space to be in to see her parents interacting differently. And it felt good. So when I would go home, and what my norm was, you know, I started as a kid wondering, you know, Why are my parents like this? And why is her parents like that? and wanting more and more in my own heart, my parents to be more like her parents.   Rodney Olsen  You mentioned that right from the time that you were born because you weren't a boy. There was this resentment towards you. How did that play out in the subsequent years?   Samantha Jackel  I think it started off at a very young age. My mom was a very manipulative lady, and she had manipulated the situation. So I learned much later on in life that she called me Samantha because my father couldn't pronounce the word. He would say 'Samanfa', he couldn't get the 'th' and so he actually shortened my name to Sarman, s a m a n, because he couldn't get that 'th' out. But I was told that it was because he was in denial that I was a girl. And he couldn't bring himself to acknowledging that I was a girl. So he would call me Saman. And so from a very young age, you know, my mom used the fact that I was a girl to manipulate me to emotionally blackmail me, you know, she would say, you know, if you're a boy, your father would have loved us more, and you want to save the marriage. And I just grew up with that. So I actually found that it was much later in life, like in my 20s, that I realized that it wasn't my fault that that marriage broke down. My brother who was a I grew up believing that I destroyed the marriage because I wasn't a boy. And because she had so many webs of manipulation and deception in our family. They all believed her too. So it wasn't until we were in our 20s, when we sat down and talk that we realize that what had been said and how stupid it was, you know, our eyes were kind of open, hang on, you know, a child's not going to destroy the marriage. Now, just because you were a girl, that it was already destroyed. There was already problems that wasn't you that caused the problems.   Rodney Olsen  And again, we see this pattern so often in in all sorts of abuse, whether it be emotional abuse, or physical abuse, or whatever, that the victim is often blamed. And we see there's blame for something that the victim has no control over, you had no control over. Whether you would be born as a boy or a girl. And yet you're being blamed for that. This seems to be the way of manipulation of so many abusers.   Samantha Jackel  That's right. And then what happens is, you become an incredibly guilty, so then you you are constantly working out of this place of guilt. So I became an incredible people pleaser, I would do anything my mother asked and protect her because I felt so guilty that I had destroyed her life, my mom and then would take it to a new level. And so I you know, I would do anything at all to protect her to look after her lie, I would tell her stories. That emotional abuse then with my mother turned into a sexual abuse, which we don't often hear about, but it is actually way more common than we know. And then outworked in that. And again, I would protect my mom, you know that she was a good mom that she loved me that she showed me love. Even though I ruined her marriage, she still loved me. And she still was taking care of me. And I didn't deserve that, that he she was giving me everything she had, even though I was the worst child in the world. And I'm talking about an eight year old, you know, a seven year old processing this and thinking through it and really truly believing that my place in my life was to make my mum feel better.   Rodney Olsen  At what age did this sexual abuse from your mother begin?   Samantha Jackel  I'm not really sure when it began, and I'm not really sure the exact time it finished, I can just remember, it didn't happen anymore. And that would have been probably around the age of early teens where I suddenly realized our mum isn't asking me to come into her bedroom at night, or I'm not getting undressed in front of her. But I actually can't pinpoint exactly when I just know it kind of disappeared, because you got to understand, in some ways that was my normal. The only time I thought it was abnormal is when I would go to my friend's house and her parents, I would say to her, do you sleep with your mom? And she would be like, no, there would be times I think I'll wonder why she doesn't. But again, my mother would lay it on really heavy on me the fact that, you know, I owed her my life because I destroyed her marriage and I had destroyed her life by being a female. So, you know, I needed to look after her and she would manipulate me you know, she would keep me up late at night and say, you'll be the one that wheels me off the cliff. When I get old. You'll be the one that destroys my life. You're the one that's gonna throw me in the home and, and throw away the key and as a little kid, you know, I'd be there begging her No, mom, I'd never do that for you. I love you. I know that I hurt you. You know, when I was born, I hurt you and I am not a boy. But I tried to be a boy and and I was you know as quite a tomboy or tried to be to place her.   Rodney Olsen  I mentioned in the introduction that even during this traumatic childhood, there were moments that held hope out to you. Maybe you can tell me about one or two of those instances where you start to see a glimmer of hope and obviously one of them was visiting your friend and noticing that. Uh huh. There is something that's different, but I know that there were a couple of others.   Samantha Jackel  My friend Heidi, she was incredible and her family and they really didn't know what was going on in my home. But they introduced me to church and to God and to a whole different world. So on Sunday, they would drive down, we lived in a housing complex, it was full of a lot of domestic violence. And so it was kind of brave for them to come down sometimes into our area that would come down or pick me up and take me off to church or Sunday school, and then they would take me off to youth group when I got older. And so I knew there was a god. And I knew there was a love out there that came from God. And I had accepted Jesus, you know, God showed up in some incredible ways for me, even though it didn't take away from the abuse. And I think the time that stands out, in my mind the most words when I was 13, and, and life was really, really bad at this point, when mom was keeping me up to midnight, shouting at me and making me choose between her and my stepfather. And if I didn't choose the right one, she was going to commit suicide and, and so one day, I was just desperate. And I had saved up some money. And I had ridden my bike down the street and try it on these beautiful pair of pants, and they were purple. And I thought to myself, I'm going to buy them which normally I'd give it any money I had to my mother. So I felt very guilty that I was going to spend it on myself. And I tried these pants on and they were way more than my $6. So I lay by them thinking that maybe I'd be able to get the money or perhaps mum would do something and buy them for me and I rode my bike home. And our street, like I said, was full of domestic violence. So there was always yelling or cars burning off, there's always noise in our street. And this day, I was out the back of our yard swinging on a swing and the door was banged on. And my mom screamed at me, you know, to get the door. So I ran through the house to the front door, and no one was there. And the street was dead quiet. There was not a car inside, there was no kids playing there was no parents yelling, it was just dead quiet. I looked down. And right there was this paper bag, and on it had my name and I opened it up. And there was the pair of purple pants I had tried on in the morning. And I just remember feeling this incredible, like love is something I can't describe or articulate. I've jumped on my bike and I ride straight back down to the store. And I asked the woman you know, can you tell me? I came in I lay by these? Can you tell me who picked them up? And she looked at me and she said you did you came back in and pick them up? And I said No, I didn't. And she said, Yes, she did. And I walked out of there, not understanding what had happened. But understanding that there must be a God that loved me so so much that he would give me a pair of purple pants. And then many years later, I went back and I visited all those church friends. And I asked them, did you ever buy me these pants or not one of them did, I still to this day have no idea who paid for those pads. So if it was an angel that was like, look like me, that I know at that specific time that just showed me this incredible love of a father for a daughter of this God that was so big, and it didn't take away from the abuse, and the abuse didn't just disappear, but it gave me this sense that someone loved me so deeply. Something loved me so deeply. Why more deeply than my mother did. And my stepfather. At that stage.   Rodney Olsen  You mentioned that your siblings moved away from home as soon as they could. When did that start to happen for you? When did you start to look towards leaving that home?   Samantha Jackel  I was the opposite. I didn't want to leave the home because I thought that if I left the home, what right? Would I have to leave home? What right? Would I have to leave my mother? I owed her my life. So why would I leave her? You know, that would be incredibly selfish. And it wasn't until I was 18. And I had gone off to a three month Bible course. And through that time mom would constantly write me letters and tell me what a dreadful child I was because I had left her and how dare I do this. And I had been supported by a pastor to go out and do that three month course, because he knew something wasn't right at home. And I got back from that course and moved back in with my mom and it got really chaotic. And that pastor and his wife saw that how chaotic it was and often needed move in with them. And I said yes. And then I'd say no. And then I'd say yes and would plan a date and I would tell my mom, and then she would tell me you know that she was going to kill herself. She was going to I now have a half sister. She was going to kill my half sister. She was going to kill my stepfather if I moved out. So I'd ring the pastor and say I can't move in I'd make up all kinds of excuses. And then one day, it got to a point where I ran around to their home, my pastor and his wife in tears, banged on their door and told them that I couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't live with her. And they basically gave me an ultimatum and said, you know, if you don't move in on Monday, the offer's off the table, we're not going to offer our home to you. So you either have to move in, or you're not. And that was probably the hardest thing I've ever heard the toughest love I've ever been shine. But it put me in a position where I had to make that decision. And I did on that Monday, I packed up my room or my what I had, I only had a few clothes. And I moved in with my pastor and his wife. It was amazing. You know, it was hard. My mother actually then would ring him with a pastor and abuse him. And he took a lot that family took out a lot taking me in. But it was a step to freedom. It was a step getting out of her shadow, it was a step from getting out of her control,   Rodney Olsen  You've moved from this abusive situation into a much more loving situation and we'd like to think that everything just goes in the right direction but it's not always the way. What happened at that point.   Samantha Jackel  Look, I think I moved to Melbourne, I moved out of that country town and as far away as I could from my mother, I moved in with another family up here I attended a church in the inner city of Prahran. Got involved in church met a guy in church, fell in love. Now I had promised myself as a young child that anyone I kissed I was going to marry because I felt like that was the only sacred part of my body was my lips. That's the problem is I still haven't dealt with anything from my past, I've just now changed, I basically taken on a whole new personality. No one knew where I came from, never talked about my past, I was just a country girl probably lied a little bit about where I came from a rich family in the country or something like that, to different people. And I was never, I never lied to hurt them, but to cover up my past. So I was just so devastated and embarrassed. I didn't want anyone to know what it looked like. Eventually, that guy that I was dating, asked me to marry him. And I said yes. And he did Kiss me. And then as our engagement progressed, he started seeing cracks in my personality. And he wanted to meet my folks. And I was, I did not want him to meet my family. He was a bit confused about that. And while he did meet my mom, and it was a horrendous kind of introduction. She wasn't on her best behavior at all. And I remember traveling from the country back to Melbourne with him in silence, not knowing what to say to him. And from that point, our relationship started to deteriorate. And he didn't know why. And he tried everything he could. So he called off the engagement and said, Sam, you know, I don't think we can get married, you know, I don't think I can marry you. And he was from a broken family. So he did not want to enter into another, you know, into a marriage that could possibly break. He wanted it to be forever. So we kind of broke off her engagement stayed friends, and eventually, our friendship turned into a sexual relationship just once. And we told our leadership, and after that I actually told him that I was pregnant, he decided he would marry me. And then three weeks before our wedding day, I told him I miscarried our baby. And he still felt that he needed to honor his promise to marry me. And so we got married three months after I told him I was pregnant,   Rodney Olsen  You've learned from your mom that you need to carry some sort of facade so that people will like you and you carry this now into a marriage relationship. This must be an incredible burden that you're continuing to carry.   Samantha Jackel  Yeah. And I had learned from my mom the very art of manipulating and lying, I solely believe she didn't necessarily want to hurt anyone. But she didn't know how to do life herself. And I had learned the same art how to manipulate, not to hurt anyone else. But to save myself to put up a good front for myself. And so to carry that into a marriage, that was how, you know, I would sit up to early hours of the morning screaming at Peter telling him all kinds of things running out of the house at you know, midnight 2am and not coming back to early hours and then apologizing and then would go through it the next night. He didn't know what was going on. You know, he had no idea how to handle me at times he thought he was going to have to get me assessed because he just didn't know what to do with me and and then I realized that perhaps if I could tell him the truth of our marriage, that would make things better. So, I was about nine months in and I rang our leadership of the church and said, I needed to talk to them and then rang Peter and said, Would you meet with me to talk with the leadership of our church, and he didn't know why. And he thought it was another game I was playing. And so we met with our leadership, I met with our leadership of our church first, and I said to them, I actually was never pregnant. And I would never miscarried a baby, it was a lie. And they were stunned, as you could imagine. And then Peter came in. And I then told him the same Peter, I was never pregnant. I never miscarried your baby, I just wanted you to marry me, he literally just got up in that meeting, and stormed straight out the door. And I really didn't see him and for another nine months, and the church didn't know what to do with me, you know, it was 1988, that he they have a young girl like 21 year old now, that had lied not only to her husband, but to the whole entire church, you know, that she lied, that she was pregnant, and then that she had miscarried, they didn't know what to do with me. So they suggested that I go and visit another church, and maybe get another group of friends and leave Peter at the church to heal. And so that's basically what happened. And I found myself very alone in our apartment, not knowing what to do with nobody.   Rodney Olsen  And at the same time, that being able to tell the truth was the right thing to do. You've grown up not telling the truth, and you've been able to protect yourself. And suddenly, when you tell the truth, the world starts to collapse around you, you must have started to have doubts about this truth telling thing.   Samantha Jackel  It was so confusing, I didn't understand. And I didn't understand what the big deal was, you know, I really had no concept, that Peter was hurt, like, why are you hurt? Like, I don't understand why this hurt you. I had no concept of all how big the lie was, and what the consequences of that lie was going to be. If I had even thought that he was gonna leave me, I would not have told him, You know, I would probably have carried it on. But in the same, it was kind of this feeling that now that I had told the truth, you know, instead of him riding along on a white horse to save me, not only did he desert me, but the whole church deserted me and I couldn't run home. I was could never tell my mother that my marriage had failed. So I was stuck, stuck by myself to try to work it out.   Rodney Olsen  So you starting to repeat patterns that happened right from your early childhood, those early childhood memories were of all those arguments, and then your dad eventually leaving, and you're seeing the whole pattern play out over again. What was that doing to you internally,   Samantha Jackel  I didn't see the pattern was only many years later, I saw that pattern. In fact, I would sit out as nothing like my mother Back then, I would have said that my allies are very different. I was in complete denial that I was anything like her. But I think more I was just in this incredible pain. And it was a pain I'd never felt. See through my childhood, everything seemed normal, you know, even though I'd be in anguish at night, and I'd climb into bed crying and sobbing because of what mum was doing, or I would beat myself up. Because what she was doing, it was a pain that I didn't understand what this pain was different. It was like, here, I was thinking that I had a church family and that life was different. And suddenly I lost everything. And I was alone. I always had my mum there when I was a kid. So the pain was very different. This was a real isolation, just a yearning to be accepted and loved. And realizing that I probably was never going to be accepted or loved in this world.   Rodney Olsen  How did things start to turn around for you at that point? Okay,   Samantha Jackel  it took a long time. I remember getting a call from Peter and him saying he wanted to come and see me and we made a time. And he came around and I thought he was actually going to hit me. I thought he's just gonna come in and he's gonna just beat me up. I hadn't seen him. I hadn't spoken to him. Now, in all of this, his father was this incredibly gentle man. And every week his father would put a check under the door of our flat for me to be able to pay my bills, because Peter had just wiped his hands clean of me. I just thought he's found out maybe that he's dad's been supporting me and he's going to go through the roof. What is he going to say? And he came back and he knocked on the door and I had a girl living with me at the time and he said, You need to kick her out. And I'm moving back in. I don't know what's going to happen. But the Lord has spoken to me and he had had this conversation with a leader base. The leader said You have no right to divorce Sam. And he didn't like that at the time. But then he was led to Joshua. And in Joshua, it talks about Joshua making a treaty with the Gibeonites under deception. And the Lord made Joshua honor that. And so Peter was like, okay, Lord, I'll honor my vow to Sam, but I don't know what that's gonna look like. So I really don't love her. He moved back into our unit and slept in the spare bedroom, and I slept in the main room, we lived together. And that's really what it was, was living together, there was no communication between us, I was holding down a part time job was just three hours a day, I'd get home from that. And I would just go ballistic and him and scream at him and tell him, you know, he was useless. And I didn't love him being in the house, I hated him being in the house, and he was invading my privacy. And one day, I got home from work. And I just remember feeling this tense, anger towards him, like I could kill him. And I had shaking hands, and they were hot. And I thought I could just kill this guy, and walking into his bedroom. And he was praying for me. And I thought that was just ludicrous. Like, why would you be praying for me, and just going off at him walking out of his room and slamming the door shut and going into the kitchen. And Peter came in. And he had had just enough, he had a gut full like, of my slinging matches with him. And he just came in. And he's, he says, and he writes is in my book, that all he could think of is rebuking me in Jesus name, because he didn't know what else to do. So he just came into the kitchen I was facing the other way. So it was to my back. And he said, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. And I remember at that point, feeling like something was gonna burst out of me. And I remember turning around in this incredible voice, I could hear the voice but not control and tell him in not so many kind words where to go. And that was it for him. He said, there was this relief that came over him, because he suddenly realized there's a spiritual element to what's going on here. And that I can deal with. And from there, we kind of sat down and talk that we come down, he sat down and chatted to me and said, Sam, I actually think that you need deliverance, I think that you have some really deep wounds, and the enemy has come in and taken advantage of those deep wounds. And I think that's what the problem here is. And I still hadn't shared with him about what happened in my childhood. So he was still completely in the dark about my mom and my dad, other than he had met them and thought they were weird. But other than that, he didn't really understand the depth of the abuse.   Rodney Olsen  So going from something that seemed to be just following a pattern that came out of your family of origin. Even though Peter didn't know about this stage, he realized that there was something going on there from this weird family that he had made. Yeah, to now realizing that there's something deeper going on, there's something spiritual going on. How quickly Did you accept what he was saying? Or were you still saying no, no, I'm okay.   Samantha Jackel  Look, I listened to him. And it took a little while for me to understand what he was saying. And he asked me some questions. He said, Sam, have you ever been abused? All through my childhood? I was asked the same question that they always targeted my stepfather. Does your stepfather touch you in inappropriate ways? You know, and I would always defend in a way, you know, I love the guy, he would never do that. But no one ever asked about mom. So there was no questions about mom, so I never had to talk about it with Peter. When he started asking me, I said, well known, you know, my stepfather didn't harm me at all, or my stepbrothers nor my siblings never did. And he said, Have you ever been abused? Has anyone touched you in appropriately and now we had a babysitter, a girl babysitter that did it sexually abused me as well. And so I told him about that. And then from that, I started telling him about what would go on in the bedroom with my mom, you know, that started snowballing. And I'd tell him about all of the things that happened. It was like I had permission to talk. And I guess at that very point, because he had come back, I I trusted him enough that he wasn't going to leave again, that was at this feeling that he wasn't going to just run out on me again. And I'm not sure if that was just God, covering me for that moment. So I just I started telling him things that had to happen. And one of the things that happened was when I was young, I had so much pain in my heart that I remember screaming out at the top of my voice, God, if you love me, and if you get me out of this situation, I'm going to follow you for the rest of my life, Satan or the devil, if you get me out of this situation, then I will commit my whole entire life to you. I don't care who gets me out of this situation, just get me out. So I was telling Peter that and he says, he's just looking at me wide eyed and saying, Sam, we need to pray for you. We need, you need to pray for you, you know, you need to start learning scripture. And so he started making me memorize scripture. And it was so hard, you know, it was like falling on deaf ears. I just couldn't remember I'd read it. And then I'd forget it. Luke 10:19. You know, I was trying to where it says that I have authority to walk on snakes and, and I'd be trying to read it, and it would just fall apart. And I'd be like, what does that scripture say again, and he would be like, you just read it. And I'd be like, I don't know what it said. And so he realized, you know that there was a lot at play here. So we worked for around three weeks, training me up and getting me to learn scripture, understand scripture, understand God more, understand what Jesus actually did for me on the cross. And then from there, he's began to pray for me.   Rodney Olsen  And I guess at this stage, a burden is starting to lift even though you're not quite there, you're finally able to tell the truth. And finally telling the truth is actually having a more positive effect. What was the result of that praying for you? How did that begin to turn things around,   Samantha Jackel  Look it completely turned things around. But it wasn't a one prayer one day, you know, it wasn't like I got a prayer. And then life was beautiful again. But Peter did pray when over three days, and I was delivered of many different spirits, actually, that had permission to come into my life that I had allowed to enter in. And I knew I had through different ways of different prayers, or asking the enemy to help me at different times. So we went through that, and after that, I actually felt empty. I felt like I had to articulate but it was like I had been completely cleaned out. And suddenly, I didn't even know who I was. All the games had played for the entire time of my life. 22. Now I am, I suddenly had no idea who I was, I didn't know what I liked what I didn't like what I thought was humorous, what I didn't think was humorous, how to love. And so after that period of prayer, I went into counseling, it was through those many, many counseling sessions that went on for a few years of rebuilding and understanding who I was, and who I was in God, it was a Christian counselor, a beautiful, beautiful, older lady. She just walked me through, you know, my childhood, what happened, and it was an incredible place to feel safe, to be able to tell her everything. And to have her just gently work me through that and allow me to process what was going on, but also enable me to be in a safe place to be who God created me to be, you know, to understand who I was, you know, what I did enjoy what I did think was funny, and what I didn't think was funny, or, you know, even the point of how I spoke, I changed with whatever my mother wanted me to change. So she wanted me to be a boy than I put on a tom boy voice, you know, and I would play the game really well with her. So it was undoing all of those years of training as a kid, and discovering who I was, while Peter was patiently waiting, and watching and walking with me through that.   Rodney Olsen  Now someone listening might think, well, that's great. This counseling has helped you to break old habits, and break old patterns, and to start to build up new patterns. But there is something deeper in that isn't there. There's something as you mentioned, that he discovered that there's something spiritual going on, that needed to happen spiritually, rather than just resetting patterns.   Samantha Jackel  The first thing we had to deal with was the spiritual stuff, which was deliverance, I had deliverance. So I had to be set free of all kinds of things, you know, of guilt, a spirit of guilt, I had all these different things that I needed to deal with. And then I had to also release forgiveness to people. And I think it was until I started to realize that Jesus had forgiven me by going to the cross that I had to then also forgive those others. And that was a real tough one, you know. I mean, the deliverance in itself was amazing because I had a spirit of hatred and that Spirit had outworked itself, by me self harming. I didn't necessarily hate other people, but I hated myself. And so I would begin to self harm and Peter would come home sometimes and find me in a cupboard with a black eye or he might find my body scratched up and he didn't understand what was going on at the time. Until he began to pray. And he realized, and when he started scratching around that I had this spirit of self hatred that had come in. And it was something I could never control, I would try to control and maybe some of your listeners have felt this way you, you feel like you've want to get it under control, but it's out of your control, you're unable not to do it. And for me, that was a spirit. And once that left, I was set free, and suddenly I had control of my actions. And suddenly, I didn't want to actually hurt myself, then the Lord then began to come into that area and heal it. And suddenly, I could actually see myself in a new light and begin to love who God had created.   Rodney Olsen  It's one thing to learn how to forgive others as as you did. I'm wondering about accepting that forgiveness, because you mentioned that you didn't even understand way back when you had told that lie about being pregnant. You didn't even understand how that could have hurt Peter. And yet, here he is, he's he's forgiving you for that and helping you to find new life. What was it like for that side of forgiveness for you?   Samantha Jackel  It was hard to accept that, that forgiveness, because of the guilt, you know, you felt guilty that you had done that to someone when your eyes when my eyes were open, when the blinders came off, I suddenly realized all i devastated you, you know, I, I gutted. And it took me a long time to actually come to a place of being able to accept His forgiveness. And again, the more I understood, Jesus, and his forgiveness for me was the more I could then accept forgiveness, and forgive myself, I think, often we don't forgive ourselves for the things we do now there are consequences to our sin or the consequences to the things we do wrong. And there are consequences to what I did wrong. No, I did have to go back and apologize to the leaders of the church and, and I had to live with the fact that some people for many years didn't trust me, you know, I didn't have any runs on the board. And so it took a while for people to trust me, that was just the consequences of my sin. But the Lord renewed me and I could live with those consequences. And I didn't blame myself because of that forgiveness that I had from, you know, it sounds cliche, but I really felt the forgiveness of Christ. And out of that I could forgive others. But I could also receive forgiveness, where I didn't come under that guilt and shame of what I did   Rodney Olsen  You've forgiven a lot of people during this time but that doesn't always mean that things are smoothed over or that things go well, what was your relationship like with your mother after that time of forgiveness?   Samantha Jackel  I truly thought I forgive my mom. And she had now started to show signs of alcohol induced dementia. You know, I truly thought that I was at this place of being able to love my mother, and I have forgiven her for what she had done to me. And then just one day, I remember sitting beside my mom, and I felt the Holy Spirit, I felt this, this word in my mind, share Jesus with your mom. I then just felt this anger, like and I'll be honest, I thought she deserves to burn in hell. I had to leave that leave her. And I went home and it just kept going over, you know, you're meant to love her. But I want her to burn in hell, I don't want it to be in heaven. That was the last place she doesn't deserve that. And I so I kind of pushed it to the side. And then I would go back in the visitor and this again, it's the Holy Spirit right? In my mind, share me with your mother. And I would be like, no way am I doing this? Eventually, I went to counseling, I got advice about I talked to Peter and I was just angry, like, No, I don't want to I the interesting thing here is that I think God is such a gentleman, and he doesn't push us into things that we can't handle or that we're not ready for. So it wasn't like the minute that I said no to her that God gave up on me. But he just gently kept reminding me, you know, keep putting it in my mind. You know, I'd tell her about me, sir. And so one day I was sitting next to her and and at this point, she wasn't really communicating much and she was kind of sometimes she would remember things sometimes she wouldn't. And so I said to her mom, I just want to share with you about Jesus. You know, if you don't love Jesus, you won't be going to heaven. I made it really simple. And I was holding her hand and said if you want to know Jesus Mom, I can pray with you right now you to squeeze my hand and I will share you know I'll say a prayer with you and you know, then you're going to meet Jesus one day and and you're going to have peace in your heart and your life will be the way he wanted it to be. You know, you're going to be dancing with him in heaven. Anyway, she squeezed my hand. And I remember just this overwhelming sense that I was about to lead my mom through a prayer of a prayer of salvation. And as I was praying for her to stop this incredible weight off my shoulders, I've suddenly realized that now I have forgiven you. Now, I have this overwhelming love that the Father has for you. And I truly do forgive you for what you've done. done to me. And, and you know, from that point on, there was this amazing feeling in my heart that I was free, I was free from all that past. And it doesn't mean I forgot anything, I didn't forget anything from my past. But I was free from the pain of the past. And you know, one of my beautiful thoughts are when the Lord calls me home, I will actually be able to embrace my mother, in a relationship that was always meant to be mother and daughter, and that will both be dancing before the throne room of God.   Rodney Olsen  I wonder if there are people listening right now who a yearning for that kind of freedom from the past from past hurts, and perhaps would want to get in touch with you or to read your book, where is the easiest place to find your book or to get in touch with you,   Samantha Jackel  Probably on my website, which is www.mypurplepants.com, I have an email up there, and people are more than welcome to email me and I am the only one that reads those emails. And you can buy my book up there, either hard copy, or you can get it on Kindle. The link is on my web page or connect with me through Facebook. And that can be through My Purple Pants, on Facebook or personally. But I'm happy to connect with whoever needs a hand because I know to have someone walk with you. And it is a hard road to walk with someone that's been abused. It's not a one week walk or a day commitment. It is a lifetime commitment to walking with someone. And I understand that. And I am happy to walk with people through their journey and, and encourage them and help them along the way. And most importantly, pray for them. You know, I have a book. And whenever I go to speak, or I'm contacted by someone, I always write their names in my book. And I bring that book before the Lord and pray over them, pray for their lives, that God would transform them heal them. And they would know what it's like to have the joy of the Lord as being their strength.   Rodney Olsen  And I will put links so that people can find you find your website, Facebook, and your email address as well as being able to buy that book. That's all going to be in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet. I want to fast forward just before we finish up, I want to fast forward to what life is like for you these days. How is life traveling for you?   Samantha Jackel  Yeah, life is amazing. Peter and I have been married 33 years in October this year. We have five adult children who all loved Jesus, which is just a blessing in itself. We're pastors of a church here in Melbourne in Carnegie, we are just a family of believers that just have seen God transform a life and my kids know my story of my story, of course, and our story is a couple. And I believe you know that there's so much blessing in that decision Peter made to come back to me that he was a righteous man. Remember, he was only 23 back then. And he made this righteous decision to come back and honor his wedding vows. And through that there's been such blessing and I believe our kids are the product of that blessing. And so life is great. It doesn't mean we don't have hard times. That doesn't that doesn't mean we don't have battles every now and then. But we have seen certainly seen the goodness of God over our lives, our marriage and over our children.   Rodney Olsen  Samantha, it has been such a delight to hear your story to hear about the transformation that has happened in your life and that is available for others. As I mentioned, if people want to get in touch, I will put details in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net. But thank you so much for your time.   Samantha Jackel  Thanks for allowing me to share my story.   Emily Olsen  Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net  

If you’re battling addiction, or know someone who is, today’s episode is not only the story of Craig Brown and his recovery, there are some really practical steps to move towards healing and wholeness. Craig Brown's life became marred by pain, shame and distraction. Now in his book, Stop Hiding, Start Healing, he uses his own experience and talks about more than 20 years of helping others discover how to be free from the pain and shame of their past.   https://www.stophidingstarthealingbook.com/ https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Hiding-Start-Healing-Discover/dp/B08PJPWLGT https://www.facebook.com/craigbrownstophidingstarthealing  https://www.facebook.com/craig.brown2       (This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)   Emily Olsen  Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.   Rodney Olsen  Thanks for listening. You can follow Bleeding Daylight and connect to our social media channels by following the links at bleedingdaylight.net Please share Bleeding Daylight episodes and leave a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts.   If you’re battling addiction, or know someone who is, today’s episode is not only the story of my guest and his recovery, there are some really practical steps to move towards healing and wholeness. He was the son of a minister, but he struggled to connect with his father. Instead, Craig Brown's life became marred by pain, shame and distraction. Now in his book, Stop Hiding, Start Healing, he uses his own experience and talks about more than 20 years of helping others discover how to be free from the pain and shame of their past. It's my honor to welcome him to bleeding daylight. Craig, thank you so much for your time.   Craig Brown  Rodney, thank you great being with you.   Rodney Olsen  That early search for identity is often so vital in setting us up for success in life. And your search was difficult. Tell me about those early years for you.   Craig Brown  I grew up in the church, my father was a minister. I have two older sisters. And the three of us always had to be on we had to make Father Brown looked at. I'm sure you've heard about preachers, kids and their reputations depending on the denomination. But I lived up to mine, it was a very difficult role. For me to play starting in my again, when I was born, all the way up through my youth and young adult life and into my adult life. Everything about our family was about making our father look good. What I saw from the pulpit was not what I experienced behind closed doors. My dad had his own demons that he had to struggle with, we saw a lot of anger. My parents marriage was never, we never really witnessed true nurturing love between the two of them. And as a youngster, when we would be blamed for a lot of things that were not our fault, our Father tended to rage out and take it out on myself and my sisters. And as a result, yeah, as we all do, when we're younger, we develop coping mechanisms and coping skills to deal with the hurt, the shame, the pain, the abandonment and I developed those early on. I mean, when the pain and the shame presented itself, and I, you know, I found that escape route. I kept that for most of my life, until I became honest and took responsibility and started dealing with that later on in life. My mother was the typical pastor's wife enable her, make her husband look good, make sure the family was on. And that was just unfair pressure put on young people that you know, like, like us, as a result that was just searching, you know, my father, and I didn't really have a relationship, I can count on one hand, the number of things he and I did father and son, and I'd have fingers leftover, he just didn't seem to be invested in my life or interested in my life. My identity was their identity, his identity, and I didn't have one till much later on in life. And as a result, I just suffered from that, instead of buckling down and proving that I could do something with my life, I took the easy route. And that is searching for, you know, something that would accept me and something I could participate in. Unfortunately, I made very, very poor decisions, and ended up in the drug world and the drug life and a life of destruction.   Rodney Olsen  So your father is effectively teaching you about this double life, because you're seeing him one way in the church and a different way at home. And you're learning that too, because you're you're trying to deal with what's going on at home. But at church, you're the perfect little saint. So this must cause conflict right from the beginning within yourself. It did.   Craig Brown  Oh, yeah, it's very confusing. Now, I must say, the life of the church was I loved it, dealing with, you know, with all the adults and getting the attention. I really, truly enjoyed growing up that environment. And that's one thing. But, you know, from a spiritual discipline, and finding out about, you know, God's love, Grace, mercy, I'm sure it was there, and the seeds were planted. It wasn't till much later in life, that that fruit began to bloom and I became, you know, a much different person. I just look back at that. And, you know, it's easy for me to say on this end, that I wouldn't change a thing. And I wouldn't, because it's what you know, everything I am today is a result of that pain, my deepest pain. You're right, it was trying to find that identity and trying to find that mission, trying to find that purpose. And it was hard to do in that dysfunctional environment. And I deal with this all the time in ministry, and that is when we're growing up, we think our families, the perfect family, we don't know any better, until well, afterwards, we look back and realize, Wow, man, how did I survive that? And that's essentially what I the attitude I had.   Rodney Olsen  And I've spoken to a lot of my guests about this. In our growing up years. We just know what we know. We know that family life, and it's a matter of eventually realizing this isn't normal. So when did that Penny drop for you that The the way you grew up was not normal.   Craig Brown  I would say it certainly wasn't in the midst of my pit of hell experience because that's I was totally in bondage to that. I would say it was well after that, when I had a major epiphany and life change, and I began to inventory my past and embrace my past and deal with my past, that I was able to kind of the scales coming off my eyes, and I realized what I experienced was not normal. As a result, I've got to process that I've got to do with my my father in his role, my mother, her role, our family role, and what that meant to me and the effect it had on me.   Rodney Olsen  You mentioned that you ended up in the world of drugs, and you certainly did very heavily. But I'm wondering how this church boy ends up there, because it doesn't happen all at once. What was the road that took you from being this well behaved child at church and trying to do that at home, even though you weren't getting that connection you were seeking? How did you start that slippery slope towards where it ended up?     The party welcomes everybody, you don't need a membership card, you know, to show ID, you know, it just welcomes everybody in generally, it's those that have no self control, no self discipline, very lack of self worth, low self esteem, just looking to search and searching to fill the void. That is in our life. You see if our family if our family structure if our relationships, if we're if there's not that nurturing, love, support, care, identity, we're going to find it somewhere else, we will find it somewhere. For me, I had a lot of pain and a lot of loss. And I just wanted to medicate that. And as a result, entering into the drug world, it was wide open, and I walked in. It wasn't like I was like, you know, I think I'll go do drugs today. Or I think you know, I just think I'll make a mess of my life today. It's not like that. It's just a progression. And it's one step after the after another. Rodney, here's the thing about addiction, or here's, or drug use, or anything that we use to hide or medicate the pain, we make a decision to. Right, we make a decision. We get so deep into it, that we can't make a decision not to do it. It sounds very simple. But it truly It begins with that first choice. And mine multiplied and I ended up there. But here's the thing, Rodney. Yeah, I look at as I'm in the pit of hell, based on what I my youth and what I am, where I grew up, and how I grew up. Sure. I was looking around going what am I doing here? What am I How did I end up here. But at the same time, it's so engrained in my life and says, and has such a bondage on my life, that I knew no better. And I just continued on that lifestyle until I got to that defining moment in my life where I realized that I can't do this anymore.   Rodney Olsen  And of course, it's not just drugs that can hold us down. There's a whole range of issues. And I want to talk about some of those in a little while too. But you didn't just get involved in drugs in in taking them but you went a lot further into that drug culture, didn't you?     I did. I started drinking in high school just to parties and things like that. And right now is a really good athlete. I should have played college basketball, but I had very little or low self confidence. Everybody else was telling me how good I was. But I didn't believe it. And I really didn't have any support from home. I can count on maybe after four years of playing varsity basketball. My parents, I think came to two games. I mean, I just didn't I had nothing at home. So I should have I should have gone on to play college basketball, but I didn't. But I graduated from high school and I went to college. And it was at college where here's the thing, Rodney, when we're suffering in that family environment, we cannot wait to get out. We cannot wait to be set free. And I did I walked out of the house and I went off to that campus and I rarely went to class I drank I got involved and you know, just that lifestyle. I dropped out of college and came back home. And I started working and the bar business bar and restaurant. And I took a job at a bar in Washington DC and unbeknownst to me, it was owned by the largest cocaine dealer on the east coast  and he was working that drug trade out of that establishment as a 19 or 20 year old Rodney, I've died and gone to heaven. This is just amazing. Cocaine I'm sure you're aware, and the 80s in Washington, DC and all throughout the area and and the country for that matter. Cocaine was everywhere dominated every party scene is dominated every scene where alcohol and everything else is involved, and everybody had it. I wasn't a heavy user before then. But I sure was once I got there. And then I did low level drunk stuff on on the side and stuff like that. His drug business, that was just a major operation, all the who's who would come into this establishment, there was music people, local television, people, athletes, when you have no direction, or mission or purpose in life, and your whole life is the party was just in that in a place. And I operated in that environment. For years. That whole lifestyle dominated my life. And again, as I mentioned earlier, and as you referenced, Rodney, I'm looking, I'm in the middle of this mess, this just pit of hell. And I'm just, you know, I'm asking, I'm partying, but at the same time, I'm saying, How in the world that I get here, because I was in such depression, darkness, denial, pain, shame, guilt, and I just medicated it. I just kept medicating it instead, and I hid.   Rodney Olsen  How was it that you actually came to the point where you decided I'm not going to try and medicate anymore? This is not where life should be going.   Craig Brown  At that time, I did exactly what was the title of my book, stop hiding, start healing. I got to a point, Rodney, and the first chapter of my book is when the pain is greater than your fear. My pain level was at such an elevated level. Again, it was around 1985, I had this epiphany. And here's the kicker of it. From a spiritual standpoint, what we don't realize is that God's hand is on us at all times, at all times. And I didn't realize it at the time, even though I grew up at the church, because I had no relationship with God I, I was so far from it. The pain in my life was so great that I got to a point where I was no longer afraid to make some life changes. And I said to myself, Craig, you're either going to end up dead, Rodney, I had car accidents, I was in the hospital for throwing up blood, you would have thought one of these situations would have gotten my attention. And it didn't. But it led up to this defining moment, where all of that was multiplied. And the pain level was so great, that I realized that if I didn't stop, I was going to end up dead, or continue on this life of destruction, depression, and darkness. And I just made a decision to extricate myself from that pit of hell, from using drugs and alcohol to medicate my pain. And over the course of weeks and months, I was able to stop using drugs and stop drinking. You know, as they say, in recovery, I got clean, I got sober. And my whole life began to change, everything began to change. Honestly, honesty crept in, responsibility crept in. And I was able to change that pit of hell lifestyle, and enter into a period of my life, where I was able to live a healthier lifestyle. But I was still miserable.   Rodney Olsen  So it started with a decision. And we need to start here with that decision. But I imagine for people who have an addiction of some sort, whatever it may be, it's very hard for you to make a decision and then to hold to it, because the addiction keeps calling to you and dragging you back in all the time.   Craig Brown  Yes, yes. Now, I've invested 22 years of my life, serving in Christ centered recovery, helping people and serving and caring for people who experienced or are experiencing exactly what I went through. And it is difficult, but here's the thing. It can happen in your life. Those who are struggling, those who are dealing with addiction, those who are dealing with pornography, shame, guilt, drugs, alcohol, food, codependency, divorce, abortion, whatever it is, that is wreaking havoc on your life, and causing that pain and that shame and that guilt. The good news is You can be set free, when the pain is greater than your fear. folks that are dealing with struggles and issues and life struggles, it's hard to make that decision, it's hard to step out and admit, it's hard to step out and be honest about the struggle because of a number of different things. One, embarrassment, the shame. I mentioned shame a lot, Rodney, because shame comes from the parallel. And it is meant to keep really good people from finding the resources to get well and be set free. Shame is number one, guilt and pain and all the other categories, all the other issues and struggles are there as well. But shame is number one. If the person can get to the point where that pain is greater than the fear, that shame will begin to lessen. They'll enter into an environment where you find safe people, you find people you trust, because people that struggle generally have dysfunctional people, surrounding them, and people that are trying to fix them. And that's not healthy. And it's not what they need. They need people with empathy, people that will listen, people that have been to the pit of hell and back that are there to care for them. Now that can be in a number of different forums, Rodney, whether it's rehab or Christ centered recovery or recovery or AA, find that place where people understand you. And that'll be your first step, you have to admit, first, this My life is unmanageable. And I cannot do this anymore. And I've got to be set free. And that's the defining moment that happened in my life. And it can be the defining moment for your listeners as well.   Rodney Olsen  I'm really interested in you coming back to Faith. Because in your early years, your experience of faith was that you live one way in front of people and a different way behind the scenes. And you must have had those doubts that can this even be real, because my dad's a minister, he's meant to have it all together when it comes to these things of faith. And yet, I don't experience that. So how did your walk back to Faith actually happen?     I'm never Rodney going to discount my experience in the church at my youth, because the Bible is very clear that seeds are planted. And they may sit there for a very long time, before they come to life. Even though I didn't take it in, even though I didn't comprehend it. The denomination I grew up in, it was really tradition. It was more, you know, tradition in the prayer book, this and that. I never ever experienced or learned about a personal relationship with God through Jesus, his son, nothing was really explained to me about that the Bible tells us the only way to the Father is through Jesus, his son. I never knew anything about that, you know, I operated in that church environment, you know, at a very young age. And I do I believe the seeds were planted. As I mentioned earlier, God's hand is on all of us. It's there. And it's a matter of us opening up our heart and saying, God, come in and take over my life, heal me and set me free. And that's essentially what I did. But it wasn't until I was clean for about six or seven years. I hadn't been using drugs I hadn't been drinking. But as I mentioned, I was still miserable. There's a couple of defining moments that I've, I've shared, but the the defining moment was when I received that phone call. My sister called and said, dad's dying, and we need to get to the hospital. Here's a man that I had very little relationship. Now. I loved him. He's my dad. Right? But I had a very challenging relationship with Him. And we weren't the closest. So I am led to his bedside in the intensive care unit, and my father is dying. Here I am. I've been in the pinna, hell, I've made nothing of my life. I felt like a complete failure. And I'm standing there and my whole life came right before my eyes, and I'm looking at my dad struggling to breathe. And I'm sitting here as his son, and I've done nothing with my life. And it just was a reminder to me of how powerless I am and what a failure were the decisions I've made in my life. That led me up to that day. And Rodney that The defining moment in my life, and that is this, when the pain is greater than your fear, you have an opportunity to be set free and change. I realized that here, this man is going to die. And neither of us were able to have the relationship that I longed for. And so the very next day, Rodney, I just cried out to God, I say, God, I've heard of you, I know what you can do. Because I've heard about the testimonies of what you've done in people's lives. I need you to come in and take over my life, because my pain is greater than my fear, I am miserable, take over my life, come in and set me free. From everything I've done in my life, forgive me. And Rodney, it was a miraculous experience, because that lasted for about an hour. And then when I got up, after crying out and praying, which I'd never been instructed to do, and know me, nobody told me how, my life was completely different from that second.   Rodney Olsen  Tell me how it became different. What was that feeling? Because a lot of people will say that they come to that point of accepting Christ and they don't necessarily feel different, but they know that something has changed. And yet other people have an experience by the sounds of it like you have had where there is something physically that is happening, there is something tangible, tell me about that.     The Bible is very clear about when you do you say, God, Jesus, come into my life and take over my life. Now, again, it you've heard it, it's been shared many different ways. Be my Lord and Savior, take over be your lead my life Forgive me, offering forgiveness, confessing. It's very simple. It's so simple. But we make it so complicated. You know, the Bible is very clear, Jesus, come, come set me free. Come take over my life. Be Lord over my life, my pain, my shame, my guilt, my past, my purpose, my mission, all of it, Lord, take it and he did. And so yes, for me, a lot of people think that they make that decision, oh, life's just great. Now, you have to begin to do the work. And what does that mean? It just means you now have the power, the same power that rose Jesus from the grave, you have now received, and it's called the Holy Spirit. So the Spirit begins to live in your soul. The spirit is in your life, your heart, and he wanted to take over your mind. For me. It was miraculous. When I stood up after that hour. My whole perspective on life changed the burden, Rodney, the burden of the pit of hell drug life, the pit of hell pain, the youth of abandonment, the use of blame and shame, everything the burden was lifted immediately. It was miraculous, I don't have enough time to be your guest today to share how deep my pain was. Okay? That was absolutely instantaneous. I, at that moment, began to be honest with myself, I began to confess everything that I had, and believe me, Rodney, this is not a one way thing, where I'm the victim, I was not a victim. I made poor decisions and poor choices. Okay, that led me to where I was, I began to be honest with myself. I then devoured scripture, that day was when my recovery started. And that's when I began to immerse myself in every single principle that God has in this life manual called a Bible, and I apply them to my life. I've been doing that for now, Rodney, for 28 years, my life continues to be on track. Now, I've had some major challenges. Since that day, I've had major, major challenges that I've had to work through that day. But the difference is, I have a power and a strength and a different mindset to get me through it now, versus what I had in the old me.   Rodney Olsen  And what I find interesting is that you say at this stage, you had stopped taking drugs for quite some years. And so you're completely clean for some years, but still miserable. And you say this is the day that your recovery started, the world will often see recovery as being free of drugs. And yet we know that that's not always the case in your recovery started on this day on wondering how soon after you were set free and started that recovering, did you start helping others?     Let me touch on that for a minute Rodney, and that's recovery versus Christ centered recovery, there is a difference. And that is this Rodney recovery began, like AA began back in the 1930s 40s. And it was faith based, they made no apology for the fact that God has a higher power. Now that's been watered down some over the years. But Rodney, there's only one that can fix, he'll change and restore. And that is the Lord God the Father, he's the only one that is able to do that in our life. And so a lot of people enter into recovery with a myopic track to get clean and sober. And that's good. Now there's nothing that that's absolutely should be the goal. But it's not. The end goal is see sobriety and abstinence are the byproduct of doing the work. That's recovery. Now the difference between recovery and Christ centered recovery, and that is this. And this is where relapse, this happens. Often slips happen, often it happens in in all life. Don't get me wrong. Oftentimes, people get into recovery to get clean and sober. And that's but they neglect the catalyst for what got them there. The pain, the shame, the guilt, the the abandonment, the abuse, maybe there was trauma, or physical sexual abuse, emotional abuse that they experienced. And yes, they're clean and sober. But yet, they're still miserable. And that's what happened to me. I was seven years out, great, I was off, no drugs, no drinking of any kind. I was living a healthy lifestyle, but there was something missing. And I was still miserable. So I get to the place where I realized, why am I still miserable? Well, in recovery, it's all about especially Christ centered recovery, it's all going back to discover the root of my sadness, the root of my grief, my shame, my guilt, my pain. And the Bible's very, very clear about that in Scripture, search my heart of God, change my mind, Oh, God. And when you change the mind and the thinking, and then it relates to the heart and healing the heart, you can be on a track of recovery, sobriety, abstinence, and what I call freedom, and be set free, and avoids slips relapse, when you have worked the steps and the principles and apply the principles to your life. And the other thing about recovery is, it's all about developing self awareness. And that's what recovery is all about self awareness, but also not avoiding the warning signs. And also being able to identify the triggers in your life. All of us are triggered every single day, they're everywhere, right. And for people in recovery, you've got to know what they are. If you're struggling with pornography, well, you got you know very well that if you click on that ad, or click on that link, or click it, that's a trigger, that's going to take you that's going to take you right back if you're not careful, or I can just have one drink, or I can just smoke that dope or whatever, you've got to be extremely mindful of your warning signs and triggers in your life. And you're able to do that in recovery, recovery, especially Christ centered recovery is able to uncover, pull back the layers, deal with the things deal with the challenges and the painful things in our life. And once you're able to embrace that and do that, you have a guide and a power, and God that's able to help you.   Rodney Olsen  And you've been helping other people to break free from a whole range of issues. You've touched on a few there. It's not just drugs, as you say. There's a whole range of issues that we can be freed from that cause pain, and misery and especially shame within our lives. Tell me, what's the experience, like when you see someone else come out the other side and be released and become free from whatever it is that's been holding them?   Craig Brown   Oh Rodney, it's amazing. I've been serving for 22 years and Christ centered recovery. Our ministry has helped 1000s of people. And Rodney there are 1000s of testimonies of people. And now people that come to our ministry. They're either Christian believers and non believers or they're, you know, all different walks of life. It's not that you have to have to subscribe to that. I mean, it's totally your choice. God gave us a choice accept me or don't you know, it's dope. Yeah, it's your choice. But anybody can come all are welcome. All are loved unconditionally, all are supported and accepted for who they are, no matter who they are. And they come in there and they sit in that environment where the Scripture and the gospel is being shared and the 12 steps of recovery. It's just absolutely powerful to see someone come in. First of all, it takes a ton of courage, Rodney for some of the steps into a Recovery Environment. That's where I say if the pain is greater than your fear of being known, if the pain is greater than your fear of embarrassment, you're ready to come in. And a lot of people walk through that door with a lot of courage on that first night. And, and I'm a firm believer that healing takes place, and circles. And we offer a lot of small groups, where men can be with other men and women can be with other women, in a safe environment, where nothing, there's no condemnation, what is shared there stays there, fellowship is developed, relationships are developed, accountability is established. And healing begins to take place over weeks and the coming months. So I see Rodney firsthand, the life change, and just going from dysfunction, going from brokenness, to wholeness and brokenness, to happiness. And it's just, it's just what's keep it keeps me going. And it's, it's wonderful to see people be set free, and marriages heal relationships with show their kids healed, relationships, restored, amends being made, hearts being healed, it's just miraculous. It's wonderful to see. And it, it's what keeps me going,   Rodney Olsen  I'm sure that there are people that are going through their own moments of hell, who are thinking, I wish I could be a part of a group like that. But obviously, we're talking to people all around the world. How do we actually find a group like that for ourselves? If, if we're in that situation, how do we find that group of loving people to surround ourselves with to go through this kind of Christ centered recovery,     Our society, as you know, Rodney, it doesn't take it takes seconds to go to Google or some other search engine and put in Christ centered recovery in the search bar, or recovery near me or find a recovery meeting. Now, just a word of caution. Again, I can only speak for the ministry I've been a part of, and I am confident that we're recovery, your shared recovery is done to help others and the motivation is to help other people. But I also tell people to have a really good filter, and very good discernment as to where you are going to go. First of all, there's no perfect church, and there's no perfect environment. But there are environments and churches that have really good structure that have really good guidelines and accountability, and have a really good platform and an offering and a place and a beacon of hope. I don't know if you're familiar with Celebrate Recovery. But that's the ministry that we started 22 years ago at our church and the ministry we've been a part of, and there are celebrate recoveries all over the world. And all you could all you need to do is go on the website, and you can put in Celebrate Recovery, and your listeners could find one, hopefully near them. There's another organization I'm really support. And that's new life ministries, new life ministries, and that's led by Steve Arterburn, a pioneer in Christ centered recovery here in the United States. And he has ministries and networks all over the world as well, your local church or you know, again, a meetings, other meetings that could be that are nearby, it's taking that first step. And you may have to visit a few places, your listeners may have to visit a few places to find that there may be state offerings or resources or county resources or other resources. But there's also Christian counselors and therapists that are available as well. It's about research. And but here's the thing, Rodney, I am more than happy to be a resource for your listeners, if they have any questions whatsoever. They have an open invitation to reach out to me through email or on my Facebook page to send me a direct message or through your website if you'd like it, I would be more than happy and honored to help anybody that was searching, if I could be of a resource to them.   Rodney Olsen  And of course, it brings us full circle to talking about your book as well. Stop Hiding, Start Healing and we're not just here to sell a book. But when you have a resource like that that's available that is going to help to bring healing. We can't help but recommend it to people and so where can people find this book that you've written.     One, you just go to Amazon in the search bar put in Stop Hiding, Start Healing. Put in Craig Brown, Stop Hiding Start Healing  so you can go directly to Amazon or you can go to my website, stophidingstarthealingbook.com, you can purchase the book at either of those.   Rodney Olsen  I know, we've mainly been talking to people who may be going through their own difficulty, their own shame. But I'm also aware that there will be people listening right now who have loved ones who are going through difficult times, whether it be addiction or whatever it might be. How do we actually come alongside those that we love? When they're not ready to make the step? How do we love them? How do we bring them to that point?   Craig Brown  That's a great question. No, I'm so glad you brought that up. Because it's one of the areas of my ministry that brings most heartbreak at times, because you look in the eyes of a mother or father, or a spouse, or a family member or a friend, and you just see the sadness and the grief, because they have tried and tried and tried to get their loved one to get help. But Rodney, it's so important to realize, and parents especially and family members, you must realize that it's not your fault, that that individual who is struggling, made a decision on their own, to put their life in that situation. So many times parents want to take that role of a rescuer. First of all, we have to admit that person is dealing with a very, very troubling lifestyle. And as much as we want to rescue because as parents or loved ones, we all want to rescue, we all want to help. And unfortunately, the hardest part, you have to allow that person to suffer, you have to allow them to get to the point where they realize that their pain is greater than their fear, and they have to get out, or their life is completely unmanageable. And they have to get help, that can be done in a number of different ways. There are organizations and other resources that can help families with intervention. And oftentimes, it takes the average person that is struggling to be confronted something like 57 times before they get agree to go get help. It's just an arduous process for family members and loved ones to help someone that struggling. A lot of times I have to tell people just to get out of the way, get out of the way. They're on a track, right now they are so in denial, they won't listen to anybody. They'll blame family, they'll blame everybody, for their troubles I did years ago, families need to find the right resources that are available. But it's up to that person to have to make the decision to want to go get help. If they don't think they need help. There's nothing anyone can do other than pray for them, support them, encourage them, and be there for them. until they get to that point where they realize they have to go get well.   Rodney Olsen  We're a long way away from that young boy who had such a difficult lifestyle growing up and that difficult relationship with his father. What is life really like for you now for you and for your family? What is your relationship like with your own sons?   Craig Brown  That's a great question. Great, great question. First of all, I've got an amazing wife, we are will be celebrating 28 years of marriage next month. I'm so grateful that I got over that I extricate myself from that total mess of a life before I met my wife and I didn't bring it into the marriage or into my family. We have three sons that are absolutely amazing. I made it a point early on that my relationship with them would be in stark contrast to what I experienced myself with my dad. But I have been brutally honest with my sons. I shared with them. my testimony I shared with them, the struggles that I went through, I shared with them. My being brutally transparent, not sharing details per se, but sharing my pain, shame, guilt, everything that I went through as a catalyst to be there for them as their mentor and their guide and their father who absolutely adores them, who always has their back. You know, I am there to support them in every endeavor. I'm also there to hold them accountable and to be a spiritual leader for them. You know that it started with them. My role as a spiritual leader and I been there for that, Rodney, I still have a bunch of defects I continue to work on, I still, you know, continue in my own recovery, I still continue to work extremely hard to getting better at who I am. And as a result, they know my defects and they're very and, you know, I am not perfect as an I've told them that my dad apologized to me once in my entire life. Like I've lost count of the number of times where I have had to confess, or share or ask forgiveness from my son's for my attitude or approach or what have you. But like for me, right now I am in an amazing season of life, Rodney, and it's all due to the grace of God, it truly, truly is. If you knew me, back then Rodney, and saw me today, you would be absolutely amazed. It's such a difference that the Lord has made in my life and will continue until I'm all used up to care, be there love guide others that have been where I've been. And I'll do that until the last day,   Rodney Olsen  Craig, what I love about your story is that it's not just your story. But it's the story of 1000s that you've been able to help with God's help, obviously. And that's part of the story that is in Stop Hiding Start Healing  the book that you've written, and that's going to be a help for many, many more people, I'm sure it's going to be a help for those who are going through their own difficulties as well as those who love those who are caught in addiction or, or whatever it may be. So if people want to get a hold of that you mentioned before where they can find it, I will put links in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet, so that people can find the book, but also connect with you, Craig, it has been a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for being so open and honest in sharing your story.   Craig Brown  Rodney, thank you, I just want to commend you. You have a wonderful, wonderful platform. And it's such a beacon of hope to others. And I just pray the Lord's blessings over you and your mission and purpose and all you're doing to help others that may be struggling. And I just encourage your listeners if they are in a tough place in their life, to speak out. Find the right help. And again, allow the Lord in should you so choose to set you free. Thank you my friend. I really enjoyed being with you today. Thank you   Emily Olsen  Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net