Bleeding Daylight

Nalini Tranquim has lived on various continents and brings together several cultures. She’s an artist, author, singer/songwriter, life coach and so much more. Her latest song took 15 years to finish, only being completed in the aftermath of a very dark season for her family where she found herself battling depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. On Bleeding Daylight we’ll delve into some of her story and hear about the constant call on her life that she just couldn’t ignore.
 
Website: https://nalinitranquim.com/
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Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6Q92GI97mfxpVu36LssAlA
 

 Brian Steele is a former cult member who underwent deprogramming by a world renowned expert. Even after his escape from the cult he battled to find acceptance and belonging.
 
These days he’s a pastor and has recently become an author, publishing his first book in a series focussed on one of the parables told by Jesus.
 
He has a passion for people to discover a really real kingdom as described throughout the Christian scriptures.
 
 
Website: https://www.kingdomfieldguides.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kingdomfieldguides
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/briancsteele/
Kingdom Field Guide: https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Field-Guide-Finding-Really/dp/1952602173
Email: kingdomfieldguide@gmail.com
 
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen
Today’s guest on Bleeding Daylight is a former cult member who underwent deprogramming by a world renowned expert. Even after his escape from the cult he battled to find acceptance and belonging. These days he’s a pastor and has recently become an author, publishing his first book in a series focussed on one of the parables told by Jesus. He has a passion for people to discover a really real kingdom as described throughout the Christian scriptures. I’ll introduce you in a few moments.
 
Please remember to connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please also take the time to share this and other episodes through your own social media.
  
Brian Steele has been a corporate executive and a geologist. Life has taken him on many twists and turns. And these days, he's a pastor, and author. We'll explore some of the detours that Brian has taken along the way, as well as looking at his book, The Kingdom Field Guide. Brian, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Brian Steele 
Thank you, Rodney, really glad to join you.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Your book looks at a story that Jesus told about searching for treasure and before we uncover more about the book, maybe we should look at your own search. Can you help me understand a little bit of your search for faith?
 
Brian Steele 
Sure, Rodney, I grew up in a Christian home but in the eighth grade, I sort of washed my hands of it all and decided to to wander and I really wandered far I found myself in some dark places in terms of drug use, and, and even involved in curious and some dark spirituality and in sort of even occultic practices. By the time I got to college, I found myself way underwater and was way over my head, and was actually scared with some of the things that I was involved with. So I had I prayed a short prayer. That was something like Lord save me. It was one of these desperation, prayers. And so the next day after that, I was going to college at the University of California in Santa Barbara. I was on campus, and there were some people there, and they were sharing a gospel message. And I thought, well, this is God, answering my prayer already. The next day, I went to a Bible study invited me to, and I made a commitment to Jesus and started a life of faith but what I didn't know was that the group that I got myself involved with was a cult and I got sucked in. And Rodney, the next three years of my life were a nightmare, not just for myself, but also for the friends and family that that really cared about me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to look at the details of that cult in a moment but first of all, what was it in your upbringing, you say you were brought up in a Christian home, that made you want to look elsewhere? What was it that you can identify that made you think I need to explore something else?
 
Brian Steele 
Well, that's it's a great question. Because I had really incredible parents, I do have really incredible parents, the church for for whatever reason, I didn't connect with the practice, in, in my home church, I had felt I was also adopted as a as an infant. And I think that adoption carried a sense of, of not belonging, not because my parents didn't love me, or my brother and sister didn't love me but there was just a deep type of not belonging. You know, for example, during some of the church services, instead of mingling in the commons, at coffee hour or outside with the other kids, I would hide in the bathroom. So there was that sort of painful sense that I don't belong. So when I got old enough, in middle school, I think it was an expression of that, where if I don't belong here, where do I belong? And that just led to a journey of exploration. I think it's also something that made me very vulnerable to being recruited by the cult because cults artificially provide belonging to people who at different stages in their lives are vulnerable. So I think that made me a prime target,
 
Rodney Olsen 
I was gonna say that cult would have seen you as ripe for the picking, because you're looking for identity, you're looking for a place and and so often, that's what they are promising to people who enter the cult. What were some of the practices there that started to tip you off to the fact that this isn't quite right.
 
Brian Steele 
It was a Bible based cult. It was Christian. Their doctrine, I would say now is was basically normal Christian doctrine. What made it destructive was their practices of control, manipulation, use of fear, guilt, shame, and also practices of isolation. So they had convinced me that my family was against me, that my other friends were satanic, quote, unquote, and so they isolated me. And then in that isolation, I was much more easily to control. So it wasn't at all about the doctrine. I would say you could take the doctrine that was found there in terms of basic Christian beliefs, and you could import that into any mainline church, but it was about the abuse of authority and the abuse of control over the members lives too. Very, very small degree. Basically, there were arranged marriages, if you wanted to date somebody had to seek counsel from the leadership, and they would tell you where to live, and where to work effectively. And there was a high degree of guilt, shame and fear that was used to control people. So just for example, Rodney, there was a member who ended up leaving the cult, and a week later, he died tragically in a plane crash. And the leadership said, See, look what happens when you leave. It's that level of control and fear. And really, I was turned into a different person, my personality was replaced, I'd become somebody that was the group ideal, and it was forced into a mold. And really, I lost myself.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I suppose that's the fear of some looking into the church from the outside that they see people taking this book that we call the scriptures, the Bible, and they can spin it in so many different ways. But what you're saying is it wasn't the Bible that was at fault, it was people trying to take stuff from the Bible and spin it in a way that it was never meant to be.
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, that's exactly right, that the scripture can be used as a two by four, to beat people into submission, we had so many different meetings in a week that the workload was, was incredible, there would be something practically every day. And if you missed something, for whatever reason, you know, one of the leading brothers would say, Brian, you know, the Bible says that we shouldn't forsake the gathering of ourselves together. And don't you think, brother that you need to be coming to all of our meetings, right likes that type of that type of control. And, and if you're isolated from the rest of your family, and friends and your, your whole world, depends on that social structure, then they can turn the love up and down, based on how you're performing and it's used to control people.
 
Rodney Olsen 
How did you eventually exit that group?
 
Brian Steele 
Well, my parents knew that something was wrong. They saw a massive change in my life, they saw the personality change. And they had tried to get me out Rodney, they had talked with me a number of times, but but I didn't have any inclination of ever leaving. So the coal was going to send me from California to a university in Bellingham, Washington called Western Washington University. And I got into went into that school as a geology graduate student, that was going to be my guys. That was going to be my cover. And then I was going to recruit college students for the cult there. So on my way from Santa Barbara, to Washington State, my parents said, Would you please just come by our house just to say hi, and I reluctantly went, and then they said, We need you to go to your uncle's house to help us move a TV. So I go to the uncle's house. Well, they had hired a world renowned expert, he was a deprogrammer, somebody who got people out of cults across the world and they kept me there for a week. It was at that time an involuntary intervention. So they took my car keys and my shoes and my wallet, and they moved furniture in front of the doors, they nailed windows shut, they removed the sharps from the kitchen, they had two big bodyguards, and I was basically kept there to prevent me from leaving so that I could listen to this man as he walked through, hour by hour, day by day. So I could finally start thinking again. And that's what got me out of the cult was this intervention that my parents performed? And I am I have so much gratitude for them. Rod knew that they would do this, that they would show me that kind of love, that they would do that level of intervention in order to get me out. And I'm so grateful for that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
At what point during that time that forced intervention, did the light start going on for you? Do you start to realize, actually, what they're saying is the truth.
 
Brian Steele 
It was probably day three or four, that the irony is that there's no system of control. And that could be a cult control. It could be a domestic violence situation works on national levels, the whole system of control is the same in any setting of that kind of social manipulation, but it's never 100% perfect. So there's always doubts and I had my doubts while I was in the group, but I just kept pushing them down or I didn't have the courage to face them or I had the fear that if I acted on those doubts that I would be basically kicked to the curb or done away with and so It took about three days of listening to the programmer where those doubts were able to surface to my mind enough. And I was able to reengage my critical thinking that I thought, oh boy, I'm in trouble I have myself in something, it's pretty deep, and it's pretty bad.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you managed to then start to see that this wasn't the place for you to be. Were there recriminations from the group, once they found out that you were leaving.
 
Brian Steele 
I didn't tell them. I just didn't show up to my mission training team where the group was, was going to do more training. Instead, my parents sent me to a rehab center in Ohio for cold victims, which was another tremendous gift. So I didn't face any recriminations from the group because I just disappeared, I didn't tell them where I was, I just literally disappeared off the map from the group. At the Counseling Center, I got to learn about all of the cult dynamics and how the psychological implications I got to unpack the psychological baggage and the emotional damage that was done, I got to straighten out some of the spiritual baggage. And Rodney, I was so fortunate to have that type of recovery, because the vast majority people who leave groups like that, never fully recover. And they never understand what happened to them and why it happened. And they carry that baggage the rest of their lives. It's so sad. So this was 30 years ago. And I still have every once in a while little twinges, I would say, I'm healed. But I have some skin. I have some scars. From that experience. I wouldn't say person who goes through that can ever be fully healed. But a person can find a life that is healthy and thriving, again, a life of faith. But it sure takes a long time running.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what did that do, immediately after that, what did that do for your faith? Was it something that you said, Okay, well, I'm going to turn from this facade of faith into a true faith or, or did it cause you to walk away for a while?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, I think what happened is the pendulum did swing the other way. I've maintained my faith. But I walked away from the spiritual disciplines and my faith inside the cult, I had to constantly be reading the Bible, always praying, always attending meetings, always on the treadmill, and just the hamster, running as fast as you could and never getting anywhere. So when I left, I think I went too far the other way, Rodney, where I never threw my faith away. But I did wander. And I didn't have the rooting and the grounding of some of the spiritual practices that keep people grounded. So the image that I have the cult felt like Egypt, if we're looking at Israel's story, Egypt was a place of slavery. And those groups like that are effectively a type of slavery. And then from Egypt, I went into a desert, and I wandered, probably for a good 20 years of still being a believer going to church trying to engage. But it was very difficult to engage it in a way that felt like it was really meaningful. And so so there's this period of wandering. And that's, that's really normal. I do feel fortunate that I didn't completely abandon my faith, because that does happen often and understandably.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And there was still further bumps along the road during their time afterwards, weren't they?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, that's right. So during that period, what I'll call the this wilderness period, I got married, had a child, but I wasn't a whole person. In my marriage. I didn't have a life that was integrated. So I would say it felt like I was a Christian Sunday morning, probably for about an hour, and then Monday, not so much. Wednesday, Thursday, even less Friday, definitely not. Saturday, I'm repenting, so I could be a Christian again, Sunday morning. It was that sort of cycle, which effectively was a cycle of sin management. And that life of integrity, eventually, in part led to a divorce in 2008. And that was an even darker period of my life, going through divorce,
 
Rodney Olsen 
it must have been a very difficult time when you're not fully in touch with faith. So that would be difficult to hang on to. And at the same time, if this comes back to that early thing that you spoke about of not feeling that you you fit in that must have come back to haunt you again.
 
Brian Steele 
Yes. Yeah. And and actually, I've just recently started to understand this about myself with my story of belonging. Because I this last summer, I had a sabbatical and went to the soul shepherding Institute with Bill and Christie Gaultiere and, and was able to peel back some of the layers of the onion, and really look at some of the wounding in my past in a way that I hadn't before. And one of the themes was this belonging. So I think, you know, in in a cult, it's a hyper spiritualized, hyper social pressurized environment. So when I left, I think I want it to get as far away from that as I could. So I went to more of a material individual way of living, as opposed to a spiritual, social way of living. And that pendulum swing, you know, I was attending a church, but I didn't have really deep, meaningful relationships. I also had a type of pride where it was like, I don't really need other people. In terms of my faith, I had isolated myself from meaningful relationships inside the church. So as a member of the body of Christ was a member of the church, but I was withering, because I didn't allow myself to connect fully and meaningfully with other people, I was effectively cut off.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you've been through a whole range of different things and, and now you're starting a new journey. When did the idea settle with you that you might even study and become a pastor?
 
Brian Steele 
I have a very unusual route to becoming a pastor. So during the early 2000s, I was actually practicing as a geologist, because I went to school for geology, got my graduate degree in geology, eventually, I joined a firm and was practicing engineering geology, became a partner in the company, eventually transitioned into I was transitioning to becoming president of the company, really doing very well in business and in practicing geology. And at the same time, my son was going into middle school. And so I was at a different church now, and just started volunteering in the middle school youth group, and got really surprised by how much I enjoyed working with the youth group, it was actually shocking. I was like, oh, my goodness, I deeply, deeply enjoy this. And this is satisfying in a way that I've never experienced before, was sort of alarming for me. I'm a volunteer in this ministry. And that just steamrolled, I started gaining more responsibility and having more involvement in it, it really came to a head where the The first time I got to deliver a sermon to these middle school kids, it was so deeply enjoyable. And that same week, I closed a massive business deal in my company. But I had way more satisfaction in this experience in the youth group. And then I thought, Oh, no, I'm in trouble. And so soon after that, the church actually offered me a pastor job to become the youth pastor in this ministry. I mean, that that created a huge dilemma, because I was six months into this transition to become president of the company. So I'd approach my business partners and lay it out and say, you know, this church has offered me to position to become a pastor, and I think I need to explore that. And they were so kind and so generous with me. And they said, Brian, you've been pastoring us all along anyways. So you have to go explore that opportunity. And they gave me this long, long leash, they said, Go check it out. If it's for you, that's great. If it doesn't, you can come back and you can still work for the company. And that was such a gift. And that was incredible. So I have been a pastor now for going on eight years, I was a youth pastor for three years. And now I'm working with adults and how to establish Christ as the foundation in somebody's life. And what's really cool if I could take one little side detour. Part of my responsibility at this congregation is called the belonging team, believe it or not, and my job is to help people feel like they belong in a big congregation and a big church. And I didn't even really connect the dots that this was one of the deepest aches and one of the deepest pains in my life. And God was so good and was so kind that he would use that pain and turn it around, to bring goodness into other people's lives. Like one of the deepest pains of my life, and now, it's part of who I am, and how I'm serving, and how I'm trying to help other people. And it's just, I think God is so creative in the way that he can do that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We know that God doesn't cause the wounds in our lives, but it's constantly amazing to see the way that he takes those wounds those things that we thought were wasted years and, and turn them around. So I imagine you're able to then use that experience for others who are finding that acceptance and that belonging very difficult to be able to walk them very gently towards that belonging.
 
Brian Steele 
That's right, you know, you've you've heard the expression, death by 1000 cuts, I think the Christian life is his life by 1000, cuts, every single one of those small little wounds, the Lord is able to not just restore, and heal, but is able to turn them around to bring blessing and goodness into other people. And it's precisely those small multitude of little cuts that makes our life, I think, meaningful and exciting, and that that ultimately leads to flourishing.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm interested in your book and the premise solid, looking at one parable that Jesus told that's recorded in the Scripture. And you've studied this for many, many years, tell me what drew you to study this particular parable. And maybe you can start off by outlining the parable for those who perhaps haven't heard it before?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, it is Matthew 13:44, which Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field that a man finds and covers up, and then in his joy goes and sells everything, and buys that field. And I stumbled on this parable in 2012. I didn't know anything about the kingdom at all. I'd been a Christian for a long time, but the kingdom was something that was totally outside of my experience. I'd read about it in the Scripture, but it had no bearing on my life. And backing up just a little bit, actually was reading the parable of the sower. And that's a familiar one which says, you know, the sower goes out, and so as a seed, and some of the seed falls on the rocky ground and some of the thorns and some of the shallow soil, but some of the seed finds good soil. And I noticed, for the first time after reading that parable, probably hundreds of times that Jesus said, the seed is the word of the kingdom. And it stopped me dead in my tracks. Because like, I have no idea what the kingdom is. And then shortly later, I was praying the Lord's Prayer. And we'd all you know, prayed that thousands of times our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come and again, I got stopped dead in my tracks. I'm praying for his kingdom. And I have no idea what his kingdom is. And then the kicker was the parable of the hidden treasure. I believe I was that guy had been walking across a field hundreds of times. And one day, stubbed his toe, and I looked down. And there is this treasure box. And so Rodney, I've been studying that single parable for over eight years now. And the question for me, that I've just been exploring is, what is the kingdom? And why is it worth everything? What is the kingdom? And why is it worth everything? I had to wrestle through whether Jesus was actually being a scam artist when he was telling that parable because my experience was, I don't even know what the kingdom is. So really, you're wanting me to sell everything to acquire this thing? And it didn't seem like a good deal for me at first, does that resonate with you at all?
 
Rodney Olsen 
Yeah, it's interesting that, you know, Jesus doesn't seem to tell us exactly what the kingdom is. It's so much of Scripture is the kingdom is like this. It's like this. It's like this will just tell us what it is.
 
Brian Steele 
Right? So and I think that's intentional. And Jesus being deeply rooted in Hebrew Scriptures and being a Jew himself. The Hebrew scriptures are intentionally vague, because they are inviting you in to explore. It's very different than western teaching. Western teaching is going to go here's your five steps for doing XYZ And then you can do this and that. But Hebrew literature in the Hebrew tradition is filled with question and filled the gaps and ambiguity and filled with mystery so that you step in and you explore the world. And when I say that I've been studying the parable of the hidden treasure for eight years, I really mean if you, if you open that treasure box, and begin to walk through the hidden chambers that are within inside that treasure, it really is endless. It's like pulling this piece of yarn, and you're pulling in, you're pulling in, you're pulling and you're pulling, and it's connected to a sweater that's infinitely large, and you're gonna just keep pulling. And but what happened was Rodney, it was a second conversion in my Christian faith. Everything seemed like it was brand new when I discovered that God's kingdom is not a metaphor, that it's not a symbol, but that it is a real actual kingdom, here and now and that Jesus is a real actual King.
 
Rodney Olsen 
When did you start to really come to terms with what you believe this parable is saying?
 
Brian Steele 
That the shift for me is when the kingdom became there, it was a transition from the kingdom becoming real. To the kingdom being really real. This is just an example what I mean by really real. Four years ago, my wife, Katie, got a brain tumor. Before that time, I thought that the brain tumors are real, but they had no bearing on my life whatsoever. They were just kind of real. out there, it was external to my life had no impact on my life. But the moment that we found out about my wife's diagnosis, instantly, brain tumors became really real. That tumor affected every single detail of our life, it invaded almost every conversation that I have, that we had it, it affected our finances, it affected our planning, it affected how we spent our time, it affected our community, brain tumors went from being real, to really real, and that it wove through every fiber of our lives. And that's also what happens with God's kingdom. There's a moment when it becomes something external way out there, that when you realize God's kingdom is really real, and has a bearing upon every breath, that you take every word that you speak every dime, that you spend every minute of your day, every resource, every relationship that hit the rule and reign of Jesus as King has complete and total influence in your life. And meaning and significance. That's when it became it became something. And so that's this, the title of the book is the Kingdom Field Guide: Keys to Finding God's Really Real Kingdom, because Rodney, I don't think the parable, the hidden treasure makes sense so long as we think the kingdom is real. It's not enough. We're not going to go and sell everything for something that's real. It has to become really real.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Do you find that there are a lot of people in churches who would subscribe to traditional Christian belief, and yet they haven't caught this idea of a really real kingdom. And so therefore, it's part of their life. This Christian faith is part of their life. It's not all consuming as you're explaining, with this idea of the kingdom,
 
Brian Steele 
I think, yes, I think for the majority of Christians, I would even say the majority of Christian pastors, for a lot of pastors and leaders and influencers, the kingdom isn't yet really real. But they haven't understood that it's an actual kingdom. There's a tremendous irony in this, in that we were designed and made to live in an eternal kingdom. So it's written in our DNA. And so if you look at the consumption of media, people spend billions and billions of dollars on Kingdom narratives. Any successful franchise is a kingdom narrative. So Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, all of the Marvel movies, all of the Disney films, they're all Kingdom narratives. It's practically the only thing we'll pay money to watch is a good Kingdom narrative down Abby, like, I'm kind of ashamed to say that, you know, we've been 50 hours of Downton Abbey. And there's a reason. It's because it's a very good Kingdom story. So the irony is, is we're starving for Kingdom narratives were desperate for it will consume them in massive quantities. So I think it's something like this kingdom is the only thing we know. But the problem is, we don't know that we know it. It's operating back of mind.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So really, it's a case of when we do stumble across it, finally, we see it there, that's when we're prepared to sell everything for it, because we realize the value of it.
 
Brian Steele 
That's right, and and that it's been there the whole time. It's always there. The premise of my book is you can't see what you don't seek. And that the kingdom will remain invisible. It might even seem unreal, until you start seeking it as your highest priority. And that's why Jesus says, Matthew 6:33, Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. And he's saying, you don't want to seek it, like you've lost your car keys. You want to seek the kingdom, like you've lost a child, that type of priority. And until seeking God's kingdom becomes the priority of our life. It's not gonna matter. That's the the experience in the in the parable. Imagine the guy walking across the field, again, hundreds of times, the hidden treasure, it's not hidden, because it's buried. It's hidden, because he's not looking for it. So it's there. But he stubs his toe, he sees there's a box there he lifts the lid, he starts pouring through the treasure there's there needs to be I think we have to have a period in our lives where we have to dedicate our mind and our thinking by asking what is the kingdom and searching scripture to see what the kingdom is, then eventually, it's going to move from our mind into our heart, we're going to understand the value. So I love in this in this parable, I have this image in my mind where he's, he's finally captured the value of what he's just found. Then he looks up and what does he see? Rodney, he sees a for sale sign, and this field is for sale. And that's why Jesus says in his joy, he goes and sells everything that he has, it's a no brainer. And that's a test to find out if you have found the kingdom or not. Because if you have, it'll be your greatest joy, your highest priority to have the mother of all garage sales. If you're not yet ready to give everything that you have in exchange for the kingdom, you haven't yet found it or you haven't yet discovered that it's really real.
 
Rodney Olsen 
How do we begin that journey? How do we stub our toe so to speak?
 
Brian Steele 
Rodney, that is the question. It's such an important question. Part of the answer is that we have to learn about the kingdom in a way that Jesus taught the kingdom. He taught by using immersive experiences. So yes, he gave some sermons. And yes, he gave some teachings. But you have to look at where and how he taught. So he taught on location. In these places. The first century Jews were already intimately familiar with and his teaching used the physical stuff that they already knew. So he'd say, Oh, the teaching is like a seed. While they're like you mentioned, they're an agricultural society, so they understand farming. Or he would say the kingdom is like this net that's in the water. Well, they would understand that because they're fishermen, or the kingdom is like leaven while they cook with bread. And so they would understand that, the point being that you have to learn about the kingdom in the way that Jesus taught about the kingdom. So my book, I call it the Kingdom Field Guide, because I'm giving people immersive experiences, to learn about the kingdom, I'm directing people to, to physical places that are going to be all around them, and giving them experiences for learning and how to engage their site, how to engage their mind, how to engage all of their senses, to be immersed, so that the kingdom isn't just something that's just limited to their imagination, but they began to connect it to the real world.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You've obviously been on this journey for some time as you've studied this parable. What has been the response of those people that you've helped to take on that journey for those who have entered into this study that you've done and realized it for themselves?
 
Brian Steele 
It's been so fun. I've worked with hundreds of people in my pastor role. And I've seen what's most interesting. I feel like it's been really valuable for people who are in leadership, who have responsibilities in ministry, but they're stuck, and how they communicate to other people about the gospel. So for example, the person who wrote the foreword to the book, his name is Joshua Sheets and he is in high level leadership in a international discipling ministry. And up until the time when we had, we started talking about the kingdom. He didn't know how to communicate to the kingdom, to people that are in his ministry to his leaders. And even further down to the people he was serving. Heat stubbed his toe on the king on the hidden treasure. And this is somebody who has been in ministry for four years. And it became really real to him. And what was so cool was it when he had a sabbatical, he set up different field trips for his family. So they traveled to Israel and to Europe. And he literally like for his kids, he, he hid a box in a field and it gave his children an immersive experience in finding a treasure. And then that helped them understand what God's kingdom was. So I think it's it's all about the immersive experience. It's about the way of learning and the way of really embodying faith. And I've had multiple encounters with people like that who've been Christians for decades, decades, decades, who have not yet made the connection, that God's kingdom isn't just real, but really real,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Is the book available for people to purchase now?
 
Brian Steele 
It is being published going to be on Amazon. And this is book one in a series of seven or eight, all about the parable of the hidden treasure. And you think that one book is enough to explain a parable but 10 books, Rodney is not going to be enough to explain the parable, the hidden treasure, it's all scratching the surface, I think I'd like to speak to people who are in a place where they've they feel stuck. Or maybe they feel like their faith is boring, or dull, or it's routine. And I just want them to know that there is a life of flourishing that's available in this life. That there is like a sense of thrill and excitement. When we discover God's kingdom is really real that that's unlike any other kind of religious duty or any kind of, of just kind of going through the motions. That's really My prayer is that people would stub their toe on the hidden treasure.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Do you find sometimes that people are so caught up in this idea of kingdom, the kingdom to come in eternity, that they are losing the opportunity to live kingdom right now?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, I think it's a huge problem. Well, we have to agree that Jesus is an actual King right now, when he said all authority in heaven on earth has been given to me. That's a description of his current rule and reign that right now at this moment, his kingdom is here, not yet fully. But his kingdom has been inaugurated. And in fact, we are the body of Christ, the king, we are the the embodiment of the king on Earth. That means something if we've been delegated that role, and authority to act on behalf of the name of the king, then there's a real tragedy when that doesn't occur. And I even think of, of recently, Prince Harry, and and Princess Meghan, they have recently decided that they don't want to have official duties in the royal family. And so they've moved to Los Angeles and they have, in a sense abdicated their royalty. In many ways. That is a picture of how many Christians are living their lives, that in reality, they are royalty. They have been given responsibilities in the kingdom of God to act on behalf of the king. But they've decided to abdicate their royalty. They've decided to to live outside of the responsibilities The stewardship that's been entrusted to them, which means they're also going to lose a huge amount of the blessing that comes from, from working and living and having that type of relationship. On behalf of the king, there is a loss.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's fascinating to start to delve into this whole area, or coming out of this, this parable, and the parables around it, where, where Jesus talks about pearls and all sorts of things. But if someone is wanting to get hold of the book, or to get in touch with you, I will put some links in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet. But where's the easiest place to track you down?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, go to kingdomfieldguides.com. That's field guides with an S. And you can sign up to get the book. There'll be information there. You can also find me on Facebook, I have a Facebook page called Kingdom field guides. Or if you'd like to email me I'd love to, to have connection with people and my email is kingdomfieldguide@gmail.com.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Brian, it really has been an honor to chat to you to talk about some of the things that you've discovered as you've lived life and to come to this point where this book is ready to get out there and to invite others into this kingdom. Thank you so much for your time today.
 
Brian Steele 
Rodney, thank you so much. It's been a great honor being on Bleeding Daylight.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

When part of your job is helping others overcome their doubts, how do you admit to the doubts that you’re experiencing?
 
Should faith mean that we never face questions or doubts?
 
Steve Hinton is a pastor and author who has used his own uncertainties to bring greater certainty to others. He has published the book Confessions: Finding Hope Through One Pastor's Doubt.
 
Website: https://www.stevehintonauthor.com/
Blog: https://kingdomology.org/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stevehintonauthor/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stevehintonauthor/ 
Twitter: https://twitter.com/stvhintonauthor 

When she was just seven years old, Amy Watson's mother left her in the care of two notorious serial killers. She spent several years in a children’s home and later her abusive husband tried to kill her. Amy has faced unimaginable trauma but her story is also one of healing and forgiveness.
 
Website: http://amywatsonauthor.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amywatsonauthor/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amywatson07/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/amywatsonauthor/
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Thanks for listening today. Please share this episode and don't forget to connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. When she was just seven years old, her mother left her in the care of two notorious serial killers. She spent several years in a children's home and later, her abusive husband tried to kill her. Today's guest has faced unimaginable trauma, but his story is also one of healing and forgiveness. This episode is confronting at times but it also offers hope, and is a story of light that shatters the darkness. Amy Watson is a blogger, author and podcaster. She holds a degree in biology, a master's degree in business administration and has enjoyed success as an entrepreneur, as well as an educator. Amy hosts the podcast Wednesdays with Watson, where she's not afraid to tackle some big issues with her guests. She's also sharing deeply about her own story. We'll get to hear some of that story today. Amy, thank you for joining us on Bleeding Daylight.
 
Amy Watson 
Thank you, Rodney. I am so excited. I so am a fan of your podcast and what you do and more importantly, your message.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Thank you very much. I'm keen to find out more about your very early years, you certainly didn't have a usual childhood. Tell me about growing up for you.
 
Amy Watson 
Yeah, now I definitely did not have a usual childhood of though as most most trauma survivors will tell you. Of course, we didn't know that but I often tell people that I have been an adult for a long time. At the age of seven years old, I was placed into the care of two very well known serial killers here in the States. For those of your listeners here in the states will at least you know somewhat Gen Xers would would know the name Adam Walsh which is a young man who one of these serial killers kidnapped and killed. But my very first of seven abusers was another one of those serial killers. And so that's really one of my earliest memories is that first of seven abusers, and my mom basically let them babysit us and did what whatever she wanted to do and so she was absent for as long as I can remember, that is my earliest memory at seven years old. That's kind of how I got it got started in life, if you will. And so it's not been a not been a great go. Like I said that he was the first of seven, to, to sexually abused me over the course of seven years. At the age of 14, I was finally removed by the state of Florida and placed in a children's home. I tell people all the time. And I still would maintain that that those were the best years of my life, from age 14 to around 18. I was in a children's home. And that was one of the first places that I found unconditional love and safety. And so those seven years from that that first event that I mentioned to you. Fast forward to 14 years old, my mom basically abandoned me to marry abuser number seven. And so that is why I was removed from her care and so pretty rough go from from very, very, very early on, but also afforded some great opportunities that really kind of filled in some opportunity gaps that that somebody in my position could have had. I would definitely say that as non traditional, and it's beginnings for sure. You know, it was intense. And like I said, I feel like I've been an adult for for a very, very long time.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And obviously we're wanting to know your story. But I'm wondering if you can take us back and tell us a bit of your mom's story. What was going on in her life, that she would put a child in danger like that? Did she have some sort of abuse growing up? Or what was her story?
 
Amy Watson 
Yeah, you know, that's such a great question. And and one that one day I hope to get the full answer to. It's unfortunate. My mom was the daughter of a brigadier general and the army and if you google his name, he comes up he was a prominent general during World War One and World War Two Southern affluent family both of her brothers, one of them a lieutenant colonel in the army, another a well known author who wrote for the Baltimore Sun newspaper. And so all that to say that she was the apple of her dad's eye and when he died, she ran away and got married and had the first of four. I'm the youngest of four girls, and had two children by her first marriage and one of them ended up being somehow profoundly intellectually delayed. And it's now to this day institutionalized with an IQ of someone less than a year old. It is thought that she did something to harm my oldest sister to make that happen because she was born completely normal. We don't know is that is the real answer to that we know that she she had opportunities growing up afforded her, I would imagine that being an army brat wasn't easy, and certainly, at that high of a level probably wasn't easy either. And I think that, you know, she tried to measure up to her brothers, and she had her own intellectual difficulties was dyslexic, which, of course, in those days was was not even a thing. And then had some other health issues that came much later in life. And so I wish I could answer that question with great certainty. I do not know, if she also was abused, I know that it should not have been the story. Unfortunately, that was the story. And so by the time I was born, she was 38 years old. By the time I was born, she wasn't 19 when she left to go to get married to her first husband. So there's 20 years between my oldest sister and me, that is such an important question. So I'm so glad you asked us like what happened to you? You know, this podcast is called Bleeding Daylight. It's like what's so dark about you? And I wish I could ask her that. And she is she passed away when I was 19 years old. But what broke you so that you're continuing to basically break other people in some ways?
 
Rodney Olsen 
At the age of seven, she placed you in danger and started that abuse cycle. What about your sisters? You've mentioned one of them, but what about the other two?
 
Amy Watson 
The other two, ironically, is such a great question. I just met them for the first time in January of this year, the divorce with with her first husband was so contested. And even I mean, when you were talking early 1960s, that dad got full custody of both of these girls, and really protected them from her and then also from us. And so as I got older, I knew that they existed, but never could find them. And then of course, went on with my own life and had lots more trauma after that. And so, never really had the resources and so many ways, or even the thought process to try to find them. And Christmas of last year, I said, let me just type her name and Facebook. And she came and, and her picture kind of popped up on and it was like staring in a mirror except for, you know, 15 years from now, hopefully. But it was so obvious that she was my sister. And so I sent her a pm on on Facebook. And she didn't answer me until January. But ironically, she was living in Colorado, and I live in Florida on the west coast of Florida about 90 miles from the Tampa Bay area, and a sleepy bedroom town. She had literally just bought a house on this little town where I live. And so now we live in the same city after I had not met her my entire life. I'll be 49 in December, but just met her in January. And we went and saw my oldest sister in that institution. And that was hard. But we got to meet her too. And so that's been interesting. But that's a relatively new development of just this year, actually. But my sister Lisa, who I did grew up with is three years older than I she too was placed in the care of these of these same two men as as well as some other dangerous people. But at some point, we kind of parted ways. Even as younger kids, I would go one place and she would go and other sort of stories are different in a lot of ways. And then by the time I was 14 and taken away from my mom by the state, she had already left and so many ways while we grew up together until I was around 10 or 12. It was a whole lot of just kind of trying to survive trauma together. And then we were separated until until I graduate from high school when and she and I are so close to the state and she lives a couple hours from me. But But yeah, so she went through a lot of the same stuff. We don't talk about it a lot because that the stories are a little bit different. But she has the other sister that was that was also neglected and abandoned by the same person.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You touched on the point that it's very difficult to know what is normal and what is not. So you had no frames of reference to say, this is not normal. When did you start to realize that life was not actually normal for you?
 
Amy Watson 
You're right. You have no frame of reference. It was a knock on a door. And it was it was a providential knock on a door. And I will always be grateful for this knock on the door. But I was at a friend's house and I was about 10 years old. So about three years after this first episode, there was a knock on the door and we answered it and then a man and Lady stood there with a bag of candy. And they said, Hey, we're Dawn and Mary Lou. We're from Victory Baptist Church and we'd love it if we could pick you up tomorrow on a church bus and take you to church and here's some candy and we'll bring some candy tomorrow. And we're like yeah, we're in. We got on that church bus the next day. I begin to build a community even as a child at church and junior church and and Sunday school and so now I have Sunday school teachers looking at me and junior church pastors looking at me and all of my friends were from home. homes and healthy homes. And so as a beginning to figure out very quickly, when I would go stay with them, and you know, because I had now had a choice, I could pick a safe place to go when my mom didn't want us around, which was always and so I started hanging out with my friends at my at my church, and learned very quickly that Oh, wow, this I'm missing so much in my own home and, and Rodney. Oddly enough, it wasn't, you know, my friend is not in danger. It was my, my friend's parents loved them, wait, your mom is supposed to love you, your mom is supposed to hug you, you know, your mom's supposed to feed you. I didn't know any of that stuff until I started hanging out with my church friends. And then my uncle, my mom's brother put me in an a private school that was attached to that church. And that that saved my life, because I continued to be watched by people who were like, and something is not okay. And so one night, when I knew that my mom's live-in boyfriend who had literally just gotten out of prison as a pedophile and this was, of course, before you had to register to be a sex offender and all of those things. I went to church one night, and just told my pastor's wife what was going on, they called the authorities and I never went back that night, at least. And so I would say that that providential knock on the door, which is also how I, you know, came to know the Lord and the true sense of the word being introduced to him, and then of in later in life, building a relationship with him. But that was a game changer, the obedience of people who just had compassion for people and a bad neighborhood, to say, hey, let's, let's try to give some of these kids who had these opportunity gaps, let's try to give them a fighting chance of getting out of out of this situation that they're in. And so that was around age 10. And it saved me, by age 14, I trusted them enough to say, Hey, here's what's going on at home. And they stepped in. And because of that, then custody was removed from my mom. And decisions began to be made for me, that were in my best interest, and quite frankly, saved me, by quite possibly could have followed some of those same patterns as so often as a case, it was that knock on the door that shifted everything for me, and really helped me understand what I didn't have, which was just love, and protection, and safety. And I got to watch my friends be 10 and 12, and 13, and 14, and not worry about what they were going to eat that night, or if the power was going to be on or you know where their parents were. And that's how I learned the life that we were living wasn't normal.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And at the age of 14, when you're still in that stage of being a girl, and yet becoming a woman, you move to this home. Tell me about that experience and what that was like.
 
Amy Watson 
Yeah, you know, of course, going getting dropped off there. I did stay in foster care for about 18 months before I went to the children's home, that same pastor, that same church and his wife, who was the person that I told, kept me in their home, so I could finish out that school year. And then I finished my freshman year of high school. But it became abundantly clear that I had needs as most survivors of particular childhood abuse do, you have needs. And so there was a lot of attention seeking behaviors, nothing major, you know, no drugs or anything like that, but a lot of whatever I could do to get attention. So that would be you know, that would tell a lie about something silly, or really what it turned into just this. And this is still true about me today is something I fight, but it's this performance, like I'm going to outwait it, I'm going to work it, I'm going to outwit it. But because of some of those things that just occur and a child that has been through that I needed more attention than they could give me they had three kids of their own. And so they made the decision to put me in this children's home, which kind of on the surface doesn't make a lot of sense, because you know, there were 40 kids at the Children's Home. So the day they dropped me off Rodney, even telling you the story I caught my stomach kind of drops, my heart kind of drops, because they had chosen me for 18 months. And then in the drop off at the children's home, I felt like they had abandoned to me. And of course it goes to that famous things shame. Like what did I do to make you not want me? Why does no one want me? And so those early days at the children's home, I had no other recourse but to blame myself it was like it. You know, I thought to myself, my mom is just doing whatever she did. And I could even see my way clear that that wasn't my fault. But when I stayed with my pastor and his wife for 18 months, and they thought it necessary to take me out of their home because of some attention seeking behaviors. And again, I'm not talking drugs or alcohol I'm talking line. That's really the only thing I can think of off the top of my head but just a lot of attention I wanted I needed a lot of their attention. So those early days were hard because it was another abandonment. But what happened next was remarkable and was another one of those providential moments that was a game changer. For me, and that was the directors of the children's home, who at that time, were really just executive and they're in their functions there. But mom, mom and dad McGowan is what we call them. And mom took a special a special special interest in me, she would spend hours with me just hanging out with me, I would work with her in her office and, and she just loved me. And she didn't try to push anything on me. And then before I knew it, this, this children's home was my everything. And these people were my everything. And to this day, that's still true. And so that experience while a meet the immediate part of it was this is just another abandonment. And I had to work through, Why doesn't anybody want me? And I'm not saying that even even when I started to love it there that I didn't have that question in the back of my mind. And so Rodney, what it did was it produced this production monster. And so everything was done at you know, 185 miles an hour, and it was going to be done better and faster and stronger than ever. And so I figured if I perform that way that people would want me. And so that experience was a good one. But that was a habit that I took into my adulthood, unfortunately. But that was the first place besides my uncle and my aunt, who is my mom's brothers that I saw occasionally, that I remember being unconditionally loved. And, and I was loved so well. They're graduated from high school while I was there, went to college on a full ride scholarship. I also worked at the children's home while I was in college for a few years. And so that experience was a good one. It was redeeming it was healing. And I'm so so grateful for that place to be honest with you,
 
Rodney Olsen 
You found that kind of love that you'd been yearning for at the Children's Home. How long did it take you to realize that this was unconditional love? How long before those things in the back of your mind stop saying, well, they're going to give you up soon. anyway?
 
Amy Watson 
I would say two years, probably, I would just perform, perform perform. You know what it was Rodney. When I turned 18, I turned 18 in December and didn't graduate from high school until June. And when they didn't age me out of the system. When I turned 18 and December, when I still had six months of high school left, I knew that they were the real deal. And so it is actually an interesting question. I was never able to actually put a timestamp on that. But I knew then that they weren't going anywhere. And because they they very well could have just said you're 18 go and and they did not. So they allowed me to stay for that the additional six months while I finished high school. So I would I would say it took a while to undo that kind of fear, the constant evaluation of behavior and shame and all those things that love to hide and those dark corners, you know,
 
Rodney Olsen 
So even amongst all this sort of doubt that's going on amongst the abuse and all these things that are happening, there's obviously this potential that that lay there, because you've done well through schooling through college and, and being able to do well there. Did you think that from that point, life was just going to keep improving?
 
Amy Watson 
I did. I did it. I thought I hoped I knew that the worst was behind me. I absolutely did. And that is such a good question for for people that have been through childhood stuff like I have. It was such a gift that I even had the ability to, to hope for continued, and a better future. But I did I 100% debt I graduated from college, I left the Tampa Bay area, which is where the children's home is went back to my hometown. And that's kind of where some more things came off of the rails for me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I want to explore a little bit of that now because you've got these feelings that life is just almost way up from here. You've put the past behind you. But then what happened?
 
Amy Watson 
I moved back to Jacksonville. Like I mentioned, I was not even back in that city for three or four months before I started dating. A gentleman who is about eight years older than I am. I had gotten hurt in the church. And so it was on a bit of a sabbatical from God had been taught my whole life to stay in stay in church and certainly not to marry someone who did not share my faith and who did did not trust in Jesus. But he knew all the right things to say he had two kids already. I knew that I couldn't have kids fell in love with him and did all the things that I was taught not to moved in with him. All of those things. About three months before we got married was the first time that he hit me and he ruptured my eardrum. After that I went back into performance mode thinking okay, there is a common denominator here and it's me. So what am I doing to make people hurt me? Whether it was a serial killer when I was seven, or the six people that came behind him, or my mom, or now my soon to be husband.  Why do people want to hurt me? And it just threw me back into that performance mode, we started a business together, and it did very, very well. And it did well because of a skill set that I didn't even know I had. But I lived in that domestic violence marriage for 12 years and finally left him in 2007, when he put a gun to my head pulled the trigger. And I'm not sure whether the gum jammed, or there wasn't a bullet in the magazine of the gun. But I pushed him off of may tour a bunch of stuff in my shoulder, kind of made it apropos so that I you know, because the most dangerous time to leave a situation like that is at that point. And so I just kind of acted like I forgave him and waited for my time. And when that time came, I had some friends. And I and I'd like to say that all through out my story, I hope that listeners will see a common thread besides my faith is a community because so many people run they don't share our faith, and sometimes hard for me to tell my redemption story, and give them the hope that they need and that they're looking for. But if they don't share my faith, one thing that we all have in common, and I hope you're hearing my story is a community of people, somebody's always willing to step up. And so when it came time to leave him when it became safe for me to leave him, I had people hiding clothes everywhere, all over the city, people putting plane tickets on credit cards for me to get out of the country. So he could be served with divorce papers. So I left him and move back to my college town. That was in 2008. And that is when I realized that life isn't going up anymore. I lost all of that hope that I had as a 22 year old college graduate, or even all the way through my marriage when he would say I'm sorry. And I would attach that that particular incident to some sort of event, you know, live on this, look this, this hope that this is the last time this is the last time this the last time and so by the time I left him and moved in 2008, I had a significant substance abuse issue. And narcotic pain medication, I had been in a car accident a couple years prior to that, and realize that those pills did more than take away the back pain. You know, there's an old saying that when when you have a substance abuse issue, that one is too many and 10,000 is not enough at left him and did get involved in a church and in a community and started teaching high school for a couple years. But Life Life was hard. And all of the trauma came home to roost about that time when I was right after I left him and was living by myself, and an apartment that was you know, 750 square feet, which is like, you know, a bedroom in the house that I moved out love. Life was tough, then, and it led me into this almost as not almost as legitimate crisis of faith. To be honest with you.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I know that there'll be people listening, who will say, What do you mean, you waited until you were almost killed to get out of that relationship? Because so many people don't understand that it's it's not as simple as walking out. You said that even before you got married, there was that first sign of abuse. And yet you stayed in that relationship? Can you help us understand the difficulty of leaving an abusive relationship?
 
Amy Watson 
Yes, thank you for asking that. There's two ways that that question gets asked, Why didn't you leave? or Why did you stay so long? And it feels to us like an indictment. Because what we need to understand is that one in four women will be in a domestic violence situation, one in seven men will be in a domestic violence situation. What people don't understand is if you can imagine so like in my situation, everything was tied to him every single red cent, my job, my car, everything was connected to him. And so to say, why don't you just leave or go to a shelter shelters basically are meant to triage for domestic violence victims. So there's the practical part of why domestic violence victims don't leave, particularly if there's children involved because they don't have the money to leave. And you can't just go to a shelter. And it's still, I can't believe in 2020 we're having this conversation where we, at least in North America don't have anything in place to help domestic violence victims at the onset of the violence. And that's why so many people don't call because they serve a restraining order, which is a piece of paper and that's all it is. And it makes life more difficult for survivors or for people that are in that situation. And so there's the practical part of it. There's the dangerous the physical dangerous part of it like they can find you and the most dangerous time for a domestic violence victim is Right after they leave. And then finally for me, Rodney, I was hell bent on getting him to love me. And so many domestic violence victims have childhood stories like mine. And all we want to do is to be good enough for somebody to love us and to stop hurting us. And so while I am very well educated, and when I finally did leave him getting a job wasn't a problem. None of that money stuff was a problem, because I had some friends and a community that helped me, and I failed at getting him to love me, at least I thought. And so those are the three reasons I stayed the practical, the safety, that probably most prominent was, I made a vow, I loved him, and I wanted him to love me back. I wanted to stop doing whatever I was doing to make him hit me, and it wasn't until I got back in church and got a community who was speaking life into me, that life began to at least look like it had a tiny little bit of hope people were were speaking that no, that is not your fault. They did not do what so many people want to do is just come in and save the day they walked with me they watched it, I really believe that had they thought that at any time, my life was really in danger, they would have called the police. And certainly the time you put the gun to my head, I made sure I told all of them. And they they were like you have 72 hours to go or we are going to do something about it. And so there is an appropriate time to do something about it. That is such a common question that I'm so glad you asked. Because it's just not that simple. We simply don't know what that domestic violence victim brought into that relationship in terms of insecurities, in terms of abuse, history, like I have abandonment history like I have. And we are just human beings who want somebody to love us. And I just wanted him to love me and I was so determined as a performer to make him love me and to stop doing whatever it was that made him hit me and it wasn't until I got a community of people at my church that spok into me and helped me and lifted me up that I was able to get out. And so it is such as lonely existence and domestic violence. And then when you tell friends, oftentimes they respond with that indicting question. And they Meanwhile, but they make it worse. And so we don't tell anybody. And so I've made it my my mission, whether it's my blog, or whatever, when when I get the opportunity to speak into the lives of people currently in domestic violence situations, to really just say, look, I get it, I understand, and to help them get out and get out safely. And that remains one of my passions, because that is an amazing question. I'm so grateful that you asked it because the average person just can't wrap their head around why you would stay. And it just isn't that simple. Unfortunately,
 
Rodney Olsen 
it sounds like all the way along. Those who will visit abuse upon someone are also using manipulation the whole time to make you feel like this is the best that you deserve. How do you break free from that?
 
Amy Watson 
Yeah. And that's exactly what they do. They they Gaslight you and I'm the best, you deserve, way, way worse than me and all of that. And so for me breaking free from that. There's an old saying in the psychological world that they get you by crook or by hook. And so he often would after an event, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And then lavish love and gifts and all of that stuff. And so I broke free from that manipulation, because of that community that I told you about. But after I left breaking free from the lies that that I deserved to be hit, and all of those things came from and continues to come from a lot of work in counselors offices, a lot of love by being loved by my community. And I real crisis of faith where I just cried out to Jesus, just like John the Baptist said, you know, are you going to help me or should I be looking for somebody else? And so, it wasn't until in the middle of PTSD, flashbacks and floodings and, and just horrific physical issues that I have as a result of this life that I've had of abuse as complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder with a ton of physical issues. I ended up in the hospital, a five day hospital stay for a nervous breakdown about a year and a half after I left him and walking around the halls of that psych ward was the first time in my life I remember not having any responsibilities for myself that my meal that day didn't depend on anything that I did, and my clothes or having a roof over my head. None of it depended on my performance because I thought the children's home would kick me out if I if I wasn't a good kid. But it wasn't until I was hospital. I was with a complete nervous breakdown, that that breakthrough from his lies and his manipulation and that terrible self worth that that gives a survivor of abuse. It wasn't until after that break down. And that crisis of faith and people just investing in me and, and speaking life into me as they continue to do this day. But Rodney, a lot of work in counseling, trauma informed counseling, but it's still very much cloud who I am today, I've just turned it into a mission and try to stay on the right side of it and use it for good. I don't agree to every interview, I wanted to do this one because I love your podcast, being a really good steward of the pain is important to me. And so I use my voice, and I use my story when I think it matters. And when I am when I think it'll help people, and it's turned it into purpose, it makes the pain, I was gonna say bearable, but it makes me embrace the pain. Because there's such purpose in the pain, people need to hear a voice of somebody that has been through some stuff and has every reason to have a needle in their arm, or to be drinking every night or any of those things. And that's just not my story now, because of a lot of people along the way. And obviously, you know, my faith and my church. And like I said counseling, but it takes a while to break that paradigm. And unfortunately, it comes back every now and then when you're in a domestic violence situation like that, that manipulation, like it's your fault. And and because I had already come out of a childhood abuse thing that is our default, that is my default is if something bad happens, it's my fault. And it's a hole that I often have to bury myself out love, come back to the center and come back to the truth of who I am, who I am, and who they were. And and really just try to let it Let it be used for good.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So as part of the healing, recognizing those defaults, and when you start to lean towards those defaults to be able to catch yourself
 
Amy Watson 
Absolutely and and second, a close second to that is having five star friends that will call you out on it, who will just say, Hey, I'm seeing flickers of some behavior that's indicating to me that that we need to get you back to back to center, back to what I call your Psalm 139ness are fearfully and wonderfully made ness or made in the image of God, as we see in Genesis 1:26 and 1:27. Now, so many years later, absolutely. There are defaults, that'll make me go. And there's some some cutting edge therapies that I've that I've been in that make that actually my brain will say you deserved better than than that abuse. And yeah, pull out all of that performance mode that I tried to get into make people love me and be me. But really a close second to that as a community of people who tell me that all the time and who will say hey, Amy, take a day off, walk away from whatever it is you're doing often writing or podcasting or whatever that brings back up the trauma, since so often make me fall into those old habits. And so yeah, there's a list of things eating not eating is one of them for me, Rodney, so I know that I'm struggling when I don't take the time to eat three meals a day. And so stuff like that the eating thing is something that's obvious to everybody. But that is one major one for me. And one that even in real time on this day that we're recording this that I'm struggling with, where my friend will say to me, Hey, did you eat today, and I get that text message every day. And some days I go? No, and she's like, it's four o'clock, I'm like, Okay, I'm going to eat now. And so I can't stress that that community aspect enough. You know, I would love to tell you a story like like Shay Watson told you on your podcast of this time when all of this stuff that the PTSD stuff stopped. For me, it is better, there's no doubt that it's better. But I still very much every day walk with PTSD. And every part of my body that is affected as well. That's not the story that the Lord has told. complete healing. For me, it is it is work. Every day, I use the analogy when I wake up. Most people wake up on sea level, I wake up in a basement. And so I just kind of have to climb out of that basement to get to where most people even just wake up in terms of how they're going to operate that day, and how they're going to treat themselves and how they're going to, you know what they're going to put in their body and that kind of stuff. And so there are definitely defaults, and definitely warning signs. I'm still in counseling, which I think is so important with this kind of body of trauma, and which also is obviously helpful and somebody somebody's watching me, I always say, you know, I've got plenty of people watching me or checking on their strong friend as they call it. That's That's such a good question. Because it it doesn't go away for everybody. It didn't go away. For me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's one thing to do that work within yourself to bring yourself to a better place and it sounds like you're a long way along that track, even though there's still work to be done. But it seems to be taking things to a new level when we start to talk about forgiveness, especially forgiveness for those who haven't ever come You said, I'm sorry, how do you start to forgive people who have brought that abuse into your life?
 
Amy Watson 
Yeah, I learned that lesson the hard way. Right after I turned 18 years old, the state could not tell me or my mom that we could not communicate with each other. And so after she left to get married to the seventh abuser, when I was 14, I saw her at my high school graduation when I was 18. A year later, I was standing in a hospital room where she was on a ventilator, essentially, I knew that was the last visit with her and I stood above her Rodney, and I listened to all the machines in the room, breathing for her everything, all of it, and I looked at her in the bed, and I wanted to just pick up her hand and say, I forgive you, because I knew she was going to die. And I couldn't even do that I just couldn't do it Am I was too, too shattered, my heart was shattered in a million pieces. And I couldn't even begin to know what that even look like to forgive her while she died just a couple months later, and I never got the opportunity to tell her that I forgave her. And I lived in that regret. And I promised myself that I would never ever, ever live in that regret again. And so then I just started over forgiving everybody like, like my ex husband, you punched me in the face. It's good. Let's move on. And there was some air quote, transaction of forgiveness, if you will. But it wasn't until I got healthy enough, especially after I got out of that domestic violence marriage. I've been in counseling a couple years, been really involved in my church gotten the help that I needed for the substance abuse, and so really beginning to deal with life. And I just really began to wonder, and I and I referenced that earlier, what happened to you to make you this broken? Because that makes me sad, whatever that is that happened to you. Somewhere along the way, I realized that when we read Ephesians 4:32, it says Be compassionate one to another tender hearted, forgiving one another. And so some, some translations say kind. I like that word compassion. And I like that it comes first. Because I think that if we can even take a tiny step, I mean that a millimeter of a step in the direction of compassion for the people who hurt us, like, what happened to you, and what broke you, because I'm so sorry, that whatever broke you, it affected me, and there's parts of us that are never going to be okay, I'm not going to continue to put myself on the line of your fire. But I'm so sorry for whatever broke you to make you do these horrible things to me. And so my path to forgiveness is not the, you know, Jesus forgave me and I must forgive even though that's true, I think that it stands to reason that being able to forgive is a is a fruit of being forgiven by Jesus and what he did for us on the cross. But that approach always fell flat to me. Like, if I didn't forgive, Jesus wasn't gonna forgive me that always fell flat to me. But what didn't and what doesn't feel flat to me, is what they did, they did. And and, and today, I still pay the price for it in many, many ways. But it makes me sad for both of these two people, whatever happened to them, they both took to the to their graves with them, and they were miserable, sad people. And so compassion is bread forgiveness for me. And at first, it was that regret, it was regret, you know, that regret of not forgiving my mom and she died. And that's why I would just over forgive. And I said, and I use that word like it is actual true, I don't know that you can over forgive. But I let a bunch of stuff slide that I should have called out on the carpet, because there's a difference between calling it out and forgiving it. condoning and forgiving are also two different things. And so compassion was my pathway to forgiving both of them. And I don't know what happened to either one of them to make them broken. But I am old enough in my life now to look at people who don't treat their wives and their children, like they treated me. And so the vast majority of the world doesn't treat their wives and children, like I got treated. And so it stands to reason they needed something. And so compassion was my pathway to forgiving both of them.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm sure that there are parts in your story that resonate very deeply with some of those who are listening right now. If people are wanting to get into contact with you to learn more about your story and connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
 
Amy Watson 
I think probably the easiest way is AmyWatsonauthor.com such as a m y, and then Watson w a t s o n and then author.com or Google Wednesday's with Watson, you also find me that way. But the easiest way would be my website and just hit that contact button I would love. It is a ministry of mine to work with survivors, particularly domestic violence and childhood abuse at the layman's level that I can. As you know, I've made it my passion with some of the interaction that you and I have had together. And so yeah, my website would be the easiest way for them to get in touch with me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And we will make sure that links to your website to your podcast, or in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet. So people can go there. But as you say, the easiest way is just to head to that website or just a Google and they will be able to find you very quickly. Amy, I know that there's a whole lot more of this story that we could continue to unpack. But I think this is a great place to leave things. Looking at this idea of forgiveness. It's not excusing bad behavior, but actually helping to bring healing to yourself and I really appreciate your openness and your honesty today. Thank you so much for sharing some of your story on Bleeding Daylight,
 
Amy Watson 
Rodney, it's been my pleasure and please keep doing what you're doing. I love what you're doing. dispelling the darkness and and love your podcast, love your heart. And please keep doing what you're doing. It's been such an honor to be here with you today.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net

Jennifer Wilcox is the Founder and Managing Director of Rahab Center, a place for women to break the chains of poverty and learn to grow and thrive in the community. Jennifer turned a horrific childhood and abusive, broken marriage into the beginnings of a program that is now helping other women to transform their lives. Her own story of transformation is inspiring. Today we’ll hear how she went from using alcohol and bad relationships to numb the pain to being in a stable marriage with two children and hope for the future.
 
 
Website: https://www.rahabcenter.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rahabcenter/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rahabcenter/
Email: contact@rahabsheart.com
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen
Welcome. Don’t forget to connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
 
My guest today has turned a horrific childhood and abusive, broken marriage into the beginnings of a program that is now helping other women to transform their lives. Her own story of transformation is inspiring. Today we’ll hear how she went from using alcohol and bad relationships to numb the pain to being in a stable marriage with two children and hope for the future.
 
She’s currently writing a book about her life, but we’ll get a sneak peek at her remarkable story today.
 
Jennifer Wilcox is the Founder and Managing Director of Rahab Center, a place for women to break the chains of poverty and learn to grow and thrive in the community. The center was born out of Jennifer's personal experience, and today we'll explore some of her story. It's an honor to have her joining us on Bleeding Daylight. Jennifer, thanks for your time.
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well, thank you for having me today.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Before we look at the amazing work that you're doing through Rahab Center, can you take us back to your own childhood and help us understand what growing up was like for you?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Sure. So I grew up in Louisiana here in the United States and I grew up extremely poor. We were raised on government assistance, meaning food stamps, WIC, state funded health care, all of those things and at the age of 15, I remember very vividly standing in line at the grocery store buying groceries for the family. And I had to pay with food stamps. And at that time, food stamps, were in a coupon booklet where you had to tear them out and count them out, just like you would money to the cashier. And this sense of humiliation just came over me. And at that time, I told myself, I will never live like this. I do not want my children to ever experience this. So at the young age of 15, I didn't realize what I was telling myself then but now I see why I told myself that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what was home life like for you?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well, you know, my home life was not great. I had a very abusive mother and stepfather. You know, it just, it was a lot, a lot of abuse, a lot of emotional abuse, a lot of physical abuse. And don't get me wrong, I believe in the Word of God. And I believe that children do need to be corrected and disciplined. But there is a strong difference between discipline and abuse. I went through things with my mother causing manipulation. So she would tell me one thing, and then turn around and say she never told me that, and it would end me getting in some kind of trouble with my stepfather. When I would grow up, and I would have to be disciplined, we got a leather belt across our backsides, or we got in trouble with a plastic baseball bat. And so as I grew up, my mother became very angry with me and she would do things like pull me around by my hair, or hit my head into the wall. So I didn't have the greatest childhood experience. And I have three younger brothers. So I would take the brunt of what was coming so that they did not have to experience the abuse. I never wanted them to go through that. Once I got old enough, and I left home, you know, there was no one there to shield them from that. So they took the majority of it once I left
 
Rodney Olsen 
As a child we have no frames of reference to what is normal. At what age do you think you started to understand that what was going on was not right and was not normal?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well, it was at the age of 14. And what happened at the age of 14 is like I said, I had no reference, like you said no money, no, no knowledge of what was normal, not normal. But I knew that if I wanted to get out of my parents' house, I needed a job, I needed to make money to be able to support myself, because I knew that it costs money to do that. So at the age of 14, I decided to take a job as a dishwasher in a restaurant, it was my very first job. And at that time, the pay was only $2 an hour, but they were paying me cash. So I took it. And I worked there for three years and decided that I was going to save enough money to get out. But that didn't happen. In my household when you worked. You were had to pay your parents and I had to pay them for driving me back and forth to work because I wasn't old enough to drive. So the majority of my check was going to them for payment to get me back and forth to my job. And then on top of that, they decided that since I had my own job, I had to support my own self meaning I had to buy my own school supplies. I had to buy my own school clothes. And I didn't have a problem with that at first. But when they were taking over 50% of what I was bringing in, that makes it a little difficult on a 14 year old child.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Now, there's never any excuse for abuse of this kind but there's generally reasons behind it. Did you ever get an indication of what was behind this for your mother and your stepfather? Were they issues in their past that caused this?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Yes. So with my stepfather as I got older, I started to learn more about his past. He grew up in an abusive home. So that's all he knew. So he was just repeating what he knew. With my mother, the story was a little bit different. She grew up in a home that was Roman Catholic. They were very strict Roman Catholic. So my grandparents were extremely strict. I would say that they never did any abuse. I never heard of any abuse from them or any of my aunts and uncles. I think my mother, just being the youngest child, just learned how to manipulate at a very young age. And she continued to do that. And when she wasn't able to manipulate the things that she wanted, she lashed out in an abusive way.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's very hard for a child to come to terms with the sorts of things. As you've mentioned, you're trying to save and trying to get out of home. When did that escape, so to speak, finally happened for you,
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
That finally happened at 19. Unfortunately, I thought I had met the man of my dreams at 19 and decided to marry him. But before we even got married, the emotional abuse started with him and so I jumped right out of one situation into another because what you see as a child, and you're used to you're going to repeat that cycle unless you know better. Well, I did not know that he had childhood abuse in his life. I just thought he was my knight in shining armor coming to save me. So before we were even married, the emotional abuse started. Now on our wedding day, very interesting. I had a gut feeling that I did, I just couldn't do it. I did not want to marry this man. And I went, and I told my mother that I did not want to marry him. And her exact words to me were, you're going to get that blankety dress on and you're going to walk your blank down that aisle and you are not going to embarrass me. And I was so scared of what she might do that I ended up marrying this man. And from that marriage, the abuse got very verbal and physical. And the night I decided I had had enough was the night that he put a gun to my head and pulled back the trigger and I just started praying, you know, for God to help me because I was scared. I knew I was going to die that night and I managed to get away from him. And I went back to my mom's house because that was the only thing that I knew. And I told her what had happened. And she said to me, Well, what did you do to deserve this? And right then and there. And that one moment, I knew that she did not love me that she did not care what had happened to me. So I ended up going back to him for a short period. And we separated. And then we were divorced two years later, because he refused to sign the divorce papers because he was trying to hold that control over me. So by the time I was 21, I had already been married and divorced.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's a real time of turmoil for you and as you say, during that time, you you were just praying. Was that out of a sense of I know there's someone out there or was there some kind of faith there to fall back on at that time?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
You know, I never grew up in the church but the one thing that my mother did do, she sent us to Vacation Bible Schools because she needed a vacation from us children. So I was grateful for that, because it was a week that I could learn something new, and there was no yelling and screaming and hitting during that week. So I always looked forward to that week. So I always knew that God was there. But I didn't understand God because I didn't have that foundation to build on. I only had once a year of going to Vacation Bible School camp.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So he you are at age 21 with this wrecked marriage and abusive marriage that you've got out of. What happened then? Where do you go when you're in that sort of circumstance?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well, at that time, when I left him, I didn't have anything. He took all of our money and drank it away and used it for drugs. So I literally did not have but $20 in my pocket when I left him. And when I did, I didn't know what I was going to do. So I found some friends and lived with them for a little while. But unfortunately, my life took another turn. I when I left him, I had no self esteem, no self worth, I was seriously depressed because I had grown up all my life thinking that I wasn't worth anything. Nobody loved me. So I went down a road of starting to drink again. And I drank heavily. I started drinking on Wednesday night and this went through till Saturday night, I would just start drinking. And that's how I numb the pain. But that road took me down an even darker road. And that road led me to drinking to the point of passing out and I would wake up in places that I didn't know where I was, I would be in some hotel room with some man laying next to me. And I had no idea who he was or how I got there. And so this went on for several years, it was close to 10 years that this went on because I didn't know my worth. It's a very scary situation as a woman to be out there and drinking to the point of passing out and not knowing where you are or who you are with and you know it's by the grace of God that I did not end up dead.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So how did things start to turn around for you?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well, I actually got a job. And this job was with this lady who she really cared about me. And she said to me, Jennifer, you have to stop this. I am scared that one day I am going to get a phone call, and I am going to have to come identify you. And I said, Oh, no, no, that's never going to happen. And because at the time, I had actually decided I was going to go back to school and start my life over, I knew I needed to do something different. But I didn't know what so I decided to become a CNA, put myself through school, got a job immediately right after but the problem with that job was is that I had to be there at 6am in the morning until three in the afternoon. So I was out drinking all night, until two or three in the morning, I would land and get some sleep for an hour or two, and then go to work, which is not a good thing when you're taking care of sick people. And this lady really connected with me, and she was scared for my life. And she just kept talking to me and talking to me. And finally, one day I realized enough was enough. I could not live this way anymore. We were supposed to go to a concert that night. And she never showed up. So I gave her ticket to someone else. Well, that night when I went to that concert, I ended up meeting a gentleman who is now my husband, you know, he really didn't have a great Christian background. But I knew that I wanted something more. And so we got married, and we started going to church before we got married. And that all stemmed of I had gotten into an argument with him, because that's all I knew with people, I only knew how to fight. I didn't know how to be kind and be loving, because I was never shown that. So my way of responding was always to yell, throw things, hit things, those sort of things. Because when you grow up in that situation, and you've had it, that's all you know. So we had gotten into a verbal disagreement. And I went down to the guest bedroom and just stayed there and started crying out to God, because I knew there had to be something different. And I was tired of living this way. I was tired of living angry, I was tired of having to drink to numb the pain that I was feeling. I was tired of the hate that I felt towards everyone. So that night, I stayed down in that room, and I just cried and poured everything out to God and just asked him to please help me to forgive everyone in my past, especially my mother, because that was my biggest hurt was her. And I just cried out to him and stayed down there until I got it all out of my system. And I felt a sense of peace come over to me because when you are crying out to God, and that time of need, he's there. And he answered me, and he lifted that burden from my shoulders. And from that point, you know, it's still a work in progress every day. But from that point on, when I prayed and cried out to him, he took the wheel. And he's led my life ever since. And you know, I'm 46 years old now. And I've had a lot of barriers and obstacles put in my way. But you know, those were put there for a reason. And it's made me the woman who I am today.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned, seeking forgiveness with your mother and being able to forgive her. Was there a time when you've been able to do that and reconcile with it?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
You know, we do not have a relationship to this day. I have tried in the past. But like I said, I I went to God and I laid it at his feet, I laid it at the throne because that's what we need to do. And he really helped me through that process of forgiveness. But in that process, I wrote her a letter. And I just let everything come out. And I told her that no matter what I forgave her, and that I understood, and so I have chosen to this day not to reconcile with her because she has not made the changes that she needs. And through prayer and careful consideration. It is just not best for her to be in my life right now, especially with my children.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what about your brothers? How's the relationship gone with them?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
I have a very close relationship with my younger brother. We are extremely close. The other two, we don't really have a relationship that is because of their choice. They have chosen some paths that are not great. And so I just love them where they're at and when they are ready to make those changes. I am here and I have told them that but myself and my younger brother we are extremely close and we have been since the day he was born.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And tell me about your family. Now. It looks very different. Obviously. Tell me about how home life is for you.
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well, my family is very different. I never thought I'd be on this journey that I am, like I said, I am married. And I've been married to my husband since 2007. And we actually have two young children, I have a seven year old and an eight year old. And God has blessed me with these two amazing little boys. We went through a lot of trials to be able to have children. And I was never physically able to carry a child. But God blessed me, I lost my last child in December of 2012, I was 12 weeks pregnant, and I miscarried that child. I came home from the hospital. And I just spent the day crying out to God and talking to him about it, because he knew where my heart was about wanting to be a mother. And a sense of peace came over me that I have only ever felt one other time in my life. And I just knew somehow everything was gonna be okay. Well, then the story comes to May of 2013. And I was crying to God, because I didn't want to go to church because I knew Mother's Day was coming. And I told God, please don't make me go to church and not be a mother again, you know, they're going to ask the moms to stand up. And you know how much I want to be a mother. I don't want to go and not have children. But we had already started the adoption process. But what I didn't know was that God was going to bring me my first baby on Mother's Day of 2013. I got the phone call. And I answered the phone. Sorry, I'm trying not to cry here because it just brings tears to my eyes. But he, my adoption counselor said, I have a wonderful little baby boy for you and he's 15 months old and she said, but there's a catch. And I said, oh, what's the catch? And she said, he has a baby brother that's going to be born in two weeks. And I need you to take both children. And I just felt the floor and started crying. Because you know, when God says he'll pay you back double for your troubles, he surely did. I lost a baby. That took a lot out of me. And he brought me to more. And so I am went from no children to two children in two weeks. And so it's been a little bit of a rollercoaster. But it's a good thing. Because God chose me to be there, Mama, I just didn't know that I was supposed to be their Mama until he brought them to me. So today, it's just me and my husband and our two children.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Is there still attention for you? Knowing what you came from knowing that you didn't have a good family life modeled for you in the way that you're bringing up your children?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Yes. So you know, before I had children, I've prayed a lot to God, because I did not want to repeat the cycle that I grew up in. And honestly, that was one of my biggest fears. And God had to help me overcome that fear. And he works with me every day about it every day. With my children, there's a huge difference. I do not like to discipline my children because of what I went through. Although I am learning how to do that, and I loving and caring way. It's better than no discipline. And with my children, you know, we are very actively involved in the church community. As a matter of fact, you know, my children go to the AWANA program here. On Monday nights on Wednesday nights, we attend another church for a children's program that they have, and then on Sundays, we're back at a home church. So you know, there's a huge difference between what I grew up in and what they're growing up in. They're getting to see firsthand the love of God, and what it's like to have a mom that that serves god what it's like to have a dad that serves God, you know, so they're getting to see that aspect of it that I never got to see. And I wanted to break that generational curse that was on me, so that my children could live to be able to grow up and serve God once they become adults.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We often talk about the church as family. Are you finding that you're getting that role modeling through members of the Church of of how to be family?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Yes, I you know, the church is a good example. And they do you are right, it is a family. And I do see that with other parents. My children are also homeschooled, which is an absolute blessing. And so I'm really close with some of the homeschool moms. And so I get to see them and how they are raising their children by you know, having them at home, homeschooling them, but also integrating God into their everyday lives. So I'm really lucky that I get it from more than just the church. I get it from the women around me that are in my circle.
 
Rodney Olsen 
This is all led to a place where you've experienced poverty, you've experienced abuse, and you've decided to make a difference for others. Tell me how that happened.
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
When I got the children, I went I went from full time working and traveling and doing what I wanted to do, to all of a sudden becoming a mom of two kids, I had a toddler and a newborn, all in two weeks. So anybody out there with children, I understand what you're going through, especially when they're that age, it came to a point where I didn't want to stay home all the time with my children. I knew there was something more out there. So I spent two days in prayer and talking to God and saying, what is it that you want me to do? Because I know there's more out there, I see the hurt, and I see the pain and I know I can be used for something now what do you want to use me for? So he showed me a vision of me helping women and teaching them the skills that they needed to overcome abuse and poverty, you know, me and my hardhead, I argued with God for a little bit over that and going, No, I'm not qualified to do that. And he said, you are qualified. Look at some of the people I've used. They weren't qualified either. But I chose them. So he chose me for this mission. So it took me two years to get it started. But I started what is called the Rahab Center. And what we do is we have women that come in that are on government assistance, and they come to our program, and they are looking to break that cycle of being on government assistance. Now, 98% of the women that we see coming through our program, are coming out of some sort of domestic violence situation, we seen very quickly that we needed to integrate some kind of trauma based healing for them to where they can heal from that trauma and be able to move forward and break that generational curse on them and their family. So everything we do at the center is biblically based, but they come into the center, and they are not a believer in God, they will see how much love we have for them. And they can see how all of my volunteers and I operate. And they soon come to know the Lord and start understanding their worth in the Lord. And that is the biggest thing to this is once a woman sees her worth and the Lord, and she knows that it doesn't matter what her family told her, or what her husband told her or whoever. But it's what God thinks of you. And when they see that that transformation that happens in them is something that's absolutely powerful. And so me adopting my children, I seen a lot of that poverty in the system of foster care. So we want to be able to help moms learn how to break those cycles, so that they're not losing their children into the foster care system.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're talking about bringing them into the Christian faith. And we look through the Christian scriptures, and there's so many references to father. And yet so many of these women, I'm sure, have really bad experiences with their own father, how do you get them to bridge that gap to understanding that there's a difference when we talk about farther in the scripture?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well, you know, to bridge that gap, really, honestly, I use my own story, to show them and I get into a lot of detail with them. Because they need to know when they come in that it is not just me talking that I've actually lived this and learned that God is our True Father, he may not be our earthly father. And so that is the difference they have to understand. But he's our Heavenly Father, He created us. And if it wasn't for him, we wouldn't be here. So that's what we teach them is that there is a huge difference between what you have here on Earth, and what we have in heaven. And it doesn't matter where we came from. God still loves us enough. And he adopts us into his family. And he wants us, he cares about us enough to be concerned about what we're going through to lead these women to me, so that I can help them understand his love.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And how long has the program been running now?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
We started in 2018. So we are at our two year mark, we just passed our two year mark in August 15 of this year,
 
Rodney Olsen 
I imagine you're starting to see some of the successes that come out of that program. And I know that you wouldn't want to betray a confidence but are there some stories that you can tell us of some of the women who have been through the program and and what life is like for them now?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
The program goes up to 24 months. And the reason for that is because healing doesn't happen overnight. Sometimes it doesn't happen in 30, 60 or 90 days, like we'd like to believe it's not a quick fix. It's something that we need to take our time with and we need to do and we need to deal with all aspects of it. So some of the women that have come through and that they have left the program have been able to go out and get a job. So they're still you know, learning once you go from, I put this once you go from having nothing, no income, you're depending on someone else. And you are now making your own money that is a huge mind shift huge for these women. So because I can't break confidentiality, but I will just tell you a story of a woman who came to us and she had a degree, she had a medical degree. And she's very intelligent and very smart. She does have a job in the medical field right now. But she is still working on her healing process. She came out of an a very abusive childhood and marriage, she's a mom. And so every day for her, she's still working on that. I've had women come to me that just need help with budgeting, and how to grocery shop. And that's fine. We meet each woman where they're at in the program, we don't try to take them somewhere where they're not ready to go. We have a client that has a weight problem, she weighs 450 pounds. And where we are at with her she's been in the program for a year, she is overcoming right now, her hurdles with the weight. Because when she came out of her domestic violence situation, she got on so many drugs that the doctor had put her on, she became just like comatose, almost. And so then her way of dealing with all of that is she would eat food constantly. So we are still in the process of working with her. This is a journey for these women, this is not something like I said that happens overnight or in a time frame, we give them the time that they need to heal. Of course, being in the program, they still have to do the work. If they don't do the work, and they're not willing to show up and put the effort forth, then we release them from the program until they are ready to do the work. Because if they're not willing to take the steps to learn how to fish, then they're not ready to take the steps that they need to fully recover.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned there about the lady who's having problems with her weight, and she's on all sorts of medication. I imagine that in various cases, you would have to be working alongside other professionals such as the medical professionals in her case, is that a hurdle for you? Or are you finding ways to work alongside the other people that these ladies are encountering?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
You know, it's a great thing because when people know what these ladies are doing and that they're working with me, then what they do is we're able to bring everyone together and work together. The lady that I just was telling you about I praise God every day because she's off of those medications now. So she has a clear mind, and she's focusing. But yes, anybody that comes to us that has medical professionals, we cannot talk to anyone outside of ourselves circle until they give us permission, we hold everything we do at the strictest confidence. And I wouldn't want someone else that's working with them break their confidence. So we actually have a release form in place that these women sign and tell us who we can and who we cannot talk to.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm wondering if you look back to that 15 year old who was standing in the store with the food stamps, and you told her what her life would become? Can you imagine, try to get your mind around that as that 15 year old,
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
I look at that almost every day. And who would have ever known where I was at that 15 year old to where I am now. But you know, if I was that 15 year old today, I would tell that 15 year old, it's okay, just trust God, because you never know where your life's going to end up and look for mine. It took a complete 180. And so, you know, don't ever let let what you're going through now stop you. Don't ever let someone else tell you what you can and can't do. Don't ever let someone else tell you that you're not worthy, that you're not loved because you are and even if you don't feel it here from your earthly parents, there's a father in heaven that loves you more than you can even possibly understand. And when you find that person, that mentor in your life, that can help you. Stick with them. Don't give up. And I'll tell you it's some days are not easy, but it's okay. God never said we were going to be here on this earth and everything was going to be rainbows and sprinkles. We are going to have trials. But you know what he's there to pick us up during those trials. He's there to carry us through when you can understand that. That changes your whole perspective about things.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I mentioned that there's a lot of good advice in there. For women who are listening who would ever have access to the rehab center, or even a similar center, wherever they are living, is there other advice that you would pass on to women who are finding themselves in a difficult situation but don't have access to that sort of a program.
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
My biggest advice, if they don't have access to the program that we offer is I would reach out and find someone. If you are in a domestic violence situation, and you are ready to get out of that situation. Almost everywhere you are has a domestic violence shelter, reach out to them. That is your first step. Your second step is especially. If you are in church, because these types of stories don't just happen with women that are in poverty, these situations happen to everyone. And it even happens right in our own church, and we don't realize it. If you are in one of these situations, and you are in a church, reach out, reach out to your pastor, if you don't feel comfortable talking to your pastor, then you find someone in your church that you are comfortable with that can help you through this and get you pointed in the right direction. You can't do this by yourself. I tried. That road led me down a very dangerous road with alcohol, and ending up in trouble with different men. That's not the story I want to hear from these women. Reach out, get that help. And I would suggest start praying, start praying, God will answer you, He will guide you, he will actually bring the people to you to help you. But take a step. And know that no matter what you are going through, you are worthy. God did not put you here on this earth, to be abused, to be beat down with words. That is not what God created you for. God created you to go out there and live and let his light shine through you so that you can bring other people to him. So just remember that no matter what you may feel like you are worthy and you are loved.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And maybe a few words for the many people that we hear in our society, saying that if someone is in an abusive relationship, they should just leave. We know that that's actually difficult. Why is it so difficult?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
It's very difficult, because when you're in that situation, that's not just physical abuse, it's mental abuse. So you are made to think that no one else is going to watch you. No one else is going to love you. There's a lot of things that happen in an abusive relationship that is hard to understand, especially if you have children involved in it. The women don't want to leave because they don't know how they're going to be able to support their children. And that's a scary thing. But what they need to realize is that their children are seeing what is going on, they are hearing what is going on, and they're going to repeat that cycle. If you don't have children, like I didn't have children, so it was easier for me to leave. But again, there's a lot of manipulation that happens in an abusive situation and you are made to think you're not going to find anyone else, no one's going to love you like he's gonna love you. And you're mistaken that love is not the verbal abuse or the physical abuse that is not love. There are so many things we could get into Rodney about gaslighting, and all kinds of different things that happen in abuse. But just know that if you come across a woman that is in that situation, and she comes to you, be there for her, find out what you can do to help don't enable her to stay there. Don't that means don't encourage her to stay there. help her find a way out whether that means the police have to be involved and have to remove her from the home and take her to a shelter or she has somewhere else to go that is safe. Unfortunately, most of the shelters are so full all the time that these women don't get to stay any more than two weeks at some of them. So they're there for two weeks and they have nowhere else to go. Once that two weeks is up, where are they supposed to go, they end up going back to their abuser because they don't have the support that they need. These women need support. And that brings me to the next phase of what we are doing at the rehab center. We have decided that it is time to build an actual location where these women can live. Go through the treatments that they need, go through all the training that they need to continue to break these cycles and be successful for their family. So that is what we are offering so when women here in our community come out of the domestic violence shelter They don't have to go back to their abuser, they can come to us. Now, the second thing is everything that we teach our women is on our website. So if you are out there, and you are in this cycle of poverty, and you just need some help, all you have to do is go to our website, which is rahabcenter.com, fill out the application so that I know some information about you, we will chat, and then I will get you connected with our classes so that you were able to come in and do these classes where you are at.
 
Rodney Olsen 
There's a great opportunity for women, wherever they are in the world to actually connect with you in that way and, and whilst it's not quite the same as being there, there is the opportunity to connect and to be able to be pointed in the direction of of help for them in their particular area. Obviously, this all takes a lot of money. How is the Rahab Center funded?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well, we are strictly funded by private donations and we do have a website. So if you do want to learn more information about that, like I said, it's rehab center.com. And they can go there and everything is right there on our website, how you can help us more information about the program. Even if you're looking as wanting to be a mentor, we're always looking for great Christian women to come alongside us and help mentor these women. And with technology these days, it's amazing what we can do and how many we can reach.
 
Rodney Olsen 
There's great opportunity for people to be involved in a variety of ways. And I'm just wondering, you've spent a lot of your life in situations where you just cannot trust people. There's that trust that is breaking down. There's that trust that has been abused and misused. And I know that you first of all, and mostly found your trust in God. But what's it like being able to, to know people around you and put trust in them? How is that for you?
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well, well, you know, I have been truly blessed that the women that God has brought to me that I have gotten to meet through this journey has just been absolutely incredible. So to be able to freely trust them, and learn by God's leading because he will always lead you. He will always show you when something is not right. And he has done that we've had some women come to us as volunteers that it was just not right. And he showed me and we release them from any obligations with us. But you know, when you really listen to him, that trust can be wide open and the amount of love that I have received from the women that have come around me to support me as been absolutely amazing. When you put your trust in God, he opens up doors that you didn't even see were going to open and he brings people to you that you would have never even had the chance to meet and I have been blessed 100% by each and every woman that has come around me to support me and work in this ministry. And then just watching the women that grow out of the program and watching their love, and their trust turned around to it's just a hundredfold Rodney, it really is. I wish you could see the smile on my face talking about it, but it just lights me up to see that and to be able to share that with everyone around me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Jennifer, it's been really exciting to hear your story. To hear how change has come about to know that for your children life is going to be so much different to what it was like for you growing up. I am going to put details of the website in the show notes at bleeding taillight. dotnet. So if you've been listening and you want to get the details there, but Jennifer, thank you for being open and honest and sharing some of your stories today.
 
Jennifer Wilcox 
Well thank you, Rodney for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity and you blessing me and the ministry and the women that we're serving by this opportunity.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

Sandy Phillips Kirkham authored a book titled, Let Me Prey Upon You. It details how a youth pastor preyed upon her, a betrayal which left her broken, with a shattered faith, and the ultimate shame of being blamed and forced from the church she loved. It’s a story of sexual abuse which may be confronting for some people. It’s also a story of hope and healing.
 
 
Website: https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KirkhamAuthor/
Email: sandykirkhamauthor@gmail.com
 
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Thank you for listening today. Once you’ve heard today’s episode please search for Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, and please share this episode.
 
My guest today authored a book titled, Let Me Prey Upon You. It details how a youth pastor preyed upon her, a betrayal which left her broken, with a shattered faith, and the ultimate shame of being blamed and forced from the church she loved. It’s a story of sexual abuse which may be confronting for some people. It’s also a story of hope and healing.
 
Most of us have insecurities as we try to find our way in the world during our teenage years. Thankfully, many of us are able to find places of safety during that time and eventually we move past the awkwardness of growing up. But what do you do when one of those safe places turns out to be a place of betrayal? Sandy Phillips Kirkham was 16 when her world changed. Today we welcome her to Bleeding Daylight to tell her story. Sandy, thanks for your time.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Well, thank you for having me on. It's good to be here.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Tell me what was life like before your trust was betrayed.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
I was happy little teenage girl in the church. My only issue in my life at that point was that my parents were divorced and that had a very traumatic effect on me. I didn't see my dad very much growing up. Sometimes I had difficulty with my stepfather. It was just an insecure part of my life, having the divorce and missing my dad. I was very active in the church in my teenag years from the time I was about eight. My family did not attend church, but I was invited by a friend and I went every Sunday with them to church. I was baptized when I was 13 and I was very eager to lead my new Christian life. I loved being at church and serving God. It was a place that I found safety. It was a place that I found love and concern for my well being and it was just a place I loved. I was very active. I sang in the choir, I taught Sunday School, I led prayer breakfasts, I think it would be no exaggeration to say that if the doors were open, I was there. So that was kind of where I was  when our church hired a new youth pastor.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And this new youth pastor, I guess, as most youth pastors come along, and he's ready to shake up the world and that was probably his experience to of what happened at that church at the time.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Exactly. It was just after I turned 16 that they hired this new youth pastor and there was an unusual excitement among the adults about this new pastor coming to our church because they had heard of the growth and excitement he had created in his previous church. So they were looking forward to having this dynamic and energetic pastor on staff and really, within a very short time, there was a dramatic change in the youth group. There was a transformation from boring Sunday School lessons, they were replaced with interactive skits, there was guitar music, youth night was added. And the attendance just started to explode. Kids from all over the city were coming to our youth group because of this new cool youth pastor and he really was different in a lot of ways. And while he was close in age to our former pastor, he dressed younger, his hair was longer. He knew our music. He drove a convertible, I guess if you would say in the 70s vernacular, he was hip. When he came to our church, everyone wanted to be a part of this new change, and no one wanted to miss out. He was really like a rock star. So you know, if he asked you to do something, you didn't just do it because you felt like you should, you felt honored to be in his inner circle, so to speak. So it was very a unique time in our in our church and even his sermons were like anything we never heard before. So again, I think that his persona and his charismatic personality really created an atmosphere in our church that we had never seen before.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And so you were just like everyone else, you wanted to be a part of this, and get close to that youth pastor. So what did that involve for you in getting to know him and becoming closer to him?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Almost immediately, he singled me out as to be one of the leaders in the youth group. And so I picked up early that he thought I was special. And of course, that made me feel special. And again, not having the father figure in my life that I wanted. I sort of looked at him that way. And because it was the youth pastor, of course, I just trusted him. And I had no reason to doubt that he didn't have my best interest at heart. You know, when he would ask me to do something, I was happy to do it. I didn't question him. And he started getting me more involved in the church than I'd ever been before. He asked me to serve on committees, he would tell me that, you know, the people and the ladies in the kitchen need help on Sunday after church, I've told them you would help. And I was seeing this as a part of my way of helping God and helping the church grow. And so it was very natural for me, and I enjoyed it. It wasn't like I didn't want to do it. But I did notice that you know, I certainly was one of his special people.
 
Rodney Olsen 
When did things start to turn more sinister?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Well, that actually happened immediately. As far as it wasn't anything gradual. We It was after a youth group meeting at my house, and he was waiting for everyone to leave. We were alone. He walked over to me and simply said, how much he appreciated me and how thankful he was that I was involved in the church, and how much I was helping him and his ministry and of course, I'm on cloud nine because He's telling me these wonderful things and how great I am and then he suddenly bent down and kissed me. I was absolutely stunned. I didn't expect it. I certainly didn't know what to do or say I was so just taken aback. And then I thought, well, this is my youth minister, he wouldn't be doing anything he shouldn't be doing. And so for me, it was almost like I tried to call myself and justify it. Because in my 16 year old mind, I couldn't let myself go to a place that this man would be doing anything that he shouldn't be doing. So I thought, well, maybe I've just under misunderstood and it was just a kiss. So it was really how I rationalized it and so I just kind of let it go. But I babysat for his family. And so he had the opportunity many times to be alone with me. His wife worked evenings, so he would come home and after the kids were in bed, he'd asked if I'd sit and talk about the Bible, we talk about church, we talk about, you know, how we can get more kids involved, he would give me books to read on Christianity. And you know, none of this seemed out of the ordinary to me, because he was my youth minister. I've said many times you know if it had been my 30 year old neighbor down the street, I would have gone home to my mom and said, You know, this is weird. This man wants to sit and talk to me all evening. Why what interest would I have as a teenager talking to this 30 year old man, but because it was my youth pastor, and he used the church and our common interest in the church, he used that then to make it seem normal that this was okay. And so he would kiss me goodnight. Sometimes Sometimes he wouldn't. There was never any real pattern to it. This went on for about a year. And I call that the year of grooming, it was the year of setting me up to get to his ultimate goal, which was to have sex with me, which he eventually did. So that initial contact was very unexpected and but then it was a gradual continuation of this kissing in the hugging that then one night, he just put me on the floor and had sex with me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So to be absolutely clear. This is a man who is almost twice your age. He's married with a family of his own. So this is not a a romance between a youth pastor and someone in the youth group. This goes far beyond that there is no, no way that this can be justified is there?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
No. And not only that, but just after he was hired at our church, a young woman from his first church came forward and accused him of sexual misconduct. When the elders were informed of this, they confronted him. He said he was sorry, he asked for forgiveness, he promised it would never happen again. No information was given to the congregation and within six months, that's when he was kissing me in my hallway. So this was not his first incident of sexual misconduct.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And do you look back and knowing now what you know, just wonder what was happening for those church leaders to have seen those red flags and yet totally ignored them?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Absolutely. I mean, I'm stunned to think that they were aware of this kind of behavior, and they chose to ignore it. And what they basically did was to allow him to continue in ministry, so that he could offend a second time, they gave him the opportunity, not at second chance at ministry, but at a second chance to commit sexual misconduct and sexual abuse again, so basically, they felt that anyone in that congregation could be collateral damage, so that he could continue on in ministry. And I hesitate. And I wish I didn't have to say this. But even though that was over 40 years ago, not a lot has changed in many churches in their in their response. So often, churches will still decide to give these men second chances, or they move them to other churches and I'm sad to say that, because you would hope that it would have changed over the years. And sometimes there are churches, certainly that do respond in the right way. But many times that's not the case.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So how did this supposed relationship continue? Do you think he was justifying it to himself? Or do you think he was just a predator who was out for his own gain the whole time,
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
It was definitely a predator who was out for his own gain. He was abusive to me. He hit me it was not a loving, caring relationship, the sexual behavior became more deviant. But he had gotten to a point where he was able to control me through, you know, manipulation through gaslighting, grooming, and those are terms we can talk about, but he slowly and methodically changed my reality. He slowly methodically took control of who I was, and what I could do. I was I was afraid of being in many respects, you know, sometimes he would be kind to me, and then other times he would be abusive to me. So I never knew who I was going to see at that point. And the relationship then continued for five years in the beginning of the relationship. I did try to get out of it. I would either go to him and say look at the guilt is just killing me. I can't do this. anymore. And he would respond in one of two ways. Either he would be very kind and caring and tell me how much he needed me that the church needed me and that this was God's will that we were together, we were married in God's eyes. And this was part of God's plan, or he would become violent, shoved me against the wall threatened me and tell me Who do you think you are thinking you can leave me, you'll never be able to leave me, no one's going to want to because you're no longer a virgin. And so I was in this trap. And I had, I felt like I was in a black hole with no way out. Now, the relationship went on for five years. But near the end of the relationship, probably, I would say maybe into the second year of the relationship, I had given up in trying to get out, I just assumed that this was my life that I, I didn't feel like I could tell anyone, he made it very clear that if I were to tell anyone, then I would be to be blamed for what would happen to him, and no one's going to believe me. So I didn't feel like I could tell anyone and so I felt trapped and I felt that this was going to be my life, and that this relationship would end when he said it was over.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And they would be those keyboard warriors who sit behind keyboards at home and comment on things online. Who would just say, Well, why didn't you just get out? This is obviously something that you wanted? Can you help us understand that, that feeling of being trapped, that you couldn't actually release yourself from this relationship?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
First of all, I will say that trauma changes, your cognitive thinking and trauma changes how you are able to think and see things. So there may be a way out, and there may have been someone who would have believed me, but that's not how I perceived it. And then you have to remember, too, that these men and predators have a way of systematically changing a person's direction and their life. So through gaslighting, this is the most common. So it's a form of psychological manipulation, they obstruct and they distort the victim's reality, and their understanding of what reality is. So they'll start to say he say things to me, like, you know, you're too sensitive. And you're crazy. I never said that, or no one really likes you, but they tolerate you, or you're just imagining things, when I would, I would sit and try to reason with him. He'd say, That's not how it is. And so you become powerless to fight back because you begin to see yourself through their reality through the reality they want you to see. I know it's hard to understand at times, but that's why abuse women in abusive relationships can't get out because they don't see a way out even though there is one, I didn't see a way out. I just didn't see it.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So is it that the perpetrator has so manipulated the situation that you don't believe that there's worth within yourself aside from from who they are?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Absolutely, I mean, they, for him, and the way he treated me was, you know, his, he constantly reminded me that I wasn't a virgin anymore. And that within the church, that's, you know, something that is taught that, you know, virginity is special, and that you should never give your virginity away. So he constantly reminded me that I would never be loved by anyone else, because I no longer was a virgin. He also berated me many times and how smart I was, I wasn't smart enough. I was too fat. Even though I was a thin 16 year old kid. It was a constant badgering. And so it took me to a level that I had no self esteem. And I began to believe his reality of what he was telling me. And again, who was I going to tell I was I knew enough to know that if I were to ever tell anyone in the church, that the minister that they all adored, and preached every Sunday that he was doing these kinds of things to me, I knew that was going to be a bombshell. I didn't know what the results would be. But I knew that trying to get that kind of information out, would have been devastating to the people in the church. And again, who were they going to believe me or him? So I stayed silent. I didn't I didn't say anything.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned that there was an accusation from a previous church. Was there any way that you could tell Were there other women or young girls involved with him at this stage? Or were you the only one that you know of?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
No, he used to brag to me that he had so and so in his office and she let him kiss her and he felt her and he touched her. He would tell me of these incidences in his office, so he was bragging to me about other and these were mostly women. There weren't other teenagers. I learned later find out that there were other girls that he probably kissed or he touched, but I don't know of any that went as far as sexual intercourse that as they did with me, but there certainly were other cases and girls and women. That he had the same time he was having sex with me inappropriate behavior with other women and girls.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Do you think that some of that that kissing and that touching as part of his grooming for those other women and other girls, was actually kind of a test to see? How far can I take this?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Yes, I think so. And I think some of them, let him go farther than others. It's always a test with these men, that's part of the game for them, they derive some kind of pleasure out of watching to see how far they can go. And again, most of these women and young girls or insert, certainly children are vulnerable. There's something about them in their lives, that they know that they are craving attention, and that it will be easy for them to make these moves on them. And in they'll keep the secret. There were women I know he would talk about and say, Well, she would never let me get near her. They have a sixth sense almost about who's got a vulnerability that they can tap into.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It sounds like this is such a terrible place for you to be and you're saying that you're feeling trapped. But eventually you did break free of that relationship. How did that come about?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
That only happened because two people in the church became suspicious, and followed him one night and found us. He was called into the elders. I have no idea what he told them. But I'm certain that he gave his side of the story, which wouldn't have been accurate. But eventually, they decided to forgive him and they gave him a going away party, he was sent to another church where he once again committed sexual misconduct within a very short period of time. After he left, I was called in by the elders of the church. And I was told that because of my behavior, I was to leave the church, I can tell you of all the things that happened to me and that were done to me during that five year period, nothing was more devastating to me, than to be told that I was unfit to worship in the church that I loved. Even now, as I speak those words, it's very hurtful for me, to be reminded that I was told by the elders that I was to be kicked out of the church, when he was forgiven, and able to move on with his life. I left the church, and I kind of floundered a little bit and tried to find my way, I eventually married and then I spent the next 27 years feeling guilty. Because I felt that I'd had an affair with a married man who was my pastor. And I spent 27 years hiding my past for my husband and my closest friends, always fearing that someone would find out and it was a nightmare to have to live with that for 27 years, I had many trigger factors that I had to disguise when they would happen in my life. And I was out somewhere and, and I would be reminded of him. I spent 27 years trying to live a life that I wanted to live. I had a happy marriage, I had two great kids, but I always had this abuse. And I didn't even think of it as abusive to me, I saw myself that I'd had an affair with a married man, I didn't at that point, see it as abuse until a trigger factor forced me to face my past. And that's when I began to understand that I was sexually abused that this was not an affair, that this man never cared about me, and that I should have been safe with him as my pastor, but I was not.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So due to the inaction of the elders at this church. Exactly what he had told you would happen is that no one's going to believe you you are supposedly damaged goods, was actually the reality that they forced upon you by asking you to leave that church that the blame was on you. So he was gaming the system the whole time, knowing that would be the reality.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
You have to remember that these men are very charismatic, which he was, they not only groom and manipulate the victim, but they groom and manipulate the entire congregation. So he certainly knew how to work them. And they were willing to accept his version of the story. One of the things that he did tell me after he was called in by the elders, he made a phone call to me. And he said, if they ask you anything, tell them that this is only been going on for a year. Now. I think he did that for two reasons. One, he didn't want them to know that this started when I was 16. I was about 21 when they found him with me. So that's been five years. But so he said tell them that this has only been going on for a year, because one he didn't want them to know my true age when it started. But I also think more importantly, I think he felt like he could be forgiven if he could say that it was only going on for a year it would be a little tougher to ask for forgiveness if for the entire time of his ministry. He was having sex with me while he preached every Sunday morning. It would be a little tougher to say he made a mistake, and that this was something he was sorry for when and only been going on for a year instead of five years.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And just before we start to talk about that healing process that you went through, do you know where this guy is now? Is he still working in church ministry is he still doing the same things
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
I ended up confronting him actually, part of my healing process is that I hired a private investigator, to locate him so that I could confront him. At that time, he was still a pastor in a church, I got the same reaction from that church. And that was, we believe he's a changed man, we don't think anything that happened 27, 30 years ago, is relevant. This happened to you. It doesn't apply to him today. So I was pretty much shut down by that church as well. I eventually went to his denominational leaders and got the same response. I think he's semi retired now. But he still remains in good standing within the church itself. So he can probably preach part time. But he is semi retired, I believe, but he has, he has good standing within the denomination.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So I don't know the laws in the US, but essentially, starting to groom you and starting that relationship when you were just 16. And the age difference, and the the power differential that's there. He was not just doing something immoral. But surely that was something that he's done, that's illegal, that he's never been held account to.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
We have 50 states here in the United States. And each state has a different age as to what is the age of consent. In 1971, when this occurred, age of consent at that time was 16. So I was considered age of consent. So he didn't legally break any laws. I did try to file a suit against him, a new statute had coming out that you could put his name on a registry, if I could prove that something had happened. I couldn't gain any money from it. It wasn't anything that was could take legal action. But it was simply to put his name on a list. But again, because it was the age of consent at that time, I couldn't do even do that. Now, the age of consent has been changed to know in the state of Ohio, where I am to 18. Now, let me just say this, which is interesting. age of consent was 16. However, if he had been my school teacher, my high school English teacher, it would have been against the law. It didn't the age of consent did not apply to teachers, because they claim teachers have power over their students. And therefore they have the ability to abuse that position and power. Oddly enough, that doesn't didn't apply to pastors.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And that's the thing that there's this power differential that even despite that age difference, despite any of that, that there's this power differential, and it's recognized in someone like a teacher, and yet someone who has access to more of your private life, being a youth pastor, or a pastor of any kind, there's not that legislation that holds them back. That just seems to be crazy.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
It's crazy. And they're only out of the 50 states, there's only 13 states that make it illegal for a minister who is counseling a woman, if she has sex with her, or any kind of intimate relationship, there's only 13 states that consider that illegal. So a pastor can call in a woman who's in a very emotional, unstable position, who may be going through a divorce, who's had a death, illness, whatever, he can counsel her, and use that situation to take advantage of her. And it's not against the law. Because she's supposedly is old enough, you know, she's an adult. But however, a doctor, a psychiatrist, they don't have that same pass, they are held responsible, and they lose their license if they do such behavior. So it we have given for some reason pastors and those in spiritual leadership, this kind of passed to say, because you're a pastor, these laws don't apply to you, when in reality, they should be held to a higher standard than the position of the psychiatry because they truly do, as you said, have access to these to the personal lives of these individuals. And they can use that against them. And so it's, it's it's almost, to me, there should be a stricter judgment. In fact, if you think about it, James three, one does talk about that, you know, not many of you to be teachers, and because there's a stricter judgment for those who do, they should be held to a higher standard, and our churches should demand that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Absolutely. And there is a higher standard that we shouldn't even have to rely on the law to know that this is absolutely wrong. I want to talk about this healing. 27 years later, you've been stuffing this down for so many years and trying to ignore the triggers that come regularly. How did the healing actually begin all those 27 years later?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Well, that began is I I was driving along the road and I saw a sign that was to the place he had moved after he left our church. It was an Next sign off on the expressway. And it just sent me into a tailspin, I had to pull off the side of the road and I totally collapsed. sobbing, I couldn't control myself, I, I didn't understand it, because I'd had trigger factors before, and I was able to control them and hide them. And this particular time, it just all erupted. And it was because I think for 27 years, I had stuffed it down, I had tried to, to keep it inside, you know, I became very good at hiding my secret. And all of a sudden, it was out there. And I didn't know how to put it back down. And so what I did, I probably spent two weeks just in a turmoil trying to figure out what to do. And for the first time, I decided I would tell my very good friend, what would what had happened to me. And that's started the beginning, when I was able to find one person that I could trust to tell my story to. And then I told to other friends, it would take me a while before I would tell my husband, even though I didn't have any reason to fear his reaction. It was something that I I was afraid to tell him. And so that took me a while to get there, though. So then what I began to do is through my friends, and through talking to some a couple that I was very close to who are very spiritual, I began my spiritual journey back to God, because for 27 years, I had a disconnect with the church and I never prayed again. I never read my Bible during that 27 years, and this I was someone, I carry my Bible to school with me every day, I prayed every day, I was faithful in my calling to Christ. And I was, I love my faith. And now for 27 years, I had this disconnect, because it reminded me of that time in my life. And so I missed it, but I couldn't figure out how to make it better. So I just accepted that this was the way my spiritual life would be. I took my kids to church, and I forced myself to go, but I never could have that spiritual connection to the church again. So what I was finding was slowly but surely, I was allowing God back into my life and that was because I had done a lot of hard work trying to figure this out in my life. One of the things I did early on, was, I read everything I could on clergy sexual abuse. And so once I began doing that, I began to understand what the grooming was, I could see the the manipulation that he had caused in my life, I could begin to understand, not what happened to me. But what was done to me. And once I began to see that, I finally was able to say, this man didn't care about me, this was not a love relationship. This was an abusive relationship. This was sexual abuse by a pastor. And that was the beginning of my able to let go of the guilt and the shame that I had carried all those 27 years. So I first thing I did was I told someone, then I educated myself. And then I found myself to the point where I could finally say, what what was done to me was not my fault. And that took four, then you would probably think he would think, Well, you could look at this. And of course, it wasn't your fault, you were 16, or he was in a position of power, and he had intimate details about your life that he used against you. But people who are abused, oftentimes want to find some logic to it. And the only logic we can find is that we must have participated or we must have done something to cause it. Otherwise, why would this person do this if I hadn't done something to encourage it. And so that took a while for me to get to that point to understand that. It was always his responsibility to maintain the boundaries, no matter what my issues were in my life, he had no right to do what he did. And so I finally came to that point. And that was a big step in my in my healing as well. And then I had to be kind to myself, I tell victims, healing is messy. It's not easy. You sometimes go from point A to point B, sometimes you go from point A to D, and then you go back to a again. There's no real straight line to healing, you're going to have ups and downs. You're going to be depressed at times but it's worth the effort. It takes time. And it takes work and it takes effort. So be patient and I and I say to be kind to yourself. And then if you're if you're still keeping the secret, like I found what I found was the more I could talk about it. The closer I came to healing, there was freedom in mind being able to talk about it. Now that wasn't easy. The first time I told my friend I literally sat there for 20 minutes and sobbed before I could tell her and come out with the words I was sexually abused by my youth pastor. Keeping the secret doesn't help. What I found was that secret was controlling me for 27 years. I thought by keeping my secret I was in control. But what was actually happening was the secret was controlling me because all it did was continually remind me of him. The secret that I had to protect was always a constant reminder and it wasn't until I let go of that secret that I was finally able to let go of him and the abuse.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And you talk about holding this secret. And it was this secret that was holding things back. But in reality, it was this youth pastor who was continuing to abuse you, even though he was long off the scene, the abuse continues, he broke your relationship with God, he broke your relationship with your husband in that you, you didn't feel that you could tell him everything. And he continued to go on his way. When you confronted him, did you confront him with any of this?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
I did. For me confronting him, I knew from my private investigator that he was going to say he was sorry that you know, and what else would you expect him to say? But for me, I wanted him to understand what he did to me, it wasn't enough for him to say he was sorry, I needed him to articulate so I made a list of about 20 things that I wrote down, and I had him read the list back to me, it started with, I was wrong. When I took your virginity I was wrong. When I kissed you that night in your home, I was wrong. When I hit you, I was wrong. And so I there were 20 things that I went down, that I asked him to read the list. And he did read it to me. And at the end, he said to me, I don't remember all this, but I guess it's true. So I don't even know after the meeting, that he still understood what he really had done to me. I told him that he had taken my spiritual life and he twisted it, he contaminated the church for me, I wanted him to understand it wasn't just, you know, the abuse, it was who he was when he did it, by the fact that he was my clergy and my pastor, it affected my spiritual life, it touched a sacred part of my soul, that I can't get back, I can't have the same trust that I had prior to the abuse, I've been changed by what he had done to me. Now, that doesn't mean I'm defined by what he did to me, it doesn't mean that I don't move forward and find purpose in what happened to me but I have been changed by this abuse. No abuse victim is ever just totally forgets what was done to them. I did try to get him to understand, but I don't think he did. Because once he started speaking, then he start explaining why he was the way he was that he'd had therapy, he'd been identified as a sexual addict. Everything he said after he read the list was about him, and why he was the way he was. And again, he are true narcissist. That's probably how you're going to respond Anyway, you play the victim again, and look for someone to feel sorry for you as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And again, he's repeating that same behavior of not really caring for you, you were just part of his his path to fulfilling his own desires. And it sounds like you just continue to be that.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
And I kind of knew that going into the meeting someone who's as manipulative as he was, and who could lie so easily. But for me, it wasn't so much what he would say to me. But what I felt I needed to say to him, I needed to be able to look him in the eye and say, I get what you did to me now, I didn't understand it, then but I understand it now and what you did to me, you had no right to do and so for me that was power. And to be able to say that to him. I wanted so much to have a different reaction from him, but I wasn't going to get it. So I had to accept that that he wasn't going to get it not only was he not going to get it, but I also requested that his supervisor be in that same meeting. And his supervisor again said to me, Well, you're talking about a man, I don't know. And that's not the person I know. And he has taken this church from 25 people to over 300 people, we have a beautiful church building. And I'm sitting there thinking, this is kind of where I was 40 years ago, nothing has really changed. I was so disappointed in his supervisor, I suppose more than I was in him because, again, I think I expected his response. I was hoping for a different response from his church leadership, which didn't happen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Part of your healing has been to write your book. Let me pray upon you. Maybe you can tell us about the journey of writing that book and, and where that's gone to.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
I had been speaking at conferences and different churches about my experience. And so many people would come up to me and say, Oh, my gosh, you have such an empowering story. You really need to write a book. And I just never thought that would be possible. And so a couple years ago, actually two years ago, I was frustrated by the number of times I would hear people say things like, well, I don't believe that really happened to her because she didn't talk about it when it first happened. Why did she wait so long to tell? And I thought my story will. I think if I tell it right will explain why we wait so long to tell. And so that was part of the reason and the other reason was I wrote the book because I often thought many times. What if when this man was doing what he was doing to me, I had heard someone else's story because I thought I was the only one I thought I got the only bad apple in the barrel. I had no idea that this was possibly happening to anyone else. And I think victims even with even with the internet and everything we hear about clergy abuse, when it's happening to you, you still feel like, I'm still the only one because my situation is different. And so I think, to tell our stories, we empower others and help others find the courage to join begin their journey of healing. So I really wrote the story for for other victims. And then my second purpose was, I wanted to educate those who didn't quite understand, you know, what are the dynamics of clergy abuse? And why does it happen? And how can we prevent it from happening. And so that was the second reason for writing the book, it took me two years to write it, it was difficult at times to write, it's one thing to talk about saying that you were sexually abused, it's another than to go into detail, and write it down in black and white for everyone to read. I really felt it was God's purpose in my life. I think one of the saddest things for me over 27 years was the fact that I always regretted and felt like that when I reached the pearly gates, I would never hear the words well done my good and faithful servant, because I wasn't in the church serving in any capacity. I didn't even like going to church. And so I was sad for the fact that I knew that I would never hear those words. And now I know that this is my ministry, and that I will hear those words, because we need victims to speak out, not only to help each other, but to change the culture of allowing these men to continue in ministry, and to continue this kind of behavior. Because what they're doing, Rodney is they're stealing souls. They're not, they're doing the opposite work of Christ. Because Christ, we're supposed to bring people into our faith or to bring people to closer to Christ. And these men are moving people away from the church. And not only are they was my disconnect from the church, or because of that, my children didn't have the same kind of spiritual upbringing, they would have had had this not happened to me. And so that was a regret that I will always live with. But I did the best I could, you know, with the baggage I was carrying, I mean, I, I took them to church, and but I couldn't engage them, like children have never had a bedtime prayer with their mother. And so for me, that's very, very sad to have to say that, but that's where I was in my life for 27 years. And so now that I'm healing, and I'm moving forward, I have a joy in my life, I'm closer to God, I pray, I can read the Bible without feeling sick to my stomach like I used to do, there is still somewhat of a disconnect with church itself, but that's getting better. And when the trigger factors come now, instead of trying to hide them, I deal with them. And I understand why I'm having them. And I now know God understands why and so I'm in a good place. It took me a while but I'm here.
 
Rodney Olsen 
What has the feedback been like for those who have read the book, and perhaps even some victims who have been able to read through your story.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
So the most rewarding thing, of course, is when I get an email or a message from someone who's read the book, who's been sexually abused, and they tell me how powerful it is to have read that book, it's been able to, to resonate with someone else's story is so powerful, and it and it's given them some hope. One victim talked about, you know, the courage, she finally felt that she could talk about what was done to her by her, her pastor. The other interesting thing that happened, and I didn't expect was, how many women have said to me, I wasn't sexually abused, and I wasn't sexually abused by a pastor. But I was in an abusive relationship with my ex husband or my boyfriend, and all of the things that you talked about the grooming, the manipulation, the gaslighting were all things that he did to me. And it was so empowering to read that. And I could see that what was done to me by my boyfriend, and my ex husband, was not my fault that this was someone who was manipulating me. And one woman said to me, she was reading the book, and she got to the chapter when I talked about grooming, and manipulation and gaslighting. And she said, I just stopped, I handed the book to my current husband. And I said, I want you to read these two chapters, because this is exactly the kind of life I had when I was married to my ex husband. So that was an interesting twist that I didn't expect, but I'm certainly grateful for I've had a couple people talk to me about, well, you know, do we really think that these men should be removed from ministry because that's kind of where I'm come from. But overall, most people read the book and find it engaging. They've learned something from it. They appreciate the fact that I've been so open about my story, that it gives them hope and courage as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's so good to know that the book is having that effect and I would hope that there would be some as well who are in positions of power, who will be able to see the harm that this does and actually change the way that they react. And I know that's a slow process. But I'm hoping that that happens. If people are wanting to get in touch with you or to find the book, what's the easiest place to find you?
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
It's on Amazon, but my website is www.sandyphillipskirkham.com and my book is available through my website. I have some blogs, I have some other interviews that I've done. There's a lot of information that would be helpful if they were interested in that. And looking at the website, I think,
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I will definitely put details of that website in the show notes at bleeding daylight. dotnet. Sandy, I want to say thank you for sharing your story with us for the courage that it takes to to speak about your story. And we do hope and pray that things do change, that the structures that are set up to protect predators will actually turn around and say no more. But I want to thank you for your courage. I want to thank you for your story and and for sharing it with us today.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Well, I appreciate that I so appreciate the opportunity you've given me and because I know it's not an easy topic to talk about, but it is one we need to discuss. And let me just say one last thing to any victim out there. Do not let your abuse define who you are. God has a purpose in your life and your abuse does not have to be the defining point in your life. There's hope.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Thank you very much.
 
Sandy Phillips Kirkham 
Thank you.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

Losing a child is hard enough but what about if no one is prepared to admit that there was even a child to begin with? That’s part of the trauma that Elizabeth Meyers suffered and why she wrote a book to help others facing distress, doubt and suffering. She is also the host of the podcast, Resilient Life Hacks. These days, she uses her experiences to reach out to others who find themselves in life's dark nights. Her book, Undefeated: From Trial to Triumph, How to Stop Fighting the Wrong Battles and Start Living Victoriously tells the story of her journey.
 
  
 
Elizabeth Meyers Website: https://elizabethmeyers.me/
Resilient Life Tribe on FB: https://www.facebook.com/groups/resilientlifetribe
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/elizabethmeyers
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelizmeyers/
Resilient Life Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/resilient-life-hacks/id1530688662
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Hello and thank you for listening. I’d love to connect with you on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Just search for Bleeding Daylight. That’s where we can start a conversation about this and other Bleeding Daylight episodes.
 
Losing a child is hard enough but what about if no one is prepared to admit that there was even a child to begin with? That’s part of the trauma that Elizabeth Meyers suffered and why she wrote a book to help others facing distress, doubt and suffering. She is also the host of the podcast, Resilient Life Hacks. I’m sure you’ll enjoy her story.
 
What do you do when your faith and reality collide to leave you broken, discouraged and swimming in doubt? That's what faced Elizabeth Meyers after a tragic event, derailed her life and left her searching for true healing. These days, she uses her experiences to reach out to others who find themselves in life's dark nights. Her book, Undefeated: From Trial to Triumph, How to Stop Fighting the Wrong Battles and Start Living Victoriously tells the story of her journey. I'm so pleased to have her joining me on Bleeding Daylight. Elizabeth, thanks so much for your time.
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
Oh, yes, thank you for having me and giving me the opportunity to share my story.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We're going to talk about a very traumatic event that had a huge effect on you, but I want to take you back before that time. Tell me what life was like leading up to that event.
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
Yes, well, my husband is active duty in the Air Force. So we move around a lot and at the time, just prior to that we had five children, you know, life was just clicking along, we were homeschooling and looking back now I see how my my faith in God was, I call it a fairweather faith, where, you know, I kind of had this concept of if I do my part, and if I do the right things, and don't do the wrong things, you know, God will bless that and, and life will just go swimmingly and everything will be great, but that that whole concept crumbled. When I faced real tragedy,
 
Rodney Olsen 
And just before that tragedy in the month leading up to it, I believe that there were a number of things that started to go wrong before that major tragedy, what what were some of those things?
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
Interestingly, I had really had this time of deepening my relationship with God, where I really discovered the power of prayer and I really felt connected to God, I believe that God's presence is always with us but sometimes we're more aware of his presence than others. And I really just felt like God and I were were gelling. We were working together. And then things just started to go wrong. And it was big things and little things. I went through a period where people that I prayed for seem to get worse, rather than better. I had a friend who had cancer and she passed away. My grandmother passed away. There were several others. We had friends who were struggling to get pregnant, and I was praying for their baby, they finally got pregnant, and then they lost the baby. There was just all these different things that really were kind of starting to shake my faith up a bit and kind of go, well wait, what's going on here? You know, I thought prayer was supposed to work. But you know, just all these things were piling on me. And I really felt discouraged. I also got pregnant again and I was having trouble adjusting to that, that pregnancy, that time, I was feeling a little grumpy about it and feeling, you know, like, my plate was already too full. And being in the military, we move a lot. And it was only a one year assignment. So I'm gonna have this baby, and then we're gonna move. And so I was really just struggling actually, with coming to terms with that. I love being a mom and I loved all my pregnancies but for whatever reason on that, that time, I was just really struggling, surrendering my life circumstances to God. It had been a couple of months, three months, I guess, into the pregnancy and I had finally kind of surrendered, I'd finally given it over to God and thought, He's got a plan. This is going to be okay and I started to get excited about this pregnancy. I went in for a checkup, and they couldn't find a heartbeat. And so I went for they said, Come back tomorrow, and we'll do an ultrasound. So I went for 24 hours, thinking that my baby might be dead. And I went in the next morning, and they did an ultrasound. And there he was alive and kicking around. And it was so exciting to me, so thrilling that I got to see him. And I just really was excited for the first time about this pregnancy and about this child and looking forward to that. So it was kind of a journey for me to get to that point. But that's where I was right, right before this happened.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And how many children did you have at this stage?
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
So I had five, this was my my sixth pregnancy.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you've got this big family already and you're having to move around as a military family and all these things, and then things start to go wrong and then there is that tragedy that I spoke of, and maybe you can talk us through that.
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
So it was Memorial Day weekend, and we had left where we were living in Alabama and gone out to Texas to visit family. I was in a bit of a funk. I was frustrated. I was feeling like God wasn't holding up his end of the bargain for me. Way, way back when when I had felt him tugging at my heart to trust him to plan our family. I felt that he had said to me it's through a song by Chris Tomlin called More Than Enough, because I felt so inadequate. And I felt like he said to me, I will be more than enough for you. But I was just in this discouraged place. And I thought, Man, God, you're not holding up your end of the bargain. You know, I'm trusting you with my family but this is overwhelming to me and you're not being  my more than enough, I cringe and it's heartbreaking now to confess this, but I said to him, you know, if you're not going to hold up your end of the bargain I want out of this deal and that night, I started spotting. And so I was up all night, you know, I prayed. And I was like, Oh, God, this is not what I meant. You know, I don't, I don't want to lose this child, I've finally just accepted that. I want this child. You know, I love this, this baby. So I stayed up praying all night and I thought to myself, I prayed kind of three things. I said, Lord, not this, you know, I don't want to lose my baby. And then I said, you know, it has to be this just not here. Let me get back home. You know, we were on vacation, we were away from home. And then I prayed, you know, if it has to be here, then the not now, not today, because I was going to see a bunch of my cousins that I hadn't seen in forever, and I was really looking forward to spending time with them again, I'm like, this is like the worst day to have to deal with tragedy. And God answered all three of my prayers with a resounding no. Early in the morning, I woke up. And I told my husband what had been going on, you know, I've been cramping all night, and he put his hand on my belly, and he prayed for our child and his final words of the ending of the prayer of our Lord, we surrender this child to you and at that point, my water broke and I ran to the bathroom and my son was born in into my hands there he was just fits the palm of my hand. I was 14 weeks along. So I passed, you know, the three month mark, where we have this concept that Oh, after you get through three months, you're safe. Which that's, that's not true. But I can't describe I cannot adequately describe that moment. You know, holding this lifeless body of my tiny son. It was then that I realized he was a boy. He was too young to tell on ultrasound yet, but that was the first thing I said was it's a boy. And then I just remember sobbing, wailing uncontrollably like it. It didn't even sound or feel like it was coming from me. So that was the the tragedy that just started this long journey of depression and doubt in God and just wrestling with my faith. I was I was crushed on every side and I really struggled for many years.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And this young boy that you held in your hands. You decided to name him. Tell me about that.
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
Yes, we we named him Timothy Isaac Meyers. So his initials are Tim. And we had picked that out as a boy's name already, we had like a boy's name and a girl's name. When we realized he was a boy, we already had the name ready. And interestingly, you know, Isaac means laughter. And I was like, This is not, there's nothing joyful about this.
 
Rodney Olsen 
As well as having to go through this, you've still already got five children that you're having to, to look after, how did that work out for you in in trying to keep a family together while you're going through your own dark night of the soul and through the doubts that you're facing,
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
it was really difficult, and I really struggled. So following his birth, I started hemorrhaging considerably. And we went to the ER at the local place. And I, you know, I took his body into the hospital there. So some of my bitterness afterwards was towards the medical people that we encountered because he was less than 20 weeks old, they didn't really consider him a human life. I really felt that in order to protect another woman's right to choose, I was denied my right to grieve my son who I loved. They called him the products of conception, they would not give me his body back to bury him. So I was not able to have any kind of funeral or memorial service or anything, because he's less than 20 weeks, and he weighed less than I don't remember what the number is, they wouldn't issue a death certificate. Because if you administered death certificate, then that means you have to admit that there was a life there that died. That really left a big emotional wound in me. And then with all the the bleeding, I wound up having to have surgery A week later, after we got back home, my husband rushed me to the ER because I was just hemorrhaging uncontrollably, and I had to have surgery to stop the bleeding and everything. So physically, I was very anemic and very weak. they opted not to do a blood transfusion, but I was kind of right on the borderline of where you would need one. And they told me it would take about three months to regrow my blood and to feel healthy and normal again. But three months came and went and I still felt horrible, you know, and I went to the doctor, and I'm like, something's not right. And they run their tests. And they're like, Oh, you know, your iron levels are fine, you're good. You know, you've just been through a traumatic thing. And I'm like, I really do not feel well. And they said, Well, you know, your body has to readjust to what's just happened. So if you still feel bad in a year, come back then and talk to us. It's like, oh, my goodness, and they're just, you know, I tried to get help early on, I think and I was just kind of pushed aside. You know, it's like one in four women experience this and yet, we never talk about it. It's just not brought up and our culture doesn't really know how to grieve a child who dies before they are born. We don't really know how to handle that, so that I really got stuck in this place of grief. And then add to that it was only a year assignment, we were halfway through it. And by the time I got back home from the trip, all the friends that I had had that knew I was pregnant, were gone, they had moved on to their next assignment. And we waited like a month, and then a whole new class came in and of new people, and trying to meet new people, when you're going through this kind of grief was so so difficult. You know, a lot of questions. The first question people ask when they're meeting it, well, how many kids do you have? And I could not answer that question. Because I felt like, you know, the obvious answer would be five, because that's how many living children I had there. But when I said that, I felt like I was denying Timothy's existence, which is just what I felt like the medical community had done to me, and I felt like that was dishonouring. My son. And so I wanted to say I have six, but but one just passed away. But you say that and people go, oh, and they kind of just move on. To sum up, I was physically weak and not doing well, I was emotionally stuck in this place of grief and without close friendships. At that point in my life. I've since thought, you know, we've been other assignments in other places. And I was like, if I, if this had happened to me, here, I would have had so much support. But I just because of the circumstances of my life, I didn't at that time, physically and emotionally, mentally, I just fell into really, really negative thinking about everything. And spiritually, I started to doubt everything that I believed. So your original question was asking about, you know, keeping the family going during this time, it was hard, because I couldn't keep myself going, I might, how am I supposed to, to serve, and minister to my kids, when I'm barely functioning. And the difficulty that I had was, I felt, you know, in order to kind of heal and move on mentally and emotionally, I needed to get up and re engage in life and, you know, invest myself in the children that I have here on Earth. But in order to heal and recover physically, I really needed to rest and recover. I had been through my traumatic event physically. And my body was having trouble recovering from that. So I had this constant pull of these two things, and I wasn't sure how to handle that. And then my period of doubt, in faith, and God, I remember thinking, you know, Lord, if this is how you treat your friends, I don't want to be counted among them. And I didn't really voice my doubt aloud to many people, to a lot of Christians who you know, are solid and in what they believe to, for somebody to express doubt is kind of unsettling to them. And they're like, Oh, no, you know, you can't you can't question God. And so I clammed up about that, you know, I tried to get help, physically, and the doctors kind of pushed me aside, I kind of tried to find someone who I could express my doubts with. And I was unable to find an outlet for that. So I kind of just struggled alone and gradually, sort of pulled away from God, I felt like He had abandoned me. I felt like He had betrayed me. And my trust. The day that we left the hospital, and I had to leave his body there with a hospital that wouldn't acknowledge that he was even a child, that was the hardest day of my life. And we went over to the little Memorial Garden where they would, they told me they would cremate him and spread his ashes in this little garden. And so we went over there, and it was a cloudy, overcast day. And in Texas, and off in the distance it wasn't raining yet, but in the distance, I heard the rumble of thunder and I just kind of felt in my spirit that God said, I am with you and that there was that brief moment of comfort. And then I did not hear from God for years, he went radio silent. And as much as I pled and begged and cried out and said, help me change me helped me overcome this. And I just felt like all I got was silence. And that was crushing to me. During this time, I'm struggling with all these doubts and things on the inside, but I didn't I continue to teach my children, the biblical faith that I had. I had known and studied for years. And I continued on and that somewhere in the back of my mind, I was thinking I was aware of the fact that I'm going through a hard time right now. And I'm not really fully convinced that God is real and that his Word is true right now, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, I think I'm probably wrong. And I don't want to confuse my kids. So I, I kept kind of going through the motions, you know, we kept going to church all the time, and we, you know, outwardly I was still doing all the things but in Really, it just felt like emptiness. And, you know, it read in my Bible about these rosy promises of God or somebody would give a sermon on it. And I'm like, Yeah, that sounds great. But that that doesn't work for me. You know, it says, he'll protect you, you know, he won't let your foot slip, the play will not come near your tent, you don't need to be afraid. And I just felt like all of those were not true in my case. So I wondered, is God angry with me? Is he upset? Have I sinned? You know, I just went through everything. And I really just wrestled with that whole concept that everybody has wrestled with probably at some point and is the age old thing of how can a good, all powerful God allow this depth of suffering? And it was not just my own. But even as I look around to other people around me, or even, you know, things you hear on the news, and I just got very discouraged about how can Gods step back and let these things happen?
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned there that you continued to teach your faith to the children. I'm wondering also, how did you talk to them about their brother, Timothy, how did you talk to them about this brother that they had lost?
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
It was difficult, they were also young. And so I wasn't sure how much to share. And I didn't really know how much they would understand. So the morning it happened, you know, we gathered all the kids together, and we told them that we had lost the baby and that we had named him Timothy, the kids were always kind of included in the pregnancies, you know, when we talked about the baby, and mommy's belly and all that. So they they knew all that was going on. At that time, it was only our oldest son, he was eight, he cried a little and seemed sad. The others didn't really seem to get it. And so they kind of appeared to move on. But late after we left that assignment, and move to the next place, my daughter, who was six, when it happened, began to struggle with it a little bit. And she, at that time, you know, in the years to follow, she was really the only one that kind of appeared to be going through a grieving process as well. She didn't tell me about it, she told her Sunday School teacher at church, and the Sunday School teacher kind of pulled me aside, and this was, you know, we were at a brand new church, we just moved there. So I was I felt a little bit like I had dropped the ball, that she wouldn't come to me, but that she went to this person that we don't know very well. But I was grateful that this teacher, she felt safe with this teacher and the teacher was very compassionate and very tender with both of us. And, you know, I think it was just one of those God moments where God puts just the right person in your path at just the right time. But you know, the next youngest one down was four. So he, you know, it just didn't make a big impact on them that our youngest was like, 18 months at the time. So she was kind of oblivious to all of that. But over the years, we have talked to them about it, you know, they're aware of where Timothy falls in the lineup, we went on to have three more rainbow babies after him. So you know, they know that Timothy's for these younger ones is their older brother that they've never met.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned that the medical authorities would not say that Timothy was actually a human, that he had never actually become a baby and yet we know that that's not the case. I'm wondering if you encounter that outside and also, there's this thought for some people that if you have children, after you've lost a baby, well, they're a replacement and I'm sure that must hurt as well. Have you come up against that attitude?
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
Yes. And there's a there's a lot of misunderstandings about losing a child during pregnancy. And not every woman responds to it the same way. You know, I've talked to women who have had early miscarriages and there, they didn't go through the level of grief that I did. So there's certainly freedom for everybody to respond to a situation in their own way. But I think it's healthy for us to honor different people's reactions to things, whether they're reacting the way we would or not, I felt in my heart, in my experience, you know, I bond with the child immediately. And I felt the same as if I had lost any of my other children. To me, there was no difference, except that I didn't have any happy memories to hang on to with this child. I had no pictures, I have one little fuzzy ultrasound picture of that one day, I was so grateful after the fact that they had not heard his heartbeat so that they made me come back and take an ultrasound. And I saw him. That's the only time I saw him alive. And I have a little fuzzy picture of that. That's all I have. And I'm so grateful for that. You know, I don't have memories of him. Nobody else has memories of him. When a loved one passes away, it's comforting to hear other people say that name or talk about what they liked about that person or happy memories that they have. I have none of that. It's just me. I'm the only one that remembers Timothy. So that's really hard. And then to kind of be dismissed by some people, you know, they say, Oh, just have another one. Like you said like that would replace it. Or people who will say oh, well, it's good thing. You weren't further along or there's this This concept that the younger the child is before pregnancy, the less you grieve, if they pass away, we don't have that concept after birth. If you lose a three year old child, nobody says to you, well, at least your child wasn't five years old. But we do that in pregnancy. It's like, for some reason, if you had a child, and if you miscarried, or had a stillbirth later than somehow, in our mind, that's worse than if it happened earlier. You know, everybody's situation, again, is different. I think a lot of times how these things happen, as I've spoken with other women who have had similar experiences is they go to the doctor, and there's no heartbeat. And that's where their tragic moment is, the way that mine happened was very trauma inducing to me that he was actually born, you know, that I held him. And so I think that just seared a lot more on my emotions, and I could not process them, I had no way. You know, like I said, there was no burial, there was no memorial service, the chaplain at the hospital told me that they would spread his ashes in the garden, and that I could come back for this service that they did once a quarter. So I called back later, I was going to drive back out to Texas to go to this memorial service. And they said, Oh, we've we've already done that. We don't allow parents to come because there's just too many diverse religious expectations to cover. So it's just the the nurses and the doctors that were a part of that pregnancy, they come in honor of that. And I was thinking I didn't have a doctor that was, you know, responsible for me and my son or that cares, anything. But I came in from out of town into the ER, so they cremated my son and spread his ashes in this garden, and nobody was there to represent him. I didn't even know what day they did it. They didn't notify me. I there was just I had no no thing that I could do, to process, the grief. Nobody that I felt that I could talk to. I did reach out to one woman who had I knew she had lost a baby full term. And so I told her what happened expecting to have some sort of bond and understanding from her. And she said to me even she's like, yeah, I had an early miscarriage and stillbirth, she goes there, nothing the same. It's not even she she even dismissed me know what you experienced, this is nothing, just move on. I would often replay in my head that day. And I would kind of come to and realize, I don't know what just happened to the last few minutes or hour of my life because I was reliving my past. So I just really struggled with the fact that nobody would validate or acknowledge my grief. And it was so overwhelming. And everybody kept telling me, you just need to move on. You're overreacting. And I just couldn't accept that. And then the one place where I felt like I should be able to go is to God. And I felt like he was being silent. And he was turning his back on me too. So I just really got stuck. For five years, I was stuck in this place of depression. And I wasn't seeking any treatment for it at the time. Because early on, I had gone to the doctor and they're like, you're fine. So I gave up asking for help. I just withdrew into myself. And I quit trying to find a solution.
 
Rodney Olsen 
How did you start to emerge from that you say that, that went on for about five years. You You didn't hear from God, you you didn't have anyone who could grieve alongside you? How did you start to emerge from that?
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
So in the in that five years, when I struggled with depression, and during that time, as I said, we had three more children. And we did three more military moves. So life was just going along. And I you know, I was very busy. And I was a I guess you might call it a high functioning depressed person, I you know, I put a smile on on the outside, oh, I'm fine, everything's great. And I continue to just kind of go through the motions. But on the inside, it just felt like I was carrying this heavy, heavy burden. And I couldn't figure out how to set it down. People in general don't like to change, it's difficult, and we kind of like to stay in our little ruts. But I believe that people are motivated to change, when the pain of staying the way you are exceeds the pain that's required to make a change. And I got to that point in my life where I am. I just was fed up. I cannot do this anymore. I can't have this double life of being fine on the outside and struggling so hard on the inside. I could not figure out like what my root core problem was. I was like, Am I depressed because I'm so tired all the time that I'm you know, I can't get things done and I'm demotivated or am I exhausted because I'm depressed and that's a symptom of that. Or, you know, is there something physical going on in my body or is all of this just a big mess because I failed to trust God and this is the punishment I get or I couldn't figure out Where the root of the problem was. So I decided, you know what, I'm not going to waste any more time trying to figure out the root, I'm just going to attack this on all four fronts. That's how it worked out, you know, we're a military family. So I'm thinking I'm gonna attack this on four fronts. So spiritually, physically, mentally, emotionally, I took deliberate action on all four of those areas and nothing happened right away. There's no like, I mean, there's, there's the point where my life fell apart, there's not I cannot point to a point where it came back together. It was so gradual, you know, it was imperceptible from one day to the next. But gradually over time, it took about another five years, I think, God just led me through that and, and helped me heal in all of those ways. Briefly, you know, spiritually, I went to my pastor and his wife and I said, Hey, I'm depressed, and I'm having doubts about God, please pray for me. I got back into reading my Bible every morning. I kind of pulled away from that, because I'm like, yeah, God's not helping me anyway. But I just decided, you know what, I'm just, I'm going to dig in. And I'm going to read it as though God's Word is true. I had been, I had my filter flipped around, I had been filtering God's word through my life experiences and going, this doesn't match up. God's not real. I learned how to turn that filter over and I call it believe anyway, that's one of the chapters in my book, believe that God's Word is true, and filter your experiences through that. So I believe that God is real, I believe that he does love me and so how can I interpret what I'm going through with the knowledge that God does love me, rather than looking at my experience and saying, oh, God must not love me, because I'm hurting so bad. Physically, I went back to the doctor. But by this time, I, like I said that, and three more babies, and I found a doctor, she was a woman, she had had postpartum depression herself. She was very understanding, she listened to me. And so she helped me get on to a safe antidepressant that I could take while I was nursing. My youngest baby, I listen to so many sermons and suffer like a pill doesn't fix it. And that's true. But for me, taking that medication bumped me up just enough to where I had the ability to do all the other things I needed to do to heal my mind and my body and my emotions and to connect with God. One morning, soon after, just a few days after I started taking the present, I was playing with my toddler, she was in her high chair. And I was just kind of teasing her and you know, doing whatever. And I just suddenly had this realization, I'm like, I actually feel playful. I'm not faking it. And and that was a huge moment for me to realize that I had been faking it that much, you know, that I forgot what it felt like to feel joy and to feel happiness to feel playful. In my mind, I knew a good mother should play with her children. So I'm going through the motions, and I'm doing it, but I wasn't feeling it. And it was in that moment, that I realized how much I had lost by not pursuing healing sooner. You know, and I had tried early on, but I gave up too soon. I really try to encourage people, if you try to get help from a doctor, or a pastor or a counselor, anybody and they they don't listen, or they don't connect and keep trying. Unfortunately, sometimes we have to go through several people before we find the one that will help us. But so I got that help physically. And I started, I changed my diet somewhat. And I started exercising, which was huge for me. Exercising is great for depression and anxiety. But I needed that little boost to be able to get out of bed and go to the gym. I changed the way I think. I realized I don't have to accept every thought that pops into my head, I can consider some thoughts and go You know what, that's not actually true. So when the thought pops up of God doesn't care about you. I go, you know what, that's not true. God's word says that he does care about me. And to fight against those negative thoughts was huge for me. And then finally, with emotionally, just going through that process of grieving, I went to a counselor, I got help with that professional help. I had resisted that for a long time, because I resented the idea of I have to pay someone to listen to me. But it was it was very helpful. And now I encourage everybody, I think everybody needs counseling, we all go through stuff. We all have issues, we're all broken, all in different ways. But I think it's more like the dentist where we just go in for a checkup every so often and kind of just help ribcage, our thinking. And so I was able to go through the process of grieving more with her and get validation for the feelings that I was having. And now that I was on this medication, I could process that a little better. So I attacked my problem on all four of those areas. And it was just very gradually baby steps at a time. I just continued to improve. And my counselor had told me because I had big ups and downs. I wasn't depressed all the time. And when I was not depressed, I'm like What was I so upset out said about? And then when I was depressed, I was like, why did I ever think that life was hopeful? So she told me to write a letter to my depressed self when I was not feeling depressed. So I started journaling during a quiet time in the morning, and I got about three quarters away through the first notebook. And I thought, I think I'm writing a book. And I decided in my mind, like, yeah, you know, everything that God has taught me, it's taken me, you know, almost 10 years to learn all this stuff. I'm like, I really want to give somebody else the shortcut. And if there's other people out there who feel alone, who feel like nobody's listening to them, or who maybe they have doubts about God, and they have nowhere to express that. Like, I don't want those people to feel as alone as I did in those years. I want to say, Hey, you know, this is okay. God's a big boy, he can handle our questions. You know, it's okay, if you're seeking and saying, I don't understand this, God. There's plenty of examples in the Bible where people did just that, and God embraced them, even in their doubt. So I thought, well, I'm gonna write a book to share this message with other people. And it's called Undefeated. From Trial to Trial, you know about living a victorious life, even in the midst of, of suffering and pain. There were so many times during the process of writing that book in those three years, where I was just literally in tears going, who am I, to write a book called Undefeated, when I feel so defeated some days, it's just very powerful to see how God uses us in our brokenness in our weakness. That's when He shines, you know, and then we don't get the credit for it, we don't get the glory for it, he gets the glory, because I'm no, it wasn't me. It was him working through me on my own, I was just a mess, and not helpful to anyone. Like I said earlier, God can redeem anything that we surrender to Him, and He can work that out for good.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Part of the spiritual key that you talk about there is being able to go to that pastor, and to say, I am doubting whether God even exists, or whether he cares for me. Do you think that sometimes in church circles, we're so busy talking about this victorious life, and that everything has to be great that we don't actually get to be real with others? And in turn, we don't get the opportunity to be real with ourselves?
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
Yes, yes, I think you you've hit that on the head, we do a disservice to ourselves, when we don't allow real authentic faith with that mixture of I do believe, help me overcome my unbelief. When we have this atmosphere of Oh, you have to believe everything just the way I do, or you're not a good Christian. That doesn't serve any of the people in the church. And it doesn't honor God. As you look through the Scriptures. He welcomed and invited people to ask questions, to wrestle with him over hard things to, to have a back and forth, we're supposed to have a two way conversation and relationship with God. And he is so much bigger than all of our doubts and questions and fears. And it's not blasphemous, to say, hey, God, I don't get this, this is not making sense to me. I eventually came to the point in my life, where I decided that I don't want a God that I can understand. I want a God that I can trust, even when I don't understand. Because if there was a god that was small enough for my little finite brain to understand, then he wouldn't be worthy of my worship. And he wouldn't be powerful enough to help me in my time of need. And so I have decided that these mysteries of God, the, the fact that we can't get to the bottom of every question, is a good thing. It means that God is bigger than our comprehension. But that also means that he can do more than our comprehension. I love that the verse in Ephesians chapter three that says he does immeasurably more than we can ask or even imagine. So we can't necessarily understand all the whys and the reasons in our pain and in the tragedy, but neither can we understand all the blessings, and the amazing things that he has planned for us that we can't comprehend. And we just have to trust. And I think that's what faith is, is trusting a God that we can't see. And that is bigger than our understanding. But trusting his character, trusting his heart, trusting his love for us. And ultimately, for me, you know, when I would still doubt, you know, is this true? Or does God really love me? Or does he care? All I have to do is look to the cross. It's if God was willing to sacrifice himself, his own son for us? Won't he give us everything else that we need? Won't he provide for us in every other way? And so when I have doubts now, I just I look to Jesus, and I go, God loves me because of what he did for me. For all of us.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned before that you wrote the book, hoping that that would be a shortcut for some people. Yeah. I'm wondering what sort of feedback you've had from some of those people that have read the book, and it's been that shortcut for them. It's been that opportunity to start their own journey towards healing.
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
Yeah, I always love hearing back from from readers and I feel like because I'm was, you know, very open. Especially in the first chapter about all these things I've shared with you, I was just this is where I was, this is how I was angry and hurt, I felt betrayed by God, then a lot of people are willing to write back to me and open up about their struggles. One of the stories that a reader shared with me that most touched my heart was about a year or so ago, the past couple of years, I've been going through some health challenges, I have some kind of autoimmune type thing that doctors can't figure out. So I've just been dealing with a lot of stuff. And there were several days where I was so exhausted, I just lay on the couch, and I would do nothing. And I'm, I've been trying to write my second book, I'm very close to, to getting that one finished, it talks about how to strengthen your life in in these areas that I talked about, I felt so discouraged, because I'm like, I'm supposed to be writing this book, and I can't get my body up off the couch. A lady who had been at a women's retreat, where I spoke on the topic of the book, wrote me several months later, and said, she had given the book to her grandmother, who was in a assisted living facility, and she had just lost her husband. And she had gone through several trips, you know, her health was bad. So she was just really in a tough spot. And she said, she read the book, and it encouraged her so much. And so she was this, like, 86 year old woman was just going around, praying with all the other people in her facility and ministering to them and sharing God with them. And she said, she felt like she had a renewed purpose in her life, that God wasn't done with her yet, that she could go around and tell other people how God could help them in the midst of their trial. And I was so moved by that, here I am laying on the couch, and I can't get up. And yet God is using the message that he had me write, and he's still working. Even when I can't get off the couch, God's not laying on the couch, he's still out there doing stuff. And that was just so encouraging to me that I don't have to be strong all the time. I don't have to feel well, all the time, or, you know, hit the ball out of the park all the time, I just need to be faithful in the little steps each day, and God does the rest, he takes care of all that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
A big part of your story is those people who have finished their time on a particular assignment, and they move on, and you have to make friends with the new people. And then you move on. And there's this real transients amongst the people that you're trying to connect with. And even within the church of not being able to share those doubts initially. And I'm wondering if that's why you've put so much effort into to your website, because you have created a place there, that for people just like yourself, who don't have someone to go to that they can actually interact directly with you there and, and be able to find that person to talk to?
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
Yes, that is huge. The tool that we have right now of the connectedness and the Internet, and all these tools that we have available, are so such a asset that we have to connect with others and to share God's message of hope with other people. At the point when I was writing the book, and I was trying to think, you know, what am I going to do and I realized I need to do something that is mobile in my husband has to move every few years because of his work. But work on the internet, I can keep doing no matter where I am, I can do it from my laptop at home, wherever home happens to be that particular day. I don't have to like keep starting over with a new set of people, the readers that I have in the the people who are on my email list that I chat with, they stayed the same. And it doesn't matter to them where I'm writing from.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I will definitely put some links to the website in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that people can get in touch with you and see all the resources that you have there on your website but for those who are listening, where is the easiest place to get in touch with you.
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
So my website is just my name, elizabethmeyers.me. And on there, there is a contact page where you can just message me straight through there. Or you can just send an email direct to its hi@elizabethmeyers.me. And I do have a bunch of free downloadable resources that people can have there. And for podcast listeners in particular, I offer a free PDF version of my book that you can download and get the whole thing for free that way
 
Rodney Olsen 
When your time on earth finishes, and you get to see Timothy face to face. What do you think that's going to be like?
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
I have tried to imagine that so many times. And I you know, it's that song of like, I can only imagine I you know, I don't know. But I do know that heaven seems like a sweeter place because he's there to me beforehand before I lost him. You know, people would talk about eternity and heaven and I'm gonna just be honest with you. It sounded boring to me. I'm like, I've got things I want to do here on this earth but you know, I don't know them like eager to get to heaven. But after he passed away all that changed. I was not so enamored with this earth. I just saw tragedy everywhere I looked and I had a deep desire to be with my son which I can't fully explain it. wasn't necessarily that I wanted to be dead, but I just wanted to be where he was. And he was with Jesus. And I thought life would be much better with Jesus than it is here. So now there's this attraction, more so to heaven. For me, it doesn't seem like a boring place anymore. It seems, you know, a wonderful place where there's no crying where we're reunited with people, there's healing. We're whole, we're right there with Jesus, whatever questions we have have either been answered by God Himself, or they just no longer matter. And we just let them go and realize that we were focused on the wrong thing. I mean, first of all, we see Jesus face to face, like, I just can't even imagine that and then to get to, I don't know, do we hug and having to get to hug him and hold him? And you know, I don't know. But it is fun to imagine that and the confidence and the assurance that he is there and that he safe and that his life is better there than the one that I could have given him.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Elizabeth, it has been a delight to chat to you to hear some of your story, to hear about the story of Timothy in his life and the way that he is drawing people to Jesus through his story, and you're telling of it. So I want to say thank you for your time today.
 
Elizabeth Meyers 
Thank you for having me. Thank you for allowing me to share what's on my heart.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

Mike Savage was convicted of 89 counts of money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, tax fraud and sentenced to 17 and a half years in federal prison. He's a former radio personality, television news anchor, and has been described as a criminal mastermind. These days he's an adjunct professor teaching Bible Theology and Psychology, and co-hosts A Savage Perspective podcast with his wife Cynthia, Mike authored the book, A Prisoner's Perspective: Redemption of a Criminal Mastermind.
 
 
 
Website: https://www.mikesavagebooks.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mikesavagebooks/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mcsavage89/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/mikesav78418
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Welcome to Bleeding Daylight. Just a quick reminder that you can find Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
 
Today’s guest was convicted of 89 counts of money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, tax fraud and sentenced to 17 and a half years in federal prison.
 
His remarkable story of life transformation and a wife who stood by him throughout everything is inspiring.
 
Mike Savage was jailed for his beliefs. His beliefs were that he could get away with his crimes without getting caught. He's a former radio personality, television news anchor, and has been described as a criminal mastermind. These days he's an adjunct professor teaching Bible Theology and Psychology, and co hosts A Savage Perspective podcast with his wife Cynthia, Mike authored the book, A Prisoner's Perspective: Redemption of a Criminal Mastermind. Today, we get to explore his colorful life on Bleeding Daylight. Mike, thank you so much for your time.
 
Mike Savage 
Well, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I know that the question on everyone's mind is what did he do to get sent to prison? Tell me about the days before you were caught.
 
Mike Savage 
The best way to put it I try not to go into too much detail for two reasons. One, I don't want to glorify my sin and second, I don't want to give anybody any ideas of what to do to make extra money. I was a radio talk show host I was making very little money doing that in the 1980s when I was approached to do some work overseas which had to do with transferring large sums of money. It could be cash, sometimes other types of wire transfers, that sort of thing. Well, I made a little money to begin with and then suddenly discovered, you know, there's a lot more that could be made. So I got involved with doing that and so it was international money laundering. And then, in the United States, there's two there were two forms of money laundering. One was just general money laundering, and the other was international money laundering. I was convicted of both 89 counts of money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, tax fraud and so the sentence was 17 and a half years in federal prison.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I'm wondering now, about those people who knew you at the time, I imagine they didn't even know that this was going on. So this would have been a real surprise, especially for those people who were used to listening to Mike on the radio. He's a good guy, and suddenly you sent off to prison.
 
Mike Savage 
Right? Well, no one knew what I was doing. My family didn't know the people that I was working with the time did not No, I had two lives. I had one the the family man, the working guy was working in Napa, California at the time on a radio station there. And no one had any idea. None whatsoever. I mean, I kept it totally away from them. The other side was the criminal side, which was an entirely as a Jekyll Hyde type of personality. The nice guy, the funny guy who was on the radio, the controversial guy on the radio suddenly became an entirely different person when it came to running a crime business and, and necessarily, so you can't be a nice guy when you're criminal, and being around other criminals. And so there was two different distinct Mike Savages at that time. Both liars, both cheating doing things that he shouldn't have been doing. I want to make this clear I accept responsibility for my crime I went to trial was proven guilty. I was guilty, I am guilty. I take responsibility. I don't want to downplay any of that, like, I was a nice guy to get caught up and stuff. That wasn't the case at all. I was not that people try to pay Oh, it wasn't a pretty nice guys. No, I was a liar. I was a liar. And I was really, really good at it. And until the Lord broke me down, I probably would have stayed on that path and ended up dead. But the amazing thing through all of this was that my wife, Cynthia, who had no idea what was going on, until the federal government, organized crime, Task Force, FBI, IRS, US Postal Service. Everybody came busting into our house, and she was six months pregnant at the time. And they took her away from it to reduce the stress. They told me that until you talk with us, we're not bringing her back. Well, they actually took her to breakfast, you know, they're being hard guys. And so my choice at that point was to I could have confessed and gotten much Last time, but instead I became the tough guy. And so this thing drew out and dragged out for over two years before we actually went to trial.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So that day, this is the time that your wife finds out of what's been going on, you say that you weren't prepared to admit it to the authorities who came busting down your door. What did you say to your wife?
 
Mike Savage 
I told her it was a mistake. They had the wrong person. I lied. I was a liar. I was unsaved. I was I was trying to cover my tracks trying to figure a way out of this and so I lied, and because she loves me so much, and she stayed with me through the entire incarceration. She's with me today in the other room, right? We're still together. And I got out in 2007. She loved me so much. She went along with with what I was saying she she would believe and that was it. It wasn't until much later that I would confess anything to her. That's after I'd been in prison for over two years.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So at that stage, she believes that an innocent man has been sent to prison. She has no idea at this point that you were absolutely guilty.
 
Mike Savage 
Yeah, that's right. And she was raising our children at the same time and sacrificing to come see me visit me in prison every other weekend. six hour drive each way six and a half hour drive from where she was living in the in the Napa area to Lompoc, California. So yeah, I was I was a rotten guy, truly a rotten guy.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what did that do to the trust in your relationship? When finally you admitted that over those two years of getting to trial, and then a couple of years into the sentence, all these years of continuing that lie? And you suddenly say, Well, actually, I did it. What happened to the trust between the two of you?
 
Mike Savage 
It grew, it grew because she has always been trustworthy. To me and our relationship always been trustworthy, even though when I was trying to come up with reasons we should divorce While I was in prison, all this type of thing, she wouldn't have any of that at all. This is the the book honestly started out as an homage to her, and quickly morphed into oh my gosh, this is all about God. Only God could do this. Only God could bring a woman into my life before I got caught. Stay with me after I got caught through all the lies through all the stuff, stay faithful to me. And when I finally told her, she forgave me, she forgave me. Rodney of all of all the things I expected forgiveness was not one of them. But that was what came absolutely, totally, completely. And our relationship grew from from then on even further. If it could, I mean, it just it it mushroomed after that the idea of being able to just confess and say yeah, you know, look, I was I was bad. I got caught up and stuff. I had no business getting caught up in And I mean, the title of the book, the whole thing of the criminal mastermind is irony in the 1980s, and in the United States, they had this war on drugs and so forth. And I was convicted under drug statutes, even though drugs weren't part of the crime and every person that had more than one person working for them, was considered a criminal mastermind in the indictments. It was a it was like a template that was filled out if there was a kid on the street slinging drugs to and he had two or three people that work for him. He was a criminal mastermind it was the is the irony that everybody's a criminal mastermind at that particular time. I wasn't a criminal mastermind, I'd never been in trouble in my life. I just got greedy, and I fell for it and it was exactly the wrong thing to do. But it was a decision that I made willingly. I wasn't tricked, or duped into it. And then once I found out I was pretty good at it, then I expanded the enterprise and went from there. So that was, you know, that's just the way it is. I mean, I saw somebody say something about, you know, Mike never takes acceptance of response, but I did read the book, you know, I, I'm thinking I'm losing everything, including my wife and instead, God gave me the greatest gift, you know, eternal life and returned me to my wife. We've just continued to grow since then.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I imagine that label of criminal mastermind is really a masterstroke by the police because as soon as you're labeled, that you're going into court and assumed to be guilty if you're being called at a criminal mastermind, and still, they have to prove the guilt and, and obviously, as you've said, that was there but that's a great way to put the jury on your side right from the start,
 
Mike Savage 
Right? This this type of crime will never have to we have to stand up to that stop. It'll never happen again. I mean, come on. I was before Bernie Madoff or any of these other people are doing anything and and it didn't stop or slow down. Anything people are going to send because they're centers, there's gonna be crime because there's criminals. You're not going to make an example. I mean, here in the US, and I'm not sure about Australia, we have the capital punishment or that sort of thing. But in the United States, certain states do. And there's even a federal law that allows under certain circumstances, but people are still killing people. Even though there's there's the capital punishment. So it speaks to the inherent evilness of man's heart. Mine in particular. I mean, it was a dark dark place, Rodney, it wasn't a again, I don't come across as Oh, I was a nice guy. I really was not a nice guy. There's a lot of things I wouldn't tell you about because I don't think the audience would be ready to hear that. When God reached down he had to come down a long way to grab hold of Mike Savage.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You said that you had to eventually admit your guilt to your wife. Was there a part of you that found it difficult to even admit that to yourself? Were you kidding yourself to some degree and thinking, well, this is all justified, I need to make a living and this is my way to do it? Or did you just know straight out, I'm absolutely guilty?
 
Mike Savage 
No, I lied to myself. I felt like I was caught up in something that I couldn't get out of. I'll be honest with you I prayed even when I was an unbeliever I remember praying the last couple of years before I got caught caught please get me out of this. This this is let me just get out of this. This is this is killing me this double life is I got to get out of this and the answer the prayer because I got I got arrested and put in prison. I was out of it. And I'm not making a joke there. I'm serious. I mean, that was that was an answered prayer. I see it now as an answered prayer. But at the time. My whole thought process was justification. I'm justifying this. This is what I do. If it was against the law, I would have been caught or I would know that it was against the law. All the justification in the world I would pour into my, but knowing deep down inside you know, that's a lie Mike. But going against that, no, no, no, I got to keep going. Gotta keep going. Gotta keep going. And I had people dependent on me, not just my family. But the crime people that I was they were dependent on me. So trying to stop wasn't really an option. I needed someone to help and God did help. I mean, there was that's a thorough cut when you go to prison. That's it. There's no coming back on this type of thing for me. I don't know what had been happened would have happened if I hadn't been saved in prison. I don't know what would have happened when I got out, or if I would have gotten out, you know, because it was just it was a dark, dark time where there's just no hope whatsoever of change. But initially, it was all justification. This is what I do. This is who I am. It's gonna be fine. I can handle this. All the lies you tell when you're trying to justify sin.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And as for the money that you are making, through your, your job as a criminal mastermind. All this money. How much did you make and how did you hide that away from the people that knew you?
 
Mike Savage 
in the 80s it really wasn't that much of a problem. Remember? There's no cell phones, there was no internet, the most advanced technology was faxing things from from one place to another. So moving money around was extremely easy transferring from one bank to a bank overseas or bank overseas to places in the United States. It wasn't a difficulty at all. I mean, that there weren't these limits on how much you can transfer now without reporting it to the Internal Revenue Service here in the US. So those laws and those things weren't in effect at that time. The amount that I was convicted of was $2 million, which back then was was quite, I mean, still quite a bit. Now. What am I saying? But I mean, back then it was even it was meant even more, but there was considerably more than that. That was moved around and that I got commissions on being able to do stuff. And the government traced virtually every penny of it and any property that we had that I had at the time, was seized and forfeited to the federal government. The banks overseas they talk about they have all the secrecy, you know, They rolled over instantly when the federal government asked them for the information. So they were able to track it, but it was they they got all the money that was left at the time of things that I hadn't bought or, or given to others or that sort of thing. It was it was millions of dollars. And it was it was very easy to do back.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned that you had an encounter with God whilst you were in prison, that he did answer the prayer that you prayed even before knowing if he was real or not and so often I find that that's the way that we pray for an answer, and we get the answer we didn't expect, but that is the answer that God brings.
 
Mike Savage 
Right.
 
Rodney Olsen 
How far into your jail term did that actually happen?
 
Mike Savage 
It was it was about two and a half years in. So the first I was first sent to the penitentiary in Lompoc, California. You know, it was classified as white collar criminal, all this kind of stuff, a civilian organized crime. They never proved any of that but I mean, they sent me to accidentally sent me to the penitentiary that they had misclassified my level of security supposed to be sent to a correctional institution which is a low, but I was sent to a very high level prison. So I was there for a short time till that got changed. And that I was transferred to the Federal Correctional Institution in Lompoc, which is right across the street from penitentiary. And I was assigned to the kitchen duty where I quickly ingratiated myself with some people there and began making alcohol for sale to the other prisoners. It's called pruno. And it was made with bread and yeast and sugar and I won't give the recipe out someone by trying it and going blind. But we would make that and so I had a little side hustle going on doing that I was also one of the guys making book, you know, for taking bets on football games and baseball games, basketball games, all that kind of stuff. So I fell right back into a criminal lifestyle. So I got into prison. So that was I was it was great. You know, it was where I got this. Now I can do this for the next you know, few years. But then about 18 months in I get transferred out of the kitchen where I was doing all this stuff to the chapels office the chaplains office and I became the lead chapel clerk. And I I didn't ask for the transfer obviously and and I went in and asked the chaplain, Why are you transferring me in here? Because I saw you on the on the compound he says, you know, Holy Spirit spoke to me about you and so I'm I wanted you to come work for me. And I said I look I don't know God I don't know any other stuff. You know, I've got time to do I'm not trying to sit around with a bunch of Bible thumpers or you know, Quran thumpers because like 13 different religious groups there you know from Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Wiccans, all these Catholics, everything that you can think of right? So I don't want to be around people. Come on. He says now just give it a try. So I'm there and I know you gave me the responsibility for being in service. And then after the services are over with making sure everything was straightened out, everything was sorted, everything's cleaned out, ready for the next group ready for whatever was going to be coming in. And so over a period of six months, I'm going to all these different services, right? And not just Protestant service, I'm going to all of them and thinking this is the worst job in the world. Everybody thinks they're right. Everybody's got away to God, and we got to do this. You got to do that. Come on, come on. So the thing that I hated most was going to Protestant services. Because there was always this altar call at the end, where you know, you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, come forward, say this prayer, you'll be saved and I'm like, okay, right. I'm sitting in the back. And it was it had been a particularly rugged week for me. I'd argued with Cynthia, I wanted to divorce or over the phone and so I want to divorce now you're not going to divorce me? She was she's just adamant, there's not gonna be a divorce. So I'm miserable. I've got, you know, a million years left on my sentence. I mean, this is 1990s I don't get out until 2007. And I'm thinking, you know, that's Buck Rogers time back since 2000. Oh, that's far, far away. And I'm miserable and depressed and angry because I can't make the pruno anymore. I'm upset about not being able to involve the gambling and do any of this stuff at all. And I sat through so many of these Protestant services, I probably could have given the sinner's prayer, even being an unbeliever. It's just and so this particular night, I'm angry, I'm depressed, frustrated, I'm sitting in the back waiting for these guys, just the volunteers that come in and, you know, volunteers before come in and see me and let me pray for you. They put their hands on, oh, God tells me you're not going to do any more of your sentence. You're going to go home soon. And you know, truly rockin it every single day of my sentence, so none of their prophesizing work but I didn't know at the time I was just irritated. Just Just a miserable person. As I'm sitting In the back and vice of rotten week, I said, You know what, God, I'll tell you what if you're real, if you really are real, and all this stuff I've been hearing for these months is true. Show me something. Just show me something. And the guy's going into the sinner's prayer at the same time, and I'm just seeing it together. Show me something. Because I don't. This is his last chance. Show me something. And Rodney, I started crying. I don't cry. I'm not a crier. Never been a crier. But I start crying not not like crying, but like, weeping. And all I can describe, and I don't expect everybody to go through this. I don't expect a lot of people necessarily gonna believe me when I say this, but suddenly it's like a synapse in my brain that had been dormant fired and all those sermons I sat through, and all those things teaching seminars that I sat through and all the stuff that I was so miserable having to do. I suddenly understood, I got it. I understood and I, and I believed. It made sense to me for some reason, while I'm weeping like a baby, this, I'm a big guy, I'm 6'3" at the time, I was like, 280, now I'm 220 Thank You, Jesus. But this big old guy weeping in the back, and actually believing for the first time, not only in God, that God loved me. And I just, that's how I that's how I got saved. As I don't everybody goes through that I'm just this is just what happened to me. It's just what happened to me. And it was at synapse firing. All that stuff filtered through. I could understand what was being said. I wanted a closer relationship with with this person, who when I asked him to prove something to me, made me cry. You know, I've just kept my head down, waiting for everybody to leave. Now, usually the volunteers come and we say something. Nobody said he left. And so I finished up cleaning up the thing left with back to the, to the to the cell, and just laid there quietly, trying to figure this stuff out. A couple of days later had to go back to work. I go in and see the chaplain, I say, Look, let me tell you what happened. So I told him, he said, I've been waiting for that. Like, it's just, I've been waiting for this, Mike, this is this is great news don't. And I said, Well, that's, that's great news for you. But I have no idea what to do. I said, I am I supposed to go to every Bible study? I'm supposed to go every service one, what am I supposed to do? And he said, Just be patient. This is let's let's let's pray together. And we did. And let's see what God would have you do. About a week later, I was enrolled in seminary because I wanted to know If, like in the first chapter of John, when it says that, that Jesus is God, I remembered from the Jehovah Witnesses when they read it so that Jesus was a god. So the first thing I wanted to do was see in the Greek what it actually said, he says, we're gonna need to go to seminary. I said, Yeah, give me the Strong's Concordance, and let's go through this. And so when I saw, I said, Okay, then I was in, then I, all I wanted to do was learn. And I was 30 something years old. And all I wanted to do was learn about God. And so over the next, you know, what was 13 years? That's all I did was I learned, I went to seminary. I got my degrees. I'm trying to figure out okay, when I get out what am I called to do? And the chaplain was gone by then other chaplains are talking, Oh, God, I'll show you that. But you're called to be a Pastor Mike. And I was saying, that's cool. You know, that's great. I only have to work on what Wednesday to do a Bible study. And then Sunday, I preach and I'm rest of the week mine pretty much, right? So I had obviously, I had no clue as to what a pastor did. But I became a teacher. And I began teaching the other inmates and stuff that I was learning. And, you know, I would preach, got to the point when I transferred Finally, when my custody dropped far enough down, I was transferred to a camp in Taft, California. And we put together a choir, and we would go out and sing in the local churches, and I would preach, and it was, so it Okay, well, you know, I'm not, I'm an okay, preacher, I don't know. But I'm really a teacher and a counselor because I was counseling guys and doing things like that. And so it was it was a metamorphosis, you know, over the over the period of time from from this cocoon of prison to where coming out, you know, what am I going to be? Am I going to be, you know, an ugly duck might be a butterfly, you know, what's this and you shouldn't be the person I want you to be like, and so that's kind of in a nutshell, from you just asked me about salvation, but I kind of felt like you need to see the whole story of how it played out. It wasn't a Oh, I've got this now. My life has changed. This is a road to Damascus thing. There was no road to Damascus God had me do every single day of my time. And my wife waited for me every single day of that time, and suffered greatly by doing so. But she stayed nonetheless. And I mean, that's kind of tell you, I mean, it's amazing that our youngest child became a police officer a year and a half ago. How's that? People say God doesn't have a sense of humor. How's that for a sense of humor, but I mean, it's just been kind of a that type of a metamorphosis is taking place.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you were able to undertake those seminary courses whilst you're in prison. I guess that's one way of making sure that you have the time to study.
 
Mike Savage 
Yeah, you know, I'm I don't know how many people you know, who have read all of Calvin's Institute's who've read most of the Pentecostal literature on preaching worship, teaching that story. thing, read through most of the word biblical commentaries, I went through all those. When I wasn't in the chapel. I was either at the weight pile, or I was in myself reading books. And if I could get away with reading books while I was on duty at the chapel, I did that too. I mean, I, I read every commentary I could get my hands on. I read different versions of the Bible. I learned the the Greek and the Hebrew writings, I can't pronounce it people laugh at me when I try and read it out loud because I didn't have anybody teaching me how to save the words. But that and I did some time with a priest and he was walking me through the Latin rights and Latin masses and, and going through those things. And so I had this this opportunity to get a world class education doing that. I was just amazed. You know, what I look back now. I'm amazed. But it was it was a rare opportunity. And I'm really glad I took that time to be able to read rather than you know, just In the stuff that I was starting out doing,
 
Rodney Olsen 
it certainly has been a big change around. And you mentioned that initial chaplain who saw you out there and just felt the Holy Spirit saying, There's something about this guy, you need some sort of connection. Do you ever get a chance to catch up with him once you left prison?
 
Mike Savage 
Thank goodness for Facebook, right? He found me. He knew when I was getting out, and we weren't allowed to communicate while I was in prison, but he had retired. And when I got out, he contacted me. So we have been in contact. This is just a wonderful, wonderful man of God. And there was there's another chaplain that I met at Taft that I'm still in contact with also he's retired as well. Just wonderful men of God that were instrumental in keeping me on the right path when I got to Taft, that there were some extreme rough edges because I'd been at higher level institutions and going into a camp it was entirely different. I had higher level institutions swearing is de rigueur, you know, it's part of the the process. So he, he had to work on my swearing, I had a tendency to, I felt like there were certain times where only a certain word would do you know, and I know that sounds strange for Christians but I have saved in prison I was educated in prison. So the the rough and he he worked as hard as he could to get those rough edges off of me and and I have to give him a lot of credit for, for having a lot of patience. There was times I would just I was amazed at some of the stuff that people would say that were the lower level institution. I mean, it's as low as it was no fence around it, not the walk off if you wanted to. But I mean, the people who come in were just straight from the streets where I've been in prison for over a decade. So if there was some some fisticuffs and other things that occurred just kind of leave it at that, but he I'm telling you, Rodney was the the Mike Savage of today is entirely different than the one that made it into that prison camp at the end for the final two years of a sense of Oh man, so that it's a It was a process and God always put the right people there to take care of that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
There is a thought for some people that once you come to meet with God, you accept Jesus. There's that salvation that we talk about in Christian circles, that life gets pretty sweet after that. But you're saying that that's not quite the case. You still had to serve out that sentence. And that goes against the way that some people would like to believe.
 
Mike Savage 
 I had guys tell me, you just need to claim your way out of here. You just need to claim your way out Mike because God loves you. I said, show me one person that's claimed their way out of prison. Just one. I said, let's take a look at the scriptures. You know, where did Paul end up? Where did Peter end up? In prison. As if there's anybody that could have walked out? It's those two but they chose to stay. Why? Because their faith in God. I have faith in God that he's going to make now there weren't times that I wasn't still talking to Father and saying, hey, look, you know, this is this is good to go. I'm ready to go. But the thing is that the books that I read one of them was the practice of his presence by Brother Lawrence. Are you familiar with that book?
 
Rodney Olsen 
I've certainly heard of it. Yes.
 
Mike Savage 
Oh, that's the only way I pray anymore is this constant conversation I mean, whether I'm, you know, scooping dog poop in the backyard, or whether I'm cooking dinner, or whether the Bible open in front of me, He and I are in a conversation. When I teach prayer. When I teach the theology of prayer, one of the first things I tell the students is, from here on out for this for this semester, when you finish praying to God, do not say amen. Unless you're praying over food, because we don't want the food to get cold but other than that, we're forbidden from saying amen, because that's like hanging up the phone. You're done. Maybe he's not. And so would you be in conversation? And the first time I said that, I got reported to the Academic Dean who calls me to his office, I'm teaching heresy. I explained to him what I said, and he says I've never thought of that. That's a good point. And so the first lesson is for them. I want you to sit there for one minute, close your eyes and think about nothing but God just just got for one minute. Everything else is gone. Close your eyes. I'm timing. And of course, I'm a big guy. So these students are intimidating in prison. So they are their best right? At the end of one minute, okay, who was able to keep their mind on God for one minute without any intrusive thoughts, and whoever raises their hand, I'm going to call a liar, because there was no way you could do that. It takes practice. It takes effort. It takes building a relationship where you can be in conversation, and I learned that from Brother Lawrence. And Brother Lawrence said that even when he would forget when he would get caught up in the mundane things of life, God would call him back and we've got did call him back by the Lord's didn't have to fall down and apologize, guys, I know how you're from. Let's just continue where you left off. And they would have that communication. The same way Jesus did with his disciples when they were walking to me that was prayer. They're walking and talking to me, you're talking to God, that's perfect. He's talking back. That's the best form of prayer. So Those types of books made a big difference in my life. I didn't learn that in seminary. I just found the book and read it. It happened to be in the prison library. And it was it was a life changer for me. I mean, I walk around the backyard talking to God out loud. And occasionally some of the neighbors say you're talking to me. I know. Sorry. I was just thinking out loud cuz I don't tell him talking to God because I don't want him to think I'm crazy, right? But I do. Talk to him just like that every day. Walk around the house, my dogs will look at me. They know he's talking to God. He's not talking to us. My wife puts up with it, which is brilliant. I don't even realize I'm talking out loud to God but he brought me through so much. Why am I gonna give up on him now? Why? Why wouldn't I keep praying that way? Is our life terrific? Yeah. Because we're together. Doesn't mean we have millions of dollars or any of that type of thing. Sometimes it's tough to find a job, you know, for an ex con, who's a professor, an adjunct professor, rather than being a tenured professor. Sometimes it's tough, but he's never let us down. We went through hurricane Harvey a few years ago had bunch of stuff destroyed. God built it right back up. Went through another hurricane a couple of months ago. God was right there with his to do it again. And so it's kind of hard to doubt him. After all I've been through over the time being in prison and looking back and seeing what He did, it is hard to doubt that He's not going to do the right thing moving forward. So I mean, why would I doubt that will be the reason for that. He's never let me down before Why would he suddenly do that?
 
Rodney Olsen 
At the end of your sentence, you're released and even though your wife Cynthia has stood by you all this time, was it like studying a new relationship coming out and having to set boundaries again and, and just begin again, from a new point?
 
Mike Savage 
To a degree. Now understand when I left to go to prison, there was no cell phones, internet. Starbucks was just kind of starting type of stuff in California. When I get out, she hands me a cell phone. As I don't need his cell phone. I need to call anybody No, for 15 years you had to call me I wouldn't be able to call you. Okay. All right, I'm cell phone. I thought the internet was like a big library that everything was true on it. You can look stuff up. So I was anxious to to try that. But my behavior in prison. I'll give you an example. I got home shortly before Thanksgiving. And on Thanksgiving, the whole family came over right there stand in the house and I was talking all this. Well, 10 o'clock at night, you know, I was tired. So I went to bed. And Rodney when I say went to bed. I just got up and left and went to the bedroom, went to bed. And I got up the next morning. And Cynthia says, Are you mad? I said mad, what would I be mad about? I'm happy. I'm home. You know, this is great. I'm happy to be with you. You went to bed last night. You didn't say good night to anyone. Well in prison, you don't go around. Okay, night night, everybody. I didn't even dawn on me and I suddenly realize That that, you know, they talk about being institutionalized the idea that you become used to routines and institutions so you carry them with you. That's exactly what it happened. And so I had to learn to do those sort of things. Another example of that a few weeks later, Cynthia and our youngest son, we're going to the grocery store, get out the car, walk in a parking lot. This lady comes running up to Cynthia with a clipboard, asking if she registered to vote. And Cynthia is very polite, very elegant woman professional. She's director of case management for three hospitals here in Corpus Christi. Just a terrific lady. She goes, Yes, I have. Thank you. Okay. And so Jessie and I are beginning to talk. I mean, he's, he's a teenager. And so we were kind of struggling to establish a rapport. Me being there all the time. So we're talking about sports, we're talking about American football. And so we're going back and forth about football. We're still talking or walking up the street. There. All of a sudden ladies in front of me says, Did you register to vote? I just walked around or continue talking to Jesse. And we kept going. She comes around a second time gets right in front of me. I said, Did you register to vote? And I just walk around again, still talking to Jesse, third time, almost to the store. She She comes around, answer me, did you register to vote, but you don't point at people in prison like that you don't get in their face like that. I mean, it's just not something that's done unless you're looking for a fight. And so I informed her loudly that I was an ex con, I wasn't going to be able to vote, and that I just had 15 years in prison and the she needed to not stand in front of it. Only I used a lot of swear words to do it loudly and I'm a Christian at the time. Okay. But this is I'm acting, I'm acting out, you know, like, and so she kind of withers and goes away. I see Cynthia pull up the hood on her jacket and go into the store quickly. Jesse is my youngest son just beaming. He's, he's so happy. smiling. His old man just, you know, swore at this lady. I, you know, there's a little bit of the Holy Spirit convicting me. But sometimes the Holy Spirit wouldn't convict me until there was a lesson that had to be learned in the right lesson, the right person that we learned that lesson was there. Excuse me. Well, when I walk in, Cynthia's got her hood up. Got the grocery cart, trying to speed away, Hey, where are you going? Come here, come here. Let me let me push that for you. And it's what's wrong? And she said, you just you realize that you just very loudly swore at this lady and told everyone in hearing range that you're an ex con. Yeah. She said, there's nothing wrong with that, other than the swearing and being loud is nothing wrong being an ex con. But she says the people who heard you, they don't know what you did to go to prison. So they might think they're in the presence of a murderer or rapist or child abuser or something like that. You might consider that in the future beforehand. And that's when the Holy Spirit came said, Yeah, like, come on. Settle down. trust in me. Let me guide you a little. I had to learn that lesson that way. So there were a couple of times that I can remember right off the top of my head. That things did not go well. Yeah, I was a Christian. Yeah, I was saved. Yes, I believe all of those things, but I still had to change coming out of prison. So Cynthia and I, my relationship was great. She would support me through anything. But the children were kind of like, Who is this guy? Now? Well, Jessie loved the idea of the tough guy, ex con dad coming out. Daughter, not as much, oldest son not as much. So I had to learn to readapt into society. At the same time, be true to God, and be true to who he made me, which is sometimes I can be maybe a little loud or sometimes I can be a little, you know, demonstrative and in how I talk and I don't mean swearing, but I mean, I get close. Stop. I hardly ever do it from the pulpit anymore, right? No, I'm just kidding. I've. But it's one of those things I had to get back into me. Because I was a guy from the 80s coming out in 2007. You know, I it was rough inside prison. I mean, it's not I've been through riots. I've been through solitary confinement more times than I can count, but I never went to solitary confinement until after I was a Christian. Because I was always under suspicion for something because with the stuff that I used to do, I wasn't doing more so he must be doing something worse. So there was a change and things had to occur and I had to grow as a person as God wanted me to be outside of prison. And and that's that's been an ongoing process.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Tell me a little of what life is like now. Very different to those prison days. And I'm sure that God is still teaching you lessons. But what does life look like for you today?
 
Mike Savage 
When I turned 60, which was a year and a half ago. I thought, Okay, that's it. I'm done. You know, that's it. It's 60 that's old. You're finished. You know, we're going to, okay, I'm going to retire, and then slowly fade away. But it's, it's it hasn't been that way at all. I wrote the memoir. I've written a novel that I'm working on now. I finished up a dissertation for my doctorate in psychology over the last few years. And so today I'm an adjunct professor, I teach online, occasionally I go into the classroom. I enjoy being in the classroom. I enjoy teaching students and and challenging them and having fun with them. But I enjoy the time alone with God. I can see what was so appealing to to Francis Merton and his writings a Roman Catholic monk, a Trappist monk, about that this solitude of being God. And so there are days when I have contact with them. No one but Cynthia, and I can, I'm content with that. There are other days that I'll have me doing interviews, or we'll be interviewing people have classes, and I'm busy going back and forth. And it's fine. But any problems that arise, I always put into the perspective of what I've been through in the past and how God was faithful with that. And I've been in prison riots where, you know, things got ugly in a hurry, and he still protected me. And so, I always give the example of this way in prison when they say that brother is gonna stab you in the back. They mean it literally. It's not like it's not a metaphor of, he's going to say something bad about you. So there's this perspective that I've been that I've been given by God, that it's okay to be alone. Because you're not alone because you're with God. It's okay if if people don't always remember your name or they're not struck by this interview or by reading one of your books are. That's okay. That's okay. And so my life is one of pleasant solitude at times of pleasant action at times, but of trying my best to be led by God and whatever he wants me to do it and sometimes that's moment to moment because sometimes I can get a little restless, I'll admit. And that's time of Okay, we'll pick up the guitar. You know, let's just talk Mike why you play your little chords, or, you know, let's let's write some more. Let's edit some more. This is a quiet more contemplative time and I've described it to Cynthia as being in solitary confinement, with privileges. But I mean, it's a good life. Our children are all grown. We have five grand sons. It's an enjoyable life because I see it through how God wants me to see it in times that I get restless. I realize I'm just being kind of a knucklehead and just to settle down.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm going to put some links to your website in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet. But for anyone listening, what's the easiest way for them to get in touch with you? They want to pick up a copy of your book and delve further into your story or listen to the podcast. Where should they go?
 
Mike Savage 
Well, I made it pretty simple. If they want to buy the book, it's on Amazon. It's called a prisoner's perspective, the redemption of a criminal mastermind. So it's right there on Amazon. If you're interested in finding out more about me or for whatever reason that may be, you can go to MikeSavageBooks.com. That's, that's the website and I'm also on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. And I'm not a master of any of those, but I am capable of returning messages. So if I can at least do that, but the that's the best way to get in touch. I appreciate your you're putting those out there. Thank you, Rodney very much,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Mike. It has been a delight hearing your story to hear where you've come from and where God has you headed and I'm sure that the story is not over yet but thank you so much for your time today on Bleeding Daylight.
 
Mike Savage 
Thank you very much.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

Melinda Tankard Reist founded Collective Shout ten years ago, a grassroots campaigns movement for a world free of sexploitation in all its forms. She's an author, speaker, media commentator, blogger and advocate for women and girls. She's best known for her work addressing sexualization, objectification, harms of pornography, sexual exploitation, trafficking, and violence against women.
 
 
 
Melinda Tankard Reist Website: https://melindatankardreist.com/
Collective Shout Website: https://www.collectiveshout.org/
Collective Shout Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/collectiveshout
Collective Shout Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/collective.shout/
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I need to warn you that today’s episode of Bleeding Daylight may be confronting at times, but it focusses on issues that affect us all. They’re also issues that give each one of us opportunity to shine light into some very dark places and to make our world more compassionate with greater respect and equality for all.
 
My guest founded Collective Shout ten years ago, a grassroots campaigns movement for a world free of sexploitation in all its forms. This is an episode that should be heard by many, especially parents. I encourage you to share it widely so that we can all take action to draw closer to the kind of world we long to see.
 
Constant abuse and even death threats have become common occurrences for Melinda Tankard Reist. Those reactions only serve to highlight the seriousness of the topics that she raises in our society. She's an author, speaker, media commentator, blogger and advocate for women and girls. She's best known for her work addressing sexualization, objectification, harms of pornography, sexual exploitation, trafficking, and violence against women. I'm so pleased to have her joining me on bleeding daylight. Melinda, thank you so much for your time.
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Thanks for having me. Thanks for your interest.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm interested in knowing where your passion for standing against this kind of exploitation actually began.
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Look, it probably began in my hometown growing up in a country town in Victoria and I started to see the mistreatment of women in my community. I became a journalist from the age of 16 and began to document some of that mistreatment. One of the first pieces I ever wrote was about the opening of a women's refuge in my town for victims of violence. I also noticed that mistreatment of Indigenous women and migrant women. I was then awarded a scholarship to study journalism in the US and that I ended up traveling globally and witnessed for myself the second class status of women around the world, returned to Australia and continue to document issues affecting women and girls, that I wrote my book Getting Real: Challenging the sexualisation of girls, and that's really where this work took off. And I was asked look where's the grassroots movement against everything you've described, and that's how Collective Shout came about 10 years ago.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's interesting that there are a number of issues that you're looking at there, that are just obvious that these are harming but I think a lot of what you call to the surface are those things that just go past us without us recognising what's going on. What are some of the themes that you think that most people don't understand are harmful to women?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
I'm really glad you've asked me this, Rodney, because I've always believed that I was meant to document issues that were going under the radar. I've written six books now. And I felt led I suppose to expose things that were harmful in the hope that we might wake up and do something about those things. So the epidemic of violence against women globally, if you look at female genital mutilation, bride burning, dowry deaths, if you look at trafficking in the bodies of women and girls into the global sex industry, if you will. With the fact that girls globally are more often denied education and and kept in a very controlled and submissive environment, the way that pornography is shaping and molding attitudes and behaviors, that teaches boys that they have a sense of entitlement to the bodies of women and girls and teaches girls that they exist primarily for male sexual gratification and pleasure. And that's my main focus at present is exposing how we are warping the sexuality of an entire generation, how we are contributing to violence and brutality and sexual cruelty,. callousness, in what we are presenting as normal sex, and this is stuff starting earlier and earlier. So yeah, I've just felt that I'm supposed to bring these issues to the light in the hope that we can build an uprising, a global rebellion, if you like, against these harmful cultural scripts and harmful dictates which are causing so much documented damage.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned the the use of pornography and you campaigned very strongly against it. So how do you respond to those who would perhaps say, Well, if you don't like it, don't use it?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
That's like saying if you don't like pollution don't breathe it. You know, the fact is that we live in porn culture. We're trying to raise healthy, happy, resilient children in a pornified landscape that's floor to ceiling. It's everywhere. It's just a ridiculous nonsensical, stupid argument, to say, you know, close your eyes and don't don't look, because the research is solid, on the way that pornography contributes to violence against women, the way that it contributes to rape myth that girls actually want to be raped that no actually means yes. The way that it contributes to sexual harassment. Girls tell me in every school I go to about being groped at school about being asked for naked selfies about being asked for sexual acts in the school playground, being bullied to behave in to take up pornified roles and behaviors. So look, I just have no time for that argument. The fact is that the world is being indoctrinated by a porn, it's a propaganda. It's hate speech, cultural norms are being taught through pornography and that affects all of us.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned about some of that starting at school. How young are we talking for those young girls that are being approached in this way?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
I'm now taking my message into primary schools, which I didn't envision when I first started out and that's the tragedy of it. Even children now, but hey, In inappropriate ways, they're acting out sexually, what they have seen in pornography or sometimes searching for it, sometimes innocently, putting in a search term looking for their favorite cartoon character. All roads lead to porn and it's not a matter of if my child will see porn, it's a matter of when. I would say most commonly year seven year eights. Now girls tell me that they're being approached, they're being sexually harassed, they're being groped, they're being touched. They're having photos taken down their blouses up their skirts, and the real tragedy is they think this is normal. They think they should just have to put up with it. And I have girls say to me, we didn't know we were allowed to say no. They get given a hard time for standing up for themselves, but then the whole culture tells them that being degraded is sexy. That you should behave in these ways if you want to be seen as free and sexually liberated and it's not just through overt porn sites, it's throughout the culture everywhere and music, fashion games, advertising marketing, in a shopping center with floor to ceiling quantified portrayals of, of women presenting this very harmful normative stereotype about women and what women and girls are good for.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Any of us who have seen on Facebook, Collective Shout, that movement that you're talking about that you founded, would have seen some very disturbing images of girls younger and younger being presented in a sexualized way. And the thing I think that disturbs me the most is oftentimes, these are through things like Instagram accounts that are run by these girls' mothers. How can they not understand the harm that they're causing?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Yes, we have a global campaign at against Instagram under the hashtag wake up Instagram. We've been calling out Instagram for facilitating predators. We have exposed hundreds of predators operating on Instagram contacting the underage girls, asking them to chat privately, posting sexual fantasies publicly about these girls, capturing their images and sending those images to designated websites for these men and their their friends. And tragically Instagrams become a predators paradise. Sometimes the girls appear to be operating their own accounts, sometimes it appears to be a parent, but sometimes it's clear these girls are being trafficked to being a being sold on online. And we've said to Instagram You know, this is just not good enough. You claim to care about children and child safety. But look at what we've exposed and my team is very small, you know? We've captured imagery of men live masturbating to schoolgirls in their school uniforms, visible school uniforms, we can identify the school. And the girl will invite anyone to chat with them, video chats, but they don't know who's behind the handle of those who attend the chat until she sees what they're doing. And it's, it's just so common. We don't think that any parent should have their child on Instagram to be honest. It's just too too dangerous. Most of the grooming now is happening online. Children have been groomed by predators in places that a lot of parents think are safe for their child and they're just not.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We hear from time to time people who are up in arms about various online platforms such as tik tok and others, but then you have that mainstream one Instagram and I guess that would be showing to a lot of people thinking well, I thought that that was a safe place and and they would think that certain online platforms are safe and yet it doesn't seem that any of them are
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
now That's right. I'm in tic tocs full of full of porn now as well and girls imitating what they're seeing in in porn inspired music videos, for example, parents have to be across what's going on online. However, having said that, it's too much for us. You know, it takes a village to raise a child, we can't monitor our child 24 hours a day, even if they're not being exposed to these harmful messages at home, what happens when they're on the school bus? What happens when they're at school camp, what happens when they're in the school yard or visiting a friend, on a weekend parents tell us this is how their child was often exposed in the first instance. And that's why we need our governments and our regulatory bodies and the heads of these things. big tech corporations to actually take child sexual exploitation seriously. One good outcome is that we are now in conversation with some of these global corporations, Instagram and Facebook where we're meeting with now. They're aware of our concerns, they know they need to do something to address them. We're also now in conversation with Alibaba after exposing the sale of child sexual abuse dolls, replica children, replica infants, lifelike babies and toddlers being sold through one of the biggest global shopping apps and online platforms in the world. And now they've come to us after we got those dolls down off their platform and asked for our input as to how they can do better. So there are some good things happening. I have to remind myself of that most days but you know, it's going to take a lot more before our children are safe online,
 
Rodney Olsen 
There is that online threat but another disturbing thing is you can just walk through a shopping center and you're seeing images there on shop fronts or on advertising billboards, within shopping centers that I guess 10 years ago probably would have been the sorts of things that would have appeared in pornography magazines.
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Yeah, what we've seen now is just the pornification of culture, that wall to wall hyper sexualized images and messages which contribute to the second class status of women. The biggest study on the objectification of women in the world and meta analysis of all of the existing global research found that objectified portrayals of women contribute to a diminished view of women's competence, morality and humanity. That's how serious this issue is and yet we have the CEO's of our property groups, the shopping centres like Westfield, who are essentially landlords to the tenants Honey Birdette in this case the sex shop, which features floor to ceiling depictions of semi naked women, sexually suggestive poses. Honey Birdette is a repeat corporate offender. They continually act in breach of the Australian Association of National Advertisers code of ethics. However, there are no penalties for non compliance. There are no fines, there's no powers to enforce the rulings of ad standards. So the CEOs actually have the gall to call themselves Male Champions of Change. Now Male Champions of Change is an initiative to get a CEOs, male CEOs, to sign up to say we will do all in our power to stamp out sexism in our communities in our shopping centers and yet, they do nothing to rein in the unethical harmful behavior of their very own tenants. So, you know, we just don't buy it. We know parents that are boycotting the shopping centers, they don't want to go there, they don't want their kids exposed to these images. And that's an ongoing campaign that collective shot is running.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It sounds like these so called leaders of change, are actually just jumping on a bandwagon that they expect will get them some brownie points and yet people can see right through it,
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
We call it pinkwashing. You know, you look like you care, but what are you actually doing? And that's why we're that's why we're exposing the double standards.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And this seems to be the case in a number of instances where businesses that have a number of arms will try and look caring, they'll try and look like they're trying to bring about healthy change with one brand and yet, with another brand, they're selling exactly what they're supposedly against.
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Exactly. And that's why we have a very big emphasis that present on corporate social responsibility on your values and your mission statements. If you claim to care about the community, if you claim to care about women and girls and children, then you know you can't have it both ways. Often we do, what we do is just quote their own vision and value statements back to them. and point out that they're not actually living this out. We've done the same in a campaign to ethical super funds. We have contacted 23, I think at last count ethical super investment funds, who invest in these property groups and yet claim to have, you know, very high standards around investment. You won't invest in tobacco, gambling, alcohol, those sorts of things and yet even some of the faith based super funds are still investing in shopping centers, which are hosting sexism. So we're calling out that double standard is.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Well, one of the words that I hear so often, when any of these sorts of issues are raised is empowerment. We hear of businesses who profit from what you call sexual objectification say that they are empowering women. So what's your response to those voices?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Well, it's just, it's just not true. That's just not true. And anyone following our work will see how how we have documented that that's not true. For example, we put in a major submission to the Australian Human Rights Commission's inquiry into sexual harassment. It's a relatively recent inquiry, you can find that submission and many others on our website, and we documented all of the links between sexualization and objectification of women and girls, right through to sexist attitudes, the formation of sexist attitudes contributing to sexual behaviors, inappropriate behavior, contributing to violence against women. We draw those links, we join the dots If you like and say that you can't just address, you know, say, the glass ceiling without addressing the way harmful corporate behaviors contribute to demonstrable harms to women and girls. So yeah, forget about you your language, let's look at what you're actually doing.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And yet many young women seem to have bought that lie of empowerment. And so anything that they do that is sexualized, they still keep under that banner of empowerment, not realizing that it's actually disempowerment.
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
That girls have been lied to from the moment they're born. and empowerment, liberation freedom has been presented to them, really, by the sex industry or sex industry messaging, telling them that empowerment means, you know, adopting pornified roles and behaviors. Flashing your breasts in public providing sexual acts to boys being able to pole dance. This is not true empowerment. And again our work over a decade has been to try to help young women to to see through to see through that and to value themselves to something other than being able to attract the male gaze and being able to attract sexual attention. What about your gifts, your abilities, your talents, your art, your poetry, your desire to make a difference in the world, about you know, those kind of character traits that we so need in the world today, you know, basic empathy. You know, we're driving the empathy out of young people, particularly boys, and we've been working hard to help girls see that they are more than just porn fantasy props, that they that they deserve more that they are allowed to stand up for themselves and demand better and not conform to this these toxic cultural messages which, again, the research says is harmful to them. It's not just my opinion, it's what the research demonstrates. So fortunately, we have more young women now joining our movement. I get girls in school saying, you know, just so grateful to hear a different message, a countercultural messenger, a critique and dissection of the culture they live in. often they'll say, Oh, we thought there was something wrong with us individually, for not wanting to do all of these things. But then they realized that actually, no, this is all education and training provided by a sexed up world, which is harmful to them. And that's our only hope. I think we can help young people to resist upon culture to rise up against it and to demand something better for themselves, their friends, their little brothers, their little sisters and their future children.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And these young women who hear this message it must lift an enormous burden off their shoulders to know that they don't have to acting this way,
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Because it's the most probably the most rewarding aspect of my work is to see that realization to see the lights go on and for them to say, Oh, we don't actually have to put up with this, well, you know, we can say, No, we can just not conform to this pressure, this terrible pressure that they are under. And so, you know, even only if only a small number of girls decide to live differently, and not to conform and say they have the right to say no. And again, if more boys decide to change, to resist toxic masculinity, to choose to be men of integrity and empathy, that's going to gonna make a massive difference. You know, it has to be the boys have to change as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're touching on the boys and their responsibility as well and just in the same way that our young women have swallowed that lie that society has sold them, so have the young men and yet they don't realize it either. They somehow feel that this is what being a man is about and yet they've been sold a lie too.
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Boys have been sold a lie and the research shows that, for example, if they're learning about sexuality through porn, it's corrosive to connection. It's disconnects them emotionally, it's dumps their sexuality. It molds them in a hollow and callous understanding of sexuality. their attitudes become more cruel and more degrading. They believe that they're dominant and that girls should be submissive and this is an absolute tragedy. They won't know what true love and connection and intimacy and sensuality look like they may not ever experience it unless they make a radical change. And I interview boys on this subject and they say things like a porn contributed to me or made me undress every girl I met you know, in my mind. I saw every girl as a sex object, that they lost their ability to just be friends with girls. They were fantasizing about them. They also said that they started to respond to computers rather than to actual human beings. So they get turned on just by seeing this inanimate object of the computer, knowing what they could discover, you know, on the screen. And so real women and girls just can't can't compete with that, and why should they have to? But fortunately, there's a growing movement of men and boys around the world who are resisting porn, and who wants something better for themselves and for the women in their lives?
 
Rodney Olsen 
 I would imagine that there's some parents listening, who are now very alarmed at what they're hearing and thinking, What do I do? How do I actually speak to my young people to my young girl or to my young boy about these sorts of things you've already highlighted. They can't escape. online because if it's not at home, and they'll see it somewhere else. So how do we go about preparing our young people for the reality of the world ahead?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Well, we have to act personally and we have to act politically. Personally obviously setting standards in the home. not tolerating porn in the home, not tolerating violent, videos, violent, violent music, looking for teachable moments, you're out you're here and inappropriate ad on the radio or you see pornified portrayals of women in the shopping centers use it as a discussion point. Obviously, modeling what respect based relationships look like in the home, not tolerating put downs or so called jokes about bodies, how the system might be looking at the moment or yet put down to about how she might look. There's some of the things obviously having the computer in a public place in the home, not allowing kids on screens behind closed doors, having rules around devices, many parents feel that they've lost control with the devices. Some parents tell me that, you know, they all hand in their phones at a certain time every night so the family can do other things. Kids can, you know, radical idea, read a book, and just have that non screen time in the evenings. But then, you know, we have to take it further. It's too much for parents on their own. So, of course, I'm going to say sign up to Collective Shout and get involved. Get involved in cultural change and social transformation call on our governments to do better. And we elect them to represent us we elect them to defend the most vulnerable surely that has to be our children. So we've been running campaigns for example, to get an age verification system, so that kids just can't enter torture porn right? porn, sadism porn, with you know, just one click because there's no proof of age required. So you're acting personally acting politically having those difficult conversations. If we're not talking to our kids about these things someone else will be and they may not share our values for our, our children. So even though we don't want to, we'd rather not have to, we have to start having these conversations when the children are young. I have resources on this you can find on my website, How to Talk to Your Kids About Porn is a very popular book that I have available. And another book is called Good Pictures, Bad Pictures which you read with your child and a young age to help them know that this is not appropriate and what to do if they see an image because it's inevitable they will see something. So we don't want them to feel ashamed. If they feel ashamed they won't tell us what they've seen. So we prepare them in advance for what they might come across and how to deal with that. I saw a really good tip just a couple of days ago and save the kid system another kid or have a look at this at school, then the child pauses and says, you know, well, I don't want to or, you know, don't just put that in my face just a really practical way, so that the child can just sort of catch their breath and not get exposed to something, because this is what's happening. And we need all the help we can get to prepare our children to strengthen them, and to protect them from the harms of pornography.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We're talking mainly at the moment about children or young people. Once people get to a certain age, of course, there would be some who would say all bets are off. They would say that sex is something natural, and it should be expressed, how ever an individual might decide what are your thoughts on that?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Of course sex is natural. No one's disagreeing with that but there's expressions of sexuality that's healthy and has expressions that that aren't and that's what we're seeing. We're seeing porn sex, we're seeing aggressive acts expected from primarily from women and girls. Girls, telling me men expect, boys expect to treat them violently, including some of the signature signature acts that we see in porn, like choking and gagging and other things I won't describe more cruelty more degrading and so yes, there's nothing wrong with sexuality but porn isn't teaching healthy sexuality and if women and girls are being harmed, that's not an expression of healthy sexuality, it's quite the opposite.
 
Rodney Olsen 
What about sex work and prostitution? What should we think about those sorts of issues?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
I wrote a book on this issue called Prostitution Narrative Stories of Survival in the Sex Trade and that was about woman first person accounts of women who have exited the sex industry and told the truth about it. So of course, were opposed to the profiting the sale of the bodies of women and girls in this global industrial complex trading in the bodies of women or girls, you know, you don't have trafficking without the sex industry, you don't have trafficking without without brothels because the demand is so, so high. It's an absolute tragedy. It's modern day slavery. And of course, we don't support that either. And we have the evidence that testimonials of women who were there who were in it, and now speak to the truth about what they were expected to do. And the brutality, the cruelty, the degradation, the suffering, the long term, post traumatic stress, and trauma, which is all well documented now.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I mentioned in the opening that you've received a number of threats and harassment over time. Where does the bulk of this harassment come from? Who are the people that are targeting you in this way?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Mostly men, and from people who have a vested interest in the way things are why Would they react unless they felt we were a threat over the weekend, we had around 1000 comments, most of them abusive. And this had come about as a result of a campaign we ran to get a hate page down off Instagram called Girls Getting Hurt and in this page, they feature images of women and girls being hurt, being injured. And it's all meant to be hilarious. So we actually got this page off Instagram and the ringleaders behind that page then initiated a cyber attack on us and across all of our platforms, and on posts that were directly related to our campaign to get this page off, and that's how that's how they operate. I mean, the main ringleader behind it as pictures of himself with his wife and children in it his profile. So you know, you have to wonder what life's like for them. But you know, I've long held the view that as Paul Keating used to say, the dogs may bark, but the caravan rolls on and you just keep rolling on you just you've got the dogs, you can get the tires, but you just keep on moving. And, you know, I don't spend a I don't look up my now to put my name into a search engine. I don't look at comments on articles I've, I've written, you know, in the public domain, I just can't expend my emotional energy, which is they want that, you know, they want to think that they've got to you. So we've made a bit of fun of it. We've shared some of the comments over the last 24 hours and there's there's some that are pretty, pretty funny. They're not meant to be funny. Anyone having a look at my Facebook will see why we're why we're saying that. So look, we, we debrief all the time, me and my team, we take time out when we need to, we do what we need to, to survive it. And just to press on, you know, there's a goal and we've got our eyes on it, and we just keep pressing on. They've been trying to destroy us for a decade now. And it hasn't been successful. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not trying to make light of, of those attacks, because often they're very personal. They're often threatening. They're often disgusting, but we just, we just keep going.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And that's the thing I want to find out from you. You're totally immersed in a world where you're seeing some of the darker side of humanity, you're, you're plunging into depths that most of us will only scratch the surface of, how do you keep your head above water? How do you actually start to see the light in the world beyond all this darkness that you're encountering?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Look, I've had to become very intentional about that because you do pay a price for staring into the abyss every day. Staring into the abyss, darkness and exposing it all the time and it does affect you. So I, I hike. I just disappear into the bush with a backpack sometimes on my own sometimes with friends. You know, I spent as much time in nature as I can. The sun's out today that always helps. I tried to start the day with some kind of you know, just contemplations, spiritual reading just to sort of set my brain so that I'm not straight into the porn, although it's that, you know, pretty quickly. I'm usually on I'm usually on Twitter pretty quickly, but I try to start with something else. I debrief with my friends. We actually have a lot of fun, which people might find hard to believe, but we do have a lot of laughs I get to work with very funny, very funny, smart, intelligent, passionate women. And I get the pleasure I get the pure privilege of speaking to thousands of young people a year and seeing seeing lives changed without without me And I get the privilege of seeing major victories, like last year was one of the biggest years we've ever had one victory after another, just in the last two months, we've had seven, seven wins in a row. And there's an adrenaline rush to that, you know, it's enjoyable, it's rewarding when you get those victories. So those things all help to, to balance out to make up for the harmful side of it. At the end of the year, I take a long break, I turn my phone off. I try not to do any work related reading. I've had I've been forced to take a long period of time off at the end of the year to be able to renew and get back into it in the new year.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm wondering what action, and you've touched on this a number of times and various aspects of it, but what action can the average person take against this multimillion dollar industry of exploitation? What can we do?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Well know the facts know the truth. Don't buy into it. Don't buy the sexualised clothing, don't buy the violent music products don't allow that harmful industry to suck the life out of your children, protect them do all you can to protect them from porn have have every filtering device on. One that's recommended to me is his Family Zone, which seems to be pretty comprehensive. But as I said, we have to add broader than that and sign join Collective Shout, we make it easy for you to complain. We show you what the problem is, and we give you the steps to address it and do not think that one voice doesn't make a difference. We have seen campaigns won when one person has spoken out. Some of our quickest wins have been in two or three hours. One of the most common things people say to us is you helped me to be brave. In the past, I thought it was just me. I thought I was on my own. I thought there was something wrong with me. Now I've realized that I'm backed by thousands of people. And I can go out and say something I can take up my rightful place in the public square and speak, you know, we live here too. And we can't afford to sacrifice, especially our children to the global sex industry. We can't just stand back and allow that to happen. So it's time to get some power back and Collective Shout will give that give that to you. And you can be part of this what's becoming a global movement now against sexual exploitation in all its forms. Get on board collectiveshout.org, sign up and join our Facebook pages. We're on Twitter, we're on Instagram we're on LinkedIn and rather than sort of curse the darkness get involved in bringing about social transformation with us.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'll certainly put links in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net for Collective Shout so that people can get there, also to your website so people can grab hold of some of the books that you're talking about. I do find it interesting that a lot of the people that we see reacting and talking on your Facebook page are, of course, women do men sometimes feel that they don't have the right to speak into an issue that is seen as a women's issue like this. How do we empower men who want to stop this as well? How do we empower them to actually make a difference?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Well, I don't know why it should be seen as a women's issue. It's a community issue. Because we need men to speak out. We need men to call out the bad behavior. We need men to stop being bystanders and not saying anything. We need men to stop joking along and laughing and underplaying what's really happening calling out sexually inappropriate behavior, sexist jokes, comments about women's bodies, calling it out. Something I find frustrating is when men ask me what are you doing for men or what are you doing for men? You know, I'm I'm really running this outfit with three women. That's it. And you know, we're running global campaigns, it's time for men to step up to recognize that they have to do something. Unfortunately, we have many good men in our movement. speaking out on this, I have young men working with me in schools now, Daniel. There's no excuse for, for not getting involved. Please get involved. We need everyone.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Do you think that's part of the problem that men don't see this as as their issue that they see it as a women's issue when actually it's going to provide them with with better relationships with the women that they love?
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Well, I'm just having trouble understanding why it would be just seen as a as a women's issue. This is a whole of society issue. Their children are being deformed and twisted into harmful ideas about bodies, relationships and sexuality. If they don't speak about this, their boys will be the sexual abusers of the future because men need to be involved, they need to demonstrate what healthy masculinity looks like. So the boys have some kind of role model. I mean men need to ask themselves this question. Why are boys now in the biggest cohort of sexual abusers, teenage boys now, why why is that? Why have we reneged on our responsibility to form boys in healthy ways? That question has to be asked by anyone who cares about our young people and where society is going. Why is this now so common that boys are featuring in our sexual assault statistics? Why's that? Now I'm going to say a big factor is the conditioning that porn has given them and the lack of guidance, the lack of inputting alternative ways to be men. I've written on this as well, when there was criticism of the Gillette ad The best a man can get. And I took a different different view, I believe the ad was encouraging men to act higher. Even though of course, you know, of course, it's to try and sell stuff, but I thought the overall message was quite quite good. You know, I just think this, this is an outstanding, unanswered question of our times. So please, men, please get on board. So some of the some of us women are getting a little bit, a little bit weary. And there's lots of ways to get involved. You may not want to be sort of a loud mouth activist, and you don't have to there's so many other ways to be involved. We need volunteers, we need help with website with, with design with fundraising, you know, if you've got money, you know, help us please. We run it running out of money. We're tax deductible. Now. You can donate, you know, and a lot of the action can happen behind the scenes. You don't all have to be upfront. There's lots of ways to help us and back us behind the scenes.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Melinda, I absolutely love your passion and there's so much in there that each of us can actually act on and that's what I love about it too. This is not talking some theory, but there are real issues that we can make a real difference in. So I want to thank you for your time today and thank you for leading away that we all get to follow. Thanks.
 
Melinda Tankard Reist 
Thanks so much, Rodney. Appreciate it.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

Meg Glesener is a remarkable woman who has turned a traumatic upbringing into a life that brings love and hope to so many. Her home is one marked by openness, safety and love but her experience of a family home growing up was starkly different.
 
 
Website: http://lettersfromhomepodcast.com
Facebook: http://facebook.com/lettersfromhomepodcast/
Instagram: http://instagram.com/lettersfromhomepodcast
Email: lfhpodcast@gmail.com
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Thank you for dropping in on Bleeding Daylight once again. I’m always interested in your thoughts and comments so please connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
Also, I’d really appreciate it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts.
 
Today’s guest is a remarkable woman who has turned a traumatic upbringing into a life that brings love and hope to so many. I can’t wait to introduce you.
 
When you think of Meg Glesener one of the first words that comes to mind is family. Her home is one marked by openness, safety and love and I suspect that her definition of family spreads far wider than blood relatives. So maybe you're surprised to find that her experience of family growing up was starkly different. These days, she hosts and produces the podcast Letters from Home. I'm honored to have Meg join me as a guest on Bleeding Daylight. Thank you for your time.
 
Meg Glesener 
Rodney, thank you for having me. I feel so blessed to be part of all the great stories you're getting out there to encourage our hurting world.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Thank you very much. I mentioned you growing up in an environment that's very different from the one that you and your husband have created. So let's start with where you grew up. Can you describe what kind of neighborhood you grew up in?
 
Meg Glesener 
Well, I went to about 10 Elementary School. So as far as the neighborhood Well, I'll tell you about My parents so my parents met in Memphis at playing a game in college. They were playing Bridge and my dad thought, Oh, she's really smart. And anyway, I think he lost some kind of a bet and ended up on a date with my mom and they dated for a very short time. Then my dad ran into a telephone pole while he's backing up for a football catch, went into a coma. He had broken up with my mom just before that my mom came and visited him and then they redated again for a very short time, and my brother was conceived. So they married, both being Catholic, but their marriage was volatile and loveless from the get go. And my dad didn't really grow up with a father. His father had abandoned him. He was very abusive, and then you add alcohol to the mix and they have three kids in three years. And so their marriage started off really, really bad. My mom because of the physical abuse kind of went internal and when I was five years old, they had moved to California and my mom had tried to reach out to her family, but nobody believed her that she was being abused, which is really awful. And so they ended up moving to California with three kids had a fourth in California and when I was five years old, it was Christmas time. And my mom and dad were fighting. It's the ..  only have two memories of when they were married, and they were fighting and they were yelling and they shoved us and sent us in a room. And I was sitting there on a bed with my brother and my sisters and I could hear that song that Christmas song Oh Tanenbaum, Oh Tanenbaum, and that's the only memory that I have of my parents interaction together and they divorced after that. Then I ended up living with my mom, while my father disappeared for probably five years or so didn't want to pay child support or anything and just kind of Adios. And my mom is trying to raise us on welfare and food stamps. in California.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned that no one really believed your mom's story of abuse and these days, it's becoming more common that we hear of stories and that people are getting help. Do you think that life could have been very different for your whole family at someone believed her back then in that first place?
 
Meg Glesener 
You know, hadn't even thought of that. But yes, it could have been so different for her because not having the people that raised you and my mom was young, she was 20. And by 25, had four kids and If her parents would have believed her, maybe my dad would have gotten some help. Right there at the beginning. It could have Yeah, it could have been really different. Maybe he would have gotten the help that he needed. Maybe she would have had a completely different life. Maybe they would have separated, who knows. But instead, we ended up. It started 15 years of raging alcoholism for my father and with my mom, we were on food stamps and she was in and out of a lot of bad relationships. And because she was so kind of in her own world, we just were kind of on our own. And my mom would say that I raised my younger brother and one of her boyfriends was sexually abusive to my sister and me. You add up a checked out mom, who has no way to deal with anything, and a really needy situation in and out of relationships. And then my dad came back about five years after that, and he took two of the kids so that he didn't have to pay child support. And so I was left with a couple of siblings. My dad was kind of out of the picture. I don't remember a parent ever coming to a parent night or anything at school. I don't remember getting help with homework I was, I really hardly have any memories of my early life. And I think trauma plays a part of that. Another awful thing that had happened is that I didn't realize until I was I think I was my second year of college, I had a flashback memory. And the flashback memory was being sexually abused by my own father, which is horrific, and to be able to process that and so I I just mentioned that because I think because of that and the other thing with one of my mom's boyfriend's I think I hardly remember anything really before fifth or sixth grade besides a loving grandparent, you know who came from Tennessee and would take us to Disneyland and that sort of thing. So besides that, it's just so, such a blur until I got a little bit older.
 
Rodney Olsen 
If you put yourself back in that situation and start to imagine it as a child, did you know that something was was not right? Did you hear stories from other kids at school and realize that your family was different? Or did this just seem normal to you?
 
Meg Glesener 
It seemed completely normal. And Rodney I didn't realize till college that my home wasn't normal. You know, as I entered middle school, I live with my mom still. And we lived in kind of an area that had a lot of gangs. And she was spending, I don't know four or five nights away at her boyfriend's house and I would watch the kids. You talk about darkness knocking on the door. There were so many people in that apartment complex doing drugs and They would go down, we live right by this river bed right across from a cemetery and they would go down into the river bed and do drugs and I just really wanted to be accepted into. And I said, I'd like to, you know, come and they said, No, we don't want to, we don't want to mess you up. You're You're nice. And so there's little steps along the way where I do feel that there was some kind of presence if you will, protecting me along the way I could have. I could have brought guys into the house, I could have done anything. I mean, I'm alone as a teenager in a house. When so my relationship with my mom wasn't that great. And I really turned to sports for really felt good to be good at sports and that kind of thing. When I was a freshman in high school, my relationship with my mom came to a head one day and she was mad at me and she yelled at me about something she she thought I was giving my brother the wrong medicine and said Why are you trying to kill my son when I got the wrong medicine? And she had been out that night and she was yelling at me for no reason, and I just lost it. And I said, Hey, I'm the one who does. You know this and, you know, like, I've paid for my clothes. You're not grateful, blah, blah, blah. And I ended up throwing a shoe at her. Because I said, well, you here's your shoe back and I walked barefoot to my dad's house, walk seven miles, barefoot, stubborn. And when I got there, because we had all lived with him a couple years before, that is a trial year and he was so angry and so drunk, I just thought, I don't want to ever go back to live with my dad. She would threaten us all the time. It wasn't one of those nice situations where people speak nice about each other. No, they both spoke awful about each other. I didn't even know they liked each other at any point until my mid 30s. When I asked them about how they enjoyed each other's game playing game. I got to my dad's house. I he said You can stay here if you want. And I really wanted my mom to apologize. I want her to apologize for being rude for not being thankful for all that I'd done for her with taking care of the kids. And she never apologized, and I was so mad. And I was also scared because my dad was so mean, I remember sleeping under the bed, in my dad's guest room with stuffed animals piled around me and wishing my mom would call. Call mom, call back. She never called she called Five days later. And I had already made that decision. I will never let myself be in that situation. Again, I won't be vulnerable to my mom. She called Five days later and she said you can come back and I said, No, thanks.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned that you threw yourself into sport as a way of coping because you really didn't have much of a choice between living with your mom or living with your dad. Either choice is not good. So you try to focus elsewhere and that was with sport. What sort of sport did you play? How did you go with it?
 
Meg Glesener 
I played volleyball and basketball and softball. And there was one thing my dad was good at was volleyball and he would take us to the beach on the weekends. So, though, you know, alcoholism, colors, things, that wasn't all bad. We did have some good family times where we'd go play volleyball on the beach. I was really good at that. And so that is one thing that helped immensely in high school, being known for being good at sports. And it took a few years for the whole friends thing to come along. It was it was devastating. I mean, it was really hard to be alone, and eventually ended up getting friends in the sports world.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Was it difficult to form close friendships? You mentioned that you'd moved around a lot. Was there something in the back of your mind that, hey, I might not be here long anyway, so was that difficult in forming those relationships?
 
Meg Glesener 
It was really difficult. I remember sitting in that lonely phase of my life, and I saw these popular girls and a couple of them played volleyball. And you know, they were sitting in this one part of the school. And I remember thinking, by the time I'm a junior, I want to be in that popular group. I want to be the best on the team. I hope to please my parents, I remember having these unspoken goals in my mind. And by the time I got to junior year, I had all of those things. I was standing there with those popular girls feeling completely, like I was not part of the group, you know, imposter syndrome. And plus they all felt closer and I didn't feel like they like me No, so is completely alone. I was MVP in sports. I was doing well. But there was this emptiness. Inside there was an emptiness and a longing inside. I did meet a girl in one of my classes and she was So nice to me. And anyway, we went to a dance together. And then after a bunch of us went over to my friend's house to spend the night and while we were hanging out this guy open his Bible and shared some Bible verses and talked about Jesus, and how He loves us. And I didn't know it at the time, but this is how I would describe it. There's a verse in the Bible, Revelation three, verse 20, that says, Behold, and it's it's God talking, Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and eat with him. And he with me, at that moment with all the loneliness and the brokenness and things that have come up, I knew that the Lord was knocking on the door of my heart and this guy, Lance at this party at my friend's house said, who would like to give their life to Christ and I remember in my heart thinking Me, me, I want to and I said out loud I do. That night at 16 years old, in my friend's bedroom with this co-ed group, I gave my life to Christ. And I know people have different experiences. But for me, when I woke up the next day, I was a new person. The Lord had come into my heart and there was a burden lifted, there was joy. There was really the whole I almost feeling like birds singing, it was a new day, Rodney,
 
Rodney Olsen 
I suppose the experience that you'd have of anything to do with religion or faith in the past is this religion that your parents had grown up in, which is the thing that caused them to, to have to get married and and it was a bunch of rules. So how did this change in your mind you're talking about this idea of Jesus saying, hey, look, I'll come in and eat with you. And that's a very intimate thing to do. That's a very relationship based thing. It must have seen very different to any of the religion that you'd seen before that.
 
Meg Glesener 
After my parents got divorced, we lived in Tennessee with my grandparents for a year, and went to Catholic church every week and went out to brunch afterward. And that was really the only church exposure I had. I think my dad took his experience with the Catholic Church and he felt like when he was in college, nobody had any answers. And then he just thought it was a bunch of BS. My mom, I think, felt abandoned. And I never went to church once growing up. So I really didn't have a frame of reference. But when I heard the Bible being read, there was something that sparked in my heart. And yeah, a little piece of me thought, This is too good to be true. I can receive Christ and he's my Lord. And I can Go with him to heaven and forgive me for all my sins and cleanse me. It really seemed almost too good to be true. And it is not. It is not. It's the truth I've seen. I'm 53 now and I've seen seeing that to be true. Once I gave my life to the Lord. I thought I should probably tell my dad, there was a really dramatic situation that happened. So his his alcoholism came to a head my sophomore year, he was dating my stepmother. And she would visit and she gave him an ultimatum and said, You need to quit drinking or I'm going to leave you and my dad was just devastated. And he locked himself in a room and he had a harpoon and I don't I mean, who keeps a harpoon? I had a harpoon in his room and he was threatening to take his own life. And my stepmom who is very intense and rules oriented. She piled the kids in the car, because she had two little girls. And my brother and sister and I, we just hopped in the car and my dad said, Okay, I'll go in. So my dad went into a clinic. And he was sober from that point on and he's sober To this day, which I'm grateful for. But yeah, their marriage was not the healthiest or the best. We had 10 foot pot plants in the backyard, you know, hello, 60s left over. And I remember smoking a bong with them in the living room. And just they said, We here you drink so that you know you can do at home safely. I think they were trying to be good parents, but there was a lot of screwball stuff but the thing that affected me more than all that was the anger and the yelling and it probably because of the trauma, I went through younger. I'm just very sensitive still to this day. When I got saved. When the Lord came into my life, I thought I should tell my dad Add that I'm a Christian now. So I came to him and said, Hey, dad, he was in a good mood. I said, I, I wanted to ask you about God. And he was like, What? And I think his first time we'd ever talked about God and he was all sudden, his angry, Mr. Potato Heads, angry eyes, you know, came on. So I just said, I want to know about God. He's like, I'm the one who puts the food on the table. I pay the rent. You know, God, there's no place for God in my house. And I was too intimidated by him to tell him at that point that I was a Christian. I ended up getting a full scholarship for volleyball at a Christian college. And it was maybe half an hour away. I went in and tested. I did one test. They're like serve. They're like full ride, offered me a full ride for college. And I told my dad about it. I was like, Dad, I've got this full ride and well, what college and To Azusa Pacific, because now you can't go. It's a religious school. So I was only 17 when I started college and so I didn't go, I didn't take the full ride and I ended up putting myself through school without any financial help from my parents. I had never really been to church at that point. Still, and I didn't have a reference for that. But I knew the Lord was in my heart and I'd open my Bible and read it. And at home, I would just hide my Bible. I mean, I would read in my room with the door closed and be afraid if my dad walked by is he gonna say something? It's gonna do something because my Christian friends from that group that I went to it was a campus life group had gone to a different college. I thought I better find some Christian friends I you know, a better set myself up and meet meet some people. And so I signed up I went to Cal State Fullerton in California and I signed up for every Christian club. The first one that I went to, I walked in the room, and I met people and I thought, well, they're they're just not talking about God. It wasn't like, you know, you get this cheesy feeling sometime for people are over emotional or something. I was looking at these people and I thought they really know God. And I started really growing in my faith. And college was just a great life changer for me. So many things started changing for me in a good way. I wanted to go to church, I was invited in my I told my dad, Hey, Dad, I'd like to go to church. And he said, Well, you can go once, but if you ask me to go again, you're not welcome to live in this home. And he said, religions, a bunch of propaganda and a bunch of BS. And he said, I would rather that you told me you were on drugs, then that you were a Christian.
 
Rodney Olsen 
That's a pretty tough thing to have to deal with. Of course, you took that opportunity to go to church, once. What happened when you decided that you'd like to go back?
 
Meg Glesener 
I went to church, and it was so cool. I was listed hearing people singing praises, and I just thought, this is where I should be. I had asked this older lady who I had met, and she said, wait till you're 18. But I thought, I'm tired of hiding the Bible. I don't I want to keep growing. And so I decided, yeah, like you said, I decided to tell my dad and again, waiting for him to be in a good mood, like, Hey, Dad, I would love to talk to you. And he's like about what I think he knew called my step mom down. They're sitting there. We're in the living room. They're looking at me right at me. So what do you want to talk to us about? And I said, Well, I want to go to church. And they said, Well, you know what that means, don't you? And I said, Yes, of course. It's really hard to say this. I'm sitting next to adults. Yeah, I'm still a teenager and my my dad said, That's not Good enough Meg, we want to date. And I said it was a Monday and I said, All right, Wednesday, and they both would not let me say goodbye to my younger sister to sister two years younger. And my step sisters were about six years younger. They wouldn't let me say goodbye, I called mom and I said, Hey, Mom, I'm really grateful to my mom for this. I said, Dad, won't let me live with them. Can I come back with you? And she said, Yes. And she was living with a boyfriend at the time. So I moved in with my mom. And I never got to say goodbye. My sisters. My sister told me that she thought I left because of her and my parents told her that I loved God more than I loved her. And she didn't even realize that until our 40 is when we had this conversation. So I moved in with my mom and I started really growing in my Faith. And I was going to church and somebody was taking me aside and discipling me and I thought maybe I'll do a walk on for volleyball at the college. But I realized, you know, my sports are going to end but my life with God is not going to end. And at that stage of my life, I decided, I'm think I'm done with sports.
 
Rodney Olsen 
When your father had said, hey, look, you're not going to be welcome here if you continue on with this God stuff. When you came to have that conversation, was there a part of you that thought, surely he can be serious? He was just saying that, but he's gonna say, Oh, look, we don't agree, but you're welcome to stay here. Was that how you thought it would be or having known him for so long? Obviously, you realized what this might mean?
 
Meg Glesener 
That's a great question. There was a little bit of both, I suppose I was hoping that they would say that's fine. I mean, there really wasn't hardly any transition time before. They said That's not good enough we want to date. And that is another good thing my dad taught me is he's a man of his word and I keeping your words important, but no, I knew he was serious and he meant business.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're living with your mum back again and you're starting to head off to college, you're starting to meet people, you're starting to grow in your faith. What comes next? What's the next step in your story?
 
Meg Glesener 
The next step in my story is my dad, I would just kind of, I guess, spend time with him over time. He he didn't want me to contact him, but I would still send him you know, a Father's Day card or different things like that had been a few years where there was just no contact besides written on my part, or a phone call, and he softened up a little bit over time and he said, Okay, I guess we can get together for lunch. So I planned on lunch with my dad and I was I came over to the house. The house where I'd gotten kicked out of and my step sisters were there. My dad was late, which was really unusual. I had determined in my heart I am not going to bring up God. It's I'm just going to sit here and you know, nervous and I go inside the house my stepsisters let me in. And I'm sitting in the living room with my sisters. And they look at me and said, Meg, tell us about God. We want to know. And so
 
Rodney Olsen 
Wow, wow.
 
Meg Glesener 
Right. So I answered their questions, and that we were having this incredible conversation and, and they said, I want to become a Christian. And so we planned in the middle of the lunch to go for a bike ride, which we did, right there in this complex, a house beautiful housing complex. And they got on their knees in this park with their little bikes at I think nine or 10 years old and gave their life to Christ. That's one way. That's one thing that happened. And I met my husband through that Bible study that I was going to. We started dating toward the end of my college years. And as I was growing in my faith, I would bring my brother, my brother had been kicked out for not looking for a job and he was struggling, he was living with a guy who was wasted on drugs. He started coming to church and my brother turned his life around my mom, who had been for many broken relationships and so much hard time and she had even been in a mental institution a couple of times because she couldn't handle life. It was so hard for her. She started coming to church with me and she gave her life to Christ that a good old fashioned 10th meeting. And all through college I was involved with this beautiful ministry if you will, and got to spend a lot of time with many college, young women, many gave their life to Christ and so many learned, learn how what it means to be a Christian. So I got to see God use my life and that choice all through college to affect so many people. And then right after that, my husband and I, we got married. We got married right after college the summer after I graduated from college.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's an amazing story. I'm just wondering if I can take you back to that time when those young sisters asked to, to know about God and they said, We want to know this Jesus. How did you feel at that point, knowing that if they went ahead with this step, it would make a huge difference in their life, but it may also bring rejection from your dad.
 
Meg Glesener 
I hadn't really thought at that moment about whether they would be rejected. From my dad. I probably should have. But I, I know after that time I planned a time with their twin girls. I came a couple months later and brought them Bibles to the house. So I met them and they had Bibles that they would read on their own. And I don't think their mom ever talked to them about it. But one of my sisters told me that when her mom was going through her room, she found it and just threw it away. So maybe she was a little softer than my dad was about it.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Let's fast forward. What does life look like for you now? What does your family look like now?
 
Meg Glesener 
Well, my husband, Mike and I, within a year of marriage were both two very purposeful people and we got sent up from California to Seattle area to plant a church. And so that's how we got up here in the Pacific Northwest. We have as of last week, Heard that we have grandkid number five coming along the way we have eight children and a couple of them are married and we have two teenagers left at home. We have a senior and a freshman and we're about to start a virtual homeschool on a personal level. I'm a youth leader at church. I love working with youth and we've had so many families live with this. Over the years we've opened up our home to invite people in. One of the people that we've had come into our house more recently, is actually my dad. My dad would still say he's a pretty outspoken atheist and he has said to me his words, mag I really hate Christians but there's nothing I hate more than born again evangelical Christians. And yet I would say to this day, my dad now he loves my husband more than anyone else besides his His Son, dad says since regretted skipping our wedding because it was Christian wedding, and he loves us dearly. And when he ran on hard times, a couple of years ago, his marriage to my stepmom just was just over and then they lost everything they had so much. And they had kind of lost it all. And it's sad. You don't want that to happen to anyone. But without hesitation, my husband, Mike, and I said, Dad, you can come live with us. And so he moved up here, and he lived with us for a year and I just can't help seeing how God has a sense of humor and he also has a plan and my dad who was his heart and angry guy within 24 hours really of living with this just seeing that. No, we're not perfect. You know, we're not poor. We got our struggles. Life's not perfect. with being a bet with eight kids, there's all kinds of ups and downs and so much happening. But seeing the love in our home, and I but I do know that we have a ton of love in our marriage and with all the kids that that is the rule of our home. And so just seeing that and being here, I saw his angry stance with this chest stuck out, it just melted away.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's interesting that the tables have completely turned from someone who said, because you don't believe what I believe you have no place in my home to being welcomed back by that same person who says you don't believe what I believe but you are welcome in my home that's got to have had an effect.
 
Meg Glesener 
I think it really did. And one time when he's still an angry fellow and you know, I think he just doesn't have a lot of strength and he had his own difficult story. But when something hard comes into his life, he backs away from it. Well when you back away from all the hard things, you end up being alone. And he's alone right now. And I love him and he has softened up a bit over time. But it's, it's a blessing for me. It was a blessing to be able to give that to him. And once we had a conversation while he was here, about all the stuff that happened in the past, and he said, I didn't let you go to college because it was too far away. And I said, Dad, your response to that? and kicking me out of the house. He said some other reason for it. I said, that changed my entire life. But he remembered it all differently. It was a it was gaslighted.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You've created this family home that is so different from the one that you grew up in. You've got eight kids. And you've mentioned that you welcome a range of people in and maybe you can tell us some of the people that have been welcomed into your home over time apart from your dad, but was it difficult to be able to create that safe place having not seen it modelled in your own childhood?
 
Meg Glesener 
It's a great question. What I haven't mentioned yet is the probably the number of Sorry, I'm getting emotional. I'm probably the, probably the greatest blessing in my life around me. It's my dear husband. And when you learn growing up that the people who should love you, and you should be able to trust the most for whatever reason, and your home is a place of harm, and it's a place of brokenness and pain, and not safe and you don't know who you are. And you marry somebody who is loving, and kind and patient and consistent. Then I know everyone's got their own trials, but my marriage isn't one for me. We just celebrated 31 years of marriage and I am so grateful for my husband. I learned something different about love. If I did something wrong, he wasn't upset. With me, we would talk about, talk about it later. And so having that is a foundation of the home having my husband be so loving and kind. And of course, you know, when you're a parent you like, I'm not gonna be like my mom or dad, and then you end up noticing. I've got the negative tendencies of both of them. So yeah, you have to fight against frustration, and yelling and checking out and all the things that come with human nature, and with being a parent, but over time as you choose to bring those things to God. Again, and again, there's new habits form, there's a new environment form, there's a new new things for him and my husband and I've been very purposeful over time to set a direction for our home and to have values that we're working on with the kids reading. Like we read Seven Habits of Highly Effective People with the kids. What do you want your worldview to be? Well, how do you look at things, spending time with them? listing so many things in our home. And so you asked about people who've lived with this. My sister lived with us. She was on the East Coast, bad relationship after bad relationship. And we said, all this, my mom and all the siblings ended up talking together and said, Hey, Kimmy, why don't you come live with us? I drove out there. We collected money, we packed all our stuff. And we drove over to our home. My my brother, lived with us for a summer he graduated from college. He came up to stay with us, and I knew he had graduated from college. So I threw a party for him, right, just a normal thing you would do for someone graduated from college. And he said, Meg, and this is just about God and not about me, but he said, Meg, I've had more love in your home for three days than I've had my whole life. Can I live with you? And and we said, Absolutely. He lived with us for a year we had probably 10 different college students live with us. Over time, males and we teach them how to be young men until we got preteen girls and we decided, Okay, we're done having young men, we've had families, a couple of families live with us over time we once we even had a homeless person live with us. Oh, and we had a couple of Muslim fellows live with us to just kind of invited them in Rodney and I, I think that's one of the big problems in our, in our world today is so many people, maybe they're overcome with their own weaknesses or flaws or, or just trying to struggle with life themselves or depression. But we don't open up our homes. We don't open up our friendship group, we keep the same little clicky group and there's so many hurting people around.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm sure it's not lost on you that your family life now and your home now is so different to what you grew up in and by the sounds of it, you're offering that kind of love, that experience of what family could be, to so many people, I'm interested with eight children, I'm sure that they're not all doing exactly what you would like them to do. How do you deal differently to what your dad did? How different is it the way that you treat your children when they don't agree with everything that you believe, as it was to your dad?
 
Meg Glesener 
Well, your a parent Rodney, you know, it's a learning experience, right? It's a learning experience through every stage of parenting and dealing with or, you know, kids, teens that have different opinions. That's a different dynamic. And I will fast forward to having kids that are in college and post college, for me is probably been the hardest part because some of them are, they're choosing life and they're figuring out who they want to be. And you quickly see that if you are still still trying to parent them when they're trying to live their own life. Right, then they don't want you in your life. Or you have a friend who's starts being bossy with their grandkid. And you see their kids restrict them from having any time with their grandkids. And you're like, I'm not going to do that. So I think what I have learned is to be a listener. Each of my eight kids are different. They all have a different path. Some of them are embracing their faith wholeheartedly. Some of them are at different stages. And you know, it's true. You love them each the same amount. You can't love one more. I don't love one, more or less, and I'm learning and I'm still learning how to come alongside them in their life to support them. And once you get that down, then you quit being so worried about all the choices they're making. So yes, I I've had to learn how to deal with differences in a different way. And I'm still learning that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
On top of all these things that you do and we're all wondering now how you find time  for what you're doing, but you're also as I mentioned, you're producing and hosting your own podcast. Maybe you can give us a little bit of an insight into how that started and what it's about.
 
Meg Glesener 
My podcast is called Letters from Home. One thing that encourages me so much, Rodney, is when I hear stories like stories on Bleeding Daylight, I love the stories I just listened to Shea's story today. So many of your stories have really resonated with me and for me when I hear great stories, and especially faith stories, it ministers to me personally and I was thinking, if it means so much to me the stories of people in lives that I know maybe it would encourage and bless someone else. I didn't really even hardly know what a podcast was and I googled how to start a podcast. And when I was thinking about doing the podcast, so many faces came to mind of people in my life, who inspire me. And so I'm working away on that list to get the podcast stories out to so many. And I have so many people on my heart. As you know, there's so many, so many great stories in the world,
 
Rodney Olsen 
And you get the opportunity to bring those stories to life. I'm wondering for those who you've interviewed and chatted to, have there been some who thought, look, I really don't have a story to tell and yet you've been able to draw that story out that's been a blessing to others?
 
Meg Glesener 
For sure, I interviewed 11 year old twins and one of the girls she started a cupcake business because she was downtown with their parents and saw a homeless man and he was hungry and they're just kids right there eating cupcakes and Mom, can we can we buy a cupcake for him and the mom went with it. And it turned into a whole cupcake business where they donate 10% to Hope Linc to help with the homeless, beautiful stories like that my son, my son almost died four years ago when he had encephalitis which is an infection in your brain. He was acting crazy on his job. They thought he had a mental break. He was put into a hospital ward falsely. And that's my first episode. And so yes, that's that's one where maybe he didn't think he had a story to be told. And he's grateful and it's been freedom and a blessing for him to be able to take the shame away from what he went through and how God in 50 days got him out of that place of the mental institution into a place of healing and back in college. So, yes, God's used us to help get many stories out and we got a lot a lot more to share.
 
Rodney Olsen 
What I love about your story is it's this complete change of what was and redeeming it for what can be. And I'm sure that there's still plenty to come in that story as you continue to journey alongside others. We haven't even touched on the fact that you spend a lot of time discipling others and drawing them closer to Jesus, as well as doing that within your own home. But I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your story so openly. And honestly, it's been a delight to have you on Bleeding Daylight.
 
Meg Glesener 
Thank you, Rodney. We'll just keep trusting God's gonna keep knocking down those doors of the darkness to get the light going forward to this hurting world.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Many of us face difficulties, but how do you hold out hope when life continues to push you back down, leaving you broken? Shea Watson has seen some of the worst that life can bring. From times of brokenness and not being able to see any hope at all, he's now able to offer lasting hope to others, a hope that transcends it all.
 
The Pantry Podcast: https://thepantrypodcast.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ThePantryPodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/thepantrypodcast/
Email Shea Watson: hey@thepantrypodcast.com or swatson@ggcf.info
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 Emily Olsen
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Welcome to a really inspiring episode of Bleeding Daylight. I’m so glad you’ve joined me.
 
Don’t forget to catch Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram  and please consider leaving reviews wherever you listen to podcasts.
 
Many of us face difficulties, but how do you hold out hope when life continues to push you back down, leaving you broken? It took many years, but today’s guest finally found that hope.
My guest today has seen some of the worst that life can bring. From times of brokenness and not being able to see any hope at all, he's now able to offer lasting hope to others, a hope that transcends it all. He co-hosts The Pantry Podcast with his wife, Michelle. His name is Shea Watson, and I'm thrilled to be able to welcome him to Bleeding Daylight. Shea thank you for your time.
 
Shea Watson 
Hey, Rodney. It's good to be on today. Man, I've been actually following you on Instagram, listening to your stories, listening to your podcasts. I love Bleeding Daylight episodes and how people have been broken, but then they come out of that darkness and then they get to experience something much better.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Well, thank you and I'm really looking forward to delving into your story today. So let's start really early. Go back to the very early years of your life. How do you remember that early childhood?
 
Shea Watson 
Wow, let's let's just be honest on that. Before 10 years old, I don't remember a whole lot and I think that's because of the traumatic experiences that I had gone through. I grew up In a broken home, divorced parents. Probably not the best timing on telling us about this. They actually broke the news on Christmas Day and that kind of set a tone on how things would end up going in our lives. My sister and I grew up so basically with our mother, and our father moved away. And so we kind of just grew up in that one mother home. And it kind of left my sister and I vulnerable as my mom tried to come to grips with the separation from my dad, you know, that led to some some things that really had an impact. You know, if I had a word or a couple words to say it was like, my mold became broken, my identity became cracked. I lost my innocence at 12 years old. My mom was dating and, you know, back in the 70s and 80s, late 70s 80s. The thought of child predators weren't really in the minds of people back then. It was some a concept that people just I don't know if they didn't want to grasp it or just I didn't understand it, but they would give me money these, these boyfriends would give me money to go into the video arcade. And that is where I met a man who manipulated me, took advantage of me and actually ended up molesting me on several occasions. From that, because I would continually go back I was looking for something I was looking for love. I was looking for attention. I was looking to be accepted. And you know, I never even told my parents what had happened. I just kept going back. That was a summer and then the school year started. And it kind of faded away. It was like a season. And I never told anyone about this too later in life,
 
Rodney Olsen 
There must have been an enormous amount of shame within your own life. We know now that this obviously was not your fault, but did you feel that it was at that time? Did you feel guilt?
 
Shea Watson 
Oh, absolutely. Rodney. It was a destroyer of what I would called my identity who I was, I blamed myself. I never even looked at the the person that did it as being at fault, I looked at myself as being the one to blame because I just kept going. I felt like it was my choice and that actually created identity issues within my own sexuality.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm looking at all of that and thinking, the people that you should have been able to trust, the adults in your life, there's your parents, then there's the the men that come to visit with your mom and they just want you out of the picture. So they paying you to go off, and then there's this guy that you're talking about, as you're going off to play these games and he's manipulating and molesting you. What does that do to someone's trust at such a young age?
 
Shea Watson 
Wow, what a great question. Trust at that age. I became volatile. I pretty much came into my own self thinking that I was the one that had to take care of myself. I had to be the one that would forge my way forward, I was the one that would have to make something out of myself or do something. I didn't really have the the trust or actually respect that most kids would have for a normal set of parents. I kind of lost that and I started forging my own future and moving forward in my own shame.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you're not able to trust any adults because they've proven that. But what about the other kids around you? So for instance, at school, were their friends there.
 
Shea Watson 
I had a few friends. I think that I had a lot of relational struggles, making friends trusting people. You're right. It was tough. It was tough to become a part of because you wanted to be so much more. I remember in elementary school, man, I just had just gone through this. And I wanted to just be accepted by all the other kids and you know, I was the little scrawny kid. Believe it or not, you If you looked at me now, you'd be like, Ah, no, but I was I was a little scrawny kid. I got picked on a lot. I got bullied a lot. And what's amazing in that whole thing is how sometimes the world wants to hold you down. And I had a young boy who called himself my friend, and my nickname that he gave me was 'Shea gay'. Now imagine the impact of this. I've been molested. Nobody knows about this. Next thing, you know, Shea gay becomes the nickname for for Shea and I honestly kind of withdrew back and just didn't make good friends. I tried to be a part of all of the kids around the neighborhood like I had to be accepted. But because the acceptance wasn't always there, I just withdrew.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what were some of the things that you were doing at that stage to to gain acceptance? We hear often of people who try to gain acceptance and they go about it all the wrong ways. Was that your story too?
 
Shea Watson 
Oh, absolutely. I remember Our next door neighbor, they had two boys. And you know, that was, you know, when you live next door to people, they become your friends, whether they're always great to you or not great to you, that's just you know, that's just the way it works. That's how, you know, childhood is. And I remember that I experienced marijuana, I drank alcohol, because why? They had it, they were doing it. I wanted to be a part of them. So pretty much I ran with the crowd. I remember getting arrested for shoplifting because another one of my friends wanted to go into a store and steal. And they caught both of us. Of course, I had nothing on me at that time. But I was with him. I was blocking, so he could take other things. So yeah, I definitely would do things. It didn't matter good, bad or indifferent to fit in with those around me
 
Rodney Olsen 
And did that risky behavior that you're engaging in, did that give you a sense of life or fitting in? Or was it just something that you felt you had to do to fit in? I felt like it was just a motion. Just I was just moving with the tides are moving with with with life. It didn't really fulfill me. If anything, it just added to the shame. So you're living this life of shame that no one seems to know about. At this stage, you've been still living with your mom, your dad's far away. What happened to the relationship between you and your father,
 
Shea Watson 
My father loves me. I would never destroy that love that He has for me but he also was raised in a home where the father wasn't as communicative as loving or caring. He just was there. And so I kind of grew up in that same environment. He was there. He took care of us. He paid for school stuff, he paid for clothes, but as far as the building of a relationship and the communication that a young man like myself really wanted in a father, that never transpired. I just didn't have that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you've been through elementary school, you've been experiencing all these amazing things. I guess you move up the ladder continue your schooling and and what happens there?
 
Shea Watson 
I moved in with my dad in high school and that was kind of one of those moments you look at your mom and you're like, I don't like you. I want to live with dad. Now you're not really thinking about this. You know, with my mom, I had so much freedom. I pretty much ran myself. I would do what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it, sleep when I wanted to, get up when I wanted to. Yes, I went to school, my middle school years, my grades weren't that great. I just kind of just did what I wanted. And then I made that statement. I want to go live with my father. And you know what, they talked about it and they decided that that would probably be the best move being the direction that I was going. So I moved in with my dad and you know by this time, it's amazing. You know how God works as the divorce from the divorce point, now my dad has has found God. He's going to church. He's remarried to a Christian lady and I stepped into the picture. And one of the requirements was that, hey, you will go to Christian school, and you will attend church with us on Sundays and Wednesdays, I was down. I wanted to be away from my mom. And I think a lot of that was because of the brokenness that had happened. And so I moved into high school and of course, I'm always seeking I'm always looking for I'm always trying to be accepted. I'm always trying to be a part of a group or a thing and, you know, high school to me in my mind, at that point, I wanted to transition and I actually went with my middle name in high school. So I got rid of Shea because the Shea gay was so traumatic to me, then that I turned my name over. And so when I introduced myself at my new school, it was Scott Watson. And you know, I succeeded. I man, I loved sports. I always loved sports. Now, I had a little bit of discipline in my life, actually a lot of discipline. My dad was a cop and so He, he laid down a law he laid down a rule he laid down things that I had to do. And so I grew up in that. And so I did athletics, show choir Student Council. I mean, you name it from the high school newspaper, I always got involved. My Grades came up. It was a small school, they had time to focus on me. I had people constantly tell me, oh, great job, good job. You know, you're awesome, right? Actually graduating high school with what in America, we'd say 3.8 GPA, 4.0 being the best. And I had all of these awards and all of these championships under my belt, and I just felt like I was going somewhere, but I still was lacking relationship. I was still lacking my identity. I was still a broken pot, not knowing who I was, at that point in my life. You know, I knew that God and and Jesus existed, and I knew that they were they were real to me, but I didn't know how to have that relationship because I'd never known how to have that relationship with my own father.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It sounds like things are turning around and you still haven't reached that moment where you're feeling fulfilled. But obviously life is on a better track. And it would be wonderful if it just continued to go from strength to strength. But that's not necessarily the story of your life, is it?
 
Shea Watson 
No, it's not, not at all. With the shame of childhood, weighing, or actually just hovering over me. I really believed that I could never stand in front of God and be accepted. I mean, that's how deep this wound was on me. And so I always thought that until I could stand before God, I was worthless. And so when I graduated here I am trying to think of the future and what creeps back in the acceptance what creeps back in, you know, hanging out with the wrong people. Yeah, they accepted me, but they were doing the wrong things between my my graduation and the following year, I found myself in that summer hanging out with people who were selling drugs, who were just running the wrong kind of life. So I started to run with them and I actually ended up getting arrested after high school so after all of this beautiful buildup, you know, man acceptance and doing good, but just being crushed, not having an identity not having, not knowing who I am. I went to find it again in the world, when again to find it and other people, and it ended up getting me in trouble again. And that is actually where one of the greater turning points of my life started, is after I got arrested, so my dad being a police officer, they dropped the drug charges and they ended up charging me for just carrying a concealed weapon, a pistol, which by the way, happened to be my dad's service revolver for his job. They worked out a deal and we ended up signing me up for the army. And that is where another part of my life started.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It seems that you go through stages of, of this shame, trying to find acceptance, then going into this disciplined life and I guess trying to get acceptance in a very different way by conforming, then that fell apart. And now you're going back to this conforming again, going into the military. How did that work for you?
 
Shea Watson 
Again, like you said, Man, you work. We're working through levels. It's like It's like a wave, right? I joined the military. I'm good at it. I'm athletic. I listen to orders because why I want to please people, right? So all of the the leadership just was like, Man, this this is good soldier. He's awesome. He does what we want him to do. He works hard. He he doesn't break down. He just keeps going. And so military with the discipline became another one of those pedestals or another one of those Portions of life where I'm living by others complements, I'm living by others acceptance. Basically, they're forming my life and telling me who I am. And it was going good. It was it was good. And then I met my first wife. And I'm and I'm saying that wasn't the greatest meeting of my life actually. It was rushed. We had met briefly, I was supposed to be deployed, to go overseas to battle to war. And I told her, we should get married and I think we had known each other for six months. So I just jumped into that relationship. And that brought back see I think it's always like, you start to feel like you're moving up, you're starting to, to move forward, you're starting to get away from those feelings of, of inadequacy of mistrust of just pain and the shame that goes with you know, what you've been through in life. You know all the mistakes that you've made? The woman that I married, believe it or not abused me. She was into drugs, drinking, you know, when we would argue things might be thrown. I remember one time we were in an argument and as I walked away all of a sudden I felt a stabbing pain in my back. I had scissors lodged into my back. Did she come up and stab me? No, she threw them from across the room and they hit perfectly. I ended up in the hospital with staples with a deep gash about two inches deep an inch off my spine. And of course, when I went to the hospital, I did the thing that most abuse people would do. I lied. How did this happen? I fell on the couch, the scissors were there. Another time she was hitting and punching. And I grabbed ahold her not to hurt her but to just stop her and she kicked me so hard in the nose. That I ended up in the emergency room again. And they had to put my nose back in place through surgery. And of course, I said, I got hit by softball. So it was a little abusive in that time, but you know what army? So yeah, my home was horrible. My army life was awesome. Always going forward. But you know, we went to war and war has its tolls.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to look at some of the tolls that war does have but first, just touching on again, there's the abuse from this wife, obviously very different from the abuse you suffered as a child. Again, we see the same pattern of lying and trying to hide what has happened then. And I don't think you're alone in that. I think there's probably a lot of people listening who things have happened in the past that have not been their fault. And yet, they feel the need to cover it up. This can't come out. There's too much shame.
 
Shea Watson 
Yeah, I definitely think that there are a lot of people that fall into this pattern. We don't want to admit things sometimes. I know in my own circumstance, pride, pride became my silence. Pride became that shutting of my mouth and not not allowing other people's in to see what I was going through because I thought I could hold it all myself. I thought I could carry it all myself, I thought that I could deal with it. And I would be okay. You know, the whole your whole life, the army, you know, I mean, you get an army, there's like, you fall down, you sprained something, you gotta get up, boy get ups on, you got this. We got this. And it's just it's constantly building up, but you're not really addressing the issue. Like I said, we went to battle right? And again, you know, in this thought, it's like the bill job, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, you're good, but you're seeing things. you're experiencing things. Man, the battlefield is an ugly place. And I think because of all of the other trauma all of the other impacts. This just became another layer of impact. And I know in 1997, I had come to a point in my life in the military where I felt like I was out of control, where fear no longer played a role. And if anyone knows anything about combat, if anyone knows anything about war, there always needs to be a little bit of fear in war, without fear becomes recklessness. So without that control without, you know, thinking of outcomes without thinking of the responsibilities and what might or might not transpire, in other words, putting the whole picture together when you start to go without that, and you start to just go reckless, you start to endanger other people's lives. And so I put myself in front of a psychiatric doctor because I knew something was wrong. I was starting to have flashbacks. I was starting to have delusions. I was starting to have nightmares, and I needed to talk to somebody.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Do you feel that somehow that recklessness, that lack of fear was a sense of, of almost self destruction of not caring what happened to you?
 
Shea Watson 
I would say that would be 100%. accurate, sir.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So how do you come out of this? I mean, you say you've put yourself in front of medical help, what was the prognosis and what happened from there?
 
Shea Watson 
So I was diagnosed with PTSD. And I think that at the time, it felt like a horrible decision because they said, I couldn't go back to the military. The diagnosis was Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I want to just go back at that point, I was like, Okay, I'm fine. I've talked to somebody let me just go on, you know, it was a Shay fix. It was like, Okay, okay, let me let me just go, let me get back into pattern. You know, they kept me there. And they're like, no, you're not fit to go back. Now, that had its own impact, because I'd always been fit. In my own mind. I'd always been okay. In my own mind. I'd always been able to pull myself out of it. And now I had somebody telling me, no, we're going to keep you back. But it was a good thing. When you look back at it. Now you look back and you say why Wow, that was my god taking control and saying no, it's time to move forward. It's trying time to fix this. And so in, in care in the psychiatric care that I was that I went through the admission of being molested of a child was brought out for the first time to anyone. I had never talked to anyone and I was, what 2027 28 years old. And one of the first questions my doctor asked me was, have you told your parents about this? And I looked at her and I said, No, I've never told them. So one of the first things that we had done as part of the treatment and healing was to bring our my parents in and let them know that hey, during this time, during this period, you know, I experienced these things.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I imagine that that was incredibly tough on them. Because they're thinking, well, we didn't really help the situation. Our relationship was breaking down and these things were happening around us. So did they feel a sense of guilt and shame as if they'd let you down at that time?
 
Shea Watson 
I would say that they did. Especially my mother, my father responded like most fathers would. He said, Man, I'm glad I didn't know then, you know how we, you know, we always stand up for our kids. I'm a father and it's like, if I would have known, I would have done something. And you know, I'm kind of glad that he didn't know because at that time, he wasn't with Christ, or he wasn't with God. He wasn't, you know, in a mind frame that probably was healthy. My mother, of course, felt extremely guilty. And it took her a lot of years to find peace in that later in life. She also came and started to believe in Jesus Christ. And so now I have two parents to this day that believe in Jesus Christ. And so through that process, we have continued to heal. They were there. My dad, you know, again, not the greatest communicator in the world. But I know he loves me. I know it had an effect on them. And I know that it also answered a lot of questions. Why was Shea so broken? Why was shave so angry? Why was Shea toxic and kind of helped them understand that you know what there was a lot more going on.
 
Rodney Olsen 
As we listen to the story. We're hearing that familiar theme of coming to a better place and at this stage, you're getting some of the help that you need. But after you come out of the military, what happened then?
 
Shea Watson 
So I lost what I considered my love. I'm very pedestal. In my past my past I would put items or people on pedestals, they became my everything. I had really no foundation in myself. I had really low self esteem. Even with all of the achievements, I still never looked at myself as worthy or or good. So I lost the love. I lost the army. I didn't know what to do. I'm trained in Combat Arms, and now they're telling me you can't have that job. During that time at the hospital, I actually met my future boss. And he was an ex Green Beret. So he understood who I was what I was. And he actually was working in the medical maintenance field for the army. So that's working on medical equipment. So anything from x ray machine down to a simple microscope, and he said, Look, if you ever have to leave the army, you just give me a call. Army day came it was it I was done. They medically retired me, shattered, didn't didn't understand what's going on. But watch this. I had this great job. But still with that great job because it wasn't what I strived to be just became another job. I never looked at the blessing that was behind that job. I moved forward. My sister happened to live in the area. And she was like, Hey, why don't you move in with me because this is where the job was. And so post military, you know, I'm feeling but I'm still feeling lost. I'm still filling this Dark Void. I'm still filling all of these shames in this turmoil. That always was Inside of me, I'm feeling like I'm nothing. And I have this job. But what did I do? I went out again and I met the wrong people and I got myself into drugs. And this time instead of selling the drugs, I started doing the drugs. And that list of drugs is quite extensive. To be honest, I didn't even want to live. I didn't care if I lived. Here. I had this good job. I had a sister who loved me, who was a believer in Jesus Christ, who really threw everything through the drug addiction. And just this this two years that I stayed with her, where people were like, just kick him out, get rid of him. She kept me she helped me. I lived in that darkness. I lived in that shame and that pain. I felt I didn't finish the army. I wanted to retire. I told everybody I would retire in 20 years, you know, normally, I'd have this job that I loved that I went forward in that, you know, people always told me I'm good at now. I'm starting a whole new job and it's like, yeah, you're okay, but you're learning. So you're not Great. So again, I'm back at the bottom. And I'm trying to find a way to pull myself out.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And still trying to find that acceptance that even as a young child on that Christmas day when, when your life was broken apart on on a day, that should be one of the happiest days of the year, you find out that your parents are splitting your life will never be the same again. And you're still trying to find that acceptance as as what now about a 27, 28 year old man?
 
Shea Watson 
Yeah, and you know what? I've found that acceptance. Again, you know, it's here we go through that pattern. I found that acceptance I I met my second wife, so I had to divorce my first wife. We were actually married nine years. I think that whole nine years we spent three years together. The rest of the time we were separated or away from each other. She was doing her things. Another traumatic story there, but we'll save that for another time. So I divorced her and married my second wife idolized her. I put her on a pedestal. I put All of my focus into her. And you know what, in some ways, it had a great outcome. I stopped doing the drugs because my wife had told me she said, Look, if you're going to do drugs, I don't want to be with you, you have to stop doing drugs. So I stopped doing that drug and then she became my drug. She became my everything she became my my lift my boosts my, my high. And of course, when that would fall apart, I would feel empty and alone. And I would react that way. I would really react. scared, I would read, I'd have this elephant on my chest. I mean, the elephant on my chest was in my whole life. I don't know if you've ever heard that expression. But it's just that heaviness like your heart aches. when things don't go right. Your heart just is just pounded it just like it feels like you're being crushed. And every time that we'd have an issue, I'd feel crushed because I didn't have me. I always had it in someone else. This whole time work is going great, by the way. Work. She's going great. You know, I'm moving Moving up here and my my relationship honestly was beautiful. A lot of people would say, Hey, we want to be like you guys we want to have that friendship like you guys have but you know when we fell apart, we would fall apart because we were alone when we fell apart. We went through some tough times we went through eight miscarriages we went through you know, the the normal wife and husband fights probably more intensified because we only had each other and when that fell apart, we we felt alone. But the eight miscarriages started to have its toll on her. It started to have its toll on me. We went through some serious miscarriages while we're talking fifth and six month miscarriages. And so you're sitting there and you're adding more to the pressure more to the life more of these things that you have to handle together and we were failing at handling them together. We did attempt to be a part of that lifestyle of Christianity, that we got baptized together. In fact, it was like I was like yes, maybe We're moving forward here. You know, we're gonna get through these miscarriages. We're gonna get this. I mean, I think God was starting to call on me. God was saying, No, no, no, we can't You can't live this way. I started to decrease my alcohol. And God just kept saying, Come on, come on, come on, I could just feel it, I felt that there was a directional change that had to happen. But see, we were on different levels. And she and my wife just kept going deeper and deeper and deeper into darkness. And when I say that, I only mean that in the most loving way. She was in pain, and she didn't know how to deal with that pain. One day she came home, and she was like, you know, I just want to I just want to hang out with my friends. Because the younger crowd and I just want to go to the bar, just want to party just want to have fun. And I told her, this is just me being loving. I said, Look, just be home more than you're away. And she went and did what she did. And one day she came home again and she's like, I just want to start smoking weed and actually I smelled it on her I knew drugs. And she was I want to start smoking weed. I just want to, you know, start doing these other things. And I looked at her that day and I said, we can't bring that into this house. You know, my past, I stopped drugs because of you. And I told her, I said, we can't do that. And that is the starting point of when she started to move away from me. It started out with just weeks apart in our own home to where one day she just decided that she was going to leave and move in with a friend. And that kind of finalized my my second marriage, she never wanted reconciliation. We were fighting, you know, over the reconciliation we tried a couple times. And she just ended up leaving. And so I was again alone.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I mentioned at the start that you were someone who really at many times had not seen hope. And even the hope that was coming especially through those those miscarriages of seeing a baby develop and maybe there's hope there to be dashed again. And again, it's hard to understand what that does to push So what finally was the trigger to start turning things around for you?
 
Shea Watson 
New Year's Eve 2013. I was home alone. And you know, I'd been in this position before. I remember another year way back in my military days with the first wife where I was sitting in a hotel room alone on New Year's Eve. Of course, that time I turned to drugs. This time, again, although much milder, I just wanted to sleep. And so I drank a couple beers took an Ambien, which is a sleeping pill, and I just wanted to go to bed. And when I woke up, I was sitting in front of my my good friend, he lived about an hour away. And I'm just mystified. I'm sitting in a chair. As you know, I wake up in a chair from asleep, and I look across at my friend first. How did I get here? I don't even remember driving. Number two, he was sitting across from me. He had a pistol, a gun sitting on his chair. And I looked at him and he looked at me and I said Why do you have a gun and he said, reach inside of your your pocket. And I reached inside of my own pocket and I had a one of my pistols on me. I think that was a wake up call. That was one of those moments where you sit there and say, I don't want to turn to drugs, I don't want to turn to alcohol. I don't want to turn to anything that's going to be destructive in my life I need to change and I remembered back to high school. I remembered back to learning about Jesus learning about God. I'd never discredited God or Jesus through my whole life. In fact, if anything, I was just too shameful to approach him or talk to him, or have a relationship with Him. And so that morning, I went home on New Year's Day of 2014 and I opened up my laptop and I said, You know what, I need to be in church. I need to be in church and I looked at To God in a very defiant way, almost, if I look back at it now and said, Fine, I'm done trying to do it myself, show me something. Prove it to me. Prove to me that I'm worthy, prove to me that you love me the way that I'd always been told. And so I looked up the church that I'm actually in now, Greater Grace Christian Fellowship, it was close. I could walk to it if necessary. I wanted a place where I had no excuses. And so I went to church,
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what happened at that church to change because you'd known about Jesus, you've known about God all this time. And the sense I get is that you've been trying to please Him, just as you've been trying to please everyone else. You've already said that you felt that you needed to shape up before God before he would accept you. So what was different this time?
 
Shea Watson 
In one word, Grace. And I know that that term doesn't always fall on every one the same way. But really, when I went to church that day I learned about his unfailing love. I learned that no matter what position that I was in, he still loved me. He loves me. No matter, the brokenness, the the shame, the pain, the things that I had done. He was standing there willing, Lee opening his arms and saying, Come to me, son, come to me, I will give you the rest that you need. And that grace that that just is a healing grace, and what he's done to ensure that we could have that grace when we accept him and receive him. When we say that, yeah, you know what I want to trust in you. And it was the first time that I'd ever heard something other than what I had been used to or in my head, thought The past that you know, if you send you, you know, it's the it's the big ad of everybody, here's this if you send you go to hell, you know, and that was kind of in my mind that like I was I had this destiny to hell. And in that first church service, it's amazing how God works. He broke down a message he gave a message through my pastor to me personally, about how you're okay. Just come to me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
How did you manage to change your thinking of forever trying to please people and forever trying to please a God who, in your mind could not be pleased, to just accepting the love from a God who said, it's all free, it's all grace?
 
Shea Watson 
I think what I had to stop putting in my mind was me going to God and allowing God to come to me. I simply reached out to God So show me if you're if people are going through something right now and they don't feel like there's a way out. Sometimes it's just easier. Maybe Maybe you don't believe it. 100% maybe you're like, but is it real? Or is this What's going on? Because I mean, I lived in the in the world of I knew it was real. But I didn't feel worthy enough. I would always find myself coming up short. But I sat there that day, and I said, Show me. Show me. And let me tell you something. When you put a request to God like that, God shows you like he showed me. Was I perfect? No, I mean, I went to church for one month. You know, it has like, yeah, I'm succeeding. Now. I traveled to Africa a lot. Now I'm all in into the mission side of it. But before that, I was traveling to Africa and I was on the party scene, the club scene the do it wrong. Seeing is how I would see it. And I went back to Africa in that February and you know what, I stumbled again, it was a big stumble. The one thing that I had against my wife coming back into the home was drugs. I ended up finding in Africa which is very unusual. And I found myself going back to the drugs. So again, back into that pattern. But you know, as I flew home, after the month of being in Africa, and realizing that, you know what, that really isn't the lifestyle that I wanted. That's not what I wanted. I had experienced something better in that January as I was going to church and Bible studies and, and I was starting to feel like I was being filled with something that was good. As I flew back from Africa, I made a promise on that plane. I said, God, I will serve you.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We can all turn over a new leaf and and several points along your story. You've turned over a new leaf, things have started to look good. But you can only fake it for so long, right? This was back in 2014. And this seems to be something that has stuck. So what's actually happened since 2014, when you made that concrete decision?
 
Shea Watson 
So 2014 there was one more little story that that really made the difference in me. And I think this is what solidifies the reality to to the relationship that God wants to have with his people. I was at church, I was broken. I mean, you know, when you start to realize that the way that your life was, isn't necessarily the way it should be, that the things that you invested in the things that you put your heart and mind and soul into, were things that didn't build build you up. They actually brought you down. You start to go through this phase of brokenness and you start to really seek to be different. And I remember going to church and I can came home. And I'm I'm listening to actually it's a pretty cool song. It's called a Sweetly Broken by Jeremy Riddle. So if anyone out there I'm pumping them up a little bit I think that's allowed, but you should listen to this song. You should listen to this song because it just says that you know what, even in my brokenness, even in my brokenness, God says I'm okay. And I fall down in my entryway and yeah, I'm gonna admit it as a man I laid there crying, because I was like, You know what, it's okay to be broken. It's okay. Because God is gonna be there for me. You know, I'm starting to solidify in my mind that I don't need anything else. I just need God. And I kind of shake it all off. I'm listening to that song in my headphones, and I stand up and I walk around to my kitchen. And to this day, I don't understand how but all of my cabinets were open and the dishes were on the floor broken. And I'm looking at this and I sit down and I have this overwhelming feeling right? of like, Ah, man. I'm trying To get better, and I'm just keep running into stuff. And I had this feeling and it said, Get up, clean up all that brokenness. And then when I cleaned it up, the floor was completely clean. There was no more dishes, no more broken, no more anything. And I had that feeling that that understanding that God was saying, that is how I cleaned you. You're okay. The funny behind that I had one bowl, one plate, one cup left, and it would kind of solidify the idea that it's me and you got it's nothing else. We're gonna build this you're gonna teach me how to love myself. And on that day, he started to teach me how to love myself something that I had never done my entire life. And so from 2014 to now that has been the building process that has been what's been going on, when things start to fall apart. I don't fall apart the way that I used to fall apart. Yes, you like you said there are times you know You go through challenges you go through, man, I got remarried, I'm on my third wife. But this is my final life. And I can say that wholeheartedly. Because both of us have a different foundation that we live by. We don't live by our own foundations, our own self, what we believe we believe in a core value that comes from the Bible, and how to forgive and how to give grace and how to give mercy, all of these things that I struggled with my whole life. So now even when we have an argument, we don't fall away and fall apart, we fall into the Word of God. That has been so healing when things come up in our path COVID right now in the United States, all of the you know, the the riots, the protests, the things that are going on the things that bring instability to our hearts and our minds because we just don't know the direction and I'm not signing either way. I'm just saying that, you know, these things come at you but you know, he continually take Those stressors away that elephant that was on my chest in 2014. I have not felt that since the PTSD that I experienced has now been taken away. I no longer experience delusions, nightmares and flashbacks. God is doing a work in my life God is has lifted me up. And I have never felt this alive in my entire life through everything that I've been through.
 
Rodney Olsen 
There's not just a set of beliefs that you now follow. But there's actually real healing that has happened in your mind and in your body.
 
Shea Watson 
Absolutely, absolutely. Beliefs are one thing, but actually feeling the change is another thing. I don't look back at my past and think, oh, how horrible I was. I actually look back at my past, and I think, how can I help people. They're going through the same things that bring me to where I am today. Healthy, satisfied, joyful, at peace. Full of comfort. because my whole life was anarchy, twisted, broken. And now I feel like I'm part of something greater. And it's not just a set of rules. It's so much deeper than that. It's acceptance.
 
Rodney Olsen 
What does life look like for you in the present day?
 
Shea Watson 
Very busy, Rodney. No, my my life today. here's here's a beautiful what I hold daughter number nine. In my arms. I have a beautiful wife that is a believer in Jesus Christ the same way I am. More importantly, we are ministers in the Word of God. I also I lead men's ministry, I attend Bible College. leader in our church, we do a podcast, the pantry podcast, as you mentioned earlier, I still work for the army, although now that's become my second job. And you know what's amazing about that? When God became my first job, my second job became more fulfilling. I've linked up with churches in Africa. I've linked up with churches in the Republic of Georgia. My life is just completely different. Do we move a lot? Do we go a lot? Absolutely. But you know, this is a message that I think more people need to hear. This is a message of hope. This is a message that heals people, and that healing. I can't even describe the healing. But I know that it's there. And I know that it's real and it hasn't gone away. I've been in doing ministry work for seven years now and it doesn't go away. But that relationship with Jesus, that wanting to know about Jesus wanting to know the love that he truly has, is what guides our steps and gets us through every day.
 
Rodney Olsen 
If people want to To get in touch with you maybe explore a bit more of your story and how that can become their story, what's the best way for them to contact you?
 
Shea Watson 
I have a couple different ways. First of all, we have our Pantry Podcast. So you can always get ahold of both my wife or I through this. It's hey@thepantrypodcast.com or you can reach out to my personal email. It's swatson@ggcf.info Either one of those would be a great way to reach out to us.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I'll pop links to that and to to the podcast for sure  in our show notes are bleedingdaylight.net. Shae, it has been remarkable time to spend with you to hear some of the stories, some of the brokenness but the hope that continues to break through. Thank you so much for your time.
 
Shea Watson 
Thank you, Rodney. Appreciate it. Hey, keep up the good work brother. Love you.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

Jean Bailey Robor is an international writer, speaker, comic, professional communicator, and so much more. Her book, 'She Has a Big But: Get Past Your Excuses and Realize Your Dreams' tells the stories of women who've overcome obstacles and excuses on their way to success. She is also a successful fitness coach for over 50s.
 
 
 
Website: www.JeanBaileyRobor.com
Twitter: www.twitter.com/JeanBaileyRobor
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jeanbaileyrobor  
Facebook: www.Facebook.com/JeanBaileyRobor 
Fit After 50: www.FitAfter50TheRevolution.com 
 
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
If you’re a regular listener to Bleeding Daylight, welcome back, if this is your first episode, please remember that you can find Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Don’t forget to share this and other episodes of Bleeding Daylight to help shine even more light into the darkness.
What do you get when you cross a comic, an author , public speaker and fitness coach? You get today’s guest.
My guest today is an international writer, speaker, comic professional communicator, and so much more her book, 'She Has a Big But: Get Past Your Excuses and Realize Your Dreams' tells the stories of women who've overcome obstacles and excuses on their way to success. Jean Bailey Robor is also a successful fitness coach for over 50s. Through everything she does, it's obvious that she has a heart to see others reach their potential. Jean, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Thank you, Rodney. Thanks for inviting me to be a part of your show. I'm just so grateful to be here and thanks to all the guys that are gonna be listening and tuning in. I just appreciate this opportunity to speak to you today.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You seem to be the kind of person who's very comfortable in her own skin, happy to be in front of people.
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Absolutely. You have pegged me exactly right because when I was growing up, I was super shy if you can believe that.That's how I was most of my life. And I realized that that was really holding me back from a lot of opportunities that, you know, would have been a lot of fun. And if I could have had more success, it took going through a really hard time in my life. You know, sometimes you have to hit rock bottom is what we say sometimes in order to start rising back to the top. And it took a really tough time in my life when I went through a divorce that was just horrific. And, you know, there was no place I could go but up. So I started listening to books on tape, you know, back in the day, they were on cassette tape, and I started listening to those as I sat at work, trying to find myself trying to, you know, dive into these self help books and there was one in particular, the author's name was Cheryl Richardson, and she mentioned something about how she learned to speak in public through Toastmasters. And I don't know if you've heard of Toastmasters Rodney, but it's an organization that teaches leadership and communication skills. And I thought, well, what the heck is that so I googled it and that was a turning point in my life Rodney because I joined a club. It's been about 15 years now and they taught me how to regain my confidence and I regained my self esteem. And I actually found out that I enjoy being in front of an audience, which in the past, that would have scared the heck out of me, you know. So it's those little steps that we take sometimes and those choices that we make, that can lead us in a whole new direction, to go to a place that we've never even dreamed of. So I got past the fear of public speaking the fear of speaking in front of people, and being able to find my own voice and speak confidently about what I believed in and found a way that hopefully I can help other people step into, you know, their purpose in life. It's just been an amazing journey.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So back in the day when you were listening to those voices on cassette at work, what did work look like? What was your job back then?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
I was working for a lab and don't let that make you think that I know what I'm doing in the lab because I worked behind the desk. I didn't actually, you know, do the lab work. But I was working in a lab and processing specimen records. And it was sort of, you know, mundane at that point, because it was the same old, same old, but the good news was, for the introvert in me it was perfect, because I could sit in my little cubicle and not have to worry too much about interacting with people. It wasn't long that I had been there that I realized if I wanted to move up in that company at all, I was gonna have to step out of my comfort zone. And so this all came about kind of in the same time period, because I've been there about five years before I really did anything, you know, that mattered. It was just an eye opener when I found that, you know, life can be a lot more than we think it is. Sometimes we think it's you get up, go to work come home. That's it. And it's so much more than that, but we have to be intentional about it. We have to make those choices that lead us to the places where we can feel fulfilled.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned that it took you out of your comfort zone and certainly public speaking is one of those things they say, is so many people's greatest fear. You learned public speaking skills through Toastmasters but I think that comedy would turn the fear factor up to 11. You're not just speaking on a subject that you know, you're very much putting yourself on the line and trying to get a laugh. When did comedy come into the picture for you?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
That was interesting. I'm glad you asked me because I never dreamed that I would ever become a comic that was not in the plan. Even after I became more confident and I started enjoying speaking on stage, I was giving motivational talks. I was talking about my book that you'd mentioned earlier. And I love humor and I enjoyed inserting humor into my talks, but I never thought hey, maybe you could get up there and you know be on stage like Jerry Seinfeld, or somebody. That never occurred to me, and then I went to a fundraiser in my local town, and there were three comedians, and they were holding this fundraiser to raise funds for cancer research, which is near and dear to my heart. Because, you know, we all know somebody that's been affected by cancer. And so I showed up to support them. And after the show, we started talking, and the three of them, you know, we're out there in the lobby, and we started talking to one of the guests said, Hey, you should come and go to comedy school down at the comedy zone in Charlotte. And I'm like, comedy school? What is that? And he talked about it and, and he talked about it in such terms that it made me think I at least need to go and check this out. I need to see what this is about. I had no idea that people actually went to a school or went to a classes to learn how to be funny. And it just in it made me think that maybe I can make my talks a little bit better if I go and, you know, learn a few things from these guys that are experts at it. So for seven weeks, I signed up for a course and for seven weeks I would leave work at 5pm drive to Charlotte, which was a couple hours away, get there just in time for the classes seven, and get back home at midnight. And I learned so much I hung out with people who like me were coming out of curiosity. Others were coming because they had been on the stage, but they wanted to be better. And we just meshed as a group. We were from all walks of life. It was an interesting experience. And I can remember one of the things that was such a challenge and this I found so funny, because it wasn't just a challenge for me, but for all of us. Some of us who had been on stage before but not in the comedy world. We were used to speaking with a microphone, but it was usually a fixed microphone, or something that we held in our hand while we walked around. And if you notice a lot of comedians, they start with the mic in the stand and then you know, they make it look effortless. They take it out, they take the stand and they move it around behind them. I'm telling you that was the most awkward for me was moving that stand without letting it fall over or tripping it up on my legs it was, it was the funniest thing. And it wasn't just me. And I thought, I guess the reason they're so effortless is because they've done it 100 times. And here we were doing it for the first time, I actually went on eBay and I bought myself a mic stand just so I could practice at home. The rest is really history, but it was such a great experience. And it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't shown up at that fundraiser and talk to those comedians afterwards, and found out you know, how they were going out and they were doing things like this for their communities and helping in their communities and, and using humor to do that. And I think it's such a good connection for people, when we can throw some humor even into something that's, that's maybe a little bit serious of a subject but we can insert some humor and it just, I don't know, it's like, it resonates with people because we want to laugh. We want to have fun.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Oftentimes when we think of humor, and especially stand up comics, we're thinking questionable language and questionable subject matter but you prefer to stick with clean humor. I imagine that would give you a wider audience.
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
This is something else that I learned in comedy school. They said, you know, you can take a clean set, and you can always dirty it up, but it's really hard to take a dirty set that you've written, and clean it up. So we would start with the base of you know, let's write that clean set and that works so well, because there are a lot of corporate audiences that want comedians that will not hire them, if they're afraid they're going to say something on stage, you know, that offends somebody. And it's so it's so important that we learn those skills of creating the clean set so that we can use that anywhere and Rodney, you know, I decided early on that if I couldn't say something in front of my mama, then I wouldn't let it come out of my mouth on the stage. You know, and that's just sort of been the standard that I that I go by. So I've been asked to speak in churches and different places that I wouldn't have been asked to do if I had gone a different route. And for me that was just, it was the most normal thing in the world to say, hey, I want to be funny that I want to do it in such a way that it's good for all audiences,
 
Rodney Olsen 
What would be the strangest comedy audience you've had to face?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Okay, I don't know if you're familiar with Charlotte, North Carolina, but it's a great place for comedy because it does have the comedy zone there. A few years ago, they were doing what they called a Fringe Festival. This where was where a bunch of comedians got together. And we were assigned different places in the city to go at different times to share comedy. And you could be in a coffee shop, you could be in a bar, I mean, you know, you were just assigned like five or 10 minutes, something like that. I think it was five minutes. And so on that particular day I was assigned to a coffee shop, which that was my first time of stepping out into that situation. I had always given talks in the past. corporate world for civic organizations at the comedy zone, but not in a venue like a coffee shop. So when I did that, I got such a nice little response. It was a small audience and I thought, Oh, this is great. I can't wait to get to my to my next spot. Well, my next spot was actually in a bar. And I will tell you, it wasn't set up for comedy. There was not a stage. They did give me a microphone. But people were sitting at the bar drinking, they were conversing. They were, you know, paying attention to each other. The big screen TVs were own with sports. I mean, it was like the worst. I've never been in a place where I just felt so ignored, you know, but I found out later, that's kind of how it goes. Sometimes. You know, when we were like I said, we were just like, five minutes here, five minutes there, that for me, that setting that venue of being in a bar where everybody was, was paying attention to everything except for the person talking in the mic. You know, that was quite an interesting experience. And I realized that, you know, you still have to bring it whether your audience is there with you or not.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Was anyone paying attention that night?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Not very many. I think there were two people that came up to me afterwards. And they probably just felt sorry for me for being, you know, the comedian that was ignored.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I mentioned in the introduction that you do cover a wide range of interests. There's the comedy, there's writing and we'll talk about your book soon but there's also the fact that you're a fitness coach for those over 50. How did you fall into coaching?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Oh, I fell into this because I was in really bad shape. So I'll just let out a little secret. I'm actually 57 now and after I turned 50 You know, it wasn't like being in my 20s anymore. And I realized because I did have a job where I sat most of the day that it actually hurt when I had, you know, times on the weekend when I was doing things and on my feet for Well, and I thought, you know, I'm a little too young for this to be happening. Why does my body hurts so much? Why are my knees creaking? You know, why am I gaining this weight? And I started researching, you know, how can I, how can I make myself better because I believe strongly in getting your mind body and soul healthy, and I had let my body fall apart a little bit, you know, not in a bad way, but just not really being intentional about keeping it healthy. So I decided I was going to start walking, walking was the starting place. And I started doing that, but also realize something about myself, I have to self ... and this is true for everybody. We have to find ways to set ourselves up for success. And I knew if I told myself, you're going to get up at 6:30 every morning and go for a 30 minute walk, I might do it a couple of days, then I might miss a day. I needed to be accountable somebody that's how I need to work how I need to operate. So I created a group called fit after 50 and the company Have that group and the people that count on me to show up to walk with them, it became a habit. Now, if people don't show up, I'm okay with that I'm still going to show up anyway. But early on, I needed that encouragement, and I needed to be accountable to others. So now we have over 200 people in our group. Now, they don't all show up to walk, but they're hanging in there with an online Meetup group. And I'm putting out information about ways that we can get healthy after 50 and things that we can do. And in the past, I always had this perception that you had to be a certain shape in order to be fit that's not necessarily true. If you exercise if you eat right, you can just look at the stats like in your blood test that you get and say, Okay, look, from last year to this year, my cholesterol dropped this many points. And recently, I did have a wellness screening and it had it dropped by 20 points. And I was like, yeah, you know, so I can see the results and I feel the energy that I didn't used to have I feel younger at 57 than I did at 50. And it makes a difference, you know, and not just in how you feel physically. But how you feel mentally as well. You're not, you know, your mind can be sharper or sharp, and by the habits that you create, and by the way that you're intentional about bringing good health into your life.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Do you think we sometimes use age as an excuse? Do we start to believe that once we hit a certain age, it's all downhill, that our body beginning to fail is inevitable? So let's not try and fight nature?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
I do. I do. And I think that's an easy way out, but it's a natural thing to do, it seems because we see other people giving those excuses, you know, and when I wrote my book, I was talking about getting past your excuses and realizing your dreams. And that's what it's all about, whether it's physical fitness or what have you. We do tend and as we age to say, Oh, I'm just getting older. That's why my knees are creaking. But I can tell you going up and down steps had been, I found myself in a lot of pent knee pain. And since I started working out and building muscles, I mean, that's almost negligible. Now, it's amazing the things that we can do that we don't even realize, because we do attribute it to, you know, I'm just getting a little older, this is what's happening. And I have come to realize through this whole journey, that when I find myself saying, Well, I'm getting older, then I stop myself now because I think, I believe I'm using that as an excuse, and that's not right. And I try to find a way Well, is it truly that, you know, this is an age thing? Or is this something I can either reverse or stop right here in the tracks? So, you know, I think we just again have to be very intentional about what we do. And even in what we say, I'm such a big proponent of, of the self talk that we give ourselves and to make sure that we don't beat ourselves up. I used to feel that I beat myself up a lot because I was listening to my negative self talk about why I couldn't do something or what was going on are those limitations I was putting on myself. But you know, once you get past that and you realize and you understand that, you know, you talk to yourself more than anybody else talks to you and what you bring into your mind, it just makes the biggest difference in how your day goes and and how your life goes.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to talk about your book now and as we've said, it's a book about people who have ignored the excuses or got past them in some way. Maybe you can give me a little bit of an understanding of what drove you to write the book in the first place.
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
When I first wrote the book, I didn't have a title for it. When I put the title on it. She Has a Big But: Get Past Your Excuses and Realize Your Dreams. I did that because I had always thought of excuses as being those big buts b - u - t that we put in our lives, right? And it just seemed to make sense when I put out the call for women to submit stories about challenges they had overcome. And I would read the stories and I thought Yes, she got past her big but and this is what it was, you know. So as as it came about it was a project that in the beginning I was just so passionate about. I mean, you know, we've all come through some stuff one way reach my my age. And so I know what it's like to feel so low and then to come back even stronger. And these were the stories that I was looking for. I didn't want to just put a book out with my story and and I wanted to have other people who would experience things that I had not to encourage the readers. So I reached out and I ended up with 15 stories that I call stories of hope. Some of those stories include a cancer diagnosis. Then I have a friend she was a black woman who grew up in Chicago and she explained how she overcame some prejudices and became a very successful business woman. There are two stories about fellow writers. They didn't really have the confidence that there they had the ability to write and then they found courage and confidence and they talked About that, there's a story about something that resonates with me a story about a woman who was really shy. And then, you know, just like my journey she she got past that and found her voice and now gives presentations to large audiences, at least when we're not affected by COVID. And then there was a story of a caregiver who was experiencing some burnout that was caring for her mom. And she found out how to better take care of herself in order to take care of others better. So she shares her story. And she impacts others who are in that same boat, you know, who are caring for other people. There's also a story about a woman who found a way to deal with anger. And then another one that experienced some domestic abuse you know, which happens way too often. That in the back of the book, I also have some resources that you know, you can read the stories of the women, but then you have resources that you can reach out to to find help if you need to. And I also have a little bit in there about how God can help us find our joy and peace because you know, I'm a person of faith. And I believe in that one of the most interesting stories that I really want to share with you today, Rodney, it didn't really come to me. I had to seek it out. And I don't know if, if you've heard of the movie, it was many, many years ago. It was called Lorenzo's Oil. Does that ring a bell?
 
Rodney Olsen 
Yeah, I don't believe I ever saw the movie, but I certainly do remember that title for sure.
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Right. Right. So it starred Susan Sarandon and Nick Nolte, and they were playing the parts. It was a true story. And they played the parts of Augusto and Michaela Odone, whose son Lorenzo had a very rare disease, it was a dystrophy I'm going to call it ALD, because that's the acronym. It's a really long word that I would completely not be able to pronounce well, but it was based on their story that they had lived back in the 70s. Back in that time, there wasn't a lot of medical evidence on ALD and certainly not a cure. But the parents of this five year old boy were very tenacious they didn't have a medical background, but What they did have and what really impressed me and carried me through these years, you may still remember it was that they had an attitude that it was like a never give up attitude, and such a great love for their child, the movie, just, you know, it just moved me. And so I began reading all the stories that were submitted for my book. And I thought about this story about this movie that I'd seen, you know, the story of Lorenzo and how his mom had just completely dedicated herself to finding a cure. And I thought, Gosh, this would be a perfect story for a book about women who had overcome challenges to realize some success, you know, so I thought, wow, you know, I remember back when I when I saw the movie and how the medical community told them that that Lorenzo, who was five probably wouldn't live past 10 years old. That's just what happened in these circumstances, and that they should just keep him as comfortable as possible. And at this point, the parents had seen their son go from being a typical five year old, you know, lots of energy and everything to almost a vegetative state at times, you know, it was just heartbreaking. Through their efforts, he actually lived to be 30 years old, if they had been able to, you know, affect some type of cure before that he would have done better because they were able to help other children who early on had been diagnosed and then able to use this Lorenzo's oil this, this. I'm not even sure what it's called. But it was something that affects myelin because that's, that's one of the things that we have in our bodies that that wasn't right, and Lorenzo's body. So what they've done is they created this foundation that I found out later when I was doing my research. You know, these years later looking for the story for the book. They've created the Myelin Foundation and it promotes research to help find a cure for ALD for multiple sclerosis, and from some sort of other for some other leukodystrophy space. So you know, they're doing great work, right. So my dilemma now was How can I get mckaela odos story in my book, but fortunately now we're in the age of the internet. So, you know, I searched it and I found and heartbreakingly that she had passed away from cancer several years ago. But you know, I'm all about not letting these excuses hold and hold you back. Right? So I found that her husband gussto was still living. And I actually reached out to him. And I said, you know, this story really impacted my life. I remember seeing the movie when I was younger. I've read up on your model and foundation, I think it's great. Is there any way that I could use Michaela's story in my book to help encourage other people? And then I asked that question and I knew this question could either make or break the deal right? asked what would you like in return for allowing me to use the story? And then I kind of held my breath because Rodney, you know, I didn't know if he was gonna say well take about a million dollars. You know what I'm saying? All he wanted in return Rodney was a copy of the book. That's all he asked for. And I was just thrilled. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm really going to get this story in my book. So that was it. And as soon as I had a book in my hand, I went straight to my post office here in Burlington, North Carolina, mailed it to his home in Italy. It cost me 30 bucks, and it was well worth every penny. So I'm very thrilled to have that story in the book as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
The story that you're describing there is of someone who's come up against obstacles and seeing tragedy in their life and yet, has overcome not just for themselves, but for other people. Did you find that that was a common theme with the women that you spoke to that once they overcame their own obstacles they went on to make the world a bit better for others as well?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, it does seem and you've probably experienced this too. When you see somebody that's overcome any kind of obstacle in their own life. They almost seem passionate about helping others overcome similar circumstances. I remember I listened to one of your recent podcasts, Rodney, where you were talking to Cristabelle, about her brain injury, something that she said, really resonated with me. She said, if we wait until we're at 100%, before trying to make a difference or help other people, we might never do anything. And you know, when you talk about the women in this book, that's the thing. They didn't wait until they were 100% healed or 100% better from there, you know, ever come in those circumstances. As they found success. That's when they started to reach out. I just said, believe that. If there's anybody in your audience that that's going through a hard time, find ways intentionally take steps to set yourself up for success, whatever it is, whether it's in a relationship or career, whether you're overcoming some kind of physical problem. I mean, try to be the best you can be but don't wait to be the best you can be in order to reach out and help others because you can do it. As soon as you start to realize that success you can share with other people and bring them along in that journey.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm interested in the process of writing the book and how you gather the stories. You spoke about people submitting stories, what was actually the process of collecting those stories from the ladies who appear in the book?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Well, that's interesting because it kind of worked in a different way. I did put a word out on the internet and said, Hey, I'm writing this book. This is what it's about. If you want to submit a story, here's the email address. And I got several submissions that way. But there were others where I knew people personally and I thought all I know enough about their stories. I really want them to write a chapter for me. So I reached out to a few people and said, Hey, this is what's going on. Would you be willing to share your story? So that's what happened in many instances, but in other instances, people would submit their stories, and I tried to keep their voices within their chapters. You know, I would edit to some degree, but I wanted to keep it real and authentic in their own Words. So there was, there was very little that I've changed in the stories of some women, they would submit their stories and they're like, you know, I don't want to tell them my story to you. But I don't want anybody to know, this is me. So we changed the names. And I have a little disclaimer in there that some of the names on the stories have been changed, you know, just to, to make sure that we kept that on anonymity that they asked for,
 
Rodney Olsen 
For any of the women featured, qas there a sense of hey, how will my story help someone else? Why would my story mean something to anyone but me? Do they find it difficult to believe that others would want to hear about what they had overcome?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
You know, in most instances, they were pretty eager to share. But yes, there there were some where, you know, they thought Why are you talking to me? What do I have to give and I and I hope and I truly believe that? That the ones that did the few that did feel that way, came away realizing that yes, they did have have an impact and a positive impact. There's one in particular. And she's, I wouldn't say shy, but she's sort of a quiet person. And she talked about her experience in overcoming overcoming alcoholism. And I'm not so sure that she truly believed what an impact it would have. But not long after I had order. You know, I had published the book. She asked if she could have several to give out at some talks that she was giving after that about her experience. And for me, that was just amazing. Because even I didn't realize To what degree you know, including 15 stories in this book, how far reaching it could be. It was like, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna put this book together and get it out to readers. But it's so much more than that. Because each one of these women have the potential of going out and touching other lives, and sharing the book and sharing their stories whether they share the book or not just sharing their stories. You never know whose life you're going to touch. I mean, I've had women come up to me, after talks before with tears in their eyes because they grasp a nugget of truth. That's truth for them that something that can change their life. And it humbles me, it truly does. I just can't. It's hard for me to even believe that God has allowed me to be on this earth to make a difference in even one person's life. But when I realized that I'm just so humbled by
 
Rodney Olsen 
Some of the stories, obviously are about women who have more or less climbed a mountain so to speak, they've struggled to overcome obstacles, but for some of them, there's healing required. Did you find that some found healing in sharing their stories?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Yeah, I think so. I haven't reached out to talk to them particularly about that. But just seeing where they where they've gone from here. You know, where they've gone from the day they submitted their story to when the book was published, to being able to share with their friends And family and and people that they speak to if they speak, I don't see how they could not see some type of healing because it truly does is it truly does make a difference when we get our stories out in the public to impact others. It doesn't just impact them, it impacts us as well. And I don't know if you've had that experience Rodney or not. But it's almost like a weight has been lifted off your shoulders, you know, like a burden has been lifted, because it's not just circumstances that are holding you down. But it's a freeing of those circumstances and stepping into that healing and walking through it and bringing others along with you.
 
Rodney Olsen 
The stories are incredible and you've already touched on some of the responses you've received. What's some of the feedback that you have received since publishing the book?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
One of the most interesting things is and you know, we were talking about him earlier and how I didn't really have the title for it in the beginning, everybody seemed to embrace the title, they would say she has a big but, they would laugh and chuckle a little bit, you know, and we would talk about it. And I remember being at a at an event, and I walked by and one of the ladies who had submitted a story in the book was there. And when she saw me, she said, she just yelled across the room. She has a big but. You're the she has a big but speaker, you know, and we were laughing about it. And, you know, it was kind of funny, but I mean, it's, it's something that really sticks in people's minds and I think that's one reason why I like it so much because the stories in there I mean, there's one that's a little humorous, I'm not going to give it away right now. But um, most of them are pretty heavy. You know, most of them are pretty heavy. But when you think about it, and you realize that, you know, we, we do we tend to put these buts in our way, you know, we want to do this but we give our excuse. You know, I want to do this, but I didn't go to college. I can't do that. You know, things like that, when we get those buts out of the way and realize, hey, if I want to do this, if I have a passion about doing something, you can forge ahead and find a way. So I think when it comes to feedback, everybody loved the title they just did. They loved it even more than I did. Because in the beginning, I thought, you know, when people were finding it a little funny, I thought, this isn't really a funny book, you know, but it seems to work. I've appreciated all the all the feedback that I've gotten, and there are certain stories that resonate with certain people more than others. You know,
 
Rodney Olsen 
There are stories of external obstacles that needs to be overcome, but a lot of what you're talking about are sorts of obstacles that we put in our own way. How do we start to deal with that? How do we start to realize that we're sometimes our own worst enemy, and we're the ones creating the obstacles?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
I think you really have to know yourself. You have to be aware of who you are, and what's in your heart. What is that dream that you almost been afraid to dream but you would love it if your life looked like that. Find a way to get there. Let's just take for instance, you know, all this going on, I don't know what it's like over there where you are. But here where I am, you know, we've been kind of locked down for a while, it seems like it's not exactly locked down. But early on when COVID-19 came to our country, and especially here in North Carolina, we were told, you know, go home work from home, that kind of thing. I was staying home or I was having groceries delivered, I wasn't going out too much. And I could have looked at that all that time that I was spinning at home as one of my big buts. Well, I really like to do this. But all the events were being canceled because you know, you're not going out into crowds anymore. Crowds aren't gathering anymore. So that could have been seen as a big but people have found ways to get around that. Like for instance, you know, we're having this conversation and we're miles and miles apart, right? So we found ways to do virtual presentations, even in the comedy world. There's been some comedian, friends of mine who have gotten together on Saturday nights and they've put together clips and they, they've shown them you know, it's like a comedy show, I mean things that we never dreamed of before. So we could have looked at this sheltering in place because of COVID as a big but but you know, there's some good things that that have come out of it. And I think if you look at your life that way, you know, you don't stop at that, but you might have a but there but you don't stop there. You know, you find a way around it if possible. If it's a true dream of yours. I don't know about you, but I'm a grandma. So I was missing my grandkids. You know, once I was sheltering in place, and I thought, Hmm, I don't really like this I don't like not being out there and, and giving them hugs and hearing them call me, me, me and all this stuff. So we would do some video chats and I thought, you know, after after a minute or two a video chatting, I mean, with my kids, it's one thing, but with four year olds, you know, they get bored after a couple minutes if you're not doing something fun. So I decided, I'm going to write some kids stories and I'm going to read These stories and I'm going to be animated on this video chat. And we had the best time. So now I have these three kids stories about a tiger and his friends. And I'm thinking about publishing a book with those in the air, you know, that never would have happened if I hadn't had this big, but that I got out of the way because I was sheltered in place at home. So, you know, good things can come out of what we see sometimes as a big but as a big excuse in our way. But if we just think kind of outside of the box, you know, to coin the phrase, just start thinking differently and being intentional about what we want to do. I've also started working on a book, it's actually a novel that set of course in the year 2020, because this is a crazy year. So you know, hopefully that'll work out as well. And then a couple years ago, I started on a fit after 50 book that I sort of put to the side so I've pulled that back out because you know, I have more time now. So what looked like something that could have shut me down and you know, kind of gotten in my way has really given me the chance to do some things that I just didn't have time to do before.
 
Rodney Olsen 
If you could go back and speak to that young woman in a fragile state after a bad divorce, sitting behind a desk at a lab and tell her that everything's going to be alright. How would that conversation go?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
I think at that point, she was so fragile, to have me enthusiastically say, you just got to get past that, you know, you just got to get to the other side that would not have worked. You know, I think I would have had to help her see, that, you know, little by little step by step. You can live a better life. Maybe seeing the big picture like where I am today that might have scared that woman off you know, she would have been like, I can't ever do that. You know, but but just to come along slowly. First, it started with the self help book. That I was pouring good things into my mind. Through that I learned about self talk and how important that was, you know, so that was another step. There was a time where I really wanted to turn my back on my faith because of all the bad things that were happening. You know, it's easy to blame God when sometimes it's our own choices that put us where we are, right. And so I found a way to regain and reclaim my faith. And to me that strengthened to me as well. So it was little by little it was it was almost like baby steps leading up to where I where I was going. And I don't want to discourage anybody and say, it's going to take you years to go from here to there. Some people go, you know, you go at your own pace, but for me where I was, I needed to take the slow road, you know, I needed to take it little by little because I had so much junk inside of me to overcome. It wasn't gonna happen overnight. And that was okay. Because I think as long as we move forward, you know, that's how All we can do and sometimes it's like taking two steps forward and one step back. I mean, that's just how it works. Sometimes it kind of works that way with grief, too. You know, when you lose a loved one, you don't just continue to get better over time. Sometimes you have good days. And sometimes you have bad days where you just missed them so terribly, you know, so it's not something that you can say, here's the cookie cutter, you know, everybody that does this is going to get here. But there are steps that we all can take. And most of it really is just knowing who we are and where we are at the time, identifying what's holding us back, identifying that big but, and then trying to identify the steps it's going to take to get us on the other side of that,.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Jean, I'm going to put the details of how people can contact you in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net but for those listening, if they did want to catch up with you online, where's the best place to go?
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Okay, my website jeanbailyrobor.com is a good place to start. Also, you can find me on Facebook, LinkedIn, on Twitter at .... you know, my name is Jean Bailey Robor. Apparently I'm the only one in the world so it's not hard to find me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Remember those details will be in our show notes at bleedingdaylight.net. Jean, it has been a tremendous opportunity to chat with you to hear about overcoming obstacles and I understand that we all have our own mountains to climb, but we can overcome them. There is hope. Thank you so much for being generous with your time on Bleeding Daylight.
 
Jean Bailey Robor 
Thank you, Rodney. It's been a pleasure.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

Cristabelle Braden is a courageous young woman who continually defies the odds. She had a severe brain injury that could have cost her her life. Doctors didn’t expect her to even make it through high school. Her story of continually overcoming setbacks is inspiring.
 
 
Website: https://cristabellebraden.com/
Online Store: https://shop.cristabellebraden.com/
Declaration Life Podcast: https://cristabellebraden.com/declarationlife
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cristabellebradenmusic
Twitter: https://twitter.com/itscristabelle
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.) 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen
Please remember that you can find Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. I’d love to connect with you through social media. Sharing this and other episodes of Bleeding Daylight will help shine even more light into the darkness.
 
Today’s guest is a courageous young woman who continually defies the odds. She had a severe brain injury that could have cost her her life. Doctors didn’t expect her to even make it through high school. Her story of continually overcoming setbacks is inspiring.
Cristabelle Braden is an award winning singer, songwriter, speaker, author and host of the podcast Declaration Life. That's an impressive list of achievements but there was a time that doctors believed that she would never be able to even complete high school. Cristabelle's story is simply amazing. And I'm honored to have her join me on Bleeding Daylight, Cristabelle. Welcome.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Thank you so much for having me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
There's a major incident that radically changed your life and I want to explore that but firstly, what was life like before that incident?
 
Cristabelle Braden 
So I had a traumatic brain injury, my first brain injury when I was in high school, and it completely changed my life. Beforehand, I was an honor student. I was in line for valedictorian. I was 14, I was in 10th grade because I was put a year ahead in school and I was pretty active. I did sports and dance. I did a lot of theater. And I just was a typical active, happy teenager. And then one day changed my life forever.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Tell me about that incident. What actually happened?
 
Cristabelle Braden 
So it actually happened from playing the game Red Rover at my church's youth group. Have you heard of that game?
 
Rodney Olsen 
I haven't. Maybe you can. Maybe you enlighten us.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
It could be an American thing. Yeah. It's a kids game. It's a running game. So basically, there are two teams on one side, everybody lines up and then on the other side, everybody lines up and the goal is they call somebody over Red Rover Red Rover, send Cristabelle on over, then that's my cue to run. So the goal of the game is to break through their hands and they hold their hands as tightly as possible. Needless to say, it did not go as planned. When I went to run. They said Red Rover Red Rover send Cristabelle on over and that's the last thing I remember for about a year and a half. I've been told what happened, all the boys on my side of the my team decided to run behind me and rush the other team. And instead of breaking through their hands, they dropped their hands. So I ran full force and hit my head on a concrete wall. I had bounced off the floor and I was knocked unconscious.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And as you say, the first thing you really remember was quite some time after that, but from the reports you got, did you seem alright, were you rushed to hospital? What was the action that happened at that moment?
 
Cristabelle Braden 
So I came to after we think about a minute or two, we don't actually know how long I was unconscious, but from what the kids had told my parents when I came to I seemed totally fine, normal, wasn't showing signs of concussion. Normally, when somebody hits their head, they get a bump on their head which is outside of their skull. There's a swelling or a bump, and you want there to be a bump when you hit your head, that's a good thing. Instead of it's swelling outside of my skull, my brain started swelling. So while I seemed totally fine and totally normal the night that it happened, my brain started to swell and swell and swell. I wasn't sent to the ER. The adults that were there that night, didn't call my parents and tell them anything happened and I got sent home with the carpool. Everyone acted like it was fine, like nothing happened. Three days later, my brain had swelled so much that I couldn't walk straight. I had blurry vision, I couldn't hold conversations. I was functioning around the level of a small child I had to relearn how to get dressed, how to take a shower, I lost a lot of my speech abilities. I struggled with some muscle spasms, the right side of my body, the muscles atrophied and I basically was functioning around the level of a small child
 
Rodney Olsen 
And when you started displaying these symptoms, your parents hadn't been told that anything had happened. So this must have been incredibly concerning for them.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Yes. And they did say that when I came home that night, I told them that I had hit my head. But they were thinking if it was a big deal, somebody would have called or something. So they were aware that I'd gotten hit on the head. But we didn't know how severe it was. Until you've had a concussion or brain injury. You've met somebody who's had it, you don't realize how much one hit to the head. Well, in my case, it was hit to the head and bouncing off the floor. But you don't realize how much that can really affect your brain.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And a lot of the story that you're telling at the moment of that actual incident and and what happened immediately afterwards, I'm sure are just details that have been recalled to you that they don't actually remember happening.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Yeah, I don't remember it at all. More recently been starting to remember some flashes around when it happened. It was over 10 years ago. So it's been a long journey, but I don't remember it at all. There's just giant holes in my memory.
 
Rodney Olsen  
What sort of an effect has it had long term? What was the rehabilitation that you had to go through to get to where you are now?
 
Cristabelle Braden 
So I went through occupational therapy, speech therapy, cognitive therapy, physical therapy. I eventually started doing vision therapy and vestibular therapy, once I learned about what those were once we learned about them. But it's really been a long journey of just relearning common sense. I know it sounds odd, but that was like my biggest deficit and struggle because I wouldn't remember to look for cars and crossing the street, or my short term memory was so bad that I would be confused all the time. I wouldn't even remember that. That morning, I would forget I ate breakfast, I'd eat breakfast for four or five bowls of cereal in the morning because I would forget that I'd eaten. And everything just became confusing and disorienting. I remember feeling so confused, and I got really bad pain in my head and migraines. It was like, my brain had just been shaken up so much. Like if you picture a puzzle, you know, if it's put together that's kind of like your healthy brain. But you know, when you shake it all up, all the pieces get disconnected. And it was like there are certain places that were still connecting. But then there were other places that were completely misplaced and didn't make sense. And it's been a really long journey. I've been reinjured. I've had more concussions since the first one. My balance was so bad that I would fall all the time and I re injured my brain so reinjuring my brain has not helped the recovery process. But I know that the Lord is my healer. And he's brought me so far. And the doctor is, like you said, didn't even think I finished high school. And I was able, I took an extra year. But I was able to finish high school and I was able to go to college. And I'm actually I now just started grad graduate school, the struggles, some of them have gone away. Some of them are still there. Some days are harder than other days. There are some days I'm in extreme pain. And then there are other days that you know, I get up and I can, you know, function pretty on a pretty good basis. But it's been just a really long journey of learning to let go of my expectations of what I think life is going to be like and take it on a one day at a time.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Tell me about the kind of diagnosis that the doctors gave you back then, as we've said, they didn't believe you'd ever finish high school, let alone go to college and go on and study after that. But what would their expectations of you back then?
 
Cristabelle Braden 
So my, the first doctor that we saw was a neurologist that said, I had a mild concussion, I'd be fine in six weeks. The thing about brain injury is it's invisible. So even though I had some clear deficits, this was like I said, over 10 years ago, so there was a lot less awareness about brain injuries than there are now. But they said you'll be fine. In six weeks, six weeks came and went, I was worse. I wasn't better. So my parents found a different doctor, and I got proper testing done and I went gotten the therapies and they did neuropsychological testing, and tested my and found the areas that I cognitively had struggles. A big concern was my memory loss. I can't tell you how that was their sword. I don't have an explanation for it. The doctor didn't even have an explanation for it. I believe I have faith, I believe that it was the Lord. But my short term memory was really, really bad. Like, I couldn't tell you what I did that morning. So that's come a long way. But at the time, yeah, they, they told my parents to be prepared that I would be highly disabled and dependent on them the rest of my life that my cognitive abilities might not return. And so I was a teenager, I would throw temper tantrums, like a toddler like a two or three year olds. And I couldn't control my emotions because I had frontal lobe damage. And so I would snap at the smallest things or I would just start sobbing if something upset me the tiniest bit and it was really a challenge on Even figuring out how to get through every day,
 
Rodney Olsen 
You've touched a couple of times there on faith taking you through,. Tell us about your faith and what part that has played in your healing.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
It's honestly been everything earlier on in the recovery process. So my right side got weakened. And that's the side that I'm right handed. So I had to relearn my handwriting and how to write and my mom told me the story on this was maybe, I don't know if it was like six months or a year, but I don't remember it. But it was within that first couple years that I don't remember. And she came into my room and found me writing, really trying hard and just like writing every letter that I could, and I was copying Bible verses from the New Testament and I was reading them on index cards and taping them on my walls. Now, of course, like I mentioned earlier, because Common Sense piece was kind of not there. So I was using like, duct tape, like the kind of tape you don't put on paint. Because I hadn't remembered that you shouldn't do that. But, um, the idea was, and my mom asked me why I was doing that. And I said, because I need God, I need I need reminders. And so I have found some old journals from them and the handwriting, you know, the handwriting of like an eight year old. Yeah, that's kind of how it looks. And it was just me and I would I just have all these Bible verses just printed out and copied through and I don't remember that time. But what I do remember is when I started when I started having some memories back is I would just pray constantly, I would ask God to help me get through every day because I was in constant pain. I was constantly confused. One of the things that when you don't have a brain injury, before my brain injury happened, you don't think about how much you use your brain until it stops working. Right? So I would ask God to help me and be my memory. Because I was I was scared all the time. Like, what if I forget this? Or what if I don't remember this? Or, you know, I, I was just constantly in this state of confusion and I think I've really learned what dependence on God means. Because I couldn't even depend on my own mind. And that's something that has carried me through over the last decade of my, my journey is on the days that I still have head pain. I remind myself how far I've come. You know, I I'm capable of so much more than doctors ever thought I would. Now I still don't have a driver's license. I can't medically have a driver's license because I'm not aware of my surroundings enough I had my we tried one time I went to a driving program at the hospital and we tried working on that. And while my reaction time was in the legal limits, so to say, I had no spatial awareness what was around me, so it really did not go well. So, you know, I don't have a driver's license, there's a lot of things that I cannot do. But the Lord has led me on the things that I can and I started writing music after my brain injury. I never wrote a single song before it happened and again, in those first couple years that I barely remember, I was writing hundreds and hundreds of songs, and I never, it was not a talent that was there before. And the doctors think that it's possible the brain in the brain injury caused it that somehow hitting my head caused me to be able to write songs but that really helped get me through everything. And so I was just writing songs and writing songs. And the first time somebody asked me to sing them, I was like, Oh, sure, I guess and I started singing them around in like local coffee shops and one local singer songwriter, he heard me perform. And he had found my parents and asked them if I could come and open for him at all of his shows. He had a full schedule. And so I was started having gigs every weekend, opening for this singer songwriter, this local singer songwriter, he was such a nice man. He has a nonprofit that helps veterans. He's a pastor, and he's around my parents age. And so he really God used him to open up the doors into music, and since then, I studied music in college, and I started after college. touring nationally and playing concerts and writing, putting out CDs. And that's something that I never, ever would have considered before my brain injury. I wanted to be an attorney. So it music wasn't even something I was thinking about. But the biggest thing has been focusing on what I can do rather than what I can't. And so, music is a gift I never had before. And if it can encourage one person, I write songs about my journey through brain injury and about faith, with the hopes that they encourage people to keep going.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And there's some great music too. I will put a link to your website in the show notes of this episode at bleedingdaylight.net so that people can get on there and listen to some of your music because I'm sure that they will enjoy it. Some great stuff there. So you're performing you're recording and this is a whole new life, but it doesn't stop there. You're also speaking out on behalf of others who suffer from brain injuries, tell me a little about that.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
When you go through something hard, or something traumatic in life, I think kind of the natural response is, you want to make a difference. Like once you kind of get on the other side a little bit yourself. I started posting videos about what it was like to have a brain injury about five years ago. I didn't really think anyone was going to see them. I just wanted to talk about what it was like. And then one of my videos which is called You Look Fine, the Struggle of an Invisible Injury started to get shared and shared and shared. And I wouldn't say viral because it didn't go like worldwide or anything, but it got over 100,000 views out of nowhere, and I was like, whoa. And from there, I started getting invitations to speak at brain injury conferences. These organizations started contacting me to come and speak at their event. And I was like, Oh, I guess Sure. And I kind of fell into it in a sense. But the more that I started speaking about brain injury I have, I have a online community called Hope After Head Injury, about finding hope after having any type of head injury and it's really addressing the emotional side of living with traumatic brain injuries, or strokes, or brain aneurysms or any kind of injury to your brain. That's then led me to get involved in the Brain Injury Association of America. And I've done advocacy work on Capitol Hill meeting with members of Congress and advocating for brain injury survivors, because I know what it's like to not be able to speak and express myself. And there's a lot of survivors out there that by me, using my voice to talk about it can help make a difference.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I'm sure that you're not only giving hope to those who have suffered brain injury but those who are their loved ones. And not everyone will have the kind of healing story that you have. But you must be giving hope to a lot of people through what you're presenting it a lot of these places.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Thank you. I hope so I really I really do. I am because I still, I still struggle with it. It's not like I'm on the complete other side. You know, I found myself tonight, as we're recording this interview mixing up my words a little bit. And it doesn't happen all the time. And some days are harder than other days and some days, my balance goes off and my vision gets blurry and I have trouble functioning. But that's part of the journey. And if we wait until we're 100% on the other side, before trying to help people or make a difference, we might never do anything and so if anyone's listening, if you've ever gone through anything, or you have something inside of you that you want to make a difference, but you don't know how to get started or you don't know if you're ready, I just want to encourage you to know that no matter where you are at, you can still make an impact greater than you know, by being honest and authentic and real about who you are and about your experience in life and whatever thing that you want to make an impact on. Just know that you have something to offer. You're the only person in the whole world with your story. And we can use our stories to help and make a difference for others who might be in similar situations who might not know how to say it.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned that you never thought that music would be part of your future. And I imagine you never thought that speaking to people in Congress would be part of your future. That must be an interesting experience to be able to speak out on behalf of others in front of those who lead your land.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Yeah, it is. I was really nervous. First time I've, they have a brain injury Awareness Day every year on Capitol Hill run by the Brain Injury Association of America, and their representatives from every state across the country that come and I go in helping to represent my home state of Pennsylvania. The first time I went, I think was 2017. And I was so nervous. But it's gotten easier over time because they're just people. If it makes a difference for me to share my experience. We bring up certain legislation and pieces of legislation and health reform and issues that are coming across that affect people with brain injuries. They say that having a face or talking to someone who's actually lived through it helps them to know who they're fighting for. So to say when the legislation comes across their desk, it's not just the topic on brain injury, but they think, oh, I've actually met with this group. And that's actually real people that are being affected. And so that's kind of what we try to do in the advocacy.
 
Rodney Olsen 
A lot of your performances have been in the coffee shops, as you mentioned, and other places like that. But you also spend time performing at hospitals at rehab centers for some of the brain injury groups, even homeless shelters and prison ministries. You have a very wide sphere of influence, don't you?
 
Cristabelle Braden 
It's only by God's grace, I just I'm willing to go where he opens the doors and sometimes those doors have taken me to very interesting places.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And even though the struggles that the people that you're talking to are not the same as your own, I guess they see a connection in facing struggles and moving on with life.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Yeah, I mean, I hope so. I usually my songs are about hope. And you know your topic of your podcast Bleeding Daylight, I actually have a song called light in the dark and it's about holding on to that light through the dark times. And if one word or one note, or one chorus of a song can touch somebody's heart, and let them know that they're not alone in what they're feeling and facing, it's completely worth it. When I'll do tours. We would have concerts on the weekends, at churches or music venues. Sometimes I would do worship leading or do a concert at an event or conference or whatever. But during the week, I would always find places to go and Minister with my band. So that's where we'd end up going to the homeless shelters or the prisons or things like that. Because whatever city that we're in, I always I don't just want to go there, play a concert and leave like to me, I want to really be the hands and feet of Jesus wherever I can go, and if I can bring one person help by singing, then that's what I want to do. More often than not my favorite times at all the shows or ministry events, or wherever I'm at is praying with people, you know, I'm always honored anytime anybody shares some of their journey with me. And after the events, often people will come up and share some of their own struggles and share some of their own journey. And I think of it as a great privilege to be able to be there and just maybe hug them or cry with them or pray with them. Just be that person that can say you're not alone, right now and God loves you.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You've been able to find so many ways to express yourself. And another way that you've done that is through writing. You've written a book. Tell me about that.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Yes. So It is called More to Me: Discovering Your Freedom Through Identity. And it's actually a devotional prayer journal type book. I wrote it based on the lyrics of one of my songs by the same name called More to Me, and it's about how there's more to us than our struggles. The book really takes you through a journey on dealing with difficult emotions, through understanding that God loves us through finding rest and owning your story and knowing it's okay to struggle. And there's more to you than whatever you've been through.
 
Rodney Olsen 
What's some of the feedback that you've received from some people who've had the book?
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Yeah, I've received some really great feedback. It's really humbling. I published it independently. I really was just thinking it would be something that it was something I wanted to share. But I would sell it on my merch tables or on my website, and I didn't realize how far reaching it would be. Often people would buy it and then they would come back and buy it for their friend or their daughter or their aunt or their sister or whatever. And then I get emails from people saying how much it helped them. And that just really meant a lot to me. And it does mean a lot. Because I didn't really have any expectations. I just wanted to create something to help people through the struggles that I know that I go through. It's been really great. I released it. Two years ago, a little over two years ago, and I've been writing some new I've been reading a new book and it's all the things I love reading.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And as I talk to you, I get this feeling that you just constantly doing what you feel you should do. Each time you think this is for a few people. And God says no, this this has got to go wider.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
No, thank you that that just really encouraged me today. It's humbling and I've released music. I'm an independent artists. I've never had a manager or record label or anything. And I was going on tour doing 80 shows a year on the road, two years straight. And it's all been word of mouth. Literally everything has just been. Somebody would see me at one show, tell somebody else, they'd invite me to their church, they would invite me in and things just grew from there. And so I can definitely see the Lord's hand in it. Sometimes I get unsure of where I'm going or what I'm doing, especially, I think so many of us have felt that way this year. I released an album in March, actually. And I had a whole bunch of shows booked and not even the album release show got to happen. Back in January, I felt like the Lord was calling me to apply to graduate school. So I applied and I was thinking I'd start in the fall to online program, I'm actually going to send my I am working towards a Master's of Divinity in Biblical Studies. Because of everything getting canceled. I was actually able to start school about six months earlier than I thought. And I could just see the leading of the Lord back in January to apply. I thought it was kind of ridiculous to apply that far in advance. But I was like, You know what, I could just get everything in order ahead of time, and I'll be ready to go for the fall. And it was just crazy because I was already accepted into the program and already had the financial piece together. I was able to start earlier. And so right now, I'm focusing on school, and learning and growing and growing and writing. And that's been a journey too, because with my brain injury, I always have felt very limited by my TBI. It stands for traumatic brain injury and I felt like there's a lot I can't do and I was really nervous about Trying to go to school and do this with my headaches. And there are still some days that I can't look at a screen and my vision gets blurry and I can't work on my computer. But then there are other days that I can just feel the Lord is strengthening me through it. And I'm growing as a writer and as a person, hopefully. And that's where I'm at in this current season.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And on top of all those things, you've also been releasing episodes of a podcast Declaration Life. Tell me a bit about that.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Yes, so Declaration Life is a podcast I launched at the beginning of this year. It goes along with the title of my album, which is called Declaration. And another piece of my testimony of my story is I am a survivor of an abusive relationship, domestic violence relationship. There was a really awful situation And he abused me and took advantage of my brain injury and it's only by the grace of God, I escaped that. And I suffered extreme PTSD and depression and anxiety. And I had to go through a healing process. And my new album declaration tells the story of coming out of that. And I stopped touring and I just shut down. I couldn't function and I felt really worthless. The podcast was actually born out of a resolve, to not allow that experience to silence me and to allow women to share their stories of things they've gone through. So I interview women who've been through different experiences. Some have been through domestic violence, some have been through brain injury. Some just have encouraging conversations, every episodes a little bit too. But the theme is living your life intentionally. After being in an abusive relationship, I didn't know that I could leave. I didn't know I could walk away. After the beginning, I felt trapped and I felt scared and I felt like I had to stay with him and I was afraid of what he'd do if I ever left. I did leave and I have legal protection. Now, I have a legal order of protection. So it's like a restraining order. He can't come near me. Through that process. I really have grown in wanting to help other women to know and everyone, people, men, anyone, to be more empowered and know that you can choose how you live your life. And so Declaration Life is about declaring truth over your life and not allowing lies and negative thought patterns to influence you to instead make intentional decisions on a daily basis. And know that, you know, there's a lot we talked a lot about faith on the podcast and different struggles. No matter what you've gone through. You can live an intentional life, you can live a declaration life, you can declare truth over your life. You can reclaim your story. You can live empowered and know that you're not defined by the things that have happened to you. So that's kind of the inspiration behind starting the podcast, and the heart behind the episodes.
 
Rodney Olsen 
If we were able to rewind back to your high school years, and we were able to take you to that youth group and stop that brain injury from happening. Would you take that opportunity and say, I don't want to go there.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
That's such an interesting question, because in a lot of ways, I'm not thankful. I have of brain injury, the it's not just me that it's affected my whole family, the struggle that it affected on my entire family and the pain everyone's gone through. I mean, I wish that I could take that pain away from my parents and my siblings. My sisters were really hurt. You know, my, my sister felt like she lost her sister. I wouldn't wish a brain injury on anyone but at the same time, I don't think I would want to stop it because through the pain and the struggles, I've come to know God on a deeper level. And there's been so many people that my music and things that in ways that I didn't even realize that it's made a difference. And so I would never want to trade those blessings that have come out of it for anything. Plus, I've seen enough sci fi time travel movies to know if you mess up with one thing, probably something worse happens like, in Back to the Future,
 
Rodney Olsen 
As we look back at the various things that you you've had happen in your life, time and time again, you talk about, as I say, this faith in Jesus that has made a difference for you. And I get the impression that as you speak to people in various situations, the story that you're telling is whether it's a brain injury or something else, that there is something in this God that you worship, there is something about him that will make the most out of any situation. Do you hear that coming back from people that you speak to?
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Yeah, absolutely. He He's, he's the strength. You know, when we're weak, he's strong. He, he's brought freedom into my heart. Through Jesus, I have freedom that I never could have. in any other way, and the relationship with God has been everything. There's no way that I would have come out of the depression that I was in right after the brain injury happened. I don't think I ever would have been writing songs or doing anything, I might have even taken my own life like, I was so hopeless like, I couldn't see. I felt like brain damage was the only thing that I could ever have. And that I had no hope I have an album called Hope Survives an organization called Hope After Head Injury. Both of those have hope in the title because I remember what it's like to not have hope and to feel hopeless. And it is an awful reality, to feel like there's no way out and God has shown me through his love for me and his healing and even in the still struggles that I have with the brain injury, like I know God has healed me. And while I still have headaches and still have struggles, he strengthens me to get through them all. And he's shown me love and freedom that has enabled me to live a life that I am thankful for. And I feel grateful every day to have survived and to be able to keep going. I didn't say this at the beginning, but the pressure in my head, the doctors actually think it's a miracle that I lived through the night that my brain injury happened because the swelling was so great that normally people would need to be in the ER. And there's a high risk of not even surviving through going to sleep with that type of brain swelling. And I'm still here, and I know that's only by the grace of God.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm convinced that we haven't heard the last of you that God has plenty of other things in store for you. You seem to be able to go from one thing to the next with his strength. And we certainly hear that it's a struggle. But if there is someone struggling in the moment that they don't feel that they have this hope that you're speaking about, what would your encouragement be to them?
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Whatever you're struggling with, on whatever level wherever you're at, remind yourself that tomorrow will still be here. The sun goes down and comes up every day. And sometimes if you only have to take it through the next 10 minutes, take it 10 minutes at a time. breathe through it, and pray. For me reading the Word of God helped me get through everything. Psalms, Psalm 23 Lord is my shepherd I shall not want that Psalm helped me through so much. Find somebody to talk to somebody that you know will give you good advice, not a negative Nancy, find someone who'll encourage you. You could even go in the phone booth and phone up a church. If you need help and find somebody to talk to that can encourage you. But I can guarantee from my life experience, that God is real and he cares about you. He cares about us. I can't fathom why he created the whole universe, but he decided to create us too. And he cares about the details of our lives. He cares about every little detail, everything, every hair on your head. He is there for you and he wants to hear from us. And Jesus died for us, because He loves us that much. And so he's demonstrated his love for through pain and suffering, so that we can be free. And so whatever you're going through, hold on to that hope and know that you are not alone. God does care about you. He is listening. I remember praying and being like, God, Are you even listening? I don't even know. Like, do you even hear me? And even much later he would answer those exact prayers. I just didn't hear it right away. I didn't see it right away. It took time. But he is listening, and he does care. And hold on. There is hope.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Cristabelle, it's been a real delight to speak to you today. Thank you so much for your time. We wish you well. We'll put links in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that people can get to your website and to listen to your music and hear more about what you're doing. But thank you so much for your time.
 
Cristabelle Braden 
Thank you so much for having me and thank you for doing this incredible podcast.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Jane'alam Sheikh grew up in Kolkata, India. As a young boy, he saw people starving and suffering in the slums of that city. The experiences of his youth gave him a heart to make a difference for people living in poverty. He co-founded Pursuit International, an organization working to empower people restricted by physical and spiritual poverty to pursue a life of hope and purpose.
 
 
Pursuit International: https://pursuitinternational.org/
Pursuit International Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pursuitint
Compassion International: http://compassion.com
Compassion Australia: http://compassion.com.au
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
Emily Olsen:
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen:
I want to start with a thank you to those who have left reviews for Bleeding Daylight and those who have been sharing episodes. I really do appreciate it.
Please remember that you can find Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. I’d love to connect with you through social media.
Today’s guest is inspirational. After overcoming so much in his own life, he’s now making a difference for others. I can’t wait to introduce you, and as always, please share this episode with others.
 
Jane'alam Sheikh grew up in Kolkata, India. As a young boy, he saw people starving and suffering in the slums of that city. The experiences of his youth gave him a heart to make a difference for people living in poverty. He studied in the UK, graduating from Manchester University with a Masters in Business Administration. He then co-founded Pursuit International, an organization working to empower people restricted by physical and spiritual poverty to pursue a life of hope and purpose. It's an honor to have him join us on bleeding daylight, Jane' thank you for your time.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Rodney Olsen:
I want to know about those slums in India that I mentioned. Can you give us a bit of an understanding of what life is like for those living in a slum?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Yes. you see I have experienced poverty first hand, but I was also born into generational poverty. My mum grew up in poverty. My dad grew up in poverty. My mum grew up in a village that there was no electricity, no school work and kids from the age of six or seven will work in the farm with their parents to make sure there is enough to eat. My mum was 14 when she got married, not because she wanted to, but that's what happened to a young girls there. They have to be married off early and she was 15 when I was born. She was 17 when my sister was born. So my mom never really got to experience a childhood and obviously I was born into a slum in Calcutta. It was kind of a refugee slum. When in 1947, India was broken into three smaller countries, India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and it caused massive civil war and stuff.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
And many people lost their home and became refugees in India. And they found this little open space when they came and started living in slum dwellings. So that's where my grandparents lived. That's where my father was born. And that's where I was born. Just to give you a little picture it was a community of roughly about 10,000 people in about one square kilometer area. You know, our typical house would be eight by 10 foot in area, families of six or seven would be living there. There was two toilets and then one tap for the entire community. As girls, boys, men, women, we used open drains as toilet. I always say one of the first things that poverty did for me and my people in the community was it took away dignity from our lives. So yeah, that's where I was born.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
You know, you had to collect buckets of water every day for all your years. Cause the tap around a couple of us in the day and we would wait for our parents to come home who goes out every day, looking for jobs. And the days when they wouldn't find any work with men, that we would go to bed hungry. So I grew up in the midst of diseases like malaria, dengue, diarrhea, because when it would rain, the community would get flooded. And you can imagine with the open drains used as toilet, the flood is not just rainwater the sewage and faeces floating around. So grew up in the midst of hunger, starvation, but also suffering from all these diseases because people couldn't access medical care. Yeah. So as a kid I felt very hopeless and scared to be very honest because you don't know what your future holds. You see people suffering and dying and that makes you feel scared. Let's say poverty is an injustice. It takes away hope from your life. It takes away dignity from your life makes you feel there's nothing you can do in your power to change your circumstances.
Rodney Olsen:
I suppose that growing up we only know what we only know. So this was your experience, right from the start. When do you first remember realizing that life wasn't this way for everyone and that you were living at disadvantage because of poverty?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Yeah. I mean, I experienced that quite early because like any place around the world, India, more so is a land of extremes. There were places which was not poverty stricken. You know, you see high rise buildings and children going to school and people going out to eat and restaurants, the extremes of life of privilege live and, and life in poverty was quite evident as it at an early stage, which was also quite disempowering because you know that there's nothing in your power to take you out from where you were. I was about five, six years old when it was very clear that our circumstances limited us and kept us in this trap because there was no opportunity to get education. You will always dependent on hand to mouth, you know, depending on work that was available for your parents, there was a cost system. So you came from a certain place. So you are not able to get to white collar jobs, let's say and there was discrimination. So it was pretty evident from early on that this is what is our story going to be. We are stuck in here and there is no way out.
Rodney Olsen:
There's this sense of being stuck and I'm wondering within that, knowing that this is a generational issue and that this has continued for, for generation after generation in your family, was there a sense that, well, this is what it's like? This is all there's going to be? Or was there a sense of injustice that rose up within you trying to find a way out?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
A bit of both, actually one of the worst things of poverty is it makes you believe there is no hope. I always say living in poverty is like living in a well as a frog. You know, the walls of injustice are so high that you don't see any other possibilities. So that was, there was a sense of dread that this is how my grandparents live. This is my, how my father grew up. This is how I grew up. This is going to be my reality. But also there was this frustration that you knew, well, if you, if only you could go to school, you can have education. You can then work your way out, but there was no opportunities. So that was the big frustration that there was no way for us to access that and make a difference by working hard. So there was a sense of that this is going to be stuck in here because we can't access anything that would empower us to change our circumstances.
Rodney Olsen:
So really the systems that existed were against you. What can you do when there are systems like that and what actually happened for you because obviously life did change for you. Where did that change?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Unfortunately, I'm talking about 25 years ago. You know, the challenges for the Indian government was huge. There was a huge population of people living in poverty and the government is trying to support in ways they can, but also as a developing nation, it has its challenges at this corruption in the system, there is limitation of resources. So yeah, you were disadvantaged by the lack of support from the system, but yeah, you're right, Rodney, if you see me, you don't, you wouldn't say I grew up in poverty. Amazing things happened when I was about five, six years old and it was all because of what local people decided to do for its local neighbors. There was a church community in Iraq, slum and they saw what was going on for generations in this community. And they wanted to help. And one of the things they wanted to do was bring empowerment in the lives of people and children in that community.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
So they partnered with this international development organization called Compassion that works in partnership with local churches and really local people who understand the local issues and the best way to address them. So these people we knew from this local church came to our families and said, we want to help you guys. We want to help your children. Would you allow us, allow us to help you? So our parents were very excited. The city of what, what, what can we do? They said, well, we're going to bring education for your children. We're going provide healthcare services and food service food produce. So you can feed your children essentially. What happened when I was five years old, I got sponsored through compassion and to the work of this local church, which meant I became the first child in a community of about 10,000 people to go to school for the first time.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
And it was incredible. It's not something that my parents thought would happen in my life. Obviously all, all parents have hopes and dreams for their children. And all my parents wanted was that my sister and I would be able to have a different life than what they've experienced, but they knew they couldn't make that happen in their own. So my parents were delighted when they found out I was going to be going to school. I remember my dad was more excited than me. I received a, the school uniform pack and my dad opened it up and he was so excited and he was confused. See this piece of rope, which he thought rope was actually my school tie, but we have to go back and ask the people in the school. How do you put this on? So I don't know if you have this Rodney where you live, but we got a tie with the hook that went on my shirt collar. School was incredible.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
One of my, one of my fondest memories of my childhood was teaching my parents how to write their names. You know, it was education brought empowerment, you know, teaching my father, how to write his name, teaching my mom, how to write a name. My family knew immediately that things were going to be different for the future, because education will put me in a place where I could access those opportunities. I could get a job. I could work myself out. And my family out of poverty. I remember getting very, very ill when I was a child because of malaria and diarrhea and stuff. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say, I wouldn't be alive today, if I didn't have support from the local church with the sponsorship of Compassion, to go to the hospital and then access medical care. So that's when things changed for me by five years old, when some local people decided they want to help the children in the community and through the support of Compassion, lots of kids got sponsors. Yeah. So I was not the only one. I was the first one, but hundreds of other children got help and we started getting education and all the other support, which was really to empower us to change our circumstances.
Rodney Olsen:
You mentioned the excitement of teaching, both your father and your mother, how to write their own names. But I imagine that that would be bitter sweet because we expect it's the parents that hand those things down to the children. Was there a mix of emotions in that?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Of course, that's the norm. You learn to do those things from your parents. And that's something as a father, as a mother, you look forward to, but that's the injustice of poverty as well. And that's a good example of, you know, how poverty limits you and how it takes away the joys and the little things in life that we take for granted really. But also it was exciting because my father knew his story. Wasn't going to be his children's story and an excitement, almost like my parents live their dreams and their hopes for their life through me. I remember when I was I used to have school exams. I was always a last minute guy. I mean, I somehow did okay. In school, but I would always have to put an all nighter before the exam. I didn't have it in me to should do regular revision throughout the time.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
But my dad I mean, he could not read and write the things that I was reading. He wouldn't understand it, but he was sitting next to me and just listen to me, revise. And I used to tell my dad go to bed. What are you doing? He was like, I love this. I love the fact that you are reading and that you are studying all this biology, physics, and chemistry. And it just made me realize that also for him, he was experiencing all those things that we all get to do. If we grew up, grew up in an environment like in England or in Australia or in America, or in most parts of the developed world that he didn't through me, he was living that for himself. So there was this great excitement for that. Yes, that sadness of, I didn't get that when I was a child, but the huge excitement that, you know, I can, my children are having it. And I know that it's going to be different for them in the life. So it was, it was very much a bit of sweet, more sweet than bitter. My dad was a person who, who lived in the positives in that he would expect a good things coming out of a situation, not dwelling the negatives too much. You can't really afford to when you live in poverty, if you hold onto the negatives, it probably will never be able to come out of a deep hole because there's so much negatives that you can latch on to.
Rodney Olsen:
It must have been quite incredible to be changing your complete mindset from that knowledge, as you say, from very young that this is what you could expect from life to suddenly have that completely turned around in your mind.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
It is very much a, a change in mindset around me. I think you put it beautifully there. I have the privilege of working to support people back in my community now and I always, with my personal experience and the little experience I've had of being involved in development work, I think the biggest challenge is the change of mindset in a change of mindset from, I can do nothing to help myself to knowing I have the potential, the skills that God has given me to change my circumstances. I just need the right opportunity and I need to give it my all and I can change it. So it overcoming poverty. The first step is a change of mindset and the worst thing that poverty does, as I said, it doesn't let you, it makes you believe that there's nothing good. That can come off your life.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
You don't have any skills. There's nothing you can do in your power to change the circumstances. So we have to, as a family, believe that change was possible. And I truly believe that in any circumstances now change is always possible. No matter how dark it looks, how difficult it looks, there is always hope for change. And also as a family, we believe that it's not just on our own strength. We are working. We have got people who love us well-wishers but also God works with us, you know? And and he works with us through difficult circumstances. So yeah, the first big mind shift change that we have to go through was that believe in ourselves, that change is possible and that we can come out of our current circumstances, that we can overcome poverty. And I believe know that's the biggest thing we need in our world is that believe that poverty is injustice and change is possible. We can overcome it and we must overcome it.
Rodney Olsen:
Most of the time in the developed world, we think of poverty as a lack of stuff is a lack of, of housing, of education, of, of all sorts of things that you've mentioned there. But you're describing something that goes way deeper than that. Do you think that's very difficult for a lot of people in, in the Western world to understand?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
I guess Rodney I've been have had some experience of the western world. And I feel like there's poverty in the western world as well. Exactly what you pointed out, not just physical poverty, but there's a poverty of the spirit and your soul. And I'll try to explain what I mean by that. You know, obviously we had less food to eat. We didn't always have new clothes to wear, you know, I grew up in a house that is smaller than my kitchen, now, kitchen I have in my flat in England. That's where I live now. It's bigger than the house I grew up in now with my mom, dad, my sister, and all. So yes, there is lack of material things that you need for everyday life. But the bigger poverty is of the spirit. It's of, you know, your emotion, that there is no hope that there is no change possible that you are trapped in this environment.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
And you see that sometimes even people with material, stuff, that there is a lack of joy in their life because it's some way or the other they're caught up in the cycle of, I don't see hope in my life. I don't see purpose. I don't know my purpose in my creator. If you know what I'm trying to say, that the biggest thing that we need to be empowered of is or rescued from is this property of the spirit. And that is the big thing that keeps you trapped in there. No matter how much material support you can have or give it won't make a difference. Educate. I want to say education. Wasn't what changed our life and food provision wasn't what changed our lives. Hospital care or medical support wasn't what changed our life. It helped us to survive better or change our life.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Is that the belief that was given into us, that there's a God who loves us and trust God to be with us both through our difficult times and through good times. And that God has given us the skills and potentials to make a difference in our life, in other people's lives. That was the game changer. You know, once people who live in material poverty once they then have that belief, things change for them. People who live in lots of material wealth, but there's a deep sense of spiritual poverty. Once you have that belief, things change for you. It's very much a spiritual battle, an emotional battle, rather than just a lack of physical things or material things in your life. I remember having some of the most happiest days of my life when we didn't have much when we would have one time chicken curry cooked by my mom because it was my sister's birthday or my birthday.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
And we would just celebrate with having some meat, no cakes, no buntings no parties or anything, but was a very joyful occasion because we shared what we had little with with the family. Some of my fondest memories was when my dad would come home and they would have had work and we would cook dinner. And then he would talk about his day. And he would ask me about my school day. And then we'll sit and chat as a family and eat together. We didn't have a lot to eat. We didn't have three course meal or anything. We would eat some Dahl and rice dahl is lentils, but then we'll have great time together as a family. And those are some of my happiest days of my life. So it's, it's not material that brings joy in your life. It's a family time to either relationship, positive relationship and, and hope and purpose that you have in your life. A God given hope and purpose. I don't know if that makes sense.
Rodney Olsen:
It certainly does. And you talking there about a change in mindset of the things that are important, but also that depth of faith that gives you that hope for the future, no matter what may come. And I'm wondering what part that faith continue to play, because I know that even though you are now on a very different road, you were getting education, you had food security and all those things. Life didn't always go according to plan. And there were still some difficulties along the way. You,
Jane’alam Sheikh:
No matter where you live, whether you live in Australia or you live in the slumps in India, I, life is never a linear path. Is it there's always ups and downs and that's life. I remember when I was in high school, my dad got a malaria and it got really bad, very quickly. He eventually died because of that. He called that multiple organ failure and I had to make a decision. I was the only, yeah, I was the eldest child in the family. I was also the only male child in the family. My mum has never had much experience outside the community and where we lived. So I had to make a decision whether I leave school and start working to support my family in the absence of my dad. And if, if I had done that I would not be where I am today, but there was people around us who encouraged me to continue to study and put our faith in God that he will provide.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
And he did, he did, my mom got a job and she excelled and she's such a talented, gifted woman. If my mom had good opportunity at school and of going to school and college and stuff, she would have, I dunno, I've been a very powerful business woman or something. There was a difficult times. My losing, my dad was one of them and we have to continue to fight and continue to believe that a good things will come out of some difficult situation. And I would love for my dad to be around today, but I know his passing away, give me a resilience and a tenacity in life to do things that he hoped and wished for us and make that a reality. And that helped me to go through some of the other difficult times. I remember when I finished high school and it was about to go to university.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
I was so scared. No one in my family has ever been to school, let alone university. It was a terrifying prospect, but I, to courage in the fact that, you know, my dad believed in us and my dad believed in me, and there are people who believed in me and it gave me a lot of impetus to keep trying. And if I have a difficult day, I wake up the next morning and I'll keep trying again. So yeah, life hasn't been, you know, all upward from then there was ups and downs, but what helps me personally I believe in Jesus, I, I believe God loves us all irespective of where we come from here. This unconditional love for us. He has got a great purpose for us. And when we work with him, you know, there is amazing things that he can do in us and through us. And that belief really took me through and he continues to take me through all my ups and downs in life
Rodney Olsen:
You touched a couple of times there on potential and perhaps untapped potential. You said that if you had left school to care for the family, then you wouldn't be where you are today. You mentioned how your mom got a job and that if she had gotten an education early on, it would have given her a very different life. I'm wondering about so many people, millions of people over the years who have lived in poverty, that there remains that untapped potential. Is that something that you're seeking to draw out of people in, in what you're doing currently?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Absolutely. That's kind of become the vision for my life. You see we and this is a bit of a generalization, but there is this idea that people in poverty, they need to be given everything in their life. And and we do it out of goodwill, out of care and concern. We're always trying to support them, provide them with the need, but don't, we always overlook the amazing potential in the people. We see poverty as an issue as statistice, as numbers, as a resource draining problem. And but it's not, you see people living in poverty is the solution to overcoming poverty. I'll give you an example. You know, when Compassion came in and worked in our community, 15 years on the community is completely transformed. There's hardly many families living there anymore cause they empower the children there.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Then there are teachers, there are businessmen, there are local leaders that have come out from that community and, and they're not just helping their family, family, they're helping other people in poverty. So, so there's two things. One, you have to appreciate the tremendous amount of potential in the people living in poverty and true development will happen when you not just give stuff into the problem, but when you do things that truly empowers the individual to realize their potential. And for me, that's what I'm passionate about. And you touched on it a little bit in the beginning. The charity I started with my friends, our focus is how can we empower a person living in poverty to a belief that change is possible in their life. Secondly, believe that God has already given them all the skills they need. They just need the right opportunities and you combine them to potential and opportunity. Then the sky is the limit.
Rodney Olsen:
And you mentioned about how Compassion had helped you as a child, but you're dealing with people of a different age. So you're dealing with people perhaps in the teenage years. Is that correct?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Correct. Yeah. Well, how pursuit really started was just to give you a little bit more background. When I finished university in Calcutta I studied business there and I was always keen on, I've been sort of a person who can't look at an issue and not get involved. And sometimes I get into trouble because of that, get myself into a sticky situation. And, but I guess that's how God made me. But the other thing is, for me, it's not just the immediate fix. I'm always looking for how you change the game for longterm, you know, more sustainable changes. And that was kind of what led to pursue today. And what happened was I finished my education in India. I was doing some work with the local organization, doing some microfinance work in some red light communities, you know, helping women there to set up businesses, to make a living for the family so they can come out of prostitution and provide the children for the children and for the family.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
And once I was doing that, I got an opportunity from Manchester University to do a master's program, which brought me to England. When I first arrived in England, Rodney, I was so confused. It was such a culture shock. Calcutta is like average, mid 30 degrees Celsius throughout the year. I arrived in England and it was like 15 degrees people walking around shirtless because it was summer and I was in three layers, so complete culture shock. And so I went there at uni, but I would go back home to visit. And one of the things that really bothered me was I was also quite involved in some of the children's home or orphanages in my community where in my area so there was some local organization that rescued children off the streets who have no family and we'll keep them in those homes.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
And growing up, I would go around, hang out with them and play with them. And they were very close friends. So when I went back, I tried to catch up with them. And what I saw was that they have to come out of the homes when they were 18 by law, they can't stay there anymore. And then they were out on this open world and which was scary and they didn't know how to navigate it. And more often than not, they would end up back into the environment where they were rescued the first place as it started off. As I know these guys, they're my friends. We grew up together. I've got such a different life. They're back into where they were rescued 20 years or 18 years ago or something. And that really bothered me. So it started off, how do we help those young people, what it has become now, what pursuit does is it primarily works with 18 plus young adults who have been raised in institutions.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
And we work through one to one mentorship program and providing them life skills, how to navigate life outside in the world, giving them employability skills. So we help them get a vocational training. Some of them would have had school level education and it would be very academics. It would help them to go to university. We get them into part time jobs to learn on the job skills and really want to one mentorship to support them emotionally, to learn how to navigate life in the outside world. The goal is to kind of provide them that family style support that you would get when you first go off to uni and for them to just learn to live outside an institution, but also gain the skills to sustain themselves outside an institution. So I, I think last, last year we helped at 16 young people go through training skills, training, life skills training, and one to one mentorship. And the goal is in two to three years time, they'll be able to live independently away from poverty and that vicious cycle would be broken for good.
Rodney Olsen:
Does it amaze you when you look back at that young boy growing up in the slum and not knowing any different to, to becoming that five year old who is sponsored and now being able to make a difference for others. Do you sometimes sit back and just amaze yourself with how far you've come?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Yes and no. I feel like I've got a long way to go. You say how far I've come. That's good. Interesting. I do have to pinch myself to think where God has brought me so far. You know, my my mom, I'm able to support my mum to live in a place that she grew up sharing a toilet with the rest of the community. Now she has got a whole toilet herself. So in this little thing, she's got a safe place to live in. You know, my sister has been through university. I only supported her to go through school and then she supported herself through university. She's got a job now, full time job and amazing, amazing young woman now. So God has done amazing things in our life. And I'm married to an amazing girl. Naomi who's as passionate about Pursuit as I am.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
We started it together and we met in India as she came on a trip to, to work with the children and the children. So I'm actually where I used to go spend some time. And then I never knew that our paths will cross again in England. It's a long story short. Yeah. I have to pinch myself sometimes and and tell myself how privileged my life is now and how far God has brought me. But also there's an sense of responsibility now for whom much has been given, I think much should be expected. So I believe I've got a responsibility to multiply all that I have been given in my life. There are millions of children in India, living in extreme poverty in conditions, worse than me. I at least had a family and a roof over my head. There are children who literally live on the streets.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
In the rainy season, they'll be out shivering in the cold and there are millions of them, but then I had all these opportunities. So I always carry this sense of responsibility that I need to multiply what I have. I need to make a difference in someone else's life. And I believe, you know, anyone living in an environment that you believe you've got, you've got lots of blessing in your life. Never feel guilty. You didn't choose to be born in Australia, Rodney, and people in England or somewhere else, didn't choose to be born here. But then we've got all the resources and opportunities we have in our life, which means we should be responsible with it. So I feel like I've got a long way to go. You know I'm passionate about making a difference in the face of poverty, but I'm more passionate about how we help the people living in poverty to make a transformational change, not just in their life, but in their community.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
So how do you tap the potential that is in people whose lives are limited? Because of the circumstances, there are about 380 million children in the world in extreme poverty. So there's a long way to go, but together we can make a difference. I am to do what I can, even if it's changing more life, I'll do that and keep trying that for the rest of my life. But yeah, I do have to sometimes pinch myself and just think, you know, I live in a flat where I've got a bedroom and a guest bedroom and a kitchen that is bigger than my house that I grew up in.
Rodney Olsen:
You talk about those very changed circumstances in which you now live, and it's wonderful that your standard of living has risen and you're working to see the same for many others. But as you mentioned, India is a country of extremes where there are those in extreme poverty, but also those who are extremely wealthy and moving to the west, you've, you've also seen sometimes that extreme opulence does that sometimes concern you that some people simply are seeking after wealth.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
There's two things that bothers me. One that we sometimes get so sucked up in pursuit of wealth, that we define success in life and value in life, in how much wealth we have accumulated that we forget to enjoy the gift that is life it gift that is there to make a difference, not just in our life, but in others life. We miss that because if somehow it's become how much wealth you've accumulated as how successful you have been in life. Whereas I actually feel is completely the opposite. It's a trap that really saddens me. And I see a lot of that in the Western countries, not everyone, but I see a lot of that. There's a great sense of emptiness and a lack of vision and purpose in life that is just in pursuit of material wealth. But also also saddens me that there's such a lack of awareness, awareness of how life is for a huge chunk of the world of people living in extreme poverty.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
I've seen people truly caring and wanting to make the difference, but I also have seen so many people just not aware and not appreciating what we have and also not aware how people live. And I think the big, one of the big thing that I want to do in life is just create awareness, create awareness that guys, you know, you'd go on one less holiday in life is that's not the worst thing. You know, we're, we are living through a pandemic and it is hard. It's incredibly hard. We, our choices have been taken away. You know, we can't go see friends. We can't go see family. We are stuck in our house, but if you truly flip that on its head and think that being able to do that is a privilege in itself because for so many people living in poverty, the council's wise, violet, you know, they can protect themselves from the virus.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
You know, how do you do when you've got 10,000 people in one square kilometer area and that, you know, people living in extreme poverty, this has been their whole life. They never had a choice. They never choose to do what they want to do. You know, the choices have been taken away. So what's happens is two things. One we've got so caught up in the rat race of accumulating wealth that we forget to use the gift that is life for ourselves and for others. But also what saddens me is the lack of awareness that is there. In so many people about a, the privileges we have here, B the, the extreme different life that so many people live around the world. And I believe with the awareness comes change will happen because people deep down care, you know, we are wired and built to care for each other. If we know we will do something about it,
Rodney Olsen:
You mentioned the journey that you've been on by the help of Compassion and the local church and you've mentioned Pursuit International that you have co-founded if people want to get in touch with either Compassion or Pursuit International, we'll put the details on the show notes of this program. So just go to bleedingdaylight.net. But if people are interested in knowing a little bit more about Pursuit International, are there ways that they can help and how can they get in?
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Absolutely. I mean, I'm, I'm passionate about both the organizations, but we are going through some very challenging time at pursuit. You know, our main work is in India. And as you know, India, one of the many countries around the world that is going through this pandemic, and we know people personally cause life has been affected. The livelihoods have gone. They're struggling to keep themselves protected self isolate. So yes, we would love to get in touch with you. We would love to hear from you, tell you more can go visit our website, it's www.pursuitinternational.org. So it's www.pursuitinternational.org and you can find all the information you can support us financially. You can support us prayerfully or in any other way, you can you know, use your network, use the gifts that you have to bring hope in the lives of people we're working with. So yes, we would love to hear from you and any questions you have, there's a contact, email drop a thing we would love to hear from you. You can also follow us on social media. We have a Facebook page, you search Pursuit International or @pursuit, and you'll be able to find that we would love to hear from you and any support, especially during this difficult time, when we are trying to gather resources to best respond to the huge need that we all find ourselves in would be much appreciated.
Rodney Olsen:
It has been a delight to speak to you to hear of your story of the way that you've been able to be released from poverty, but also what you're doing now. And that comes full circle that you were given a hand up and you've taken advantage of that potential that lay within you. And now you're wanting to see that drawn out of others. So we wish you all the best for the future of Pursuit International and what you continue to do in the days to come. But once again, thank you for spending time with us today on Bleeding Daylight.
Jane’alam Sheikh:
Thank you so much Rodney, for having me. It's been a true pleasure and I've loved catching up with you again and just want to thank all our listeners and please now believe that we can all make a difference. Even if it's to one life, you never know what that one life can go on and do for the rest of the people in the world. So yeah, we believe that change is possible that we can overcome poverty.
 

In a world of frantic busyness and increased anxiety, Rob Mason’s book Shame Off You deserves to be on everyone’s bookshelf. As well as telling Rob’s personal story of anxiety and shame, it’s a practical book that will hand every reader the keys to begin a journey towards better mental health.
 
 
Rob Mason – Shame Off You: https://www.robmason.co
Rob Mason Shame Off You Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RobMason.co
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/robmason61/
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
Emily Olsen:
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen:
In a world of frantic busyness and increased anxiety, Rob Mason’s book Shame Off You deserves to be on everyone’s bookshelf. As well as telling Rob’s personal story of anxiety and shame, it’s a practical book that will hand every reader the keys to begin a journey towards better mental health.
 
Details of the book and how to contact Rob are in the show notes of this episode at bleedingdaylight.net
Today we’ll take an honest and open look into Rob’s inner life and the lessons he’s learned along the way. Please feel free to share episodes of Bleeding Daylight and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts.
 
Rob Mason suffered with the shame associated with chronic anxiety and panic attacks for over 10 years but he says that what he once thought would ruin his life, has in fact, enhanced it. As a church pastor and sports chaplain for nearly 30 years, he's had the privilege of walking alongside thousands of people, struggling with their emotional wellbeing. His book Shame Off You is a practical handbook for anyone facing the shame associated with mental health and anxiety issues. Rob, thank you for being part of Bleeding Daylight.
Rob Mason:
Oh, thank you, Rodney. And so good to hear your voice.
Rodney Olsen:
Your book starts with you identifying some of the root causes of shame and anxiety in your life. So where did it begin for you?
Rodney Olsen:
Oh, I could probably go back to about the age of four or five having minor surgery under general anaesthetic and yeah, it was a traumatic experience. It was the days where you just got dropped off. Your parents weren't with you and I got dropped off. I went to a bed and then I was asked, where do you want your injection, your arm or your bottom? And I just screamed and freaked out. So what happened, the nurse had to get a doctor to pin me down while they gave me an injection in the bottom and I think that was my first experience of fear, but probably even at a young age, feeling humiliated or I made a fool of myself and then where was mom and dad? And so that was also that sense of abandonment. And that was probably the beginning where I realized that there was a shyness and probably always a sense of feeling timid and fearful. It was probably at a very early age I realized, oh, the world is not a safe place and that's probably where it all began. Almost like a narrative. I began, you know, the story I told myself about myself of, Hey, you, you know, the world is scary and you're on your own.
Rodney Olsen:
And there are several other instances throughout the book that you cite that cause more anxiety. But I'm wondering for some people they're experiencing things that they don't understand. They're experiencing anxiety and panic attacks, and yet they can't bring it back to anything in particular. Does our healing of anxiety have to be tied back to remembering what it was that caused it?
Rodney Olsen:
Not necessarily. I think the value of counselling is you take the time to try and track back. When did you start experiencing, you know, the feelings of depression, anxiety, overwhelm? But I think if you can't find, go right back to your childhood and discover it, I think it's still trying to discover what were those from your perspective, what were those trigger points? And even if they are only recent, there's still that sense of, okay, well I'm human. I can relate to thousands and thousands of other people I'm not alone. And then it's going on. Well, what do I do with it? So once you've got a basic of what anxiety depression is, then there's a sense of, okay, well I've got a sickness. I haven't made it up. It's not simply genetic. It's real, but overall it's manageable. And it's just having the, the courage of, Hey, I'm going to go on a journey. I don't want to, I don't want this to dictate my life any longer, knowing that it won't be an overnight success. It will be depending on the person and the issues, you know, could be months for myself. It was years. Cause I think it was so, so much part of my narrative from such a young age,
Rodney Olsen:
There was that instance way back that you've just told us about as a young boy and having to go to hospital and the shame that's associated with that, and I think you play that forward into where you were later and I guess you carry that for the whole of your life until it started demonstrating in other ways. Tell us when you first realized that this was going to cause you real problems.
Rob Mason:
Yeah. That's a good way of putting it. So in the book I talk about a few, I call them defining moments of dysfunction and a lot of it had to do with my relationship with my father who also had mental health issues. And he was a pastor like myself. And so I think I, without knowing, I probably absorbed some of his shame that he had to get out of ministry early and he was unemployed for such a long time because of depression. And so I think I took that on to myself, but yeah, I'd say decades and decades, I lived with shame. I had issues like insomnia and chronic shyness, but it was in 2007 that everything hit the fan. And I was with my wife, a pastor friend, and a couple from the church who were recently appointed as associate pastor. So we're in a local place, we're in a restaurant in Wembley for those who are in Perth, you know, Wembley.
Rob Mason:
And we looked at the menu and in, it felt like a millisecond, everything changed. My breathing changed. My heart was pounding. It was almost like I was going into shock and I didn't know what was going on. There was a combination of, am I having a heart attack, but I don't. It was almost like I've just got to get out. And so in front of my wife and these people who are very close to me, I just ran out of the restaurant and went into my car, crying uncontrollably, not even concerned, what sort of scene I created because by nature I'm, I, I'm probably a fairly private person. I don't want to make a scene, but I just had to run and escape the restaurant. It was almost like, even though it sounds crazy now there was a threat, but I didn't know what it was.
Rob Mason:
And so I had to get out and I'm in my car and this pastor praying came in, said, what is going on? And the fearful thing is, you don't know what's going on. It's like, my body is in overdrive. I feel there's this there's this threat. Now I know now it was my first full blown panic attack. My body was just absolutely saturated with adrenaline cortisol. So it's these hormones that are often released during times of either activity like sport, you know, thrill seeking or when you, your brain centres, there's the threats. And for, for some reason in this public place, I've felt threatened. But I think it was just years and years and years of living with shame and feeling like I'm not good enough, which is really the essence of shame. It's that tormenting and menacing feeling of inferiority. And I think then in 2007, it's like almost for the first time, it manifested itself in a physiological way where it impacted my breathing.
Rodney Olsen:
It was uncontrollable. And you know, I had my first full blown panic attack in a public place, which makes it a little bit more complex because some people have their first panic attack in their sleep or at home. And it's still terrifying because you don't know what's going on, but when it's in a public place, what happens you, then you're almost panic, panic. You, you fear going into a similar situation. So it happened in a restaurant a shopping centre or, you know, just walking down the street, well, then you naturally want to protect yourself. You don't want to be in that situation again. So that's where you need help. And I needed help. I couldn't deal with this on my own.
Rodney Olsen:
On the surface things were very different. You were quite successful as a pastor. Maybe you can paint us a picture of what life on the outside for you at that stage,
Rob Mason:
Ah, very discerning. And it's often the way isn't it. I always had that analogy of a dark. You know, you see it gliding on the water. It looks so effortless and almost majestic can get underneath the little legs paddling like crazy. And yet for our world, we had a, a church that was growing. It was innovative. We had you know, a few hundred people. We had multiple staff. We also had a indoor play centre for parents and children. And that was a very innovative thing, been going for a few years. And we had every week hundreds and hundreds of people coming into our place centre, we were doing a lot of things in the community, feeding the poor and the need needing. So from the outside, yes, we're, you know, we've got a few hundred people, multiple staff, a, a million dollar, not for profit business.
Rob Mason:
People are going overseas for short term mission trips. And yeah, you know, we had an amazing facility credibility. And to be honest, when I, my wife and I started the church, I never in my wildest dream would have ever thought we would be where we were. It was like, this is just a wild ride. And I, to a point that I was enjoying the journey, but the more it grew, the more complex it became. And to be honest, the more, yeah, my confidence was challenged. I began to, as the church was growing, becoming more complex and financially multiple staff, staffing issues, pastoral issues legal issues. I then started again that sense of overwhelm and spinning plates. And I think, you know, for, for people on the outside yet, they each way growing innovative dynamic. But my private world was, I'd say slowly imploding.
Rodney Olsen:
You mentioned that issue of credibility. You had credibility in the community and I imagine that that fed into your anxiety because there was this fear. If anyone found out this could all come crashing down in a moment.
Rob Mason:
Totally, and it's always hard in church life to define success or what is a healthy church, because in many ways it's a very subjective thing. And it depends who you talk to. And I don't think in a bigger is necessarily better. I think it was Rick Warren that said, you know, better is better, whether you're a small church, medium sized or large, but once we became a larger church and well known in the community, I guess on the, you know, the flesh part of my being a pastor, you know, I'm human, you know, there's ego, but then there's a sense of there's more, more to lose and, you know, disappointing people. And the last thing I wanted to do was to let people down to let my guard down, but especially in the context of being with a couple, we just appointed as associate pastors in front of my wife and in front of this pastor, there was just this overwhelming sense of humiliation.
Rob Mason:
It was almost like I'm busted. This is the real Rob Mason coming to the surface. All of my insecurities, my emotional damage. It was almost like, okay, I'm exposed like Adam and Eve. And probably for a long time, I tried to cover all of that insecurity. And I think a lot of leaders, pastors can relate to this. You know, you just try and be busy and you try and do things that bless people. But at the same time, you're also trying to protect yourself. I don't want people to really know who I am and by, you know, that dark night of the soul, it's actually more than a dark night it's it's decades, even though it was ugly and messy and confusing, it was a redemptive thing. It was almost like, well, for decades, I've been wearing this pain and all this confusion and turmoil, it was like, God graciously said, Rob, it's time.
Rob Mason:
It's time not to stop being a pastor. In fact, it's time to go deeper as a pastor and to really look at your soul and to have someone skilful to walk alongside you, including my church board. I shared with my board what had happened and probably a few weeks later, I shared with the church because in a way, if we're community, well, I can't give this persona that Hey, on this amazing dynamic leader and it's all going well, we're going from strength to strength. It's like, Hey guys, I'm on one level. Our church will be business as usual, but for my personal world, it's not business as usual. I'm going to do a pretty long journey of getting counselling and relearning how to, to think and deal with how to change my physiology. That, that sense of panic through a whole lot of different exercises.
Rob Mason:
And yeah, you know, probably like a lot of people, you hope it's one or two sessions, but it ended up being probably about a 12, 18 month journey of counselling doing a whole lot of exercises, such as breathing and meditation, and really taking a closer look or almost taking the infantry of my thinking and beginning to catch my thoughts and realizing that, wow, I didn't realize that for decades. My thinking has been negative, toxic, catastrophic, and words do damage. Maybe not immediately, but if you've got this self-talk, that is so toxic, at some point, it's going to affect your body to the point your body's going to cry and say, Hey, I can't keep doing this. I can't keep absorbing this toxic message of living on high alert and so that's, that's the beauty of when it came to the surface, it was time to do an inner work, a deep work.
Rob Mason:
And I can now look back on it and it's, it was a saving grace. You know, it was a time where God intervened and it was an act of mercy. It wasn't punishment. And even though it felt like exposure, it was a positive thing, not a negative thing. It's like, okay, it's out in the open now I've got nothing more to hide because shame is hiding. Well, if you take the hiding away, you tell people what's going on in your, in a world. Well, in a sense, the shame goes, it's like, okay, I'm ready to do this. And the, the ironic thing when I shared with the church, the feedback was I became a lot more relatable in some ways, a lot more approachable. And those struggling with mental health on the side said, Oh, you, you may not be aware, but I also struggled with depression, panic attacks.
Rob Mason:
And to know that our pastor is struggling well, it's okay. You've almost taken that sense of shame away from me cause you've gone public about it and so once you go public about our brokenness and shame is all about hiding and that sense of inferiority almost disarms shame, oftentimes in Christian circles, there's this belief that we should be living in victory, that if we are following Christ, that everything should be okay. So did you find that there were some people that brought that thinking to the table and said, well, you obviously are not walking close enough with God. And that's the answer. Yeah, there's a little bit, thankfully, not a lot, but there was a few well, meaning people who said Robert, it says in the Bible, you know, don't be anxious. So, you know, there you go. Just don't and probably a little bit, not necessarily from friends, but from certain circles you know, blogs or books that I read that are very much that victorious living, which look I believe in victorious living, but that doesn't necessarily mean from strength to strength.
Rob Mason:
Sometimes that includes working through our humanity, our brokenness, you know, those sort of thoughts of, Oh, well you need to pray longer or pray hard, or have you done a seven day fast or maybe you should do this. And there was a little bit of that, which is coming from people that are well meaning. But to be honest, there are probably times early in ministry. I didn't understand mental health either. And so I probably, you know, did the prayer and Hey, you read these verses every day, claim this. And I think for a lot of us, it then adds to the shame or at least it makes shame and mental health a little bit more complicated in the Christian world that, yeah, there's this sense of, I should be stronger as a pastor. I should be stronger. And I think the more that people, and it's not just pastors, but the more that people come out in the open, I think we've done that quite well in our nation.
Rob Mason:
There's a lot more people, media entertainment, politics, sports, and it just ordinary people like myself have come out in the open and it does help. It's like, Oh, and, and often that responsible, Oh, I never thought they would get us as if there's some profile of the typical person who has anxiety or depression, but there is no typical profile. It could be any person, any personality. I think for those of us like myself, who probably are more of the introverted shy have been you know, some, my upbringing issues, maybe I'm a little bit more vulnerable, but some of the most what we would call the most dynamic strongest leaders we've ever seen the most successful people we've ever seen when they come out the open it. So it almost gives permission for all of us to go, Hey, it's okay. You know that saying it's okay not to be okay.
Rob Mason:
I think we've gone through an era where was all about success and looking impressive. And maybe in the early days of social media, it was all about, well, it was probably a little bit plastic. It was all about giving this impression of we were going from one breakthrough to the next. And the reality is, and I've heard a number of different people, different leaders share how it's not necessarily that there can be breakthrough success followed by brokenness, followed by the dark Knight or the soul follow by another breakthrough. And it's just that there is no formula. There is no typical pattern. It's messy. And I think it's time as Christians, we accept messy spirituality. It's not, you know, all of the spiritual disciplines, prayer, fasting, meditation, church attendance, giving money to the church, the poor. And then therefore it's almost like, well, we'll live the good life.
Rob Mason:
It's it's messy. Life is messy. It's actually in the journey and the turmoil and the good days and the bad days. And sometimes just showing up and maybe getting counselling and maybe doing different meditation exercises. And, you know, for myself, we've all heard that spiritual disciplines. There was still a time I was struggling with sleep and physiology. And so medication also played a part. It wasn't the answer. You still had to do the hard work, but the medication actually probably just took the edge off and enabled me to be in a better place to receive counselling and to do some of that confronting inner work,
Rodney Olsen:
I was going to touch on those various areas. There is, of course, as you mentioned, during the anxiety attacks, your, your body is rushed with chemicals. And so there's definitely something happening physiologically, but you're also harking back to some of those earlier experiences that are causing that. And then there's the spiritual side. And what I do like about the book is that you're looking at them all because we've all experienced those books that as we've discussed, just say pray more or be more spiritual it's okay. There are those people who would say it's all about the chemicals. So just take medication there's some that would just say, it's all about the counselling of what you experienced at, at an earlier date. And so you've actually brought them all together in the book
Rob Mason:
And it probably was intentional in the sense of that's been my experience. So I wasn't so much strategic or, Oh, here's, here's a different sled. It has been my experience. And you know, it's very hard when people say, what were the two key areas? Obviously I've got to include, you know, the personal side of prayer and meditation, but then there was community in my family. You've got to do it with your family. If you're close friends, but then exercise plays a part and the counselling, it may not be for everyone. But I realized that this was so, Oh, it was almost at a point of derailing me. I knew it was beyond more than just a chat with a pastor friend or someone said, look, I'll pray for you. I realized I needed professional help. I needed insight into, you know, what are the triggers, but what is the way forward?
Rob Mason:
And I couldn't do that on my own. I was very fortunate in our church. One of our leaders is a mental health nurse and I've told her my symptoms. And she said, Oh, that was a panic attack of which I'd I'd heard of, but didn't, and didn't really understand what it was. So she told me briefly and she said, look, one of the best people in Perth, I'll contact her and you'll have an appointment in two days, which is normally you've got to wait months. And she said, Oh, by the way, this person isn't a Christian. And so I had to go, Oh, okay. So where are they coming from? And this person, their specialty or their premise is cognitive behavioural therapy. So in other words, their premise is when they look at an issue like a trauma or anxiety, they look at your thinking that they're thinking triggers your behaviour.
Rob Mason:
And then, you know, the therapy of trying to learn how to rethink and challenge your thinking and change your thinking enough to time it changes your behaviour, your physiology. And I realized, well, I want the very best available to help me navigate through this. And it was probably only two times where she asked me to do an exercise and I set up, Oh, actually I probably can't do that. It's a little bit of a conflict with my spiritual beliefs around a couple of minor times. But apart from that, at the end of the day, truth is truth. I might be a little controversial. Almost say it was all spiritual, even learning to sleep. Sleep is spiritual breathing, learning how to breathe, that spiritual going for walks along the beach, that's spiritual and even getting counselling, even though the person was not a Christian, it was spiritual because God is still giving me insight. Have you got time for a funny story while I was getting counselling?
Rodney Olsen:
Absolutely.
Rob Mason:
So here, we've got this person, who's probably got a bit of Eastern philosophy and she's, you know, doing some exercise and went, Whoa, stop. And she went, what I said, I've just had this revelation. She said, what? I said, I've just got this image of all these dominoes, the standing upright. And I believe God's saying those dominoes represent all of these false thoughts I've had about myself and my father. And that the big picture was I've never been fathered because of my father with his illness. Wasn't able to really father me well or in the way that I needed. And then I had this revelation. I told this lady said, in a moment, God gave me this revelation. Rob, you've always been fathered. And the moment I had that revelation all the dominoes started falling, and I said to her, I could hear them just go. So this revelation I said to her, Oh, it's a revelation. God's always love me. God has actually fathered me even when my earthly father couldn't. And it was just like, that was my payday. That was probably the biggest revelation. And it came from God in the midst of a counselling session with a lady who's probably got more of an Eastern philosophy. So she accepted it. She, I think she went, hi, I'm not going to argue with it. That's actually a really great revelation. You've always been fathered. So good on you.
Rodney Olsen:
Now, I'm interested in you speaking about your father because you've touched on the relationship there for some time. And in the book you outline the fact that you knew something was not quite right there but you didn't have the tools to know what it was, and so you inferred something very different.
Rob Mason:
Well, that's right. And I think particularly when you're very young you just, you know, obviously you probably think you've got the best parents in the world is safe and we're then when something happens, you know, whether there's a friction or there's an argument. And obviously the kids who go through, you know, seeing their parents divorce, it is a very traumatic thing. But with dad who was very passive, he wasn't around a lot. He wasn't affectionate, he wasn't nurturing. And so my conclusion as a kid, because there were, you know, I had traumatic experiences and debt in, see me afterwards, say, Hey, how you going? I'm sorry. You went through that. Let's talk because if his silence, I then interpreted as, Oh, he must be silent because he's really embarrassed about me. He's actually ashamed of me. He's I'm not living up to what a son should be.
Rob Mason:
So I just purely took it as it's not dad's issue. It's my issue. And I think it was Brene Brown talked about as parents. We have to be very careful when there's a trauma and we don't talk to about kids. You know, there's a silence because what happens when there's silence, you make up your own narrative, you'd join the dots. And there may be dots that were never meant to be joined. So for a long time, I just assumed dad didn't like my company didn't like me. And so I would try really hard to be a, you know, a good student or good at sport. But then when I didn't do well at school was sport. It it's just all this sense of, Oh, he's just embarrassed on I'm a disappointment. And it wasn't until probably my mother felt I was able to receive some background.
Rob Mason:
When she said, look, you were born during his last year of Bible college. I said, Oh, that probably wasn't too good. So I was born in October. He would have had his final exams in November. And I apparently wasn't a good baby. I had colleagues. So would have been difficult for dad. And then in his first year or two of ministry, he had a breakdown. And so as a little kid, you know, I didn't know what was going on, but obviously that was unemployed and unemployable on medication for depression. And so mum began to talk about, look, the reason why your father isn't around or is, gets very angry or he's just not emotionally available. It's because of he's got a sickness and then it was, Oh, okay. That it gave context. So it wasn't that I was a disappointment and it wasn't that. Yeah, I was a failure.
Rob Mason:
It was, wow. Dad had the sickness and that impacted his capacity to be a father for me, when you slow down and you go back and you feel the emotions and you might do an exercise where, you know, it was like three chairs, the counsellors in one arm in the other. And then she said, okay, just imagine your dad is here and your 10 years old. And you've had that traumatic experience in the hospital. And a couple of the other things, what would be the questions you would want to ask dad? What would you want to say to him? What would you want him to say to you? And in a very safe place with a skilled person, you, you go to a place you never thought possible where you actually remembered the emotions and you remember your thoughts. Oh, and yeah, it was very emotional.
Rob Mason:
I remember one session just crying uncontrollably yet. It was very therapeutic. And then I go home and Karen said, how's your, you know, session number seven or eight. And I just burst into tears because wow. I had to get messy. I had to get worse before it got better and I'll have to readdress all of those emotions and the story I told myself for all those decades. So yeah, throughout the book, there's definitely a narrative about myself, my father, and I won't give much away cause yeah, it's it finishes in quite a beautiful way. Near the end of the book,
Rodney Olsen:
You spoke about this narrative, that life goes from strength to strength and we've called that out for being false. But we could also give this narrative that your learnings and your recovery just went from strength to strength, but that's not always the case either. Is it?
Rob Mason:
No, I guess I always thought, and I think a lot of us think linear, you know, you're step one, step two. And then in a year you'll be in this place. And then in two years, all of that stuff is behind you. And my journey was all up and down and, and that's where again, I had to relook at my language. There were times that I had, I guess I called them a setback. And so, you know, I might've gone well for a few months, no panic attacks. It's all behind me. And then out of nowhere, another panic attack and in my faulty thinking, Oh, I'm back to where I was. It was Whoa. No, that's, that's not true. It's just a bit of a bump in the, that's all it is. I don't think for a lot of people, whether it's, you know, with a physical injury or an emotional injury, we're going to go through times where there's quick progress or someone on a, going on a diet.
Rob Mason:
You hear of people the first couple of weeks where the weight is dropping off. And then they, there's a bit of emotional eating, comfort eating and they put the pounds on again and then up and down it's I think for most of us that's life and we should probably have a more realistic expectation that there will be a few bumps along the way. But then when you share that with people again, that's relatable, you didn't just lose the weight and have kept it off perfectly. Or you didn't just deal with you know, a breakup with a girlfriend boyfriend, or you didn't just work through an emotional issue. And now it's all perfect. It's was still going to be messy. And I still have, I guess if I'm honest, I still feel vulnerable to mental health issues. But on my K with that, it doesn't mean I'm fearful.
Rob Mason:
It doesn't mean that I'm waiting for another breakdown or anything like that. I just feel, I think I'm just a person that's always going to be vulnerable. I've just got to be vigilant on my guard and just, I've got certain daily routines and rhythms that just keep me in check. And from time to time, I might tell someone that, Oh yeah, not having a good day or, or I could feel my physiology change. It wasn't a panic attack, but I thought a bit of mild panic come upon me. And it's good. I've got tools in the toolbox now, you know, with breathing meditation or I know what to do. I don't panic about panic anymore. It's just, it's just part of who I am. And that's okay.
Rodney Olsen:
I imagine that there are people listening who say I have anxiety issues or I have shame issues, but they're not as big as what Rob is describing. Or on the other hand, people saying, you know what things were a whole lot worse that I went through. And yet I find that the book actually helps people at any space in that spectrum. You would have had feedback from people that have read the book from all over the place. What are some of the responses that you're getting from people?
Rob Mason:
Oh, that's it. And there has been a lot of response, which is great. And I also loved the diversity of people. It's not just one demographic. It's all sorts of people, including people that don't have a faith. I've had a few people that aren't Christians who read the book and they didn't feel it was preachy. It was just very transparent and it was still relatable and I'm hoping for them, but it, it showed a perhaps a different side of Christian spirituality that they probably haven't seen before. But yeah, I had people saying, yeah, the practical exercises, cause in the book, it's not just, you know, information and my narrative there's at the end of every chapter, there's a time to stop and almost do an inventory, ask some questions, times of meditation, how to do meditation. So people found that really helpful. I had one person that said, you got me in the introduction in the first paragraph.
Rob Mason:
I said, all that was wonderful. Just the first paragraph. It was just oh. I'm in, I can tell this is a book that's going to be relatable. And again, there are no formulas and that can be for someone with very mild mental health challenges or severe. And that's where it's a very subjective thing. I share my story, but it's very hard to say, well, that's say seven out of 10 and someone else's only gets three out of 10. It's, we're all different. Our circumstances are different. So I think for anyone that feels a little bit of overwhelm, they need to not ignore it or deny it, but think, Oh, what's going on and try not do it alone for those where it's severe and it's been chronic, meaning, you know, it's been for years and years again, that's where they relate to my story. It's not, you know, a one month, six months, you know, it's over a decade now and now I'm still saying to people I'm still vulnerable, but I'm, I'm functional.
Rob Mason:
I probably have a greater sense of awareness. And as I said before, there's, it's like, you're carrying this toolbox wherever you go. And I didn't have that in 2007. It was just, Whoa, this is the end of me. Whereas now when things happen and you know, have those days you're not doing so well, it's like, Oh, it's okay, I'll get through this because I've now got a history of resilience, which I probably didn't have before. So you do build a resilience. I think that's what it is to be human. And even to be Crossfield, it's just, yeah, you look at a lot of the people in the Bible and you read biographies, autobiographies, where people are transparent and we're all in the same boat. We've all got our, our dysfunction and that's okay. God is glorified. Yes. When we do well, but God has also glorified. He now suffering in our, in our brokenness.
Rodney Olsen:
You talk about the inferences that we often make. When we see a situation, we don't have all the information around that. We join dots that should never be joined as you say. I imagine that there's possibly people listening who have already inferred what a response would be if they came out and spoke about the things they're dealing with, that they've joined dots that shouldn't be joined and so they're fearful of actually taking action against this anxiety and this shame. What would you say to them?
Rob Mason:
Well, first of all, don't try and not feel those things. I think the fact that you're feeling those things, that's again, it's being human. So don't it's, it's why people saying, you know, don't feel that or don't think that it's like, look you are, if I was to say to your listeners right now, don't think of an elephant with a pink Tutu. They're going to think of it. That's just part of being human. You know, you have that thought. I think you just own it. You own your vulnerability. I think part of why we often need help is you need someone skilful to go back to some of those original, original self-talk, you know, from the age of, you know, very early on in school, you know, you drop the ball and sport and for some people, Hey, it's no big deal for others.
Rob Mason:
You actually spoke a message to yourself. And then you, you probably try to avoid those situations again. So you thought, Oh, I let the team down on the fire. I'm useless. I'm uncoordinated. And so this is where we have to go on the journey of first of all, catching our thoughts, even if it's just for a week, every time you have a thought, write it down every time you think of something, when you're young, you know, what was that thought? What was the statement you're saying about yourself? I'm not as good as my brother or I I'm no good on useless. So you catch the thoughts and then this is where the work comes. You, you challenge them. In other words, are they true? Are they biblical? Where's the evidence that you're useless. Where's the evidence that nothing good ever happens to you. Whereas, so you actually start demanding evidence to see is this statement that I say about myself to myself.
Rob Mason:
Is it true? Or is it just some faulty perspective through whatever issues in life? And so you challenge it, you get really brutal about those statements and then you change them. And it's very hard to all of a sudden stop saying, Oh, I'm no good, nothing good ever happens to me, but you learn to replace it with truth. And that's where some of those statements in the Bible about who we are in Christ. So I can say, Oh, I'm useless, I'm hopeless. And you know, you compare yourself to other people, but Whoa, what about truth? The truth is I'm a new creation. The truth is, you know, I'm filled with the spirit of God. The truth is. And so you, you then have a new self-talk and it's what we call the renewing of your mind. We now have evidence over the last 20 years in neuroscience so that we can actually create new neuro pathways in our brain.
Rob Mason:
So you're actually changing these pathways. It takes several months for you to create these pathways, but you're, you're getting rid of the old messages. You're replacing them with new messages and you consistently do that. And it does take several months. And we're always default to the negative stuff when we're under pressure stress. But that sense of today's a new day. I'm going to think you thoughts and the new thoughts are truth. The truth sets me free, that the truth releases really good hormones, chemicals into my body. That sense of wholeness and wellbeing. I think we're living in a world where there's so much information, especially with social media, we're just inundated with information and probably comparing ourselves to people. And it's so easy to just allow these negative thoughts, infiltrate, and this sense of I don't measure up. I'm not as good as it's social media. It's often a little bit plastic. It's a little bit exaggerated. What, why do I need that? Why do I, why am I comparing myself? And then you realize it's such a futile thing to do because when we compare, we're either going to feel really proud that we're doing better, or we're going to feel humiliated and feel inferior that I don't measure up. So either way, it's not a good place.
Rodney Olsen:
Rob, it's been great talking about some of the things that you've experienced, but also the way that you're continuing to overcome them. And I'm going to put a link in the show notes to today's episode, where people can find your book, but for those listening, where's the best place to find the book and to contact you if they want to be in touch?
Rob Mason:
Yeah, probably the easiest way is my website. And so that's just Rob mason.co. It's a pretty good investment of my journey, which I do believe is relatable. It's a very practical book and it's certainly a book you can give to someone who doesn't have faith in God at all. It's not preachy, but there's certainly a lot of really good biblical content, but in a way that's very relatable.
Rodney Olsen:
Absolutely. It is a good read. And even if you're wanting to understand what someone else is going through, if there are people that you know, who are suffering through shame through anxiety, through depression, and you want a better handle on what they might be facing to help you to be a better aid to them, then this is the book to grab. It's called Shame Off You by Rob Mason, who's our guest on Bleeding Daylight today. Rob, thank you so much for spending time with us today.
Rob Mason:
Oh my privilege, Rodney. Thank you to you for the invitation and for all of your listeners and I love what you're doing with this podcast and I'm sure it's going to impact a lot of people for a long time.
 
Emily Olsen:
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Bradley Hopp is the co-founder of Teshuah Tea Company. He works to see young women and girls rescued from sex trafficking. On today’s episode you’ll hear stories of people who are truly kicking the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
 
 
Teshuah Tea Company: https://deliverancetea.com
Teshuah Tea Company: https://teshuahtea.com
Teshuah Tea Company Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/teshuahteacompany
Liberty Unveiled Podcast: http://teshuahunveiled.com
 
 
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen: 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen:
Today’s episode contains some confronting and disturbing content. It also contains stories of hope and deliverance.
 
My guest works to see young women and girls rescued from sex trafficking.
 
He also produces a video podcast titled Liberty Unveiled. Links to his podcast and the anti-trafficking work are in the show notes of this episode at bleedingdaylight.net
 
Today you’ll hear stories of people who are truly kicking the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
 
On the surface, Teshuah Tea Company is a small business selling quality tea, coffee, and unique gift items, but there's something far more serious behind the scenes. Bradley Hopp is the co-founder of Teshuah Tea Company and he joins me today to talk about the reason behind the business. Brad, thanks for joining me on Bleeding Daylight.
Bradley Hopp:
Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Rodney Olsen:
What is the meaning behind the word Teshuah and how does that fit into what you're doing with a tea company?
Bradley Hopp:
Okay, so that's a great question. Teshuah is the Hebrew word for deliverance. The deliverance is very much what the show is all about because my business partner, Andrew is a missionary and communist Asia behind the bamboo curtain and he and the team rescue underage girls out of sex trafficking over there. So minor, minor girls, and they get the girls out of this horrific situation that they're in and into our rescue and rehab facility, where we meet all of their needs. We take care of their food shelter, clothing. We give them medical care. You know, we give them crisis pregnancy counseling. We teach them to read and write. We teach them to do different work crafts and skills, like making the braclets and the tea and the coasters and so on and so forth. And then what we do is we come alongside and, and that's where I come into play is we actually buy the products from the girls for whatever they're asking on them and then half our profits are going back to the rescue facility. So it's really a double whammy for the, for the rescue house and for the girls, it's really all about deliverance.
Rodney Olsen:
And really what you're doing is your empowering them, because you're not just saying, Hey, I'll give you a handout you're saying, here's an opportunity for you to do something for yourself and it's actually paying off and showing them that there's a very different way.
Bradley Hopp:
And that's, that's the reason, you know, because living here in America, we have such a culture that is so entitled, and I'm a very much a firm believer. I grew up on a dairy farm. I grew up on a small scale farm here in Iowa. So I'm very much of the mindset that you give a man, a fish, you feed him for a day, you teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. So that's really the philosophy behind Teshuah is to economically empower the girls. We, we basically work to give them a work ethic so that they know how to provide for themselves when they leave our rescue facility and they don't have that entitlement mentality. They, they, even though we're, you know, we're providing their needs while they're under our care, they have also learned to contribute to the household. They've learned to contribute to the needs of the household through doing dishes and through doing laundry and, and working in the tea shop and, and so on and so forth. But then they're also making these crafts and these and stuff so that we can buy those from them so that they're seeing that they have skills and abilities that they can take into the marketplace.
Rodney Olsen:
I want to explore a little bit more about what sex trafficking means, because I think it's a phrase that we've heard too often and we become desensitized to it. But before we go there, I would imagine that for many, the idea that this is a sex trafficking, that's happening in a communist Asian country absolutely fits our Western narrative. And we would say, well, certainly that sort of thing doesn't happen here. It doesn't happen in countries like Australia or in the U S but is that the reality?
Bradley Hopp:
No. by, by far, no, the U S is actually the biggest consumer of pornography and U S tourists. And I'm really embarrassed to say this, but U.S. Tourists are some of the biggest consumers of the sex tourism industry throughout the world. And I used to deliver fire trucks, a million dollar, half million dollar fire trucks all over the country here in the U S. And so my world was different than a typical truck driver because I didn't stay in truck parking lots. I would, you know, hotels every night and, and whatever, but still my world crossed enough that you would see truckers against trafficking and you would see different things. And so it's very much a real problem. And I actually, the Asian country in the apartment, my partner works in their technology for running brothels has been imported into the U S through massage parlors, through karaoke clubs through front businesses like that, that provide a cover for, you know, well, it looks like a legitimate business is actually a cover for the brothels.
Rodney Olsen:
So it's actually a lot of the people in Western countries like ours that are actually fueling this kind of industry.
Bradley Hopp:
Right. And partially because of our opulence, as far as our income, you know, we're not a third world country. We have expendable income, you know? And so that makes us purveyors of this kind of, of garbage
Rodney Olsen:
You're talking about young girls and you're talking about minors. What sort of age are we looking at here?
Bradley Hopp:
The youngest girl that my partner and his team have had a hand in rescuing was 11 years old. And she was literally drunk off her behind. Real briefly, the way a rescue mission goes down is they go into the brothel. They have two people inside that are not participating, but acting as patrons. It's a karaoke club. So you can go in and sing and spend the evening singing and stuff and so they go in and spend the evening singing, and then they wait until everybody else gets sauced or drunk. And then they start a ruckus. And then my partner and the team come in and, and cause even more of a ruckus and literally start grabbing, grabbing girls and picking them up and carrying them out of the building. And he picked up this 11 year old and carried her out. Now we always make sure that we at least one of our female staff in the rescue van waiting so that she can explain to the girls what's going on, who we are, why we're there. And then they ask them, do you want to come with us? And a hundred percent of them have said, yes,
Rodney Olsen:
It's a frightening scenario that you're setting out there. How are these girls originally lured into this traffic?
Bradley Hopp:
A lot of times it's either they are one of the girls, her, her parents went on vacation. She was staying with her uncle, her uncle abused, sexually abused during the, he sold their off to his if I remember right, it was his sister and then she pimped her out and then she ended up selling her or she might've sold her directly. I don't remember if she pimped her out and then sold her on or, but anyway, so that was one of the scenarios. A lot of them have aged out of the adoption system or the orphanage system by 14 in this particular country. They, they expect 14 year old people to be able to survive on the streets by themselves at 14 you know, which is being a father of six and having 14 year olds. I that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I mean, quite honestly, a lot of times it's either they were sold by a family member or they were, you know, out on the streets and somebody picked them up and, and offered them something that looked legitimate. And that's the biggest one. A lot of times, they're, they're sold a bill of goods and told, Oh yeah, well, you know, we'll get you into this whatever job. And that's not the case.
Rodney Olsen:
You say, you're providing all that these young girls need to return to society and to help them to heal, how do you help a young girl who's being treated in this way by probably hundreds of men. How do you teach them to trust again?
Bradley Hopp:
And this is where my faith comes into play because we can't on our own. We have we have a book that it was actually written by a I believe the gentleman's from Australia and he's a Christian counselor, but he has written this book and, and that's kind of been the textbook for our house mothers. They get the girls into a safe environment and obviously it takes time, but the girls begin to see the older girls that are there caring for each other and, and helping each other in that stuff. You know, they go through devotions and Bible study and, and eventually we don't force it down their throats, the girls. So I have a choice, you know, I mentioned earlier that we get them crisis pregnancy counseling, and we don't force them to keep their babies, but three out of the four have that came to us, pregnant, have chosen to keep their babies. And so that combination that we have going on, really the girls see what true Christianity is all about. And they, they begin to see that, Hey, these actually care about me in they're endangering their own lives. For me, it opens up that door for conversations and it opens up the door for, for us to be able to, to share the gospel with them, but then also to help them to recover in, in deeper ways. Because for example, let's just give a short story here. One of the girls came to us and she had been pimped out for three years, if I remember, right, she had not slept a solid night's sleep in, in at least three years. Since she came to the rescue house, she had not slept peacefully all night long. She would always wake up a night terrors and, and just horrific dreams, 28 days in, she decided to put her faith in Jesus Christ and she decided to become a Christian and that night she slept peacefully for the first time in over three years. She slept peacefully for nine hours at night, and she's not had any more night terror. She's not had any more nightmares and the awful dreams and stuff and, and it has really helped her to come to the wholeness that she needs, because limited on what we can do. I mean, we're humans, there's spiritual healing that has to happen. And we're, we're only able to give so much healing, but we can offer Christ. And, and that's where the true healing is found.
Rodney Olsen:
You touched on the danger, that's involved for the team that is doing these rescues. What sort of danger have they encountered? And is there an ongoing danger for them day to day?
Bradley Hopp:
Yeah. First off, this particular country is cracking down on, on Christians for one, for two, one of the girls, the girls are free to leave if they want to. And so one of the girls had saved up her money and she thought that her brothel owner was in love with her. So she went back to him because obviously he told her he loved her. I mean, that was always part of the bill of goods. So, she saved her money and she went back to him and she pretty quickly figured out that that was not the case when you beat her up and put her in the hospital for a week. But then when she left the hospital, she went back to one of Andrew's Bible schools, the brothel owner followed her back there. And then he called some of his corrupt police buddies at the police department there in the area and had some of his, his goons come along with him too. And they were going to bust them Well, we don't know who did this, but somebody higher up in the police department knows or must know something and actually called another police department and, and got Andrew arrested for his own protection. And they got him out of there. They took him to the prison in this country is never a good thing, put him in jail for the day. And then that night at midnight, they took him out the back door in a, in an unmarked squad car. And he's thinking, you know, nothing leaves the back door of one of these jails that ends well, especially at midnight. So they took him to a hotel and they put him up for, for 24 hours and and let everything blow over after that. Then they told him, okay, this is what's going on. So it's very real danger.
Rodney Olsen:
And how do you stop something like this, for the team that's on the ground there, and for you who is totally immersed in this world, day-to-day, how do you stop it from breaking you?
Bradley Hopp:
You have to have a sense of humor. So growing up on the dairy farm, you know, my parents always had an expression cause we went through the farm crisis, the early eighties where guys were losing their farms left and right. And my parents always said that you might as welll laugh about it, otherwise you'll cry. That's one of those stupid sayings that really has stuck with me and held true. But more than that, much more than that is, is just simply my faith in Christ and my belief in Christianity and, and what, what God has done for me, it would be very easy to get discouraged when you're, when you're going up against such wicked and such evil, you really have to have that solid foundation. Otherwise it will because you're looking at the dregs of humanity. There's many days that even as a Christian, you'd rather just throat punch somebody and you know, you hear these stories and you're just like, if I could get my hands around their neck and ring it, I would, you know, and I know the Father, God feels that same way too, but I also know the terrific testimonies that happen when brothel owners become Christians, we've had several brothel owners become Christians over the last couple of years and to see the transformation there really at the same time, it gives you hope too, because you see guys that have, that are like in, in, you know, just name some of famous America, mobsters like John Gotti and Al Capone. I mean, some of the most famous mobsters in the world, these guys are Asian tong. And as part of the mafia and part of the tong, they're not guys to be messed with. So as guys that should not be messed with when they come to Christ and they become Christians and they are willing to put their own lives on the line to see these girls rescued and set free. That's where you begin to, to grab a hold of that hope. That really is just such an astounding thing.
Rodney Olsen:
I imagine having some of those former brothel owners on board would give even more insight into ways to rescue the young girls that you're seeking to save and see healing for.
Bradley Hopp:
One of the, the very first guy or the very first brothel under the Andrew led to the Lord was kind of an interesting situation. Andrew had a, an American restaurant in this particular town. He put an ad in the newspaper for, or put an ad out for, for some waitress help for the restaurant and he had a young lady apply on a Wednesday and he said, come back on Saturday and I'll, I'll give you interview at nine o'clock. Nine o'clock came and went and it was noon before she showed up and he was like, I'm not hiring this girl. And he felt like God said, no, I want you to hire her. So he, he did reluctantly, but he did and she brought a friend of hers on and they ended up both becoming Christians and then they both had a heart to see the girls be rescued out of the brothels and to see these brothel owners come to Christ and so they, they started studying and they started taking gifts into the girls and into the brothel owners because in this Asian country relationship is extremely important, Andrew, his wife had actually helped us. The Christian psychologist that I talked about earlier, she had helped him translate his book into this Asian language. So they had a copy of it and they, they gave it to these two girls and they started studying and then they, said to this brothel owner, they said, do you want to meet an American, that speaks your language? And he said, well, heck I've never met an American let alone one, that actually speaks my language. Sure. So Andrew sat down with the guy and they got to talking and, and Andrew shared the gospel and this guy, as I said, he was Tong. I mean, he was mafia. And when he ran into Christ, it was such an encounter that he set all of his girls free, 20 girls free and gave them all severence packages, gave them on bus tickets back to their home villages and then had a fund that he had money, you know, $45,000 or $48,000 that he had made off of the girls set aside in a, in a fund for a matching fund to raise money for the rescue house and stuff. He's actually helped us. Cause he's still knows all the boys in the clubs, so to speak. And so he's actually helped us get the layouts of the buildings, do different things and has, has really been instrumental in also introducing Andrew few other brothel owners and stuff. And for example, in January of this year, we had a rescue of eight more girls. The way that one went down was really interesting because a year earlier, Andrew had sat down with a brothel owner that he had been introduced to and had shared the gospel with the guy. The guy didn't want to hear anything about it. And he was like, you know, I'm making too much money. And I don't really don't care. Fast forward to this year, January 22nd Andrew and some of his Bible students are praying one morning and they feel like, you know, like the Holy spirit says, I want you to go North. And Andrew's like, all right, I don't know anybody North of town. So he's like, alright, I guess we'll go. So the six of them, or seven of them piled into his, his SUV and they headed north of town when they drove 50 miles out into the country on the toll way. As they were driving along, one of the Bible students speaks up and says, hey I think we're supposed to turn on this side road. So they turned on the side road and when they turn there, they went 15 miles on that road, paralleling the tollway. They got up the road 15 miles and one of the other ones speaks up and says hey, I think we're supposed to turn on this turn around and go back to that, that little gravel two track and go down that road. And so they follow that for three miles out into the middle of the country, out in the middle of nowhere. And they pulled up in front of this really ornate gate. This 90 year old gentlemen comes walking out and he looks at him and says, What's your business here? You know, real gruffly. And Andrew is trying to figure out what the heck to tell the guy. Well about that time the guy's son-in-law walks out of the house. He sees Andrew. He stops dead in his tracks, and he's like, how the heck did you find me here? And Andrew, looks at him, he goes, I know I should know you from somewhere, but I don't know how and the guy says, well, you met me in my office a year ago. And Andrew's like, Oh yeah, you're the brothel.... you know it clicked on his head that he's like the brothel owner that I talked to a year ago. That guy became a Christian. His in-laws became Christians. They all received their first Bibles that night. They all got baptized and they all and he set all of his girls free. So we rescued eight more that night, just from him meeting Christ.
Rodney Olsen:
You're talking about releasing young girls from sex trafficking, but you're also releasing some of those brothel owners. I imagine that they would have enormous amount of shame once they come face to face with what it is that they've been doing.
Bradley Hopp:
They do. But at the same time, a friend of mine and I were talking about this the other day, that sin always curious consequences, you know. Look at the story of the woman at the well, or the woman caught in adultery rather, and she was brought, brought before Jesus and all the Jewish leaders are saying stone her and stuff. And Jesus looks at him and he says, he stands up. And he says, whoever is without sin cast the first stone. And then he goes back to writing in the dirt and slowly one by one, they stop and they dropped their stones and then they walk away. And something that's interesting here is legally, under the Jewish Old Testament law, she should have been stoned, but they failed to fulfill the law because they didn't bring two or three witnesses along. And they didn't bring the man along. If they caught her in the act of adultery, they should have brought him along. And so Jesus, knowing this knows that he can't justly have a case because he didn't have two or three witnesses and he doesn't have the man. And so he goes in and throws this out them, and they all walk away. Now, as I said to my friend the other day, if she would've been pregnant, Jesus looked at her and he said, go and sin no more. He didn't say, be free of the consequences of your sin. He said, go, go and sin no more. If she would have been pregnant, she would have been obliged under his, his current command go and sin no more. She would have been obliged to keep that baby. She would not have been free from the consequences necessarily of that sin. Well, you know, oftentimes we can, you know, these brothel owners, they can set the girls free, but they're still gonna have that remorse. They're free from the guilt. They're free from the condemnation. You know, he who says he, he who Christ sets is free indeed. So they would have been free from that guilt and that condemnation, but they're still gonna have that remorse, that sorrow from that. And it's going to be a godly thing. That's going to keep them from doing it again. It's not always an unhealthy thing to have that remorse because it keeps us from doing it again.
Rodney Olsen:
You've mentioned that some of the girls have been stolen away from their families. Some of them, their families have actually been involved, but for those girls who have been stolen from their families, is there opportunity for them to, to reunite. And what's been some of the results of that.
Bradley Hopp:
I don't know any of the stories of the 20 girls that were set free from the first brothel owner. I don't believe that any of the girls have gone back to that situation because a lot of times, if they do go back to that situation, they would end up back in that same situation. You know, they would have ended up back up in the same situation that oftentimes that got them there in the first place. In other words, there was some reason that they ended up getting trafficked and to send them back into either their village or whatever would be just putting them back into the hands of the, of the original sellers. So to speak the kidnappers in the first place. And so oftentimes it's safer for us to keep them, you know, they have the right to go back. If they want to.
Bradley Hopp:
As I said, the one girl, she saved her money from, from selling the products to us. And she used that money to go back to her, her brothel owner, because she thought he was in love with her. So they have the freedom to go back if they want to. And none of them have chosen to. One of the young ladies that actually won't talk about her parents. Won't talk about how she came to be trafficked. Won't talk about any of that stuff she actually learned to read and write. She learned to do her math. She learned, passed all of her high school classes. She got all caught up. She took her insurance classes and passed her insurance boards and is now as of last summer living in her own place. And, and actually is a licensed insurance agent.
Rodney Olsen:
It's an incredible story to hear someone going from being trapped into an opportunity like that, to be running themselves in their own business and to, to be doing so well in life. It must give you great encouragement to keep doing what you're doing,
Bradley Hopp:
It really does, because there's a lot of times where when you're doing stuff like this, especially when you're, when you're rescuing girls from just absolute hell on earth, as much as I talk about Christianity, there are sources on the other side that don't, don't want to see what we're doing done. You know, they do try to discourage you and dissuade you from doing what you're doing. So yeah, it makes it a challenge some days, but, but you look at those stories and you're like, you know what? This actually brings up a really good story that I was reminded of here a couple of weeks ago. And it really kind of summarizes Teshuah And we actually have some bracelets that I, I hadn't made this connection until just a couple of weeks ago, but we have some bracelets that have starfish on them that the girls have made.
Bradley Hopp:
And the story goes that this little boy is standing on the beach and it's low tide and there's all these thousands and thousands of thousands of starfish all down the beach, they're all trapped because it's low tide. And this elderly gentleman comes up and he's standing there on the shore with his little boy and he's watching a little boy throw the starfish back in. He goes, what are you doing, son? And he goes, I'm throwing the starfish back cause otherwise I'll die. And the elderly gentlemen listed and then goes son, you're not going to be able to rescue all of them. You know, you might as well just quit. You're not gonna be able to rescue all of them and you're not going to make a difference. And the little boy stands there and thinks about it for a second. And he reaches down and picks up a starfish and checks it back into the ocean. And he goes, I made a difference for that one. And that's the thing, you know, there's I was, I was looking at some trafficking numbers tonight before we came on the air and nearly more, nearly 4 million adults and 1 million children are victims of sex trafficking and seven out of 10 of them are exploited in Asia and the Pacific region. It's a 97 or $99 billion a year industry. It's a huge industry. And while we may not be able to get to all of them, we can make the difference in one or two or five or 20 or 40 or 80, we can make the difference in their lives. So it really means a lot to me to be able to make that difference, even just a few people's lives.
Rodney Olsen:
I was going to ask about the numbers and the scope of the problem, and you've outlined that, and it is shocking, but I do wonder sometimes. And I remember once being in India and in a street where there were hundreds of brothels and they estimated between 12 and 15,000 girls being prostituted in that street. And my mind started to turn to the amount of guys that, that each girl sees each day and therefore continuing to try and do the maths in my head and come to terms with the enormous number of people that are using these terrible, terrible services. It's a huge problem.
Bradley Hopp:
And you know, this is, this brings up something on our podcast, Liberty Unveiled. We were talking about on Monday when we were courting and Ghislaine Maxwell was arrested during the last 30 days. She's Jeffrey Epstein's girlfriend and accomplice. And she has supposedly has proof, well she does have proof of a global pedophile and human trafficking ring. In the UK There was a massive global pedophile ring bust, 31 children are rescued and 700 suspects are being investigated. Germany is investigating 30,000 potential suspects in a pedophile ring, 116 trafficker arrests and 1,489 victims were rescued. Florida had a six human traffickers busted, and five women rescued. Pennsylvania had eight men arrested as part of a trafficking ring. Spain had 12 arrests and a thousand victims rescued. Italy had 10 arrested in a trafficking ring. A Baltimore businessman paid $90,000 to sex trafficking operation, The feds charge. A man in California, was arrested for operating a $21 million international sex trafficking website. Bangladesh, 52 were arrested in a trafficking ring, Scotland, dozens of arrests and 18 rescued. Malaysia had 18 police officers and army officials arrested for human trafficking. It's amazing. A French man was arrested for raping 300 plus young girls. India, 67 rescued out of trafficking there. So, I mean, I just skipped over several of them, quite a few of them actually in the trafficking numbers.
Rodney Olsen:
When we start to try and think through these numbers and see the size of this problem. And we can see that most of the time it is fueled by a desire, especially by men who have a desire to, to act in a way that they should not be acting. And that is absolutely evil. There would be some who would see prostitution would see pornography as something that as long as the participants are willing it's okay. What would you say to that?
Bradley Hopp:
A major, major, major misnomer, because oftentimes men are looking at pornography and they think that the girls are willing, but oftentimes they're not. I think they said like 70% or higher are actually trafficking victims. And what you're seeing well, looks like they're willing participants, but they're really not. And oftentimes the reason they look like they're willing participants is because they've either been threatened with death or their family has been threatened, or they're, they're being told if you don't participate and you don't act the way we want you to act your family, it will be killed. There's much in the way they have coercion and blackmail. And, and so, you know, when, when men think that that, that all, this is all just fun and games and it's, and nobody's really being hurt us, not the really the case. That's not really the truth. There is no choice. If, if you are told either do this or you'll be executed or do this, or your family will be hurt and you've already been raped and you've already been, see something that happens.
Bradley Hopp:
And if you look at the method for most, all of the traffickers, when they're grooming somebody, they will first rape them and, and what that does psychologically to the person is it breaks down there. If you talk to trafficking victims, they'll, they'll always say after I was raped, I felt like I was worth nothing and it causes the psychological and spiritual damage to them. And so then when their frame is, are threatened and stuff, they still care for their families. And they're like, I'm not worth anything anyway. So therefore I might as well, you know, I'll to save my family. I'll, I'll do what I'm told.
Rodney Olsen:
It's a very dark world and sometimes we just have to call things for what they are. We're talking about an industry, so to speak, we're talking about sex work, and we use all these phrases, but obviously if women are being coerced in any way to participate, and especially for these young girls, that's not sex work, that's not an industry. That's, as you say, rape, that's, that's pure and simple rape.
Bradley Hopp:
This is where I get really frustrated. And really, yeah, I suppose angry would be the right word with the, I try to be nice. The numbskulls in, in Holland and, and in Northern Europe that are, that are protesting for a sex workers' rights and stuff like that. If you go back to the, really the basis of all of this, even the ones that are older and say, they're there willingly. I will guarantee that if you look back through their past, they were molested when they were a child. And so if they were molested as a child, even though they think they're there willingly, now, they didn't start out there. They were molested, they were raped when they were a child, there has been some kind of childhood traumatic damage done to these children.
Bradley Hopp:
Like my partner, Andrew is rescuing where they're, they're still underage and their minors, or where they say they're willingly in the industry as adults or whatever.
Rodney Olsen:
I don't imagine that that point of view makes you very popular in some circles.
Bradley Hopp:
No, but you know what? I, I'm a farmer came from Iowa and I really don't care. You know, I'm not trying to be crass, but it's, you know what I care more about. I care more about the people that we're rescuing. And I care more about the people that are being damaged than I do about me being popular or anything else. When you damage a child, you're causing things to be set in motion. And Jesus said, well, he took this, this approach to it when you damage one of these children. And he said, when you, when you cause one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for you. If you'd had a millstone tied around your neck and you've been tossed in the ocean, He doesn't take to it kindly. It causes a string of damage in their lives. But then what it does is it also causes them to go on and become abusers later. A lot of times, and it perpetuates, you know, Andrew has an expression and it's really true hurting people, hurt people. That's the reason we take the approach of, of getting them healed in and completely made whole before we set them back out into the, into the world on their own.
Rodney Olsen:
I'm wondering if someone who's listening today and thinking, this is something I need to get behind. This is something I need to act on. How can they contact you and make a difference?
Bradley Hopp:
To make it easy on everybody? I have two URLs for our website. I have to teshuahtea.com, which is T E S H U A H .com. But the easier one is deliverancetea.com. I just decided after two years that it would be probably smart to make it a little bit easier on people. So deliverancetea.com is a easy way to find us on Teshuah or on deliverancetea .com. They can go to the donate page and under the donate page, we have a direct link, a PayPal link to the rescue house. So when somebody makes a donation there, it does not go through me. It does not go through the, the business side of everything. It goes direct to the rescue facility and helps us take care of the, because it costs a lot of money. A typical rescue mission is about $500, but after care or the initial aftercare, getting them new clothes medical care, all the things that they need, all the toiletries, all that stuff because they literally come to us with the clothes on their back and nothing else. And so we get them all new clothes, toiletries, medical care that costs about $2,000. But then on a monthly basis, per girl, that's in our rescue facility, it costs us a $16.67 a day per girl. Well, what I haven't told you about is we had a brothel owner reach out and he's like, my brothel has been shut down because of COVID and I've been housing and caring for the girls for the last six months, and I can't keep doing it. And I heard about you guys and so here's my 13 girls. So we now have 41 girls and two female staff in our, in our rescue house. We're in the process of finding a second one because obviously a 2300 square foot house is too small. So we need to expand and get more staff. So when somebody makes a donation that helps us defray the costs of, of that, cause it costs right now with 41, girls is closer to 21 or $22,000 a month that it costs us to care for everything. But a donation is, is, is a great way to get behind what we're doing.
Rodney Olsen:
And we'll include links to the website in the show notes. So you can check that out at bleeding, daylight.net. You can find all the information there. Brad, it's been wonderful to speak to you speaking about some, some very dark things, but, but the light is starting to shine through in, in so many of those areas. We thank you for the work that you are doing and thank you for your time here today.
Bradley Hopp:
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Emily Olsen: 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

Tyler D. Smith is a pastor, NBA sports writer, basketball coach, and author. He's also worked in the Christian music industry. He graduated from Lincoln Christian University and has served in ministry since 2005. Today we welcome him to Bleeding Daylight.
 
 
  
Tyler D. Smith: https://tylerdsmith.net
Searching for Seven: https://www.searchingforseven.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/searchingforsevenbook
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen: 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Today’s guest has already done so much in life but he is forever searching for more. He has just released a book titled Searching for Seven. We’re about to find out what it’s all about in this edition of Bleeding Daylight.
 
Tyler D. Smith is a pastor, NBA sports writer, basketball coach, and author. He's also worked in the Christian music industry. He graduated from Lincoln Christian University and has served in ministry since 2005. He lives in Indiana with his wife, Katelyn and their two daughters, Addi and Ellie. He's recently released the book Searching for Seven. Over the next several minutes, we'll find out a bit more about the book and about Tyler. It's a pleasure to have you join us. Welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Thank you so much for having me. How are you?
 
Rodney Olsen:
I'm well, I could have said a lot more about you, including the fact that you even find time to record a bunch of music. Is there anything that you can't do?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Well? I mean, I've been very blessed. All the things I get to do, it's a, you know, all the things kind of fit together and I still make sure I prioritize, you know, things that are most important. And yeah, I would say I'm maybe not the best dancer in the world.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Okay. Yeah. I can relate to that. Now. I mentioned your book, which starts with a lesson that you learned back when you were just 15. Tell me about that basketball game that, that changed your life and the lessons that you learned from it.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah, that's something that I didn't really understand until much later in life, which I love when, uh, when God does that for us, it was a random game. I was playing JV basketball at the time, which here in Indiana, it's the step right below the big time, the varsity team. And I was a sophomore like very well there, one particular game where it wasn't playing well, the coach pulled me out of the game and then like a minute or two later, he put me back in and I had all this adrenaline from being mad at the situation. So I got in the game and played really well at that point. Well, that game actually changed the trajectory of my basketball career. I ended up dressing varsity later that year, I played the next two years and then God actually used basketball to get me to go to this Christian university. Honest truth, the only reason at the beginning that I went, I had no intention of being in ministry or really anything of that nature. I wanted to go major in communications and play basketball and that was it. Um, but after one year that school, there was a local youth group that called me and asked me to start up a youth program. And I've actually been doing youth ministry ever since it's been 15 years. And so I look back at that moment and I think man, if it wasn't for that one random game basketball game by sophomore year, the trajectory of what I ended up being into ministry after that, it's crazy to look back and see how God used that experience.
 
Rodney Olsen:
I notice that you use a lot of stories to communicate. Do you find that you naturally think in analogies?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Absolutely. Uh, there could be something random happened on the side of the road and I'll say, Hey, that's a good sermon analogy. Actually some of my students, a couple of them are in ministry now. Um, they, they joke with me and they'll call me or text me and say, Hey, this is a good sermon analogy because that's just the way my mind thinks. I feel like people in general just really relate to stories and analogies. And so I try to do that the best that I can.
 
Rodney Olsen:
And does your wife fear that at times knowing that anything that happens could end up being a sermon illustration?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Well, thus far she's also a preacher's kid. So she grew up having those analogies from, so I try to make sure I don't do anything too embarrassing to her. And, and just to, if it's an analogy about her or the kids, I try to try to build them up the best I can.
 
Rodney Olsen:
You're also a sports writer and you said that you did want to work in communications. So tell me how all that fits together.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah. So going to college, you know, for that degree, I really wanted to get into broadcasting journalism, and I was doing a little bit of it on the side, just more as an outlet, a way to enjoy sports and talk about sports. But what happened was on my sports, Twitter feed, I was able to build a nice little following and that helped me land this side of sports, running for the Pacers and basketball, which is the college team here. And, you know, I feel like I'm writing constantly, whether it's for sports, writing a message for church, writing a blog, it's just something that I love doing. And it's one of those things as, as a writer, it's almost like you're, you're never fully satisfied until you write what you felt like you were called to write, and then you're onto the next project. Um, but it's cool getting a chance to combine the two, any chance that I get this project with the sports running gig, where I was able to raise awareness and money for a homeless project in Indianapolis, and one of the NBA players actually retweeted it and got involved. So there's, there's ways that you can combine, um, you know, sports and faith and writing process
 
Rodney Olsen:
Do you sometimes find, even though that you have been able to combine them, that there are conflicts between those two sides?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I think in some situations, depending on the employer, depending on the project that you're involved in, um, I'm thankful that, uh, the sports running gig that I have, there's a lot of freedom. Uh, the, the owner of the website is a Christian himself. Um, so there's not a whole lot of conflict on, on my end. I could see for some people, especially the beat writers, that the ones that follow the team everywhere, you know, I go to the home games, but if it's a beat writer for a big paper or big station, you know, they need to report anything and everything, even if it's against, you know, maybe, uh, some of their beliefs or anything, but I've been, I've been blessed in that way.
Rodney Olsen:
And we are going to get to talk about your book in a little while. But another thing that actually adds into that is, is the life experience that you talk about throughout that book and the stories that come out of it. Uh, another area that you've worked in is, is Christian music. Tell me about that.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah. Another thing that was a dream job for me, a buddy of mine who is now out in San Diego, he started this company from the ground up to work in the Christian music field. Uh, putting on Christian shows, promoting them. We were mainly, uh, through the Midwest in America. And, uh, we had just, a lot of shows, got to work with artists, such as Newsboys and Toby Mac and skillet and Switchfoot and just a lot of artists. So it was really cool to get a bit of a behind the scenes look, to be able to spend some time with tour buses and get to know the artists. And really you see when you see all of the work leading up to a show, all the promotion, all the details. And then when the show actually hits, you know, that's almost like a sports analogy to, you know, all the work leading up to the game, you see the fans, the reactions, you see maybe a decisions for Christ. And it's a very rewarding thing once it all comes together, but that was a great, it was probably about three years. I was in that company.
 
Rodney Olsen:
It's interesting when we're talking about some of those musicians that have such a high profile, I've had the opportunity through radio too, to see some of that closeup too. And I was certainly, and I don't want you to name names, but I have certainly seen that there are some that absolutely live up to what's on the album and they live up to the lifestyle that they portray in public. And there are others that don't. Do you think that there's a trap for, for some musicians in, in that world?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I think so, especially, you know, I'm just a big Christian music fan in general, you know, even apart from the company I was in and I like to listen to interviews, I like to hear their stories and you've had some artists even the last few years basically say that, yeah, this is a very tough industry. And there's a lot of people that maybe are higher than you that are only worried about the bottom line. They're only worried about streams and sales and all that. And you can fall into that trap, even though it's Christian music into that, maybe rock star mentality. I think it all comes back to the people you're surrounding yourself with. And sometimes those artists were forced to be around maybe people that aren't really building them up and care about other things. But if you can find the right support group, even if you're traveling, it's going to be really important. And you know, like you said, I agree that, you know, when you get the inside, you kind of see which artists are doing this or that, or which ones are living up to it. And, um, it can be a little disappointing at times, but it can also be a good thing when you find some of those genuine people that are really doing it for a purpose.
 
Rodney Olsen:
And there are certainly some very genuine people that are, uh, just the same as they are on stage in person. And that's always wonderful to find, but I'm wondering for your perspective, seeing as you've been close up, do you think that sometimes we, we pay too much attention on what people who are in the public eye might say, for instance, you're up close to some, some sportspeople and also some musicians, specifically Christian musicians, do you think sometimes we get it wrong by trying to take our cues from, from those people who are most of the time they're just entertaining.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Absolutely. Um, you gotta pick your role models very carefully. Um, you know, just because they say maybe something from stage doesn't mean that they're necessarily living that out. Same thing with athletes, you know, so many times fans get upset when they see an athlete that made a mistake. And I just want to remind them, you know, these are humans, and even though they're in the public eye, they have a lot of pressure on them, a lot of stress. So I think I would, I would try to follow, um, you know, the words of Paul that said follow me as I follow Christ. And if you find those people, whether it's celebrity or, or just a friend that you can really see the fruit that they are following Christ the best I can then maybe take some cues from them and follow up some other examples. But we gotta be careful when we make people Pete Rose or even idols in our lives. I suppose.
 
Rodney Olsen:
That's the other side of it too, is that we know for ourselves that we fail. So often we mock it up and we give ourselves licensed to do that. And we say, yes, I'll ask for forgiveness or move on. I've I've messed it up again. But we often don't give those people in the public eye, the same license to mess it up, ask for forgiveness and move on, where we're holding them to an unrealistic.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah, I'm reminded of a quote. I can't remember who said it actually, but they said, you know, we often judge others by their actions and we judge ourselves by our intentions and there's kind of a, a gap there of how we treat other people compared to herself.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Having a look at you at your book now searching for seven. It's an interesting title. Maybe you could explain a little bit of what that means.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Seven, as far as the book, title is a double meaning, a seven scripturally is the number of God. If you really look deep into it, it means completeness and perfection. So in a way I am searching for him, but I'm also searching for my own faith seven days a week. And I started to realize, as I was writing, I didn't have a title at the very beginning, but all of my notes were basically fitting into the same Mike, that same category of, I need to look for God seven days a week. Can't just be Sunday. Can't just be at a camp. Or when tragedy strikes, I have to look for him, be aware of him. I believe he seeks us and is pursuing us always. But like any relationship, there's gotta be a two way street there. Um, I don't want to say, you know, God show up and I don't do anything to return to seek him. So that is where the number seven comes in.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Going back to that very first story in the about that, that basketball game. There's a great lesson in there too, about you being put back in because many people would probably assume that God is there watching us. You're saying we're searching for him, but he's also searching for us. And we can sometimes think that that searching for us is to try and catch us out. And yet you drew something very different from that basketball game.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah. The coach that came over to put me back in the game, I couldn't believe that he did it because I was playing so poorly for so long. And I also, I mentioned in the book that I was kind of a know it all 15 year old, and I was talking back to him and stuff and I was sitting there thinking this is not good for my basketball career, but he came over to the main, you know, a minute or two later pulled me back in and said, let's go. And after the game actually told me that, you know, I know, I know there's more in there for me. It was years later that I realized, I believe that's what God does to us. You know, when we screwed up many times, he doesn't just say, you know, forget you and stay on the bed.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
He comes right back over to us. He doesn't get back in the game and you can look, you know, story after story and scripture of these people is men and women that screwed up that maybe had a bad past, or maybe they were involved in the current sin. Jesus was patient with them, comforting show compassion. And the second they came to him is the second day we're forgiven. And so that's another example of, you know, why would we think God can forgive people, but he can't forgive us. You know, he's seeking us out and it's not just to call out our sin. It's to love us and to say, Hey, get back in the game. I know, I know there's more in there.
 
Rodney Olsen:
That would be a very powerful story with the young people that you work with in, in youth ministry. What are, our young people having to face that we never had to face up to?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
One of the overlying factors is similar in terms of what people have dealt with through the years. But because of social media, I think it is, it's just spotlighted. It's, uh, it's highlighted even more for, you know, today's generation. So what I mean is I, I feel like many years people have been searching for their own identity. They're trying to find their own purpose, their own meaning. Am I valued? You know, do I have any point? Is my life, my existence mean anything to anybody? Why am I here? Those kinds of questions. But again, because of all of these things that kids have today and young people have today, they're constantly comparing themselves to others. Um, they, you know, it's like, Hey, if I had what the kids in my class had or what the kids on my street had, I was in good shape, but now I'm comparing myself to millions of people online every day.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
So even if you have something good or you have a good life, you're like, well, somebody else has something better. And you maybe, maybe never content with that. Or maybe even though, because you have all of this stuff, what's crazy is today's generation. They have, they have more than everybody else, but they're also bored. They're more bored than everybody else. Cause they just want that instant gratification. So it's a constant comparison game and game that nobody can ever win. And I'm still looking for purpose and meaning and identity, but they're looking for often times and wrong.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Most of us have experienced people that are even much older that are still looking for that identity. They're still looking for their place in the world expecting that, Hey, I thought when I get a bit older that it would all fall in place and it hasn't yet. What do you see as the antidote to that common call of the heart, to where
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I think a big thing which I touch on in chapter two is we've got to find a way to serve because we were created to do it. We were created in Christ to do good works. And I feel like sometimes when we don't put action to our faith and we don't get out there and serve people and do ministry of some kind, it's like an item that you haven't used in your house for a long time, it's going to stop working. You know, actually mentioned that in the book that I don't have something to say for things that are so serious, like depression and suicide and mental health. But I do think if someone was struggling with those things, I would point them to some of those scriptures where I would say, Hey, let's go serve somewhere together. Let's see when you help someone else.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
When you give your life to others, will you start to feel that purpose and that meaning and feel like I'm, I'm worth it. Um, you know, there's a story. I did not share this one in the book, but there's a story I heard of a lady who was that very day. She was about to take her own life. And somebody came up and asked her where the vending machine was and she walked him over to it and showed it to them. And they said, Oh, thank you so much. And kid you, not that woman decided to stay alive because for one minute she felt needed. So those kinds of stories just gives you chill sometimes because it's like, we've got to help people understand that part of their purpose and finding their own value is when they help other people, they feel like they they're useful. And so I would say, get out there and serve, and also again, surround yourself with the right people and continue to see God in every way you possibly can think of.
 
Rodney Olsen:
I was certainly going to touch on that. I noticed in the book, you, you mentioned that if you have a friend who is suffering from depression, to ask them to be involved in something with you, and I know that you're not suggesting that, that they don't take medical advice and, and all those good things, but that whole idea of actually serving rather than focusing in on oneself, it seems to be an upside down concept that we kind of know in the back of our mind, it's, it's a good thing to do, but so rarely is it practiced. And I wonder if that's part of that yearning for where do I fit in as well?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I would agree. And you, you mentioned that phrase upside down. I think there's so many things that Jesus taught that were upside down. You know, for example, if you want to be great and his eyes, you know, especially around the country, I know it's worldwide in many places, but it's all about, you know, success means how much money and how many followers and you know, the attention you have. Jesus had that upside down approach of if you want to be great, you need to be a servant.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Do you think that sometimes we even lose sight of that in our churches? I know that there are many people searching for significance and, and searching for what is the meaning of life, and yet, sometimes our churches aren't showing the way forward in that serving one another.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah, I think the church can do a much better job. You know, if a church is to focus on just the numbers, I've heard it said before that, you know, the ABC is the attendance, attendance building and cash. And if it's just kind of like what they put their focus on, uh, then people may lose the heart of what they're doing more at the same time. It's, it's a group of Christians. They feel it in their heart to serve, but it's more of a like, look at me, you know, I'm on a trip, you know, I'm serving, look how great I am. You know, that's not groups as well. So I would, you know, find a, or at least encourage, I'm not saying, leave your church, encourage your church and other Christians to have that right mindset of, I want to serve because I do it for the least of these. I'm doing it for Christ, even a cup of cold water in his name, you know, it's for him and have the right mindset, you know, servant's heart. And that's the way to go.
 
Rodney Olsen:
One of the chapters in your book is Choose the Right Battles, uh, talking about deciding what we're going to focus on. And I think in some ways it ties into one of your blog posts, which is about the criticism that people so often get. And we seem to live in a world where everyone is open to criticism that you touched on the whole social media thing earlier. And that there are so many people willing to point the finger and accused. Do you see that as being, uh, something that's very damaging in our society? And how do you see that play out with the people that you meet with daily?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
It's a big problem. You know, I touched on it, whether it was the book or the blog about, you know, Christian artists and people saying, Oh, they don't say Jesus enough. Or, you know, this pastor said, one thing that I disagree with and therefore I should call him a false teacher and a heretic and tell everyone to stop following. And you know, the problem is when non-Christians see that kind of division and that kind of criticism, you know, it's tough because they'll think I don't want to be part of that. I want no part of that whatsoever. So we've gotta be very careful, you know, we want to build people up and I make the point, you know, imagine if the marriage work like that. Imagine if I said, Oh, I disagree with my wife over one thing. So we have to get a divorce.
 
You know, you're not always gonna agree a hundred percent with everybody, but you just immediately go, it's tough. You know, you look at things like the super bowl, you know, what's everyone talking about, Oh, how horrible the halftime show was. And this person, I mean, every single year, it's like the first thing people want to do. And yeah, social media has played a part in that. You know, everyone says, I've got to share my opinion and I've got to join the crowd of saying what's good. And what I don't like, you know, you think of current events, everyone has an opinion, even if it's not educated about what side I want to take. And I want to be very loud about it and, and instead, can we take the approach of love? Can we take the word of scripture where it says be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow, to become angry and just take a more calm approach. Even if you disagree with someone, can you do it in love? Because that's just creeping into our society with our young kids as well.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Do you feel we hold the balance between standing up for what we believe to be right, and to be the truth, uh, and sometimes having to call out a error or heresy as many people would call it, how, how do we draw that balance between that? And, and then just throwing mud at everyone there, as we see so often in social media,
 
Tyler D. Smith:
The best thing is just to follow the best we can, the example of Christ, because he would call people out, but he would do it in a loving way. He was very passionate. Obviously following his conviction, I would always tell someone, follow your convictions if you feel led to speak up, but be very, very careful how you're doing it. Um, there's just so many examples that there's people on both sides of every debate. You know, sometimes I even think there's four sides because there's the Christian side and there's non-Christian side on each and they don't always agree with even their own team. And so you have to be very careful approach approaching. The key thing I think is conversation, ask questions, show people, you value them and care. And then maybe you have an opportunity to share why you believe, why you believe instead of just putting everything on blast, you know, ripping them apart for having a thought that's different than you.
 
Rodney Olsen:
I like that idea of showing people that you, you value them, that you, you care for them. Uh, that's in, in sharp contrast to what we see a lot of the time. And yet, if we do truly care for someone where we're wanting to, to help them, we're not wanting to just tear them down and that seems to be it's that upside down world that, that Jesus offers. And also having the humility to recognize that maybe they do have it right and we need to learn from them. That can sometimes be the hardest lesson.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Absolutely. But it's one that I, I mean, maybe earlier in my life, I wouldn't like to have learned, but now I would love to learn that I would love to be, you know, take a humble approach, but then, um, hear other ideas and be able to truly listen to my brothers and sisters and maybe some of the hurts or some of the, you know, okay. Like why, why do you feel that way? What, what have you gone through to make you draw that conclusion? And just a better conversation better way forward is what we're looking for.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Coming back to the book. What was it that made you decide to, to ride it? Was this a journey that you yourself had to go on. And so it's those principles that you learned in that effort?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
It was, you know, I think especially through high school and in the beginning of college, I was known as a Christian, but it was more of the, you know, he doesn't really do anything too bad if he goes to church kind of Christian and I realized later in life that there's much more to it. And Jesus says the following him, not just believe in him following him. And so all these things that have happened, you know, a lot of the stories from the book or from recent, and then some are from a long time ago, but it's been my own journey. And there was a time period when I thought I cannot not write this book. You know, this is an offering to God, whoever ends up reading it. I hope it blesses them. But it's something that, you know, my kids will be able to read one day, maybe kids in the student ministry can read, you know, whoever else that God thinks needs to hear it. I hope they get their hands on it, but it's my own journey. It's an offering. And I just hope God uses it.
 
Rodney Olsen:
I was going to ask you, who do you feel that the target audience might be? And you've mentioned some people there, but do you think broadly there's a range of people that would enjoy this. I'm wondering specifically as well about those people who might be saying I'm searching for something in life. I'm not sure Jesus, is it, is this book going to work for them as well?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
That's my goal. Um, sometimes people will say, when you do a project, whether it be a book or anything else to have a really specific target audience, but for me, because of this topic being so broad, I wanted to reach a broad audience. And I've already had a lot of feedback from both teenagers and older folks. Um, you know, some that were maybe pleasantly surprised, uh, an older generation that was thinking, Hey, this, this is speaking to me, which is great. But yeah, I definitely want it to fall in the hands of some people that maybe they're non-believer, or maybe they're on the, on the fringe or maybe they, they did the whole Christian thing. And now we're not sure the really, they think there's even a chance that there could be a God, then he is worth seeking out to find out. So it is a very broad audience of who I'm trying to reach with the book, but I'm also thankful that I, I think it turned out that way that, uh, it can be,
 
Rodney Olsen:
And of course the title itself searching for seven suggests that it's not for people who may have their mind made up, but people who are still in that search and that should be all of us.
Tyler D. Smith:
I agree. Absolutely. And hopefully, hopefully a lot of it is, you know, I believe worded in that way that, you know, I'm not trying to come across as the one that has all the answers or, you know, the hero of the story. It's basically, you know, Hey, I'm, I'm another person that's on this journey, looking for him through all things. Here's some things that have worked scriptures that have, uh, meant a lot to me. And I hope they do to you as well, but absolutely. I hope that it helps a skeptic, uh, look for God and I hope it helps, uh, the current Christian to strengthen their faith as they continue to do. So.
 
Rodney Olsen:
And you've mentioned that even though the book hasn't been released for too long, so far, you have had some, some feedback. What are people saying about the book as they're reading it and getting back?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
It's been very humbling to see the feedback so far. Um, I've talked to some and a lot of people that I don't know, but they've, they've said things like, you know, this is the playbook, uh, like my personal playbook for looking for God. Um, I, I got to get in touch with a high school friend that I haven't talked to in probably 15 years and someone who was not always a Christian and, and, you know, came to faith a few years back. And this person said that, you know, this is the book, um, for the, for the person who is tired of being, uh, maybe preached at doesn't mean, they're tired of going to church, but just the constant, like you need this and this. And here's why. And so I was very humbled by that. Um, but yeah, just seeing I actually, I pulled the Bob Goff and put my phone number in the back of the book for anyone interested. Um, just because I'm so open in the conversation and whether it's a text or phone call or anything, not just to get feedback and, and, you know, Pat myself on the back, but more, Hey, let's discuss this further. So I've been very humbled by what I've heard so far. And it's a, it's very, very rewarding.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
And as I say, the book is all about that search. It's written in language that people are going to find absolutely accessible and what I find interesting is that again, that point that you constantly use story and we see in the scripture that there is story after story, we read those narratives. Do you think sometimes we, we break scripture down too much and we concentrate on, on verse after verse, and, and of course there is time for that deeper study, but we, we lose the, the bigger stories that we can find in scripture?
 
Yeah, I think so. Like you said, there's a time and a place for, I think all of these different strategies when you were seeking God and looking through his word Archer, and this is not original idea, you know, we've seen other churches do it, but do this thing called storying in their small group time where, you know, the leader, instead of feeling like they have to teach a Bible study, they simply bring a story from scripture. They try to share it by memory at first, then the group read the story. Then they go around and talk about, okay, who are you in this story? And it's a very effective process that again, people relate the most to those stories. I want to be like, Jesus, what did he do? He taught so much in story. Um, and yeah, he, you know, sermon on the Mount and other times teaching in the synagogue. And that's a great thing too, and it's needed. But most of his interaction was out with people, small groups of people, large groups, but he would share stories. And I feel like, know, the more we can do that, the better off we're going to be. And the more we're gonna understand the heart of God.
 
Rodney Olsen:
You mentioned that a lot of the book came out of your own desire to keep searching for Jesus through everything that you do every day in the writing process. Did you continue to, to learn, did you continue to find Jesus in ways that you didn't expect to find Him?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Absolutely. And that's one of the goals of my entire life is to be a continual learner and really everything that I'm doing, you know, even when I applied for the coaching position, they said, what's your greatest strength? And I said, I'm a student of the game. I'm continuing to learn. I don't have it all figured out. I want to be that way in my faith. Um, there's a lot of stuff that notes over the last few years that I wrote down that I want to include in the book and some stories that happen and then some things happen more recently. And I kept thinking, you know, thank you God for, you know, teaching me that and giving me those words, um, to include in this endeavor. And yeah, it's a great thing to be able to, uh, continue to learn and grow.
 
Rodney Olsen:
If you had to just outline a few of the great takeaways that are in the book that you want people to, to latch onto, what would they be?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I think most importantly, I think too many people in the world want God to be real and want God to show up. But those same people often do nothing to seek him in return. And I've been in that boat myself. But as I said earlier, I believe that it needs to be an actual relationship, um, where it's not just, Hey God, you know, I'm going to spend time with you one day a week and then I'll see you next week. I'm going to go think about my own, everything else that's going on. We need to seek him. And the more we understand you have the awareness that he is there and all, you know, no matter what we're doing, that's going to help us. Um, one of the takeaways too, that I try to teach in church is that, you know, when people go off to conferences or camps or Christian concerts and those moments, they, they often feel really impacted.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
One of the reasons is their mindset when they're in those environments is it's in the right place. They know they're going to hear from God and they're open to it. The trick is how do you get to have that mindset on a day to day basis? It's easy when you're overlooking the ocean, the mountains, the stories guy, or you're going through a tragedy, or you're going through a promotion or something, you know, a blessing in life. What about the Tuesday afternoon when you're in your cubicle at work? How can you have that awareness that God is there, but that is also Holy ground that you're standing on. That is the key. And that's the process, the journey that I to encourage people with in this book.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Well, the book certainly does that it's, as I say, an easy to read book, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't challenge. When we're looking at all the things that you have done so far in life and all the things that you're currently doing, I guess it's difficult for you to project ahead and say where you might be, but do you have any inkling as to where God is going to lead you in the coming years?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I'm not sure, but I'm looking forward to what happens. I'm very blessed and fortunate with all the things that I'm currently doing. I try to live my life one day at a time. And as far as career paths, I try to look maybe a, you know, Hey, here's the next year. Here's what I think for this year. We'll see what the year after that holds. Um, but I that's part of that, that process, you know, I have a, a chapter on, uh, your finding your calling and your will, you know, God's will for your life. And I think it's more of a day to day thing than it is a destination as a career. Um, so I, I'm just trying my best every day to, to listen, spend time with God, um, love what I'm doing for the foreseeable future. And we'll see what the future holds.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Do you think there's more books on the way?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Very possible. I think that if I were to, if God were to reveal a specific topic or title, and that's often how even my, my blogs or my, uh, my sermons come across, if I feel that, um, that nudge from God, then I can start the process and compiling notes and him revealing even more things that he wants me to say. So no current plans. Cause I love that, you know, getting to talk about this one and promote it, but it's very possible in the future.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Tyler, if people wanted to get in touch with you, if, if some of this has sparked some thoughts for them that they want to explore with you, where's the best place to find you
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Best place is probably the book's website, because I know, especially in some parts of the country or the world, um, you can't always find the links if you want to purchase the book. But if you go to the book's website, searching for seven.com, you can find the direct links to purchase. You can also find my blog, my Twitter account, um, different ways that we can connect. And even if you don't want the book, but you want to connect with me, there's ways to do it on there. So searching for seven.com,
 
Rodney Olsen:
It has been great to chat to you to talk through such a range of things, but also to, to hear about this book, which I think is going to be very helpful for a lot of people. And we look forward to hearing a bit more about it as time goes on and, and the lives that it changes, but Tyler, thank you so much for spending time with us today.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Thanks for having me, Rodney. I enjoyed the chat very much.
 
Emily Olsen: 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Tim Winders went from being a multi-millionaire living a lavish lifestyle to a homeless nomad. What caused such a dramatic change and what spiritual and life lessons did he learn along the way?
 
 
Tim Winders: https://www.timwinders.com/
Seek. Go. Create. Podcast: https://seekgocreate.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tim.winders
Twitter: https://twitter.com/SeekGoCreate
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
Emily Olsen: Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen: Tim Winders went from being a multi-millionaire living a lavish lifestyle to a homeless nomad. What caused such a dramatic change and what spiritual and life lessons did he learn along the way?
Where have things landed for Tim over a decade on from those losses?
We’ll find out in today’s episode of Bleeding Daylight.
Rodney Olsen: We all know that life's challenges can teach us more than the good times, but sometimes the journey to those lessons can be very hard. Tim Winders is someone who seemingly had it all until everything he'd worked to achieve was ripped away. These days. He's a speaker, facilitator, coach, author, and podcaster creating and hosting the Seek Go Create Podcast.
I'm very pleased to have him as my guest today, Tim, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Tim Winders: Thank you, Rodney. Great to join you and a great to chat with you on opposite sides of the world.
Rodney Olsen: Let's go back to the two thousands and explore what life was like for you back then.
Tim Winders: yeah, a great question and kind of has, has me going into my memories.
We, in the early two thousands started some businesses in the areas of real estate and, and the way that worked for us, I'm an engineer by training, I'm a, I'm kind of a high energy guy. So when I start something like that, I usually throw myself into it. So shortly after beginning those businesses, we were aquiring anywhere from three to four, sometimes five single family homes or pieces of property per month.
We did that for a number of years. So heading into the mid 2000, I guess we call those the oughts now 2000 ish, five, six, we owned over a hundred pieces of real estate. We probably had it valued at one point and around '07, it was $15 million. Plus we had a coaching business national here in the United States that we were coaching and teaching and training people how to do what we were doing and also a lead generation business that was bringing in leads for motivated sellers and those two companies, coaching and lead gen, was probably would have been valued seven figures plus, and all of that was what we had and, you know, we were, I guess, successful in a lot of people's eyes. We lived in a 6,000 square foot home in a neighborhood that was a resort on a lake in central Georgia with 117 holes of golf and one of our neighbors was a Ritz Carlton. So by all indicators, we were living very well and were very successful leading up to 2008.
Rodney Olsen: That fateful year, 2008. It's got a lot to answer for, but of course we know that there was the global financial crisis. And some people will say, yeah, we predicted it and most say we had no idea. What was the case for you? When did you start to see things begin to turn?
Tim Winders: Well, essentially, that's a great question. Rodney. We actually had coaching clients all over the United States. We had them in Florida. We had them in Las Vegas. We had them in Arizona. We had them in Southern California and so we could see the bubble beginning to emerge in like, '04, '05 and then we saw it heating up in '05, '06' '07. We were seeing, businesses increase, not businesses, but real estate properties increased by 20% year over year in Florida. We had a lot of activity in Florida and you know, when it came to a head for me, And I knew something was going on was I believe it was the tail end of '06.
I got a call. I was on a call with a coaching client in Las Vegas, Nevada. Most people know where Las Vegas, Nevada is and all that goes on there and this coaching client that I may not get the exact numbers, but you'll get the gist of the story he called and said a property went on the market for $225,000 yesterday.
Someone put an offer in for 230, someone put an offer in for 235, should I offer 240? And there was just silence on the line. I recall this Rodney vividly, I've told this story a few times and I just said, we are in trouble. And I mentioned to this client, I said, stop. Don't do anything. Don't do a deal just to get a deal.
There's bigger things at play here, and we just need to pause. And so we were preparing for it. You know, we had some money set aside. We were somewhat warning our clients and our investors, and we knew that there was going to be some form of an adjustment. And like you said, a lot of people said, Oh, we predicted it.
And we said, this was going to happen. I, I think we knew something was going to bust. We knew that there were going to be foreclosures. We knew there were going to be issues in the real estate market. Probably the thing we didn't factor was the level of government involvement in attempting to prop it up that.
You know, if I can point back at what may have messed, messed up, my strategy would be that the government kind of kept things going for longer instead of just ripping the bandaid off, letting things collapse. So, anyway, so that was kind of what we saw leading up to it. We knew it was going to happen.
Rodney Olsen: The prevailing wisdom has always been in the past that real estate is always a sound investment that over time. Property is always going to bring in a return, but that's no longer the case.
Tim Winders: You know? And thank you for reminding me that I used to get up on stages and teach and train and speak and, and tout that in the 60 years, previous real estate has never gone down year, over year. And I did that all the way up until '07, '08 and we were still saying, Oh, real estate will rebound. It will be fine, but you are correct. We're in a different world. We saw real estate. Real estate is still local. I think we need to admit that, but we did see real estate decrease year over year, over year for a few years. And I think, I don't know what it's like in your part of the world or other parts of the world, but in the United States, as we headed into early parts of 2020, we were just now seeing them recover to what they were pre 2008 in many markets in the United States.
Rodney Olsen: I can imagine at the time your whole world is taken up by coaching other people, along with your investments to have the investments come crashing down. It's not only something that hurts you financially, but also knowing that you had been advising so many people, people would have taken your advice and that must have been a weight to bear as well.
Tim Winders: Well, I mean, listen, there was, there were a number of burdens here. Let me also say that you don't build whatever number we want to use, we'll say 15 million in real estate with your own money, you have investors, you have some banks that are involved. You have private people that have taken their hard earned money and said, can you earn returns for me?
And. Probably as, as much as anything that burden kind of ate away at me, Rodney, because these were people that trusted us invested with us. And then as the markets were, you know, it's interesting, it wasn't as much a crash then as almost like a quicksand situation is the analogy that I use because. At any moment and this may even have been to a fault, I literally did think things were going to turn around and that might've been my positive attitude. It might've been my spiritual background. It might've been ignorance. I don't know. But I mean, at any moment, like in ' 08. '09 I said, you know, things are just going to get better and it'll be awesome and we'll recover and we'll be able to get back on track and that led to five years later, 2013, we lost our home. We had gone through bankruptcy. We became homeless and, and began traveling pretty much living in a Honda van. You brought up an interesting point in that I really couldn't continue the coaching and training business. For the simple reason, Rodney, I did not know what to tell people.
If I couldn't do it myself, I don't know if it's integrity. I don't know what kind of words you want to use, but I just couldn't go to Rodney and say, Hey, listen, here's how you buy a property. You buy it here, you buy it low, you fix it up, you sell it, you rent it out. You lease option. I could not do it. If I was not in a position to do it myself, there are a lot of people that have no problem with that.
I couldn't. So after a short period of time, we basically had to shut down the coaching business, even though a lot of people still did it because just like you brought up, I didn't know what to tell people.
Rodney Olsen: It's an interesting dilemma that you've found yourself in at this time, losing this wealth that you had built up and you said that your idea that things were going to turn around came from your enthusiasm, but also from a spiritual background now, That's an interesting one. Tell us about the kind of spiritual background that would drive you to jump on the great American dream of gathering wealth. What, what was it that, that was there in that spiritual background that drove you in that direction?
Tim Winders: Well, as a, I mean, I, I, I am a follower of Christ and that's my that's kind of where I would put myself. Some people might put that in the term, Christian. I actually have. Over the last few years, even kind of separated that out. I, I am a believer in Christ and all that happened on the cross and all that he did for us.
And so I attempt to follow him in all ways. And in the, I guess I'll call it first world. I sometimes call it Americanized Christian mindset. There is this tendency for those that are of the Christian faith to believe that their bank account is a direct correlation to how they're being blessed in, in that world.
And, and I. Kind of fell into that. And so I was sitting here thinking, you know, I'm doing all the things we're supposed to do as, as a Christian. And so all of a sudden we're going through a downturn and you know what, I believe that God is gonna open up the heavens and shine a light on me and everything's going to be okay at any minute now, any minute, now, it things are going turn. And, and, and so that was kinda my mindset from a spiritual standpoint, I'm always. I've always been kind of more of a positive mental attitude guy also. So you mix those two together and what I was doing instead of, you know, cutting costs, getting rid of, you know, overhead that we needed to in business, looking at low performing assets and unloading those even at a discount and, and evaluating what we could do to bring in revenue.
I was probably, you know, there's a term I use a lot, Rodney in, it may be in the scriptures. I'm not sure, but it's thou shalt, not fool thyself. And in many ways I was fooling myself because self-awareness is really such a foundational principle to success in so many ways. And so, and so I was. going against one of my foundational principles, which was thou shalt, not fool thyself.
I was fooling myself thinking that any day now, things were just gonna magically rebound. So I was pulling money from credit lines and, and, you know, paying, paying one credit line to pay off the other one, just to keep some mortgages and things going to try to keep things afloat where. In looking back, I should have just begun a cutting and, and, process of eliminating overhead as, as soon as I possibly could during that time.
Rodney Olsen: So when this all came crashing down and you have this spiritual belief that God needs to shine on me, did it shake your foundation of faith?
Tim Winders: You know, that's, it's interesting. I don't think it shook my foundation of faith, which that foundation is a, is a belief that there is a God that he created us, that there was a creation event that, you know, this is kind of like Tim's version of the Bible, that there was a fall.
And then we needed to be reconnected with the father through what happened on the cross with what Jesus did, the sacrifice that he made. So it didn't shake that foundation. But Rodney, it did shake my foundation in, in what the, I guess the outcome of that belief should be, I guess I thought that because I believed that that, like I said earlier, that there should be some kind of protection or, you know, I'll tell you exactly what it was.
Cause I had long conversations. I, I, you know, some people might. Not understand this. Some people might, but, but I, I communicate with my heavenly father and I have conversations within that go, something like this Lord, what is going on here? We've done all the things that we thought we were supposed to do, but yet.
Our financial world is collapsing. What is up here? And so those were the conversations that I would have and, and they would be long, drawn out conversations. Rodney has this thing played out back in Oh eight Oh nine, 10 11. I would go on long walks on the golf courses in our community. they weren't playing on the golf courses at the time.
Thankfully it was when they were rotating certain golf courses, but I would just walk and I literally, I mean, you kind of heard people talk about crying out to Lord. I would just cry out, Lord. I love you and I want to follow you, but dang, I'm in pain here. This is ripping my insides out. You know, we're losing our house.
You know, I've got kids that are teenagers trying to go to college. What is going on? And kind of the long story shortened there, Rodney is, is I just came to really a deeper understanding of what that relationship was. And his response to me at one point was I'm not an ATM machine. Don't. Don't try to be connected with me when things are going great and then things go bad. You think you're going to come, you know, stick the ATM card in and get finances and cash. That's not what the kingdom of God his kingdom is all about. And so I don't know if that answered your question, but that was really. Where, what was shaken was my understanding of what blessings were all about.
My understanding of what the byproduct of a relationship with the creator with the father was not really that he existed. And I believed in him, it was. What were the results of that and what, and how I should be operating and thinking in terms of that
Rodney Olsen: You touched on something that I have been wanting to explore, and that is that you didn't go through this just on your own. So it wasn't just a financial crash for you, but you're married, you've got teenage kids. How are you all coping with this as a family?
Tim Winders: well, first thing I would say is, you know, in many ways you would have to ask them, but I can, we've had long discussions about this so I could share what we've gone through.
I, I am married, have been married for over 30 years. Beautiful. Her name is glory. So we joked that if you're around her, you have been glorified. And I definitely have for, for many, many years, and. And I'll just, I'll mention what we went through. And then in a separate kind of dialogue, I'll probably mention what the children went through, because that was obviously a separate item, but we have always drawn closer to each other. When we have had issues, that we've had to work through and early on in our marriage, there was some situations with, with her mother that there were some suicide attempts that really could have. Torn into our marriage. We drew closer together during those times and bonded over it and during these times we would, I've always been a guy that thought that I could just roll out of bed and, and figure out a way to make money. And, and Rodney, for, for whatever reason, during those times, it started getting to be where I could not generate the ideas. I, I didn't know what to do everything that I seem to put my hands to didn't lead to any fruit.
So it got to be where my efforts weren't weren't working, which there's a really a deeper spiritual message to that also because many of us think we could do a lot of things on our own. And really for those people that are believers and followers, there's a, there's a whole thing about submitting ourselves.
To the father and to our belief in Christ. And so really I think the byproduct to this bigger picture was from a scripture that I, I quote often for those that, that meant read the Bible. Romans eight 28 is, is that, God will use all things for good, for those that love him. And I believe that the Lord was looking.
To find a way that he could get through to me and so during this process, my wife and I, after it, got to the place where we didn't really know what to do with our time, we couldn't put our hands to anything and earn money. I even tried to even get a job at a local McDonald's in our resort area. And I couldn't even get a job at McDonald's, which is interesting.
Most people would think they could, Rodney, we, my wife and I, we would get up in the morning. And we would get a cup of coffee and we would sit in our home, our big 6,000 square foot home that we had started getting rid of furniture. And because we thought we may have to move at any time as we were getting behind on the mortgages and payments and we would sit and we would get our Bible.
And we would read and we would pray and we would just bounce ideas off of each other. And we would sometimes listen to ministers and we would just press in and attempt to develop a closer relationship with the Lord, which then also meant there was a closer relationship with the two of us. And it strengthened our relationship with him and it also strengthened our relationship with each other. Now that doesn't mean that there weren't struggles in, and we were in a stressful situation. And as, as credit collectors and debt collectors started calling and then the sheriff started knocking on our door when we weren't making payments on our house, that was not.
A positive situation. And she dealt with a lot of stress that caused some health issues. And, and I was probably having my insides ripped out, but that was my wife and I, we actually, during that time learned how to rest and relax. And submit and just to allow ourselves to, I use the word marinade a lot. I don't know if that resonates with people, but we just marinated in the love of our heavenly father.
And some people would say, what do you mean love of heavenly father, you're saying you're going through this horrible financial situation. You know, peace and being relaxed really has very little to do with financial ebbs and flows that we go through. We really need to learn how to function, whether we have a lot or we don't have a lot.
And that's kind of what we learned during that time. My wife and I, so that was my wife. And I can talk more about the children unless I want to pause there and let you interject.
Rodney Olsen: When we have a partner in life, a husband or wife, there's that opportunity that it's going to something like this will either break us apart or it will draw us closer together, but the kids they're watching on and thinking, what have you done with our lives? I'm interested to hear some of their responses.
Tim Winders: Well, a few things they were as this started. Our daughter was finishing up her high school, high school, like 17, 18 years old.
Our son would have been a few years younger than that. So our children are now let me fast forward. Just so people in our children are now 29 and 26. They are well functioning adults. We have great relationships with them. Our daughter is now married and has had our first grandchild, which is cool. And we are now working in business and interacting with our children on almost a daily basis.
So I only say that too, when I back up and go through what they went through, many people would say, Oh boy, this story can't. End. Well, I guess I wanted to give the ending and kind of do time travel to go back before I, before I told what all they went through, you know, when. When you move to a resort community and your children have access to country clubs and the ability to go to a club and charge a meal, or play golf or tennis, or go to a, you know, the indoor pools you do kind of wonder at times if that's a good thing for them, or if you're messing them up and.
And it was probably good that they were able to see that tight lifestyle leading up to when things collapsed. But Rodney, obviously it became difficult when we started to have to tell them, listen, you don't need to go to the club because we knew in the back of our heads, that our account had been suspended.
you know, we're just going to eat in the house. More and, you know, you don't need to, you know, I know maybe you thought you were going to get a certain type car when you turned 16, but you're going to need to drive this Camry that's got 200,000 miles on it and then when you go to college, you know, try to make that car work for you.
So. I think the biggest thing was maybe two or three things. I'll just kind of, I'll just kind of rattle off here. One probably the biggest thing they would say that was a challenge for them was that they saw their parents be successful. I mean, they saw me speak on stage. They saw their mother speak on stages and teach and train and do webinars and videos and, and probably in their eyes, they would tell you, we were, I don't know if invincible, but we could do no wrong in their eyes, which is, that's a lot of that.
You know, a lot of children look at their parents that way and then as this progressed, They, they probably had that challenge and they wondered probably they they've told us later, you know, is being in business for yourself. The way one wants to go is, is, you know, how people earn money and how people work is that even something that's valid in the world.
And there's a whole generation that saw that downturn occur in Oh eight, nine, 10. That the reason they are the way they are today. Where they, they pursue experiences and they're, aren't building and buying the big houses like we did is because of that experience they went through and that's the way our children were.
But the biggest thing Rodney, I want to say is that they also saw. Their mother and I sitting down with the word of God, studying and studying and praying. And we were asking a lot of questions that weren't, it wasn't as if we were just sitting there passively, you know, we were spending time in prayer and we were spending time discussing it and they would, they would come and go from those conversations.
But probably the thing that they saw that impacted them the most was that as things got really bad, we actually pressed in harder to, to have a relationship with our heavenly father. And, and I I'm hopeful that if you were to ask them the question now, and we've had the discussions, they would say, that's what they learn, because they're all they're walking in their faith.
Then they're doing business and, and, I'll just check this morning, our sons and is in Montana, he's got his own RV and he lives in travels in that, and he's on his way to glacier national park and our daughter's out in Colorado and living in the mountains and they're doing great. And I'm sure that sometime later today we'll communicate with both of them.
So, you know, was it tough? Yes. Are they okay now? I think so.
Rodney Olsen: The narrative that we all like to believe for the great American dream in your case, or the great Australian dream here, and we see it in the movies is that we see people who go through a terrible downturn. but then something happens. They ride it out and everything goes back to normal.
So according to that big narrative, you should now have your $15 million back, you're back in a huge home. Is that the case?
Tim Winders: My wife and I have been nomads, homeless nomad since 2013, Rodney. We spent some time in Australia, New Zealand briefly for a while too. And we currently live work, travel in an RV, and I will say this, we have more cash in the bank than we ever have in our lives.
We. We are at peace. We are at rest. We are walking in, I don't even know if the term's victory or what, you know, it's kind of a churchy word, but we, we actually are functioning at such a higher level. As far as peace goes. Than we ever have. So the 15 million in the bank, no remember that was 15 million in real estate at the time that wasn't liquid, we have more cash liquid than we ever have and I'll, and I'll tell you why I'll give you the, the lesson learned. We were doing extremely well, you know, four or five and six, but every time we had an increase in our revenue or wealth, We also increased our lifestyle to match it and coming out of what we did in 2013, where we became homeless, we use the word nomads.
It just sounds better, but we were homeless. We made, we purposed that as a dollar came in. That we would live off of a minuscule percentage of that dollar. And the rest of the dollar would go towards some giving that we like to do. We would go towards some accounts that we would set aside for our children.
It would go into investments. It would go into just having a boatload of cash sitting there. So as our finances increased and they have. We kept doing that. And so. So the answer to your question is exterior someone looking in might go, well, they don't live in the big house. They don't drive the cars, but we probably are living a lifestyle that many would envy because we go where we want to go.
We do what we want to do and money doesn't rule any of our decisions.
Rodney Olsen: It's extremely counter-cultural. We are told that we're going to be judged by what people can see and yet you're talking about something that's very different and yet there's a peacefulness that, that most of those people who are grasping for those things don't have, do you realize how counter-cultural that is?
Tim Winders: I not only realize it, I embrace it and pursue it and I don't want to say I take pride in it, but in many ways I get energy knowing that I'm observing the masses and doing the opposite, you know, on, on our, on our first season of our podcast, Rodney, I was, I felt led to share a lot of the details of this story and as, as that unfolded, and as you know, in the industry, you're in, you know, sometimes talking through things is almost one of the best ways of processing and, and even me communicating with you right here is just a great way of kind of, having some wisdom come forth because you like go, huh? I never thought about that.
Great question, Rodney. Thank you for asking that, but in light of what you just said, We are in a culture and let's call it first world. I've been to Australia. So I know it exists. I've been to New Zealand, I've traveled quite a good bit. And of course I was born and raised and lived most of my life in the United States.
We have a capitalistic society that is fueled by increase. If you and I are not increasing our consumption, the wheels of the economy can grind to a halt. And that's what we saw in Oh eight, the debt structure and all ground to a halt. That's what we may be seeing right now. If people don't get out after the pandemic and start spending money somehow some way, because the, the world can't function, that world can't function.
If you just have one big screen TV, It can't function. If you just have two big screen TVs, Rodney, it has to function. If you are putting a big screen TV in every room of the house, and if every year comes Superbowl or the, the championships of rugby or, or whatever it is that people watch, they need to go out and get a new one, and then they need to take the old one in stored in their garage or their storage facility.
That's what makes that world go around and so to get off of that cycle, that forced  consumption, it takes a lot of work  to not be constantly accumulating. It's the anti accumulation mindset. Some people will call it a centralism or mental minimalism or something like that. So, Rodney you're exactly right.
And, and once you get over that hump or that bubble, it is so enjoyable. not to be in that mode of, of being at the whims of the consumption accumulation society that most of us live in.
Rodney Olsen: There seems to be a difference that you're talking about of a lifestyle that will control someone and demand so much of someone and the sort of lifestyle you're living, where you dictate what happens and you dictate the lifestyle.
Tim Winders: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, you're talking about a control thing and a lot of the reasons that people get under stress is because they're out of control and, and you know, there there's a certain degree of, we don't control a lot of what goes on around us. You know, in many ways, Rodney, what we do is we kind of live our lives allowing other people to make decisions for us and when I say other people, if, if we're in a home and Joe and Sally that lived next door, pull in their driveway with a nice new, you know, smells great vehicle, we look out our windows. And even though we don't need a new vehicle, All of a sudden, we begin having this discussion of, well, you know, if Joe and Sally got a new vehicle, maybe we should get a new vehicle.
You know, not that we need one, we got one, two or three or four already in the driveway, but Joe and Sally got it. So, so what we end up doing is we attempt to impress people that really, we shouldn't be impressing. We need to just be thinking about what, what are we doing? I'll I'll, I'll tell you exactly the way my wife and I think if I could kind of go down a mini spiritual path here, we desire to be in a position to where if during our quiet time where we're just having conversations with the Lord.
He says, you know, I think that you guys need to travel to Perth, Australia to hang out with this new friend of yours, Rodney, that you talked to on this podcast, he's doing some things in ministry. He's doing cross country bike rides. He's, he's attempting to minister people there. I think y'all just need to go and see what you can do to help him.
We just want to be in a position to where, if that's what we feel in our heart, soul, spirit, whatever, then we can say, you know what? Let's go. And we can do that, that we don't have burdens that are weighing us down that keep us from doing those things. If that makes sense to you. I don't know if that makes any sense at all.
Rodney Olsen: That makes a whole lot of sense and I think a lot of people would resonate with that thinking. "I wish I had the opportunity to do that. I wish I had the freedom but I'm tied down by so many things." So it's, it's very refreshing. Now I want to reflect back. We talked earlier about how, when you were before the financial crash, you were guiding people and coaching people to amass, whatever wealth they could and then you found you didn't have anything to teach. Well, these days you're coaching again, I imagine the sort of coaching that you're providing for, for businesses, it looks very different to what it looked like way back then.
Tim Winders: Yes, it does and it's interesting story, you know, when, when you go through that type of we'll see, we'll call it a collapse. I don't, you know, I guess that's a good word for it. It can really rattle your, confidence and I've, I've probably especially pre Oh eight would be one that someone would say, Oh, look how confident in some ways, possibly arrogant, you know, that guy is. And, and that probably is one of the big things that has been adjusted.
But when you go through all of that, there is quite a bit of guilt and shame and sight, man. I don't think anybody, I don't want to put myself out there and share any more, but, but Rodney and about. You know, we, we kind of launched and started our nomad lifestyle in 2013, 2014, just traveling around about 2015.
I started getting phone calls and I wasn't marketing. I had no funnels. It wasn't like I even, I may have had a website up that still, you know, kind of told a little bit about who I was. I started getting phone calls from people and they were saying, Hey, listen, can you help us? Can you help us with our business?
We need some, somebody to coach us either from a leadership standpoint or marketing or help us grow the business. And I said, sure. And, and, and so I actually started getting people that were reaching out to me. That just wanted me to help, grow, expand, fix portions of their business. And he was a, these were in all industries, some were in real estate, Rodney, but others were just industries that I would not have a background in, but we know success, principles and principles that we use to grow businesses are, are somewhat common across a lot of industries.
And so I just started doing that. And, you know, I consider those blessings. I consider, as I was attempting to humble myself, I was just having some people reach out. So it started bringing financial reward into us. And, and that was a real blessing. And, and that continued to grow. And. There are still clients that came to me in 2015 that I'm still working with on a monthly basis.
So the ideal thing that I love to do Rodney is work with the leader of an organization. And when I say organization, I mean a company, a business or a ministry, because we also have a five Oh one C, three or nonprofit that we call it here in the United States. And, and I actually work with the leadership or the leadership teams, and I coach them one-on-one I just, this last week had a facilitated session for two days while I worked with them on their mission, vision values.
And now we're working strategic planning to implement all of those things and put them in place so that they can grow from wherever they are, to where we believe that they need to be. And that's really kind of my sweet spot of what I enjoy doing. I get a lot of energy from that. And I also think this is kind of interesting.
I think it relates to what you were asking. I think it was Mike Tyson that says the fight. Doesn't start until somebody gets punched in the nose. And any net, as far as business, as far as finances, as far as my perspective on life, I think I could safely say, I felt like I was punched in the nose pretty hard.
I was actually probably pummeled a little bit more than being punched in the nose, but you know, you pick yourself off the mat. And you kind of assess where you're at, make sure things aren't broken or there's not open wounds that the wounds are becoming scars that you could learn from. And then when you get beyond that and move beyond that, there's just a tremendous amount of wisdom from going through that punch in the nose, because what you're going to do is you're going to start allowing for.
Preventing that punch from occurring again. And then when you work with people, you can help them prevent that punch in the nose, also.
Rodney Olsen: You've touched a number of times on the spiritual side of this journey. We all know in relationships that sometimes there's an event that happens or someone who says something and we think, you're not the person I thought you were, and I have a sneaking suspicion that you suddenly thought, you are not the God. I thought you were. Tell us some of the lessons that have come out of the kind of God that you discovered through this.
Tim Winders:  I think the biggest lesson for me is that I would attempt to be guide in certain areas of my life and then some areas I would allow God to be God and so the biggest change you asked, what did I learn about God? I think what I'm doing is I'm twisting it and saying is that God was the same all during this process. It was really what was I allowing God to do in my life in certain areas is the change that occurred.
And, and I've done a deep study in the kingdom of God and Matthew six 33 is a great scripture for anyone who hasn't spent a lot of time around scripture. It's, Seek ye first, the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you. And those things are things of the world, like the possessions and finances and all that we talked about earlier.
And boy, I was really heavily involved with the things and I needed to start seeking that kingdom in all areas of my life. So that, so the shift that occurred, Rodney was really more in me and that I started allowing God to be God. I submitted to God in all areas and I'm hopeful now it's all areas. I mean, I may discover in the near future that there's still some areas that I've got to sacrifice and submit, but as best I can tell now, just with the piece that I see and the fruit and the way we're living, I'm doing much better.
I'll say it this way. I'm doing much better than I was doing back in Oh six, seven, eight leading into that downfall because we're just at a nice peaceful place. And the fruit that we're seeing from all of that is just really enjoyable to us. So, so I guess I kind of twisted on you. God, didn't change. I changed through all of that,
Rodney Olsen: Tim, it has been an absolute delight to speak to you and I know that there's so much more that we could explore over time, but we're gonna leave it there for the moment. But Tim, thank you so much for spending some time with us on Bleeding Daylight.
Tim Winders:  Thank you, Rodney. I've enjoyed the conversation.
Emily Olsen: Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

On Bleeding Daylight, the story that changed the lives of all those involved. 
We hear about Az Hamilton’s escape from a very dangerous situation in a country overtaken by rioting. What Az describes is a shared experience. Az and I lived this dangerous escape together. So this is also my story.
 
 
Just Motivation: http://www.justmotivation.com.au 
Az Speaks Podcast: https://anchor.fm/justmotivation
Compassion Australia: http://compassion.com.au
Compassion International: http://compassion.com 
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen: Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen: Something very different on Bleeding Daylight today. We’re going to hear the story of Az Hamilton’s escape from a very dangerous situation in a country overtaken by rioting.
 
The difference is that it’s a shared experience. Together with a handful of others, Az and I lived this dangerous escape together. So this is also my story.
 
What we share in this episode of Bleeding Daylight is a story that transformed both of our lives. The events we describe are real and set future directions for both of us.
 
Please listen and then share this very personal edition of Bleeding Daylight.
 
Rodney Olsen: I've known Az Hamilton since April of 2008. We shared a remarkable experience that we're going to explore together today. He's been reaching out and calling young people to a bigger life since he was still in his teens. These days, he works to inspire and empower young people. It's a pleasure to welcome Az Hamilton to Bleeding Daylight. Welcome Az.
 
Az Hamilton: Mate. Thanks so much for having me on your show.
 
Rodney Olsen: At the time we met, we were both working in radio. So tell me about those radio days for you. When did the radio bug bite?
 
Az Hamilton: You know, it was a funny thing, for me radio actually probably bit in my mid teens, my brother did radio announcing before me on a little community station in a place called Toowoomba in Queensland and he had this little radio show that he did with one of his friends from school. And I think ever since I can remember, I've saved every dollar for, you know, music for the the actual show. So we used to spend all our money on CDs and my brother would play them on his radio show.
 
So the second, my brother quit radio, cause he couldn't do it anymore, I literally went, can I have a go, I've got the CDs and that's actually how it started for me. So I'll literally rocked up with a box of CDs with no skill. And they said, well, we do need a show. You own all the music. Alright, you can have a go. So that was when I was 18 and I did about 10 years of radio from that point on, on and off. So yeah, it's, it's, it's sort of got launched out of my brother's passion and I used to listen to his show and go, Oh, I want to have a go of that.
 
Rodney Olsen: It's an interesting passion to have radio does bite fairly hard and as you say, you're involved in radio for a number of years, but alongside that you are spending time speaking to young people, even from that young age. Tell me a bit about that.
 
Az Hamilton: Well, actually, what was interesting, like I've always been passionate. I'm about the underdog. I don't know. I don't know what it is even when I was in school, like, uh, I went to a very, um, I suppose, a pretty straight Christian school, you know what I mean?
Like, you couldn't really go too far outside the box, or it was sort of very hard for you to fit into the community. And so I always had a heart for those guys and girls in the school community, even when I was in school, that kind of just didn't quite get it, uh, when it comes to faith and things like that.
 
So, and even the underdog. And so I've always been that way. And so when I got into radio, I did voluntary work, obviously in radio, you gotta to start voluntary. I'm sure you did too. And then when I got my first paid gig, I remember my very first week or so a guy walked in the back door of our radio station and I was star struck. I was like, Oh my gosh, like this guy, I can't believe it's him. It's him. And, um, the guy was, it was actually Sean Hart who played for the Brisbane Lions at the time he rocked in and he was just in the lunch room. And I remember going to my boss and saying, is that showing up? Why is Sean Hart here?
Cause I'm a mad AFL fan. He goes, yeah. And I said, why is he here? And he said, Oh, I forgot to tell you. A part of your job is you're going to be going into schools, with Sean Hart and doing a program on making good life choices, uh, every week. And I must admit there's a couple of things, went through my head at that stage.
 
And a lot of people don't know this about me, obviously being a speaker and a communicator for a living now, prior to that, I was actually extremely shy through school. I didn't do any public speaking. I didn't do any drama or anything in front of people. Radio was kind of an outlet, you know, no one had to see me.
 
So when I got into radio, I had no desire to be speaking publicly. I just wanted to talk in the studio, do my own thing. So my boss is now telling me, Oh, you're going to be doing sort of public speaking and doing communication stuff on a stage in front of students. It freaked me out. And it wasn't something that I thought I'd enjoy it all but over literally doing this program with Sean, probably for the next four to five years, like I just found my passion because I was sort of forced into something I'd never done before. So that's sort of where it all started and I've probably become more passionate about that kind of medium of communication then even, you know, obviously the radio sit behind a microphone sort of situation.
 
Rodney Olsen: So, how did it work for you as an 18 year old, still learning how to make your own life choices, and you're going into schools, telling young people how to make life choices?
 
Az Hamilton: You know, it's so funny. Cause I, if I had a dollar for every student that I talk to in schools, now they come and go, I want to do what you do and I say exactly the same thing to them. I go, well, you need to have a life story to begin with. I mean, Sean would do the program most days and he would, he would speak for about 45 minutes and it actually happened that. On this one day, I remember it was this primary school and these kids were just being so like, they were painful.
 
Like if you can imagine, Rodney, like the worst students ever anyway, Sean, takes some time out. He literally comes over to me. I'm just waiting for my five minute spiel at the end, to be honest. And he goes, do you have anything you can add to this story or something that can speak to these kids? And also interesting I just had a life story, like this little story that popped into my mind of when I was younger and something happened with me and my brother. And so I shared it. And the kids were completely enthralled by it. It's something I'd never shared before, completely enthralled and straight out of that show said to me, every time we do the program from now on, I want you to share that story.
 
And so it was kind of a very organic growth in my public speaking space. I from then on every week, I would share that story. And then it, as Sean's career kind of ended in football as the transition of him not being as relevant as a footballer, sort of turned out that I would do about 50% of the presentation and he would do 50% so it was very tag team.
 
And I did that yeah. For five years and yeah, really loved it. And obviously that sort of led into being a communicator, uh, organizations like Compassion and things like that. If you, if you ask my teachers, do you think he'll end up being a public speaker or communicater that they'd probably laugh at you to be honest.
 
Rodney Olsen: Our paths collided in 2008 in April. We met in Sydney where we were just about to jump on an airplane. Tell me a little bit about that story from your perspective.
 
Az Hamilton: Well for me, uh, I mean, that was about the fourth year of being involved with Compassion Australia, uh, sponsoring kids. It was through radio. I sponsored my first child, uh, reluctantly didn't, wasn't huge fan of giving up my money, but it kind of challenged me.
And then I went on a bit of a journey. So it was about four years into that whole, getting to know about Compassion. And then obviously we got invited as radio announces to go on this trip. For me, cause obviously being very young, I think I was 20, 22, 23. Like I'm going to be pretty honest. I was pretty unorganized.  and even up until about two weeks beforehand, I hadn't got my injections. I hadn't really, I didn't even know where Haiti was. We were going to travel. I genuinely didn't even know, Rodney. Like I remember. After being to the doctor to get my injections. When he was like saying, don't go, you're going to die.
 
Like you probably should cancel his trip. I looked up on a map where Haiti was because I hadn't, for me being a young bachelor, it was just like, Oh, I'm getting two weeks off work. This is pretty cool. I get to travel. I haven't done much international travel. So when I rocked up to Sydney and met you guys, to be totally honest, I actually had no expectation for this trip, except that I knew I was getting off of my show for a couple of weeks and I was getting to travel and you know, that was, that was pretty much me. And that's, that is probably as naive as you possibly can get before traveling to somewhere like Haiti. But that's, that's really where I was at.
 
Rodney Olsen: My most enduring memory was meeting you there. You were a young guy with very long dreadlocks turning up at the airport and we had just been given a couple of packs from the local Compassion representative they had a bit of water in there and some hand sanitizer and things like that and you turning up going through security. And they said, did you pack your bag? Do you know everything that's in your bag? And you said quite innocently and truthfully, no, I don't. I don't know that that was a good look for a young guy with dreads.
 
Az Hamilton: It's so funny you say that because I don't remember that, but what's great about that story is that we recently, Beck my wife and I recently had to talk to a young guy who traveled to the States who just did exactly the same thing. He got to the airport, they said, did you pack your bag?
 
He said, no, this, this is your bag. I said, no, it's my mother-in-law's bag. Cause he borrowed it for the trip. You know? Like, is this that young innocence of traveling for the first time? Yeah, I didn't know what they'd given me, Rodney. I don't even remember doing that, but I do remember getting patted down.
 
That does make sense. I did get taken to the next level of security once again, 22. Oh, I'm on a trip, whatever. No big, fortunately though that I feel like the world wasn't as crazy back then. I don't know. I just feel like maybe it wasn't as crazy as it would be now. Maybe I would have never got to Haiti if I did something like that now, but yeah. Thanks for reminding me of young Az.
 
Rodney Olsen: So you're talking about being disorganized. I do remember, of course we're going on a trip for a week and a half or whatever it was back then. And, and on that first day, we had slept over in Miami on the way off towards Haiti, and you said, Hey, let's stop at Kmart. I need to buy some shirts.
 
Az Hamilton: Yeah. Yep.  Absolutely. Well, because this is the thing I hadn't, as I told you this before. I didn't even know where I was traveling to. I'm not a very organized person. Like I remember, I remember getting calls from people at Compassion, saying, like, as I said, like two weeks out, like I should have had my, you know, immunizations or whatever.
It was all the different sort of, um, you know, shots and stuff like weeks earlier. Yeah. Now, have you had your shots? I'm like what shots they're like, have you read the email? I'm like what email? You know? And so this is very Az Hamilton in his early twenties, just very, ah, like I mean I had dreadlocks pretty as a real chiller.
 
And then I remember, I think we got to Miami and everyone was really stressed about the dress code in Haiti. They were like, you need to wear a button up shirt. I'm like, I'm a 22 year old bachelor I don't even own a button up shirt. And I bought some of the daggiest clothes I've ever owned because I needed to make sure that I fit in with the people.
 
Um, and then when I got there, I went, I could have just kept my old clothes. I'm pretty sure. Um, and I think went on, on, uh, on arrival back in Australia. I think I just went straight to the bin and dumped those clothes. I don't think I've ever worn them again, but thank you for reminding me of that. That that's really nice.
 
Rodney Olsen: I had my own moment in that store. If you remember, while you were picking out shirts, I headed straight down to the back of the store and found a bicycle that they had on sale and I rode that up and down the aisles so that I could say that I'd cycled in the U S so there you go.
 
Az Hamilton: See, that's absolute passion.
 
Rodney Olsen: There's a lot of fun leading into this trip, but once we get to Haiti, things start to change and I remember the very first morning after we had arrived in Haiti and had traveled up towards our hotel and all wide-eyed seeing what was going on. And we got up the next morning and there were these meetings going on. There were discussions happening. Tell me a little about that.
 
Az Hamilton: It's interesting how you have different people's perspectives of a trip. Let's see, for me, I remember sitting on the outside of them. There's was a lot of whispers, whisper, whisper what's going on, but it was a young guy. Oh yeah. Whatever. We're going, whatever.
I do remember them saying something about, we're not going to some region. Oh, we're going to change the area we're going to, there's been a little bit of unrest in the streets. I remember the word unrest was used a few times, a little bit of unrest. But don't worry a bit of unrest and like, and you've got to set this up for, for those that are listening.
Like when we, the things that stood out to me were, I don't know if you remember these things. The things that stood out to me was that when we rocked up to our hotel, there were people with weapons out the front, there was armed guards. And I thought that was quite unique to go to a hotel and there's guards.
 
And one of the guys from Compassion said, this is where you'll be staying. If you stay inside the walls, you should be safe. Then that was, for me, that was the stuff that stood out to me going all right, where are we again? Like, why are there people? Why are there guards? It's what, you know, this is a hotel. I don't, I don't really don't really comprehend this, but yeah, obviously the next day there are all these meetings about, there's been a bit of unrest we're going to a different project. Um, and so that was, that was it, you know, I was like, okay, no worries. Didn't even think much more of it. I don't know. What, what were you thinking? Oh, this is serious at that stage or were you just going, yeah. Oh yeah, no worries. Like I was just blasé.
 
Rodney Olsen: I really didn't know what was going on. I think a bit like you, I was kind of on the outside of those conversations. There was four of us from different radio stations in Australia had traveled to Haiti to see the work that Compassion was doing so that we could head back to Australia and be able to tell those stories. So of course we needed to go and visit the projects as you say, connected with local churches and, and you're right. They did use terms that would suggest that nothing much going on, but we'd better not go there and so we're thinking, okay, if, if that's the case, then, then we'll, we'll just sort of relax a bit and we'll go to a different place with no idea of what was about to unfold and I don't think we still had any idea until it really did begin to unfold. And maybe you've got a perspective on when you first realized that things weren't as they should be.
 
Az Hamilton: Every, everyone has a life story that changes the trajectory of their life. And I think that morning, that fateful morning where there's been some unrest in the streets, um, impacted me on multiple levels.
 
Everyone remembers things differently. I remember things like rocking up to the project. There was hundreds of kids jammed into this room. It was very basic, but the kids were so happy to see us and. You know, obviously I had my dreadlocks, the kids wanted to plait them and so that was pretty overwhelming.
 
I remember I'm feeling deeply personally that I think thinking to myself, man, I'm a rubbish human being. I complain about so much stuff. These kids.are really simple living, very basic, simple lives. And somehow they found joy in this moment. And, um, I remember we hung out at the school or we looked at some of the stuff that Compassion was doing.
 
That was all very impressive, and I don't know who told you Rodney in this time, but for me, I remember Guilbeau. He was one of the guys from Compassion came up to me, whispered in my ear, Az we need to go, go to the, go to the vehicles. We need to go. There's been some unrest we need to go now. That was the moments like, Oh, okay, sure. And I remember when he was sort of old sort of bye kids and we found ourselves in that vehicle. So I don't know how you were in that pro what were you doing or thinking, how did you even find out we had to leave? Did you have a whisper in the ear or was it sort of like you just followed everyone else? What was going on for you?
 
Rodney Olsen: I distinctly remember, we were told that we would have opportunity we're there as radio people, we needed to record interviews and so we had our recording devices. We'd interviewed some of them kids through a translator. And we were told that some of the parents were going to turn up and that when they turned up that we could interview them too, to let them tell us what the impact of Compassion on their family was and yet parents were turning up, taking kids straight away, turning up, taking kids straight away. And I remember them saying, ah look, they, they wanting to take their children home. They feel safer there. And we realized that something was not right. And then we spent a fair bit of time just in the office talking over what happens in the program rather than just spending time out there with the kids and, and then they said, yeah, we need to go.
 
Az Hamilton: Isn't that incredible that you remember that? Because I remember being in the office. But I don't remember anything about the parents rocking up or any of that stuff. Isn't that insane? I was probably so caught up in hanging out with the kids and knowing me being who I was back then, you know, very, whatever, pretty chilled, you were there on mission to make sure you could get as much radio as possible. Whereas I was just, they're probably thinking, I'm just taking this in.
 
Rodney Olsen: Make no mistake. I thought I was going on an adventure. This is something that, that has radically transformed my life as it has for you. And yet I was thinking here I am, I'm I'm on an adventure and yes, I needed to, to gather the audio and gather the stories and I had that mindset, but I was there for an adventure too and none of us were expecting what then happened.
 
Az Hamilton: No, and, and once, once again, I remember we got to the point where we had to leave and the two, four wheel drive vehicles. I do remember that I was in the vehicle I'm pretty sure I was in one of the vehicles that was a ute styled tray kind of four wheel drive, and we had another vehicle go ahead of us. It's a bit of a blur this next bit for me, because I think I'm trying to put timelines on what happened when I do remember we were driving down, um, heading towards where we'd come from and I remember people from the local community coming out of their sort of side alleys and out of their homes sort of just pleading with our driver, go back, go back. It's not safe. And you can see, you can see on their faces that, uh, this is not good. This is something's not right. And we didn't really know what was going on. Obviously I think the Compassion staff were trying to protect us from as much as they could, like try to keep us calm.
 
And they did an amazing job because I remember our drivers turned around at one point and went in a different direction. And then I remember going down that direction and then it happened again. I do remember, uh, the driver and he's like, no worries. We'll find another way. We'll go to the office.
 
And it was very much like, okay, we're changing all our plans. We're going to take you to the Compassion office in the middle of town. It's going to be safer there. That's when everything just sort of got out of hand and crazy. Is that, how you remember what, what was going on and how do you remember that exact same sort of process of getting from this project into town, in the heart of what we're about to see?
 
Rodney Olsen: I believe we were at trying to head back to the hotel. They had decided that rather than visiting another program, which was originally on the agenda, that it was safer to just go back to the hotel but in the meantime, as you say, we changed direction and, and streets that we'd gone down before now had barricades and, and it was just not safe. And as we turned onto that main street, that would have led us to the hotel. That's when I remember people running down towards where we were, uh, with fear in their faces saying, do not go up there. And that's when we went through the gates of the Compassion office and went inside and then things got real.
 
Az Hamilton: What I remember is getting to that main point before the people were running at us and we were on that main road in the heart of town. It was like the main street of Port au Prince and there was no one around, it was like, it looked like a bomb had gone off. I don't know if you remember, um, just like the burnt rubbish up the sides of the roads. Cause for me instantly, as soon as we hit that main road, I felt like I was in some kind of movie reel.
It felt like something I'd never seen, it was like, this is not real because there was fires and it felt eerily quiet where we were driving. And I remember Edouardo just slamming on the accelerator, like whiplash in the back, like just takes off. And yeah we landed probably a couple of minutes later, you know, now idling out the front of those big metal gates of Compassion and as you just mentioned, people running at us saying, you can't go further down. And I also remember there was a group of guys that had machetes that ran up behind our vehicle and they stole some stuff out of the back of the tray, I think it was like some drinks or soft drinks or, um, or some water bottles, whatever.
 
And that is sort of took off and we will all just waiting for these gates to open. I remember it seemed like an eternity. I know that one other guy in the car, one of the other announcers, he was really emotional because he could see what was coming towards us from down this main road and I don't know if you remember it clear as I do, just sort of seeing a mob of people waiting on the other end of the road, coming towards us. Like they were in some kind of march or riot or something, and we're sitting in the car, we can't move because the Compassion staff they'd already shut these gates, cause they knew it was coming and we're kind of calling them and saying, let us in and they're trying to move cars around and it was just one of those very time stands still, but everything's moving at a very rapid pace. Uh, and as the, the gates open, I remember we went in, shut the gates really quickly, and all I remember was, come with us, be very quiet and it was just very much about it like, just move fast and we just follow the staff into these office buildings and that sort of thing. What I remember to that point. What do you remember from that? Like that these are the points that sort of stick to my, my memory that I can play over in the mind. You know, you see it over and over and over again.
 
And it's sort of seared to the memory bank, but what was, what was the memories in that moment for you?
 
Rodney Olsen: Well, certainly as I mentioned, those people running down the street towards us with, with fear in their faces and that was because there was that group, as you mentioned, that was further up the street coming down and so they were wanting to get out of their way and they were warning us to be away as well,  and that's when we did get through those gates eventually and went upstairs and then we stood at a very high window, which seemed to be untouchable for us, but we were at a very high window and started peering out and seeing some of those people come down the street. Some of them were with bits of wood and other instruments,
 
Az Hamilton: Metal pipes.
 
Rodney Olsen: Metal poles and all sorts of things.
 
Az Hamilton: All sorts of weaponry that they could find, whether it be a machete. Um, I don't think there was a lot of guns. It was more just like, what do I pick up? And I'm just trashing and stuff. And this is at this for me is definitely, let's say that, you know, you're, you're memories are connected to emotions. My emotions were at all time high. I remember peeking through the blinds cause we were, we were peeking through the blinds. We're very high up. In an office building. And I remember feeling exactly the same as you. We're safe now we're in this office. As long as we stay here, we'll be fine. You know, they can't see us. Uh, and it was like clockwork.
 
It was a very surreal experience like clockwork, few hundred, maybe a thousand people marching through the streets, sort of past our building and they kept on sort of walking past and there was screaming something that were chanting something and if anything was in their way they were breaking it or smashing it.
 
And for me, the most defining moment is that at one stage, these guys had gone past our building and I must admit, I felt a sense of relief that they've passed. They're gone. We we've, we've dodged this bullet in a sense. And then like for me, the worst possible thing happens. I remember there was a rioter who passed our building, who was just part of this, you know, riot protest and I reckon he was about 19 years of age, 20 years of age, he was only a young Haitian guy. And I remember him stopping in the middle of the road and just looking back at our building, like looking up at him and always standing directly next to a garden.
 
And Dan. Uh, who is from Sydney. And if you've ever had one of these moments where you lock eyes with someone, you know, you just get eye contact with someone and you're like, Oh my gosh, I can see it like this. But you know what I'm talking about, Rodney, right? You, you see someone, it doesn't matter if you wanted to get eye contact, but if you lock eyes, there's just a moment of, we we've connected.
 
We now know each other and I remember locking eyes with this guy. And I remember literally like in a sheer moment of panic saying to Dan, and this is the succession of how I remember things. I remember saying to Dan, Dan, they can see us. Which was something that I didn't think was possible how high we were.
 
And Dan was a very level headed guy and he's like, Az we're pretty high up, I don't think they can see us from down there, but I'm sure I was locking eyes with this guy, unless he's looking past me. He was one of those, you wave to someone and they're actually waving at the person behind you. But I remember feeling like we know he can, they can see us right now.
And Dan kept trying to reassure me that we're pretty high up Az it's not that bad. And then it was within a split second or two. One of the Compassion staff members says it's probably not safe to be near the glass. Let's go to another room. It was this sort of just, maybe we'll move into another room.
 
And as we turned around, that's when everything just went pear shaped I remember the massive explosion in the room, glass just shattering and we've all hit the deck. Do you remember that?
 
Rodney Olsen: I do remember where we were reminded. Hey, look, it's probably not safe to be there step back. And it was just as we stepped back that there was this huge sound.
Now I don't know what you thought it was in the moment because I still can't be sure what I thought of in the moment what it was, but I know that certainly some in the room thought it was a gunshot, but we didn't know, but everyone dropped to the ground as glass started to shatter around the room, we later found out it wasn't a gunshot, but it was still pretty frightening.
 
Az Hamilton: Actually. I wish I had it, but I had an old camera. And I remember going back into that room just before he left. And we'll get to that later to take photos, all the glass all over the floor. Um, and yeah, it'd been rocks had come smashing through the windows and they just completely obliterated, um, one of the entire front windows, unfortunately, that camera in transit disappeared.
 
So I had no, no proof of that, but I remember thinking this, I think, did we get shot at what was going on since that glass here? And we were on the ground, it was, it was panic stations. I mean, the staff were like, get up, go. And we were running through the back of these, um this office block. And we found ourselves, bolt locking a door into a small office where the staff were now telling us the people have seen us and we're not sure if they'll turn on our building. We've got I remember one computer in that room. Do you remember one? I can only remember seeing one computer. You can write an email to someone you love, and that was that it was just such a terrifying but definitive moment of this is real like you, gotta write something to someone you love. This might be the last thing that you write but the people have definitely seen us and we don't know what that mob is going to do outside. Whether they're going to try and take down a gate, come into our building, but now we're just locked in a room and, um, we're going to do our thing.
 
Rodney Olsen: It was a very scary moment, as you say, and we're, we're in a back room. And for part of that, we had some local Compassion people that were with us, but most of them were off in another room room trying to sort out what it was that they thought that we should do. What was that that maybe needed to be done to, to secure our safety for not just for us, but for everyone there. Maybe at this point, because we've, we've talked about there being, rioting people and all the rest, maybe you can give us a bit of an understanding of, of why there were riots in the street.
 
Az Hamilton: It's so interesting. Obviously we got out and that's a whole, that's a whole ‘nother story. Um, but I do remember we were being evacuated. We're waiting the airport asking questions. Cause like you Rodney, it like that was, they were chanting in their own language.
 
Like they were saying something over and over and they were yelling and screaming. I remember watching on the news, seeing the president pleading with the people, please calm down. What had happened was we got explained to us, what had happened was the food prices have gone through the roof on this little Island called Haiti and it's only a couple of hours away from Miami on a flight. So it's not far at all because the food price has gone through the roof. And the cost of living had gone up and they were earning the equivalent of what two American dollars a day. There was a massive food shortage and the people were, rioting was literally chanting somebody help us. Our children are dying as stomachs feel like, I remember this statement when they told us what they were saying, one of the statements was as stomachs feel like they're being eaten by acid. Our stomachs, feel like they're being eaten by acid. Please help us. It was only after we got out of Haiti I went and did a lot more research on what they meant by that and throughout so many of the rural communities, kids were known to eat these mud pies, which were literally just soil mixed with sugar and oil dried in the sun and you can still look this stuff up it's just full on and they were like mud pies and the kids would eat them. The parents would say, eat this at least your stomach will feel full. And I think the stat back then was something like one in six children on the island wouldn't even make it to their fifth birthday, and I think the nightmare of Haiti for these people became extremely real for me in that sort of 24 hour evacuation process. And it changed me.
 
Rodney Olsen: This is in the setting of 2008. It's the time of the global financial crisis, which as you say, raises the price of even the most basics of food. So it was the global food crisis at that time. And this is what the people were rioting about. They couldn't feed their children and having to eat mud because they wanted to put something in their kid's stomach, but they had nothing to give them and I guess, you know, like you, it was one of those things that was a defining moment where I decided I've got to do something about this. Now you mentioned that we've got to the airport and this is some of the discussion that we're having, but that trip to the airport, this is the following morning we'd been in the Compassion office. The rock had come through the window. Finally, the streets were calm. We made our way back to the hotel. And as we're going with seeing all these buildings that had been absolutely destroyed and looted by people, just looking for food for their families, spent a night at the hotel and then there was the trip to the airport.
 
Az Hamilton: This is the thing about this trip. Even little memories. I just got, it reminds me we would get back to the hotel, which was crazy in itself. I remember the radio station from Brisbane, my boss calling me getting through, calling me and saying, can we send in helicopters?
 
How do we get you out? And like, you don't understand. Cause on the news that night, they were canceling all flights in and out of Haiti. There was all this sort of discussion. We don't even know if we can get a flight tomorrow. So it was really interesting. And I do remember them saying we're going to leave super early in the morning because when it comes to a community like this, often throughout the day, the riots and the protests get larger and larger.
 
Like that's what happens as the people kind of keep on coming together. So if we can get away early, we should be able to avoid the mob, get you to the airport. There was one point out that they were, you know, trying to get us on. And that was the plan. And I remember leaving early and actually seeing the other was very positive, same peaceful and quiet in the streets.
 
It just seemed like, yeah, we're going to be, we'll be able to get to the airport. And then in a matter of minutes, it happens again, we are confronted by a bunch of people running it at car, and they're saying, you can't go through there. Uh, the roads being blocked off, further down the road. It's not safe. Our driver, Eduardo is once again, trying to keep spirits up. No worries. Well, no, we'll go back to the hotel. And I remember we turned around and we were headed it. Must've been half an hour period of time. We're heading back towards the hotel. Cause I think they sort of went let's just abandon getting to the airport at this time.
But the problem was at the other end of this main period of road they had barricaded that end as well. So we we'd found ourselves caught between two of these riots or two of these barricaded protests, which were just highly dangerous. Cause I don't know if you remember in the news, I mean, people were being killed in the streets as well.
 
The day before, as you said, everything was being obliterated. And then, you know, I remember Eduardo saying, no worries. We'll find another way. Like he was so, it's amazing how some people just have the ability to go. I know my reality, but I'm just going to stay positive. Cause these people just need to get out and I'm going to find a way.
 
And so we are now finding ourselves, uh, driving down a part of the city or through an area in the city that probably, you know, you normally wouldn't go. And in this sort of slum sort of area and I remember we're weaving through these little roads and it was just getting more and more congested with people.
 
And those people sort of peer into our vehicles getting closer up to the vehicles until it got to a point where, we're in the heart of the slum. And they're saying, I just remember the, the words are sort of broken English, it was like, no way out. No way out. And that was that's the moment probably for me in this trip at the age of 23, 24 or whatever I was, can't remember somewhere around that, that I'm genuinely thinking to myself, This is the day that I die. Like this is it and that's where I was at at that point.
 
Rodney Olsen: It's interesting those times and the memories that they bring back. I do recall sitting in the car thinking that if this all goes as wrong, as it's likely to go, if the doors of the car happened to it to open, and I was looking around for places that we could run to and then slam ourselves behind these  metal gates in, in these different places and trying to find a way, how can we stay safe? And I remember, and you probably remember this too, where we were in a place where the cars just had to stop, because there were so many people around us and there was a guy with a metal bar and he was trying to incite the crowd to actually attack us until someone, and we only have this translated to us afterwards, but someone in the crowd, looked at the vehicle pointed to the Compassion logo on the side and said, wait, they're from Compassion,
 
Az Hamilton: They help the children. .
 
Rodney Olsen: They help out, they help our kids let them go. And that's the only reason we're still alive.
 
Az Hamilton: It's actually crazy. I do remember that guy. I remember being terrified by the fact that there was a real sense of let's overthrow these vehicles and the good reason for it. So I think we had two vehicles full of, you know, these, these Aussies that had money, uh, had equipment that was worth money. Uh, and you've got an absolute desperate situation.
So we were, we were an option to maybe be a solution for a few families to survive a little bit longer by maybe removing us from the picture and the first vehicle we got to this barricade. And there was, yeah, there was all these sort of like militant sort of guys that were arguing about letting us through.
 
And you must've been in the second vehicle, I reckon because the second vehicle got stopped and it was at that point. They let a second vehicle through because they help the children. I remember the first this vehicle got through somehow and they were waiting for us to come through and that's when there was the sort of overthrow of the people saying, no, don't let them through the other vehicle can go and whether it was, I don't know what was the reasoning for it. And then there was some, has someone in the crowd identified that work with Compassion. They help the children let them through and it was like the doors opened again, for us to get through and get out. And I just remember waiting for our vehicle to go through.
 
I think I thought we were going to get out of this. We're going to, we're going to see, um, you know, some opportunity to get through this crowd. Cause it was such a thick crowd surrounding our vehicles. And it was just because of this one person, this one guy who somehow convinced the crowd, let them through, let them through.
And I remember the picture of the people just opening up, like, like the road, just opening up and having a vivid feeling and a vivid thought process. It's like seeing the Red Sea part, but with people so that we could drive through and we drove through this crowd of people and got to the other side side of the sort of embankment.
 
Um, and it sort of opened up from that point. I remember clearly having an image of this small child on the other side of the scene back then looking out because everything actually, everything is just in slow-mo it's it kinda doesn't it doesn't add up. It's it's kind of, this is this really happening and I think, cause it's happening in real time and it's all happening so quickly.
 
You're trying to process, how is this happening and why is this happening? And it's such an interesting experience, but I just remember, like, it was almost like my whole life pause on the other side of this embankment, as that cars were getting ready to move forward again. And I remember looking to the right of the vehicle and seeing this little girl at the top of, of rubbish.
 
Like she must've been three or four. And it was this huge pile of rubbish, like bigger than houses. It was just, this mound of rubbish is a rubbish tip and she had a stick that was attached to a piece of plastic bag and she'd made her own kind of self-made kite and she's just waving in the air and she's just giggling, like she's just giggling and just full of joy.
She's watching this piece of plastic, just sort of taking off in the wind on the top of a rubbish pile, this memory of this kid, it just seered into my memory that here we are, this crazy situation's going on all around us. And there's this little kid somehow in the mess. And in most manic situations has found her own place of play.
 
And has found her own place of escape with something that she's created out of rubbish. And I know that's just a bit of a weird tangent to take but I remember so clearly, because it kind of just hit me to the core of my being about what am I complaining about? Like, who am I to be this guy from Australia?
 
Like, even though in my mess, in that time of like survival, I was still like, oh my gosh. This is daily life.
 
Rodney Olsen: One of the people that we had traveling with us was the Vice President of Compassion for that area and he originally was from Haiti and I remember him getting out of the vehicle and trying to find a way ahead and that was going to be difficult because there were people everywhere. As you say that the roads or tracks really, they were, uh, were getting narrower and he actually found someone who was prepared to show us a way. And of course at that stage, we didn't know whether that was taking us to some of his friends around the corner who were then going to attack and rob, or whether he actually was leading us out of there.
 
But we were told we had no choice. We had to move because staying where we were was dangerous. So we didn't know whether we were going to another danger. Or whether this was something that is going to see us to safety and I remember we kept going slowly and till we finally turned a corner and there was a crew cab ute and there were people on the back of that crew cab ute with weapons, but they were police. And this gentleman who, uh, worked for Compassion, who was originally from Haiti the image that is seared into my mind is him putting his hands up. He was a very big gentleman and there he is with his arms outstretched, way up in the air, walking towards these police very slowly so that they could see had no ill intent. Uh, he explained the situation to them of, of what was going on and it was then that they agreed to give us an armed escort to the airport. Again, it was one of those defining moments. Like I said before of, of where we were told they help our kids let them go and this was another one of those ones that kept us alive is that the police agreed that they would escort us out of that dangerous situation and get us to the airport.
 
Az Hamilton: I remember exactly the same thing. I remember, um, seeing the Compassion staff member, having his hands in the air and we're just like, what are you doing?
Cause he just left us in the car. I'm going to go and do this. And yeah. Being escorted to the airport with people, with their weapons out. Are, do you remember? Well, one of the females on the trip, um, wanted to get video footage or take photos in this moment. Cause she was just like, Oh, we need to get proof of this.
 
You know? And the rest of the guys in our car were like, put the camera down. This is not the time. Like we're, we just need to somehow get to the airport. Like let's not try and cause any more issues, and that's, it's quite interesting arriving at the airport. I remember getting dropped off and we went into the airport and watching on the news, how the United Nations base next door to the airport was deploying all their heavy artillery.
 
They were rolling out tanks and. All sorts of heavy artillery vehicles just to try and keep the peace. Um, you know, the president was on the TV trying to, to calm people down. And we, I suppose for the next few hours just had to, uh, navigate this idea of what's going on outside and are the mobs going to around the airport?
 
Are we actually going to be safe? Is there going to be a flight coming in? And, uh, yeah, that's for me, you know, over those next few hours, just waiting for this flight that was going to somehow get us out of this country. Uh, super bizarre time. waiting.
 
Rodney Olsen: It was a strange time and eventually we did get out. So in the midst of this turmoil of people who are rioting, not because they want to bring violence on anyone, but just because they could not feed their families, because they did not have enough to put food in the stomach of their children and they're, they're saying someone, listen, please, someone listen and help us. And we finally flew out of there. And, and I guess the memory for me is going down that runway, looking out the window, seeing fires burning all the way around Port au Prince, the capital of Haiti, where there been barricades and riots and fire everywhere.
 
And then in a surreal moment, looking down in the grass, along the side of the runway, seeing kids playing soccer, and taking off, and this sense in which I felt finally we're safe, and at the same moment thinking, but there are 8 million people living in Haiti who are never going to afford a ticket to get out of this place.
 
They are trapped here, they're trapped into poverty and I think for me Az, that was the moment I said, I've got to do more to, to tell the story of these people so that they don't have to continue to live this way.
 
Az Hamilton: I had the same moment I had exactly the same moment. I remember flying out and then looking out the window of this plane.
 
I remember running on the tarmac just to get on the plane. I remember getting on the plane and we didn't do any of the safety checks. It was just like in and out so quick. It was like, we've got to get you out. I had this crazy overwhelming sense that when I go home, I need to be a voice for those kids who do not have a voice.
 
That was it. It was like, you need to do this. It was quite a fascinating thing when we got to Miami, I remember on, on landing, uh, my phone beeped and it was from my mom and my dad who actually in the States at the time, they finally got my email about how. I was locked in a room at the Compassion office and we might not get out alive but I just want to, you know, let you know what's going on outside there's rioting and so they were writing like freaking out, not sure what was going on and I remember writing back to mom and mom and saying, hi mom, we're safe  we're back in Miami. Um, and I remember saying to her. Um, I don't think I'll be, I think I need to go and speak for these kids. Um, and I, I think I need to quit radio.
 
I think I need a, I'm just so convicted by this. I don't know if I can go back to just interviewing like musos and celebrities, whatever that is. I think maybe I just, I just need to be a voice for these kids. And my mom was like, you know, very motherly. Like she's like, just don't do anything stupid.
 
You're just emotional because I've been building a radio show. I was doing something that I loved and I was doing, I think, quite well at it. And it was, it was just for my mom being a mom, probably thinking, okay, you're just emotional and not knowing the full extent of what was going on. I think I had good reasons.
 
It'd be like, just relax. And that was it for me. It completely changed me. I came back. I do want to say that I remember being back, we'd been back for a week or so. And one of, one of the girls from Compassion Newcastle actually came up to the radio station to debrief and she wanted to put on a morning tea and say, thank you.
 
And I want to maybe share a bit and she wanted to share. And she shared on that day about the moment that we were caught in the, in the backstreets of the slum where they were saying there's no way out and she said, when we're in Compassion in Newcastle, we got a text from a DJ who was sort of the head of the team that took us over there.
 
And he had messaged and said, you need to pray. You need to pray for us now. We may not get out of this one and, you know, DJ's been to on, on like dozens of trips all over the globe. And he. Um, had personally felt that this, this one we may not get out of. And so she's sharing this experience, um, from there and like, just on the Compassion in the office kind of experience of this team and she starts sharing and she said, you know, we started praying for your protection and we started praying for you instantly.
 
Like we're talking while we're still in the slum. Like in that moment where we can't get out, they're praying. And she said, that a lady in the office stood up on a chair and prayed God part, the people like the Red Sea and everything in me just went, that's exactly what happened. That's what I saw. That's the revelation I had when the people parted.
And we went through, I just was like, what, what did you just say? And it was for me, just a moment of our living, God answering a prayer. In real time on the other side of the world. And for me, because of that revelation and that clarity of God working and moving in that moment, it just struck home as a core to my own heart again, that no, no, this is not me being crazy.
 
I need to go and be a voice for these kids. Like this is not just me being emotional, experiencing something that, you know, it's it's you experiencing some posttraumatic. Um, stuff know this, this is, this is a conviction that there there's some kids starving to death on an Island, and no one knows about them and no one seems to care and I need to be a voice for that.
So it wasn't long after I over the next three or four weeks, I tried to fit that call into my radio career. I tried to use that experience and go, I can do it through radio, but I knew my time was up. And so I think it must've been about four weeks after I went into my boss and said, here's my resignation.
 
I need to go and share with teenagers about the world they live in and how they can actually change things for the better for kids that are in need. And my boss was like, do you have a job lined up? I'm like, Nope. I just have to do it. So I quit with no, you know what that would look like. It was pretty amazing.
 
I ended up being able to step into another job within 24 hours in a different ministry space was able to volunteer with Compassion and over that next nine months, Compassion opened up a role actually created a role for me to be a youth communicator for them, for the country and sort of build some youth product.
 
And so I just look at that and I just go, yup, life defining moments and some people say do you want to go back to Haiti? Would you go back and I would. There's something about Haiti. It has my heart. I would go back and even though it's crazy, there's something about that place. That has captivated me the last 12 years.
 
And, uh, I just went on mission for that next, I dunno, three to five years with  three years with Compassion, to be a voice for those kids. And then post Compassion when I started my own thing in schools, working with teenagers, and just challenging young people to have a heart of thankfulness, a heart to be generous and in the right time, to reach the needs of those around them, with their generosity, with their love, with their kindness, uh, with the empathy and, and that's what I'm still doing today. And I suppose the, the foundation of it was that trip with you.
 
Rodney Olsen: It certainly was, was an interesting trip and I did come back and worked in radio for another five years, but used that opportunity to, to speak out on behalf of Compassion and behalf of children, wherever possible until six and a half years ago, I actually started working for Compassion and that's where I am these days due to that, that absolutely life changing experience that we had. You've touched on there, the work that you're now doing with the, the organization that you founded and that you run called Just Motivation. Tell me a little bit more about that.
 
Az Hamilton: Yeah. So as I said, I mentioned, uh, worked with Compassion for three years in their youth department. And unfortunately with the global financial crisis has actually caught up to Compassion back then and had to lay off a bunch of staff, those, um, redundancies that happened, and we were about to launch a national product for youth and I'd worked very hard on it.
 
Um, and just in a short period of time, that just obviously that, that door shut for me. And so I actually found myself in 2011 having to finish up work and I sat down for, in any cafe for about six weeks. Um, just asking, God, God, what do you want me to do with my life? Like, what is it that you want me to do?
 
Because I don't think it's radio. I do believe that social justice is heart of helping the needy and the poor. That's your heart. Educating young people on the world that we live in is important. I love working with teenagers. And so over this period, I sat down, it was, it was just a combination of going with social justice, a passion of mine and motivating.
 
So Just Motivation kind of came out of this. This is my heart. And I started sort of running programs mainly just on those sorts of topics and obviously that story was one of those things. Uh, and speaking schools, I started off with a program that was just like a 45 minute session. Just sharing that story and, and giving some really practical outworkings of how we can actually change our world as young people.
 
And then that sort of developed into full day leadership and faith sessions. So this year is my ninth year I spend my time with, working with teenagers challenging their hearts towards the things that I believe God's heart is. And we have a lot of fun. I use a lot of humor and we do big group activities, and on an average day work with anywhere between 102 hundred students.
 
And I'll just work with that group by myself running this program. Yeah, for me, I just want to challenge young people to use the giftings and the passions that they have in their lives to impact others in a positive way. And, uh, absolutely love it. Absolutely love it. So yeah. Obviously started a podcast as well the Az Speaks Podcast for teenagers as well on a weekly basis. Yeah, absolutely love it.
 
Rodney Olsen: Do you ever cast your mind to where life would be if you hadn't had that, that trip to Haiti?
 
Az Hamilton: Yeah. I look back at a lot of things in my life that I, just go God's so kind to me, uh, I feel like it's interesting, you know how some people, so they just have a natural ability just to go on life's journey and they don't need like shock moments they don' t need, like really like a punch in the face to get your attention. Unfortunately, with me, I kind of find that God has to get my attention by doing the slap to the face, wake up. Hi, this is where I need to take you. And I've just been really fortunate that there's been these core moments in my life that have led me to where I am.
 
I think about moments like sponsoring my first child like that. It was a definitive moment. I think about trips like that to Haiti. There's how many of those sort of stories that have lead me to, where I am? And I do, I do sometimes think if anything, with the Haiti trip, I do think this, and I don't know if you ever thought this, imagine if we went to Haiti and it was just a very stock standard, uh, you know, we got to see the good work that Compassion does, which is incredible. And if you don't sponsor a child with Compassion, go and do it today. If you're just listening to this, just go and sponsor child, like is the greatest thing you can do.
Um, if we just got on a normal trip and yeah, we've met some great kids and we've met some great staff and we saw the great things that they were doing, helping those kids and then we got on a plane and came home. I wonder if the gravity of what Compassion is doing would have really hit like, and I'm so thankful for the trip that we got.
 
And it was a once in a lifetime trip and even for those leading the trip. They wouldn't have expected it. I don't think a trip has happened like it since. Um, so I am thankful I was on that trip. I get students ask me all the time. Like if you, if you had your chance again, to go on that trip again, would you do it?
 
And obviously you go, well, it'd be a bit crazy to put yourself in a dangerous position like that. But if I knew that the outcome was the same, absolutely. Like you would do it. Absolutely. Because. These things change you for the better. I think I'm a much better person, nicer person, kinder person, more empathetic person because of it.
And, um, yeah, I'm thankful for the experiences that I've had, even in my younger, like young years, the life stuff that's happened to me because it does, it develops you and your character and the way you see the world. And I'm, I'm constantly, you know, growing. In those areas, but yet definitely do think back to those sort of things like a trip like that and go, yeah, um, I'm so fortunate that I was on that trip.
 
Rodney Olsen: Az I do look forward to seeing what are some of the other defining moments that God uses in your life from this point on and where that leads you because it sounds like it's been an incredible journey so far. So I'm gonna sort of keep that in mind as I  continue to watch your life and what happens in it, but I want to say a deep thank you for spending time with us today and sharing with us just a piece of your story. Thank you.
 
Az Hamilton: Thanks, Rodney. Really appreciate it.
 
Emily Olsen: Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 
 

Dave Ebert is someone who has turned comedy from something that masked his own pain, into something that brings healing for others, including women released from sex trafficking. In this episode of Bleeding Daylight, we get to explore a little of the inner conflicts that Dave has faced over the years and the way that life is now so very different for him.
 
 
Gifts for Glory Ministries
Speaking, Improv Performances and Coaching, and Podcast
www.gifts4glory.com 
www.facebook.com/gifts4glory 
dave@gifts4glory.com 
 
Well Versed Comedy - Improv Comedy Ministry 
www.wellversedcomedy.com 
www.facebook.com/wellversedcmdy 
improv@wellversedcomedy.com 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
Emily Olsen: Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen: It's almost a cliche, the comedian who is secretly battling depression, the person who makes everyone else laugh, but who is fighting their own inner struggles. Dave Ebert has a passion for comedy, but the laughs haven't always been easy for him. Today, we get to explore a little of the inner conflicts that Dave has faced over the years and the way that life is now so very different for him. Dave, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Dave Ebert: I thank you so much. I'm absolutely thrilled to do my first international interview.
Rodney Olsen: Now I know that your main comedy discipline, if I can put it like that is improv. So does that mean I'm going to have to be on my guard today?
Dave Ebert: Well, I am one to always throw something out.
I'm the master of one-liner. So every time I see an opportunity, I swing, they're not always going to be home runs, but, you know, you can't, you can't get a home run if you don't swing.
Rodney Olsen:  Absolutely. We're going to be talking about your comedy and a little while, and the amazing ways that you're using comedy to make a real difference for others.
But first, let's talk about some of those darker times. When did you really start to notice that what you were facing wasn't the normal ups and downs of life.
Dave Ebert:  For most of high school, I really battled with trying to find my self worth and trying to find my place, and why was I here? And, my dad was, very sick for most of my childhood.
He had served in the Vietnam war for the, for America. And, unfortunately caught the side effects of agent orange, which I'm not sure if your audience would know about that, but that was a chemical that the Americans used during the Vietnam war in the sixties that, caused a lot of genetic damage to the soldiers that were onsite. When he comes back from the war he's healthy young man and then within 20 years, he's fully disabled. He's unable to do the things that a man his age at that point should have done. So he didn't know how to handle that. as a young man growing up, I didn't know how to handle that. So there's a lot of conflict with my father on top of the normal teenage things.
And then my junior year in high school, 11th grade, I, was pursuing this girl and. she broke my heart and that, that was the moment it went from the normal ups and downs in the battles that I felt myself really like cross into this new threshold, where it went into depression where I was constantly looking, ah, for some kind of way to ease the pain, some kind of way to lighten the darkness.
But it would just always hung there. I never went to get it diagnosed. but all the telltale signs were there. I was always the class clown. So now that I was into this full depression, that humor was coming out is a way to defend myself and prevent anybody from knowing what was going on inside.
Because not only was I feeling bad, I was feeling bad about feeling bad. I was feeling. Guilty for allowing myself to feel that much darkness and for somebody that hasn't been through it, maybe it doesn't make sense. A lot of people think well just snap out of it, go for a walk or do this or that. But when you get to that darkness, any motivation to do the self help, that's actually beneficial, all that motivation goes away and you're just there in this dark pit. I was contemplating suicide on a regular basis. It was literally a day by day thing. If I could justify myself, I can make my life seem valuable enough to live another day I would. And that's where the humor was coming in was if I made somebody's day a little bit brighter, I made somebody laugh a little bit, then I could justify, okay.
Maybe there's a reason that I'm here, that I'm alive.
Rodney Olsen: And I'm guessing that the fact that you're using comedy as your way to cope and maybe put a smile on someone else's face. Doubles that issue of people not knowing that you're going through something because you're always laughing. You're always causing other people to laugh so there's no reason for them to be concerned.
Dave Ebert: Exactly. It was. It's a very, effective cloaking mechanism. It's a great way to hide severe depression, severe pain and to the untrained eye, you think, Oh, you know, Dave, you know, he's a great guy. He makes people laugh. He's always there to, to help people and try to brighten their day.
And it takes a trained eye and somebody that's got the ability to kind of pull back the layers and see, all right, there's something deeper than that issue. One of the things that when I address depression, suicidal tendencies, or thoughts in trying to raise awareness is look for the self deprecating humor, which was something that I did a lot and making fun of my weight because I'm not a small gentlemen, I'm way above 400 pounds. You know, being big has always been something that kind of defined me. That's actually a very good sign. If somebody is consistently tearing themselves down, find a time to pull them aside and say, Hey. Are you really okay.
But don't take the first answer because the first answer is always going to be the deflection. if you're really care about somebody in you're concerned that all the self harm, humor, the stuff that you're making fun of yourself, ask the second. And the third question, try to dig because when somebody is in that place where I was they're not going to give you the, the honest answer right off. It takes more than that first question of, are you okay? No. Are you really okay. You look at somebody that's international known Robin Williams. He was so good at putting smiles on other people's faces, but deep down he was struggling and he's a tragic loss to the world because his talent was so great but inside, he never, I don't think he ever really let anybody truly inside so that he could address the darkness that he was feeling.
Rodney Olsen:  So you're saying that you were trying to cover that depression, that you were feeling through comedy. Were there other ways that you tried to deal with the depression?
Dave Ebert: Even though I'm a larger guy? I would always try to play pickup basketball, get out of the house. I would try to be around people. And that was part of the humor thing is if I'm around people, even, even if it's playing pickup basketball, there's something about being in a community that I could find a way to either create opportunities for humor, or just have that comradery where if I'm running up and down the court, I'm not thinking about the weight and the darkness.
So I compensated by trying to be around people as much as possible. And then also the, the self-harming practice of eating consistently because food became a friend that I could go to. Food is kind of like the best friend that always gets you in trouble. the one that's always daring you to do the one thing that's crazy.
The one thing that's, you know, over the top. So it's one of those things where, you know, food became my best friend, but he was always getting me in trouble because. I developed an addiction and a habit of always going to food. You know, food kind of came, became my drug. Many people will turn to harder things. My drug was food, macaroni and cheese or cheeseburgers or different things like that.
Rodney Olsen: And that's, that's a lot more socially acceptable. Isn't it?
Dave Ebert:  Right. It is a, if you're a big guy and you eat and it's like, Oh, okay, he's a big guy. He eats, it takes people who are really, really close to you to say, Hey, you know, maybe four trips up to the buffet is a little bit much right.
Didn't you already have dessert. Why do you need another huge slice of pie? Those kinds of things. Yeah, it was that thing where I had that defense mechanism up so well that nobody got inside close enough to where they could see that all of these things were warning signs.
Rodney Olsen: And this started, as you say, in high school, how much further did it go? How long did this depression stay with you?
Dave Ebert: I finally kind of got out of the deepest recesses and the darkest places. in 2013. So we're talking from 1997, two a 2013. It was just a case where it didn't lift until I truly found a relationship and pursued a relationship with God.
Rodney Olsen: How do you go about finding a relationship with God? I mean, that sounds like an interesting turn of phrase. What does that actually mean and what did it mean for you?
Dave Ebert: As a Christian, I have the unique ability and the unique opportunity to have a actual relationship with the God of Christianity. It's a personal thing. It's not some mythical creature in the sky that I have to please in the Bible.
He clearly refers to himself as, as father. And that's the role that he wants to play to the father that, that takes joy in his kids. Now, how did I get there from depression? It's really funny because God was really a part of my life even when I didn't let him be a part of my life. you can look back at different places in my, in my life where it's like, wow, God really was there.
He, he was involved in my life. Yeah, throughout the depression, there were many times, where I took some silly risks that probably should have ended my life. There were times when I was driving a taxi for a railroad company and I would work driving 36 or 48 hours straight. That should have resulted in me not being here.
my diet and my, consistent consumption of energy drinks and things like that. That should have claimed my life by now. there are other things like I had taken a job at a radio station to be a DJ, to be an on air personality, introducing the music. Yeah. Really cool thing. And be famous and all this kind of stuff.
But a week into the job I got demoted and I got moved over to a smaller sister station where I wasn't on the air, but I was operating behind the scenes. But the interesting thing is what was a demotion and a hard thing for me was God's hand in just kind of instilling different things in me, different opportunities to learn about him because I went from a country radio station to a gospel station and, the gospel station that plays, Christian music, there are live preachers on the air all the time and so here I am feeling again, that depression, but I'm, I'm listening to all these messages about God and the whole time that I was depressed and upset and not really receiving it, my mind was still hearing it and still remembering the messages. He took, what was meant for bad in my demotion and my removal from the fun job, and he turned it for good because for those two years, I was learning about God and hearing about God constantly. so it, it's a really unique concept because no other faith that I know of has that close relationship where God is actually pursuing somebody. It's all about us trying to catch their favor or do something for them but God, the God of the Bible, the God of Jesus Christ, he's a God that wants a actual relationship as your father, and as my father, he consistently reached out to me to try to get me to turn around and realize that living in the dark hole, where I was in the depression and the pain that I was, it was not the best way, was not the way that he wanted me to live as my father.
He wanted to pull me out of that. But I had to realize, and I had to choose that there was a better way and the better way is to follow and seek God in that one on one close relationship that was made possible, because of the life of Jesus Christ. So when I say I started a relationship with, with God, it was because he had put so many things in my way to tell me that he wanted to be in a close relationship with me that I finally said, okay, God, I'm sorry I've missed it for so much. Here I am.
Rodney Olsen: There's an idea that if you are not living the way that God wants you to live in any way, shape or form, then you really need to get yourself straight before he's going to listen to you. We hear so often the message coming out of the church is that you're not good enough. You need to live up to a certain standard. Was, was that the experience for you? Did you have to get your life together before you started this relationship that you're talking about?
Dave Ebert: Oh, absolutely not. I was still a mess.
So sometimes God will flip the switch in your brain and if you're somebody that's suffering from depression, he'll flip a switch and heal you immediately 'cause he can do that because God created our human bodies. So he knows exactly what's needed to flip those switches. If you read the new Testament, Paul talks about a thorn in the flesh.
Sometimes we just have to live with certain things because God's going to still use that in your story. Paul, the greatest writer of the new Testament of the Bible, he still had a thorn in the flesh, something that ailed him, that God didn't heal, but he used it. so for me, when I started praying and started pursuing that relationship and trying to develop that communication with God, There wasn't this great moment of suddenly I was healed and taken away from depression.
It became a gradual process of healing. Oh. Where God was doing, was working on my heart to strengthen it, to grow it up. So I would never tell somebody to believe that you have to get everything right before you come to God. one of the greatest stories of how God saves how Jesus saves is the thief on the cross.
If anybody is familiar with that story, when Jesus was sacrificed and  was dying on the cross, next to him were two men. one was a thief that mocked Jesus and the other was, was a thief that said, Jesus, when you die, remember me. Now this thief was dying on the cross. He was paying a similar penalty that Jesus was in that moment for completely different reasons, but they were both dying and he didn't have his life together.
He didn't have to fix everything. He didn't have to go and repay that for the things that he'd stolen. He turned his life over in that moment and said, Jesus, remember me? When you go into your kingdom, were his words. Jesus, remember me when you pass on when you die and he didn't have his life together, he had no chance to.
Now that's not an encouragement for anybody to wait until they're at death's doorstep to suddenly remember Jesus, because you're not guaranteed that moment. But I would say that you don't have to get your life together. The idea that you have to fix everything before you go and find God. If you could fix everything on your own, why do you need God?
That's that's the lesson that I think the church needs to get out more is that God wants you to come as you are, and you don't have to change to win his love, cause you've already, he already loves you, but you'll change on the inside because of the love you have for him. For anybody that's ever had a dating or marriage relationship where you marry somebody because you've fallen in love with them.
There are any things that you do differently because you've fallen in love with them because we have that special relationship. When we're married. There are things that we stopped doing because we love this person that we're married to. We love somebody so much that we're willing to sacrifice some of the things that we think we want.
And that's the similar relationship that you can develop with God when you accept Jesus as your savior, like the thief on the cross did. It's not about fixing yourself. It's not about fixing your life. It's about just saying I'm a mess. I can't do this. I can't figure this out on my own. I, I try hard, but I can't get it.  right and it's just turning everything over and saying, Jesus, remember me in your kingdom? God forgive me. I'm broken. I'm a mess.
Rodney Olsen: You use there the analogy of a marriage and how we view relationships and I believe that it wasn't all that long after you started that relationship with God that your own marriage came along.
Dave Ebert:  Absolutely. One of the things that I didn't mention in my story up to this was, in 2006, I got married, my first marriage, and it was not built in a proper way as we were dating, we had made some mistakes and, she said that she was pregnant. So we kind of hurried a wedding. she lost the baby just before the, before the wedding, but everything was booked and we said, well, let's go for it where we believe that we're going to be together, so let's get married anyway. Biggest mistake of my life. we got married and immediately we came home from our honeymoon and things just started falling apart and at this point, neither my wife at that point, or me had really known who God was. So we know we had no source of trying to find a way to fix the marriage.
So it became fight after fight after fight and then suddenly just reawakened the depression in me. And we were married for four months to the day when we filed. We got married on August 26, 2006, filed for divorce, December 26, 2006. So the day after Christmas we're meeting at the courthouse to file for divorce. It was, it was excruciating because here was the depression coming back.
The, the voices in my head, they were telling me I'm not worth anything. They're like, see somebody promised to love you forever and they couldn't even make four months. And so, you know, all these things came back. And so that really fed into my depression for the remainder of that time. But once I finally found that relationship with God and I started reading the Bible, started to really pray.
That's when life turned around and I left. A small rural town in West Virginia, but I went from there to Chicago, which is completely different world, but I came to Chicago and within two years of moving here, I moved here in 2013 and in 2015, I got married to my wife, Bobbie, as I've grown closer to God, I've also grown closer to my wife because the relationships are so similar to have a successful relationship. There's gotta be vulnerability. You gotta be vulnerable and willing to pursue truth and not your personal truth, you know, intimacy and vulnerability. That's how you have a successful relationship that builds closeness and love and the ability to trust that the person you're with or in this, or in my case, the, the God that you're trusting.
That you know, that they've got your best at heart and that you can trust in them. You used to use comedy as a way to suppress that oppression. And really it was something that he'd what was going on underneath.
Rodney Olsen: You're using comedy in a very different way. Now tell us a little about that.
Dave Ebert: Absolutely. So when I moved back to Chicago to pursue opportunities, to use humor as a way to do much of what I was doing when I was depressed, using humor to make people's lives better, to brighten their day to encourage them. But instead of having it as a defense mechanism to hide where I was, which was exhausting now I'm using it as a way to try to invite people, to find their own relationship with God.
so we do clean comedy that's accepted, you know, that's accessible for people of all ages. we don't want families to feel excluded. So we love having kids come to the shows. We've even done shows for entire audiences of children. And it gets crazy because  we're built on audience suggestion and feedback.
So when you start asking for volunteers or ideas, you get 300 kids shouting. Some shouting the same thing. Some shouting outlandish things, but you get 300 kids just shouting. It's it's so much fun. Yeah. So doing comedy now is all about bringing people up. One of the things that I like to tell people is I used to use comedy to hide who I was. Now I use comedy as a way to reveal who he is and that he is God, because God is joy and light and love and he's eternal. He's bigger than what we see in the world so much is going on in the world, especially right now in America. There's just so much turmoil. We're in the middle of an election year, there's the virus thing that's been going on,  there's the, the racial climate that's just exploding right now. God's bigger than all that. God's going to outlast all of that and no matter how bad things get, I know, and I have a hope that. This is going to be the way it is forever. It's going to be painful now, but eternity is a really long time.
And eternity is longer than we could even understand as humans. When we make people laugh. We can kind of break through some of those walls that are built up by the world. there's walls that separate us between black and white or this race or this gender or, or this socioeconomic class, we can break through those walls and realize there's so much more that makes us similar, that makes us different.
Rodney Olsen: I believe that there's a special group of women that you've been teaching improv to as, as a way to, to help them to heal.
Dave Ebert:  If I don't do anything else with comedy, but I can do that. That's one of the things I'm most humbled and proud of, which is really kind of a interesting oxymoron that I could be both proud and humble, but it's really exciting.
I use improv as a way to, to improve the lives of women. Who've survived, sex trafficking. In America, you know, sometimes people in America think, wow, that's something that happens overseas that happens in Europe or Africa or wherever, but no right here in all throughout the world, every country has women and men and children that are caught up in this billion dollar industry.
It's on the most wealthy and powerful people and they're bought and sold like cattle for the purpose of sex trafficking. And sometimes women are able to get out and there's this organization called Salt and Light Coalition based in Chicago and at Salt and Light they help these women basically rehab and go from the life that they've lived for however many years, to a new life where they are getting job skills.
They're getting interview skills so that they can get a job or they're getting life skills so that they can cook and clean and prep for themselves. And so what I do is once a month is I'll use improv to work on their communication skills, to help them tap into some of the things that they've probably shut down, that as they've dealt with this, the horror that they've lived through.
So we tap into their creative mind. We tap into their communication abilities and we also try to use it to build up their self esteem because you know, these are, are you frankly broken people that have been so abused and so misused that they're still trying to find their self worth outside of that business.
So with improv, we're able to create these opportunities where, you know, they can be funny, they can be creative,  they can tell stories. They can make each other laugh and if nothing else sticks, once a month, we spend an hour together and they laugh like, like little girls, again, probably something that they haven't done for decades, if ever, and it's such a blessing to lead one of these workshops where I'd come in and work with these ladies.
And I see, you know, they're still carrying the burdens of the world with them because they're still trying to figure out what am I going to do to provide for my kids. Am I going to be able to get my kids back? because many of them resort to drug use to cope with the lifestyle that they're forced into.
so a lot of people will look on them and realize they may have a drug history because drugs history we'll leave scars and we'll leave its impact on, on appearance. So, unfortunately they're labeled before they even get in the door, even if they're clean. And so they're trying to deal with how do they live their life now as a clean individual, outside of all this hell on earth that they've been through.
And I get the opportunity, I get the blessing of being able to go in there and let them laugh. Give them an opportunity to laugh and see, their countenance change to see their physical stance go from one of burden to one of freedom, even if it's just for that one hour and I just, I love that opportunity.
And I also appreciate how important that opportunity is because these are women who have been abused by dozens or hundreds of men and now I have the opportunity as a man to go in there and to be a positive male influence. And I know that that was a risk, but that the organization took in asking me to come in and I, I appreciate the weight of that because I hope that my influence can help them start to trust all people again. And like I said, if nothing else sticks, once a month, we get an hour of just pure laughter and it's such an amazing gift to be able to do that.
Rodney Olsen: I imagine the depression that you went through those years ago is something that said to you, there's not really much to look forward to. There there's no hopes or dreams coming in the future, but now you're in a place where there are hopes and dreams. What are those dreams for the future for, for you and for your wife?
Dave Ebert: Our hopes and dreams are to continue to use. Our gifts as a way to draw people closer to God, through comedy, through teaching comedy and performing comedy, that's kind of where I'm at.
My wife helps behind the scenes with the comedy, but she is also, I'm a sign language interpreter. And so somehow God and his amazing ability to orchestrate and is going to use that somewhere. We know that we're both eventually going to serve in a missions field, which is going out and trying to reach people outside of church walls.
We have no idea where that's going to be. It could be here in Chicago. It could be in Ireland. it could be in Australia who knows. We're just kind of waiting to see where God wants us to be. Well, our biggest thing is we want to make sure that we tell enough people that the world is that is like the Titanic it's sinking and there's one life raft that's going to get you off of that and that life raft is named Jesus and however God wants us to do it because he's orchestrated so many different things for us so far, we know that he's got some plans ahead, because you know, the comedy team I have without some divine intervention, there's no way I would have met these ladies.
Which is another interesting thing that's the comedy team, that I'm a part of, I'm the only man on the team, the rest is four ladies. So it's so interesting to see how God can put things together without it being possible in any other way. I mean, you can call it luck or coincidence, but when so many things line up and so many things work, you're like that's designed that that's a plan.
That's not an accident. You don't get a 747 jumbo jet by accident it's designed and planned. so we're just looking for any opportunity that we can to make people laugh, to make people closer or find a closer relationship to God. My dreams would be that I could do that from a comedy stage for the rest of my life.
I don't know if God's going to open that door. I'm kind of hoping, because it's what I'm good at is what I enjoy, but I'm also open to whatever he has because I've seen him orchestrate so many really cool things so far that I, I, you know, I have dreams to perform in front of thousands of people, but yeah, if I don't ever do that, but I help one person change the course of their life because they found a relationship with God, then it's all been worth it.
Rodney Olsen: I'm sure that despite the fact that you have this relationship, you're talking about with God, that things aren't always rosy. So how differently do you deal with some of the issues that you face now as opposed to back then when you were battling that depression?
Dave Ebert: It's really interesting because we recently went through a painful, end to a relationship with somebody in our church.
And before, before I really knew the Lord and really it was in that place where I was pursuing when I was deep and then depression, I would have lashed out. I would have found ways to mock them to hurt them on social media, because that's what I did after my first divorce. After my first marriage ended is I found ways to lash out and try to make sure everybody knew that my ex wife was the bad guy that I had done everything, that, that it was her choice. So lashing out is something that I would have done. And there's still the temptation, because you know, I'm human and whenever you're hurt as a human being, you want to see justice. You want to see somebody pay for hurting you. So there's an instinct in it, that desire. But now that I have that relationship, I know that there's a bigger plan and that God loves the person that's hurt us as much as he loves us.
And he wants to see that person grow closer to him. So if I interfere in God's plan by trying to hurt them for hurting us, that's going to push them further from God and that's going to interfere with his relationship. So I know now that I don't need to interfere with that relationship, I don't need to go after that person.
Because God is going to deal with it and he's going to handle it in a way that's gonna make everybody better, and so having that knowledge and knowing that number one, God has forgiven me for hurting people. I've hurt people, you know, after my divorce or some bounce back relationships where I didn't treat the lady that I was dating correctly and I was more or less trying to meet my needs without really meeting her needs, and it was awful, but I know that God has forgiven me because, he promises in his Bible that he is faithful and just to forgive and that just means that we can count on him to forgive us when we seek it and when we genuinely want to be forgiven of what we've done. And then I've also, you know, because of this new relationship, I've went through the process of reaching out to the people that I know I've hurt and apologize to them.
There's a bigger picture than what I go through. There's a bigger picture of God's got a plan and he loves us all so much that he doesn't want the division and he doesn't want the hurt, to spread. He really wants to see us when we get hurt, literally turn the other cheek, literally, and the cycle of hurt with yourself and turn it over to him so that he can deal with it.
so I now know that, so I, I now want to make sure that I never continue a cycle of pain. That if somebody hurts me, mistreats me talks bad about me. I never want to be the person that's gonna take that and carry it on to another person, which is completely different than when I was in depression.
Because if I was hurt, I wanted somebody else to hurt.
Rodney Olsen: Dave, on a lighter side, as soon as you tell someone that you're a comedian, do you get the, the usual response of, okay, then make me laugh?
Dave Ebert: Yeah. I get, I get two responses. Usually. I usually they'll say something like, Oh wow, make me laugh. Or tell me a joke, which is really weird because I do improv comedy where it's just unscripted.
There is no plan. It's like we'll set up a scenario, we'll get the audience to tell us some ideas on how to incorporate new things into that scenario, but it's completely made up. So I don't have set jokes like a standup comedian. so it's always funny when people kind of, bring the two together and get them confused.
So like, Oh, make me laugh or tell me a joke or they'll say, Hey, I heard this funny joke you can use this in your, in your show. It's like, Oh, I don't plan what I'm going to use. I appreciate it. but yeah, people, it's one of those weird things you don't walk up to a doctor and say, Oh, you're a doctor well operate on me.
Or, you know, you're, you're a mechanic. do do my oil, you know? So, so, but it, it, I, it's always an opportunity to talk more about what we do. And it really can lead into this conversations where I say, why I do clean comedy. it's not just that I do improv or that I do comedy, but the why and the why is the most important part and that why is so that. I can hope we bring people closer to God.
Rodney Olsen:  It's been fascinating chatting to you today to find out about firstly, the battles that you've been through, but also the place that you are now in. Dave, thank you so much for spending some time with us on Bleeding Daylight.
Dave Ebert:  It's been my pleasure and my honor, you, God bless you on your show and everything that you're doing.
And I, one thing, if I could just send this out to anybody, my email address is always open. So if there's anybody that's been, or is where I used to be in that place of darkness and depression, I know that there's no one answer that's going to help you, but I am willing to listen. I am willing to chat.
I'm willing to talk. My email address is open it's dave@gifts4glory.com and that email will go directly to my phone and we can start a chat and conversation. I don't ever want you to think that there's nobody that will listen. I want you to know that there's somebody that wants to listen because they've been there and I'm not going to throw scripture or Bible verses at you.
I'm just going to listen and, we can talk and figure things out together, but you're not alone. That email address is for anybody that needs a listening ear. If you're in depression or if you're in the middle of considering suicide. I want to be there for you because I've been there. And I know number one, that there's hope and number two, I know that no, two depressions no two suicidal moments are the same, so I'm not going to preach to you. I just want to listen. That's dave@gifts4glory.com. It's always going to be open. So anybody that needs it can reach out and I'm willing to listen.
Rodney Olsen:  Dave, thank you so much.
Dave Ebert:  Absolutely.
Emily Olsen: Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Can a lawyer who is trained to rely on evidence still believe in the God of the Bible? Is faith more about feelings than facts? That’s what we’re exploring today on Bleeding Daylight.
Reverend Doctor Ross Clifford AM is a former lawyer, a theologian, political commentator, pastor, radio personality, and so much more. He has authored or co-authored over a dozen books. In June, 2010, he was made a member of the Order of Australia. 
 
Leading Lawyers' Case for the Resurrection: https://www.amazon.com.au/Leading-Lawyers-Case-Resurrection-Clifford/dp/1945500638
Ross Clifford on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Clifford
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
Emily Olsen: Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen: Can a lawyer who is trained to rely on evidence still believe in the God of the Bible? Is faith more about feelings than facts? That’s what we’re exploring today on Bleeding Daylight.
Rodney Olsen: My guest today seems to have had enough careers for several lifetimes. He's a former lawyer, a theologian, political commentator, pastor radio personality, and so much more. He has authored or co-authored over a dozen books. In June, 2010 he was made a Member of the Order of Australia and it's a real honour to welcome Reverend Doctor Ross Clifford AM to Bleeding Daylight. Ross. Thanks for your time.
Ross Clifford:  Good to be with you, Rodney.
Rodney Olsen: Do you get worn out just thinking of all the roads that your life has actually traveled down?
Ross Clifford: I don't actually I mean, I find it fascinating, but I think that's going to be the new normal. If I could use that term again that seems to be out there today.
I mean, so many people are exploring, you know, different aspects of life and changing vacation and God taking them into other directions. So for me, Rodney has just really been open to where you think you meant to be and where God's taking you
Rodney Olsen: And a lot of those different careers, so to speak have been simultaneously haven't they?
Ross Clifford: Oh, they were and still are, I'm still doing radio and I'm still principal of a theological college and, and writing. And, uh, you know, I just think that's, you know, who I am, that that's what God's called me to do. And I'm pretty comfortable with it.
Rodney Olsen: Let's go back to those very early days and your training and work as a lawyer. What drew you to that vocation?
Ross Clifford:  It was by chance, in some sense, I was looking for something to do and I left school and school had been pretty rocky and I found myself, uh, in the public service, the Attorney General's Department and discovered if I was going to move forward anywhere as a young, 19 year old, I had to study law. So that's basically how it happened, Rodney. And, uh, through that, I fell in love with law and had a real sense that this was somewhere where I could make a difference. Uh, and so I decided to do community law, really work with people and, and, and, and, you know, not the top end kind of law, which I found so distanced.
So I worked at King's cross in Sydney for a while. And then in Alice Springs and Tennant Creek.
Rodney Olsen: It must've been some interesting cases that you're working on with the sort of places you were working.
Ross Clifford: Oh, absolutely. And a Tennant Creek, for example, in, in the Northern Territory, it was an honor to stand with, uh, indigenous people and a stand for them before the courts.
But I must say though, you know, the sense of angst that we hear today was not there. You know, you could work with police and work with magistrates and courts, and I don't know, it just seemed to be a more decent society, if I can say that.
Rodney Olsen: So does it concern you that the issues that existed back then don't just still exist, but are being amplified at the moment ?
Ross Clifford: They are being amplified and I just don't know why, uh, you know, one would have thought that we would have moved on.
We were confronting them. 30, 40 years ago and you would've thought we've moved on, but rather it seems even more hostile, more hatred, more underlying ideologies playing out. And I think we're at a real stage in human history where we have to decide what are our values? Where are we heading? Uh, you know, we won't be taken over by people who have, uh, whatever agendas I have, but we'll work together on this in order to ensure that Australia is the place we wanted to be operating on Christian values, all people are equal. All people have human worth and we can do that together. Rodney.
Rodney Olsen: So that wishing that people would move on. That's not a case of, Hey, let's just forget the past. As some people would suggest, of working together to, to overcome that and move on.
Ross Clifford: Oh, absolutely. And having sat with indigenous people and represented before courts and done Aboriginal lists in places like Tennant Creek and being a regular lawyer under settlements, like , Warrabri, you know, it's about sitting and listening and hearing and understanding.
And, and finding structures that work with that. And we certainly had those structures days, years ago, nothing was perfect, but I'm sure we can do it again. And it's, it's honoring who we are, the past, we've all been through and finding solutions together on that basic Christian principle of human worth and human dignity for all people.
But let's be sure, Rodney, we don't let the agenda written take over this. We do it together as decent human beings.
Rodney Olsen:  It's interesting that in everything you're talking about, you're bringing this Christian aspect into it and where God is leading you. And that is as a trained lawyer who. Is dealing with the facts who is dealing with the evidence in front of you and yet, so often we hear this dilemma between people of faith and people who are looking at the science and the real evidence. Is there a conflict there at all?
Ross Clifford: Ah look, I'm one who knows what it is to doubt, Rodney. And my story is as a lawyer and exploring my Christian faith and being happy and having a real sense that God wanted me in ministry.
I came back from Alice Springs and Tennant Creek, and I came back to train for Christian ministry and within six months, I really had such a strong sense of doubt that I was leaving. The, uh, the, uh, the early studies for being a Christian minister and heading back to the Northern territory to practice law and to be involved in, in politics.
And it was over the resurrection of Jesus. I still had a God out there, but I wasn't sure that this guy was God. And I wasn't sure what this guy did rise from the dead. And so I was in the, in the middle of that personal angst. So, for me, the resurrection of Jesus and belief in the Christian faith is not just, Oh, that's something that I'd like it to be.
I mean, that's hard earned. I mean, God took me through a real cycle of seeing that I could have confidence to place my faith in the person of Jesus Christ.
Rodney Olsen: We're talking about an event that happened over 2000 years ago. How do you look at evidence? How do you deal with that conflict that in your own mind and come to a place where you can say, I can believe this?
Ross Clifford:  Well, that's a really good question. Uh, and I guess why my training as a a lawyer really helped me there. Uh, but you know, it's not rocket science and the stuff I've written, hopefully, you know, the average Australian can see, it's just common sense. I had to go back Rodney and ask, well, how good are these documents that tell the story of Jesus?
And that's just a miracle. Let me tell you. They're better than anything else we have from antiquity. And that's not just me speaking. That's scholars speaking. Yeah. We have 5,000 early Greek copies of the gospels and there's absolutely no doubt, Rodney, that as you read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John you're reading, as it was written.
And it goes to one of the most, uh, established and important techs for the resurrection of Jesus is one Corinthians 15 chapter 15. And I don't know how a scholar alive, who does not believe that was written by the apostle Paul. It's a very early writing. And it tells us clearly what he believed, what he believed he saw and what the early church practiced and what they're prepared to lose their lives for.
Mate, its just gold mine kind of evidence, if you know what I mean. These documents are good stuff.
Rodney Olsen: In one sense, we've got to say, we can look for the evidence that we want to see. Like for instance, I drive a blue Ford Escape. I really didn't know much about Ford Escapes until I bought one. Then every second car on the road seem to be that, cause that's what I was looking for. How do you overcome the bias of just going to seek for what you're after anyway?
Ross Clifford: Ah, good question again. And I think skepticism is not inappropriate.  God's asking us to believe in something that is life changing, and calls you and me to put our life into this movement and this cause, you know, being skeptical is not inappropriate, but Rodney, because of skeptical old Roscoe here, imagine what God gave us. You know, if you read one Corinthians 15, you read the gospels, you find, Rodney, the ones who give the best evidence, the ones who saw Jesus die, the ones who saw him buried and the ones who him rise again, are the women. I mean, it's not that the men are not in there somewhere, but the women give you that unbroken chain, uh, in that day, women weren't allowed to give evidence in a court of law.
The Jewish historian Lapide says the fact that it's women at the forefront is a sign that this is not an invention. This is not made up in order to get you convicted to these guy's bias. You you'd have Peter and Paul or whatever, being the primary witnesses. It's the women, it's a ring of truth. And then you've got people who were skeptical, who didn't believe in him at all.
People like the apostle Paul people, like his half brother James, they were skeptics. They were total skeptics. What turned them around? The resurrection of Jesus. You've got 500 witnesses, Paul says who were out there most are still alive. In our terms, Rodney, it's basically saying, look, here's the app. It's got the list of everybody.
You need to know who's around Jerusalem at the time. Uh, you know, check them out. They even throw in stuff like Joseph of Arimathea. They give you the name of the guy who was involved in the burial of Jesus. And they say he's from the Jewish council, the sanhedrin. It's giving you data. You don't do that if you're creating lies,.You can check it out. No, one's come back and say, Oh, Joseph didn't exist. No one came back and said he didn't bury him. I mean, it's just extraordinary. You just sit there and go, Oh my gosh, God wrote this for me.
Rodney Olsen: There's a reliance there on the Christian scriptures, but how do we know that they're for real?
How do we know that they haven't been reinvented over the years? Is there any evidence coming from outside that, that Christian scripture, that Bible that we know today?
Ross Clifford: Oh yeah. I can tell you the whole Jesus story without going to the Bible. I can tell you that he's locked death crucifixion and believed resurrection believed resurrection without going to the scriptures.
I mean, from the Jewish Talmud, from historians, like Josephus, uh, from, uh, stories like Tacitus, the Roman historian, you know, that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilot. That's, that's how they understood as historians. And it was believed, says, Josephus. By his disciples that he rose from the dead. So mate, you can get that all out there.
Look, Christian philosophers by the name of Moreland had Habermas and they dedate this at Oxford University and whatever, and you and I don't need to do this, but they say there's a number of agreed facts by even the skeptical historians that we could all put out, you know, we could all say, yeah, this happened, the agreed facts are simply things like Jesus existed.
Jesus died upon the cross. The disciples believed the disciples believe he rose again. The disciples gave their lives for that belief. And you've got the incredible transformation historically of people like James, his half brother, who was a skeptic, who became a leader of the church and the apostle Paul, who was the major antagonist against the church.
He believed Jesus died, but didn't believe in any of this resurrection stuff. He encountered the resurrected Christ and he became a believer. So they say you take those five facts together. You don't need to open your Bible to get those five facts from history. That enough is to say there's a case to answer here.
Rodney Olsen: And yet there are still people who are writing books, looking back at history and saying the facts don't stack up. So are they not looking at the evidence? Are we looking at different evidence? How do we account for that?
Ross Clifford: Oh, well, you're looking at times, uh, at people who have not looked at the evidence. I remember a debate that took place, uh, in Sydney with a mentor of mine called John Mark Montgomery.
Who's a well known lawyer historian. He's got three doctorates. He communicates well with the public and he was the biding, a guy called Plummer from Melbourne who was a lawyer, and it was over these particular matters and someone from the audience asked Montgomery how he could be so sure Jesus existed, died and rose from the grave and the gospels are reliable.
And Montgomery took him through the whole thing, 5,000 copies. That means that whether you're Christian or not. 5,000 copies from early dates, different places. You can check the gospels, check the reliability, and you can come as a scholar with a conviction that as you read, these gospels is as they were written.
There's no debate about that. With respect to what Paul writes in one Corinthians 15, then you've got to ask, okay, as I read it is, as it was written, but are these truthful witnesses, are they seeking to tell the truth and this basic tests look how they're honest. Look how they share everything. Look at how they believe this.
Look, how they died for it. You guys, for all of this. And then Plumber. Who's a lovely guy. a leading lawyer, uh, represent the Skeptics Association. Then someone said to him, well, Mr. Plummer, why don't you believe the gospels are reliable and they told the truth about Jesus and his answer, I kid you not Rodney, his answer was, well anything that Robert Schuller follows must be doubtful.
Rodney Olsen: And right there, we have a bias
Ross Clifford: Right there. He lost the debate.
Rodney Olsen: Does this come back to that thing I was mentioning earlier in that sometimes we're looking for what we want to find?
Ross Clifford: Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And look, I did say healthy skepticism. I'm not saying I can prove that Jesus died and rose again historically a hundred percent.
I mean, I can't tell you a hundred percent that Robert Menzies lived and died. I mean, history is always probable. We need to remember that history is always probable, but there's more evidence for Jesus' death and resurrection than there is for Julius Caeser. So, you know, come on. Um, so we know we need to remember that we do have bias.
Uh, not dismissing any of that. Uh, I remember Barbara Thieirng, who's a leading Australian skeptic and a really nice woman. I did some study with her, but Barbara said to me, Ross, you just believe this stuff because you have this great need to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. And I said, well, thanks Barbara for pointing that out.
And you obviously don't believe this stuff because you have a great need, not to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. And she said, Oh, Ross, come on. Absolute rubbish. This is not just emotion. I don't believe because the facts. Oh, well guess what Barbara? The same thing happens for me. Why do you assume I want the Jesus story to be true?
I was very happy being a lawyer, Barbara. I would really love to be in politics. I liked money. I had a happy life. I wasn't running around, saying I need a Jesus story, Barbara, and she got it. We were friends. I'm standing here, not because I don't think any of that other part is relevant. I'm standing here. because mate, I actually believe it happened.
Rodney Olsen: And going back to your court days, we hear about this idea of beyond a reasonable doubt. So is that how you convinced yourself? You thought the evidence stacks up and it stacks up beyond a reasonable doubt?
Ross Clifford: Yeah, basically. Uh, and of course, you know, that's kind of working, you know, at sort of a God factor.
And there are people here that are listening, who may not be Christians and that's fine. Take an honest, look at the evidence for the resurrection, you know, pray. The doubters prayer. Lord, help me, show me if I'm meant to be leaving here or not, but let's look at it. Make and take that sort of strong look at, and I'll be very confident, you'll come to a conclusion that there is a case to answer. But Rodney it gets deeper than that. In my life, when that's happening, you've got the work of the Holy spirit that then brings the conviction that what is mounting up here is more than probable. It is actually true. That's the work of God in your life, but it's not just the truth of the resurrection historical fact.
That's nice. That's out there. When you start thinking about it, you all of a sudden discover, that this resurrection thing is mind boggling, Rodney, absolutely mind boggling. Cause we all are looking for worldviews to follow. You have foundations for our life. And the resurrection says if Jesus has resurrected, as Paul says, you and I will be resurrected.
It says that God is concerned for you and I, as whole people will be changed and transform yes but our life in the future, Rodney, is as resurrected people before God. And if God's going to raise you and I up to be with him forever, that means he's concerned for you and I now. And that's why it's transformed me.
That's why there's Christian hospitals, that's why we're in the forefront of edge of education. That's why Christians have been the forefront of compassion. Resurrection says God's concerned for the whole of me. It's one of the most profound understandings of the world that you can have. And there's atheists out there now all over the place saying, Oh, we mustn't have the fact of the resurrection, but we want the theology, the worldview of the resurrection.
I've got news for you. You can't split the package. You can't take, Oh, I want a resurrection but without actually believing in one. Um, and the resurrection has this incredible foundation, Rodney, that, uh, it is true, but more than that, it is life changing. It changes the whole way you see the world. There's a common argument.
Rodney Olsen: I hear where people talk about this idea of a moral code or of having morals and they can be quite indignant to say, how dare you say that it is only through religion, only through a faith in a God that, I don't believe in, that I can have a moral stance. I have morals beyond that. What is your answer to that?
Ross Clifford: Look, I believe there's truth in most understandings of the world, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily true and I'm sure there's decent people have fair dinkum morals that might be based on Christianity and the like, but in the end, Rodney, what's the test? What's the ultimate test? What puts your moral code against somebody else's moral code?
What puts your understanding against another person's understanding? Both of you might be decent, but have very different moral codes. Well, what puts the difference here is if there's a person who died and rose again, and he says, that's the moral code. You have a test, you have a foundation, you have a certainty to the moral code that you are following is just not coming from the pack, it's just not coming from a bunch of good people creating something. As the philosopher. Rousseau said years ago, to have a moral code that you can actually base your life on must come from the gods. Guess what? There is one that does come from God. The resurrection affirms it. .
Rodney Olsen: I spoke earlier about the fact that you have authored or co-authored over a dozen books. Let's go back to that first one. You put together something by the title of Leading Lawyers look at the Resurrection. Tell me about that early book.
Ross Clifford: Yeah, look, it was actually written for Russia. That's interesting thing. Uh, I was over there with a mission group in Russia after the Gorbachev stuff was all unfolding.
And, uh, they said, look, Russians, like to think about things. Can we have a book? We haven't had one that actually points the case for the resurrection. And someone said, Oh, you've done a thesis on stuff like that. And I said, Oh, yeah I could make it very popular, and I did, but the way God works an Australian publisher, John Waterhouse, found out about it, uh, from Strand and then Albatross originally Albatross.
And he said, Ross, could you put that into English for us? You know, it was in English, but can we have an English edition and it was, and Rodney  it was my privilege really to launch that book in a real way at the Gorbachev Foundation, with the director of the Gorbachev Foundation, uh, who indicated she'd handed it out to a thousand judges and lawyers at a recent conference.
She said the reason why is we are a people of kind of faith, religious faith. We've lost it through communism. We're trying to come back to that. Your book has the faith component, but more than that, she said, you  know, the KGB told us how to decide cases. Whether we were the judge, the prosecutor, defence lawyer.
We'd all get a phone call the night before telling us you better, you know, do whatever. We're not used to arguing or presenting a case and not does only your book open us up to the question of faith again, but it shows us how to logically and legally and in a popular way, get our case together. And so that's, that's how it happened, but, uh, you got to remember it's life transforming a number of those lawyers actually brought me out of the darkness.
I read this stuff and I looked at the gospels again and I was born again. So, uh, this was very precious to me.
Rodney Olsen: So these lawyers have looked at the evidence they've said, yeah, it does stack up how many lawyers were there and are they all believers?
Ross Clifford: Yeah, they're all believers. Many of them weren't believers until they started doing, uh, you know, exploring as I've indicated.
Oh, there's just a pile of them, uh, including senior lawyers in Australia. Like, Sir Leslie Herron, I mean, The world's most famous lawyer, the world's. most successful lawyer was a guy called Sir Lionel Luckhoo, who was knighted twice by the queen, Rodney. Now I see that Perry Mason's making a comeback, can't wait, all of you who remember the old Perry Mason legal series.
Well, Perry Mason got to about 70 murder acquittals, which he won. Then they thought he had to lose one that so no one would believe it. Sir Lionel Luckhoo got 240 murder aquittals, 240 in a row. Um, and he was 63 he had everything, the world's best advocate, you know, knighted twice by the queen, and then he says I had absolutely nothing. And he took a look at Jesus. And Sir Lionel Luckhoo stood up after looking at the evidence and reading the gospels, et cetera, totally convinced that this Jesus had died, buried and rose again. And he committed the rest of his life to sharing the message of Jesus.
And it was my privilege. And he came out from the West Indies and launched this book with Clarrie Briese. And so Clarrie Briese was the Chief Magistrate of New South Wales, who's also in the book.
Rodney Olsen: There seems to be two sides of this. There is the evidence that as you say, does seem to stack up, it does seem to take us beyond a reasonable doubt, but at the same time, you're speaking about something different. You're speaking about something that goes beyond just reading a set of beliefs and saying, yep. It seems to stack up. I will follow that belief. Tell me more about that.
Ross Clifford: Yeah. Look, Rodney. Most Aussies approach things like this two ways.
Is it true? Does it work? And many of us start with, does it work? And if we think that it works, then we'll ask , is it true? Others of us ask, is it true? And then we'll say, well, so what.  Well, we've been talking about is it true? Yeah. Does it work? Does it change my life if we hinted at this? Yes. Because the resurrection of Jesus points to resurrection as a state of eternity, you know, transform change.
Let's not get literal, but the whole sense is, the whole of Rodney goes  to be with God forever. When you get that kind of context, Rodney, the resurrection brings you incredible message of hope. Hope. I mean, in one of my books, I talk about George Gittoes, who's the war photographer, you know, one of the world's best.
And he's in Rwanda at the, you know, at the end of all that incredible civil violence and, uh, ethnic cleansing and he's with a particular tribe with the United Nations and Australian medical team taking photos and whatever. They've been told to leave, because another tribe is coming in to clean out that tribe that they're with.
So they get in their cars and whatever you already to leave, can't do anything. And I've got the picture. He took a picture and this guy stands up in the crowd, that's just about to be massacred with machetes, a guy stands up, opens his New Testament and starts reading out the, the hope they have in the Lord, Jesus Christ and Gittoes, and I paraphrase basically said, now I know what religion, Christianity is all about. I mean with all our technology, with all our care, we had to leave and hopefully come back and be able to patch some people up. He stood up in the crowd and offered them, hope, offered them hope. I mean, how powerful is that?
I mean, we go through coronavirus. We go through all sorts of situations in our world, and we're reminded today that for many people around our globe, crisis is normal. This is their every day existence. You know, the Corona virus is just one more step in a crisis as normal. And we can say to them, we care for you, we love you. We're going to support you. We're going to support compassion. We're going to support you because simply we understand God cares for everyone, the whole person. Resurrection tells us that cares for all people. And as we care for you and minister to you and seek to share our assets and resources at the same time, we want to hear you, we want you to hear the message. That even in this God, in death, there's only resurrection. There's no other worldview that offers this. Mate, whatever trial, whatever situation. The resurrection of Jesus says God cares. God loves God's understanding. God's been there. He's been on a cross, whatever we faced legally or morally or spiritually or sense of abandonment, he's been through all of that. He's been through false trials. Uh, you know, he's been disowned by friends. Uh, he's physically suffered, been through all of that, and he's the one who's risen. And says, I'm there with you. I'm there with you, Rodney. I mean, it's just profound. It's just, it's just incredibly profound.
Rodney Olsen: You're talking about that sense of hope, even in very difficult circumstances. And you touched on that story there from Rwanda of someone standing up with hope for the future because of their faith in Jesus., and yet there's still a massacre. I've been to Rwanda. I've been through the Memorial and, and read the, the heart wrenching stories.
And many people would turn around and say, Well, if this God does care for us, if this God does care for the whole person, as you say, why does he not step in at moments like this and hold back the hand of the person who brings the massacre?
Ross Clifford: Every understanding of the world, whether you're Christian or Buddhist or atheist really struggles with this issue.
It's not just the Christian faith that struggles with it. And I heard a former Prime Minister of Australia, who's an atheist. His the answer to that was, and this guy, achieved so much, he became Prime Minister of Australia. He said, well, I'm just half a grain of sand on the beach. In other words, who cares?
Who gives a stuff? It doesn't matter. There's no, God, there's no purpose, and I'm just a half a grain of sand on the beach. And who cares about half a grain of sand on the beach? I mean, I can give a more philosophical answer about, you know, God created a world, which is, which is fair to create where we, as a people had a choice of loving him or not loving him.
And we decided to go our own way and there's consequences for all of that. And in those consequences, you know, sin and darkness fill-in, and I can do that mate with time and do that very reasonably, I believe better explanation than any other worldview. But for our purposes today, let me just remind people that in that darkness and that situation, why does God not?
Well, you know, they're very difficult questions, but I can say this in answer the God who goes the God who goes through this with us fully understands because he's been there every kind of predicament we could imagine, his son, Jesus went through all of that. So he clearly identifies with us as Hebrews four says, we can cry out to him in honesty, but more than that in the resurrection of Jesus, he says, well, whatever they throw at you in me, there's only resurrection, whatever life throws at you, there's only hope whatever happens is only the empowerment of the Holy Spirit upon you and in your life and grab hold of that truth.
Nothing gets close to it. I'm not a half a grain of sand on the beach. The story of the resurrection says I'm valuable. The most significant person in the universe loves me so much, he would die upon a cross for me. Mate when I know that nothing can touch me. Absolutely nothing.
Rodney Olsen: I find it interesting that there's not a complete or a, uh, an immediately satisfying answer for that question of why does God allow suffering?
There are many attempts that we've heard over the years to come to that. And yet you're saying that, the evidence still stacks up to say that this is for real. So does that mean we don't have to have absolutely everything straight in our mind before we can believe and put our trust in this hope?
Ross Clifford: I agree fully. Let me just repeat though. I can give a philosophical answer to the question and if you're interested in people like plan together. Done that. And most secular philosophers have agreed that, that, that it's, it's possible to be an all powerful, all loving God and still create a world where there's freedom and freedom of choice, because you believe that your created beings, your highest created beings, human beings.
If you really love them, you're going to give them the choice of whether they love you back. And in that world, there will be evil, and suffering because people choose to go their own way, and Plantinga's philosophically done that question to the satisfaction of the Academy, but I'm trying to work here with myself and everybody else out there, Rodney, and I'm simply saying, you know, we don't have answers to everything. It doesn't mean we shouldn't ask the questions, but when you get an answer that brings you an understanding of the world that is so powerful. So embracive. So empowering and based on a central fact in history, that is just overwhelming, then, you know, I'm moving on.
I'm moving on. Some things I'm just going to leave to eternity. You know, Rodney, a few years ago on that program, Q and A, they had a guy on Peter Hitchins. Peter Hitchins is the brother of Christopher Hitchens, who was one of the best known atheists of our time. Now Peter himself had been an atheist, but then he was converted to Christianity.
And this Q and A was during the festival of dangerous ideas, and Peter was the only Christian on the panel,  and some of you would not be surprised to hear that, and Tony Jones said, well, okay, let's finish. Let's talk about what we think is the world's most dangerous idea. And he turned to Peter and said, what's the world's most dangerous idea and I paraphrase, but basically said the world's most dangerous idea is that 2000 years, a guy called Jesus lived. died buried, and rose again, because if that's true, it changes and transforms everything. It's the  world's most, dangerous idea, mate. Nothing is the same. If this is true, nothing is the same again.
Rodney Olsen:  I find it interesting that that is so transformative, as you're saying. But what does it mean for the here and now for those people who say, yep, I believe in the resurrection, does it stay as a belief or does it dramatically alter the way we live our lives?
Ross Clifford: Oh it dramatically alters. Mate if this is true. You've got the risen, God walking with you. Um, if this is true, uh, you celebrate no matter what, that's, why Paul could celebrate in shipwreck and, in hardship, and even facing death because he knew the one who had defeated death was there with him and poured out his Spirit upon him.
If it's true, it means that we care for those who are disadvantaged and poor and vulnerable because there's human, dignity and human worth. The basic. Oh, you know, the basic human rights documents like the 1948 declaration of human rights. It's the foundation for the United Nations. That's based on the 10 Commandments. Numerous human rights documents are based on this premise of love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
It transforms you  mate,  you've got to care. You've got to be involved. You know, God loves and cares for you. You know, there's a moral code, like a sermon on the Mount that you can live by and put your life to. So it's discipleship changing, right? It's it's, it's the, world's most dangerous idea.
Rodney Olsen: I hear ofpeople who say, I've looked at the evidence. I don't believe it and I don't want to believe it and they'll just walk away. But there are other people I hear these voices who say, I can't believe that, but I really wish I could. What would you say to those people?
Ross Clifford: Look to the first, I support you've got to live by your own conscience, and if you really believe that's the case.
Then, you know, that's what, that's the step that you take, but there are eternal ramifications for that. Many people just turn their back on this thing because they don't want to be controlled by anybody else, but themselves. I mean, they don't want a God out there who tells them how to live life and tells them what the values are and not might actually tell them that they've got to go overseas and make a difference, you know?
Um, that's that first group, the second group I understand. And I'd simply say suck it and see. Taste it. Actually ask, what would the resurrection, what would it make a difference in my life? How would it transform my values? How would it transform how I see other people. And uh, if I can see that really making a difference to how I live my world, then step out and say, God, I'm really not so sure about this, but, you know, give me the strength, give me the conviction.
Uh, give me people that I can speak to that allow me to cement this. So take a step, take a step towards Jesus. And you'll find that after one step two steps, three steps, four steps, five steps. You'll wake up one morning and think, Oh my gosh. I'm in.
Rodney Olsen: It's interesting that there are those camps that you're talking about, but there are also those in the camp that say, I've seen what Christians are like.
They're a group of people that are against this against that, and they seem to be very hateful.
Ross Clifford: Oh, and I understand that. I mean, the McCrindle research shows that the number one objection, that people who are open to faith have to the Christian faith is Christians themselves. The basic problem that the community or they seeking a faith have is not God.
The number one problem they have is us and  I understand that. And that's a real call for us to get our lives together, but just remember Rodney, that we have charities, Tim Costello, you know, who was the CEO of World Vision a again, I quote, but I think he said something like 90% of charities and NGOs in Australia began from a Christian involvement and movement.
So we need to bear that in mind. Mother Teresa. I mean, you can just go global, all sorts of people. Catherine Hamlin who's just passed away in Ethiopia. Who must be the Australian of the last 10 years who spent 50 years there, uh, creating fistula hospitals, so women could give birth, have, uh, awkward results and not be outcasts in tribes, but actually come back and live with their kids and their husband in the major community.
She's committed her life to that, man. We can repeat that, time and time again. And just remember how we started this. Plummer said why don't I believe in the gospels, he said anyone who believes, anything Robert Schuller believes in, I can't believe. And that's no answer. You know, it's a concern that you find people that you don't think you're authentic, but you know, I'm offering you Jesus.
I'm not offering you me. I'm not offering you Rodney Olsen. I'm offering you Jesus. Look at him. Transform and change world's most dangerous. I didn't, no one is perfect, but my gosh, mate, it is it's mind boggling stuff.
Rodney Olsen: So if anyone has heard something today and they think. I need to investigate this further. Where would you send them?
Ross Clifford: Oh, well, you know,without being rude, Leading Lawyers Look at the Resurrection, is a book that I've written that people might find helpful. There's some books out there that guys like John Dickson have written. Some of you might've heard, uh, that, uh, that name, I mean, you find some of those helpful, um, it's really not hard to find a book like that, that gives you that kind of background and impetus, but also don't forget to just read your gospels.
Maybe you've never read one before. Read John's gospel look up in your index in a Bible and you get Bibles anywhere. Look up in your index, or you can even Google it. You can Google John's gospel for nothing. Uh, look for the NIV translation. Just read it through, ask God to go with you on the journey and then read one Corinthians 15, uh, chapter 15 of the book of one Corinthians written by Paul.
No doubt about that. Early read what he says about what happened and transformed and who saw that and just go to those texts with an open heart.
Rodney Olsen: There's plenty for people to think about and to investigate further. I love your passion for what you're doing. I love your passion for that resurrection message that you carry. Ross. I want to say thank you for spending some time with us today.
Ross Clifford: Good to be with you, mate. God bless you, Rodney. God bless everyone.
Emily Olsen: Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Liz Vice is a reluctant gospel singer who yearns to see gospel justice fall across the earth. Her current single See the Day is a longing for that kind of justice.
Her first album, There's a Light was released back in 2012 and climbed to number six on Billboard's, Top Gospel albums, and 13 on the R&B chart. It's an incredible honour to welcome Liz Vice to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Website: https://www.lizvice.com/home
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LizViceMusic
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lizvice/
 
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen
Liz Vice is a reluctant gospel singer who yearns to see gospel justice fall across the earth. Her current single See the Day is a longing for that kind of justice.
Rodney Olsen (00:00):
Some years ago, I discovered an album that quickly became a favourite of mine. I then started raving about my discovery to friends who began buying their own copies. That album was, There's a Light released back in 2012 by today's guest, Liz Vice. The album was rereleased in 2015 it climbed to number six on Billboard’s, Top Gospel albums and 13 on the R&B chart. There's been another album since then. The amazing Save Me and a few single releases. All of them displaying Liz's soulful vocals, bringing to life some incredible gospel lyrics. Liz, it's an incredible honour to welcome you to Bleeding Daylight. Thanks for your time.
Liz Vice (00:39):
Oh, thanks for your interest.
Rodney Olsen (00:41):
You're one of five children. That's a reasonable sized family. Was it a musical childhood for you?
Liz Vice (00:47):
Not really. I feel like the, the story goes for middle children. I pretty much kept to myself. I would sing for hours in the basement or my bedroom, but I mean my mom would sing throughout the house, but that slowly disappeared as working multiple jobs to raise five kids might cause one to stop singing at some point. But in my lineage there is a lot of musical influences. My grandfather played the guitar and sang, my grandmother played the piano and sang. Well my mom is from LA and she was moving towards a career in being a jazz musician, but my grandmother was very old fashioned. According to my mom, she was offered a record deal and my grandmother didn't really support it because she wanted my mom to be a wife and raise a family and so my mom kind of let go of that dream to honour her mother. And then my dad, who I didn't really grow up with was in a famous seventies and eighties band and even though he wasn't a part of my life, the music just passed through somehow. Osmosis is what I would like to say. Through the genes.
Rodney Olsen (02:15):
So, there was that influence all along but at that stage it wasn't something that you really took up apart from just singing around the home.
Liz Vice (02:23):
Oh no, I was, I was a shy kid and I don't really remember that, but I've had people who knew me when I was in kindergarten or middle school that have sent, sent me messages saying I never imagined the shy little girl would grow up to be singing on stage. Music was never ever a part of my plan. I always wanted to be an actress, be in movies, be a movie star. Mainly because I didn't see any characters that looked like me on screen and so I wanted to be that for other little Brown girls. But that's like leads into a whole other story of health issues that kind of put a halt to being able to go to college for theatre.
Rodney Olsen (03:09):
You were moving towards that kind of a life, but as you say, your plans had to take a back seat when you hit your late teens. Tell me about the health issues that you faced.
Liz Vice (03:18):
Yeah. So when I was 15 I was diagnosed with an auto immune disease and by the age of 19 I was on dialysis for kidney failure and for three and a half years, ups and downs, mostly downs with my health including congestive heart failure and becoming so ill from the process of dialysis that I was removed from the transplant list because my heart, I would have had to have a heart transplant as well. And so by the time I was 20 I kind of gave up on any dreams of ever going to school for theatre or being an actress or anything in that realm, let alone thinking I'd actually live to graduate from a four year university and my last year on dialysis, I don't know what happened. I started taking this medication for my heart, which is not the story of a lot of people that I met at the clinics.
Liz Vice (04:15):
When I would go for my dialysis sessions, a lot of people would pass away from the process or from the fear and that stopped coming because it was so exhausting on the body. And I got my kidney transplant and in that process I had gone, I had stayed in college the whole time so I have like an associate of arts associate of science, a certification in medical assisting and I graduated with my certification and being a medical assistant because I was like, I think I could do a year long program, even if I don't like live long enough to work in this degree and this certification, I could at least be a voice to people who are in the hospital who are losing hope. I don't, it's, like it feels like another life that I had. There are moments in my life today where I wish I was as strong as I was when I was actually on my death bed.
Liz Vice (05:18):
And so after I got my transplant, I went back to school a month later, which my doctors were not happy about and I graduated with this certification and being a medical assistant and just after working in the hospital with cancer patients, it just felt too close to home being on the other side of the bed of people who literally were in my same situation four weeks prior, and I did that for a little while before I decided to take the leap to them go to film school because if I couldn't be in the movies, at least I could make the movies right. So that's what I decided to do.
Rodney Olsen (05:59):
That sort of medical condition that you went through, I guess would bring all sorts of things in in life into sharp focus when you're facing your own mortality
Liz Vice (06:09):
Especially at such a young age. I definitely feel like that keeps me living a quote unquote risky life, which feels counter intuitive to the American dream of working a nine to five and having a 401 K and getting married with two and a half children with a white picket fence. It just never seemed like a plan for me, especially not knowing how long I had in this life. So yeah, I went to film school and I worked on set and I would teach myself how to use software programs to create DVDs for short films. I shot and learn how to edit and sound design, all these tech things. I really love the technical parts of film. And now that I do music I love, because of this pandemic, I've been recording a lot at home, but before we get into that going to film school and then graduating and being selected to give the commencement speech and getting invited to work on a TV show for three weeks, that was a paid internship.
Liz Vice (07:20):
And then that leading to another job and that leading to another job and then having a pause. Which led to me singing on a church record that I never, I just, you know, I never ever wanted to be a singer, but for some reason this church that I had started going to, I just felt like this little tug to just sing harmonies in the background. That's it. I'm good. I'm going to work in film to pay off my debt, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in debt for going to film school. And then I would, you know, live my happily filmmaking, life struggle bus of being an artist
Rodney Olsen (08:09):
So that first entrance into music is really wanting to perhaps just sing harmonies, be in the background. And I guess that still shines through in your music, in that you're constantly collaborating with others. You're wanting others around you. You're not the typical frontwoman who just wants to say, I'm the singer. You're constantly bringing others into your music.
Liz Vice (08:33):
Yeah. I mean even to this day I work better with a second head and a second heart just because I can get so stuck on the little things and overcomplicate words for myself or ideas or a certain sound and not to mention feeling the pressure of having a certain image in the music industry that I, it just never felt like it was my identity, especially feeling like I was called, which is like a whole other thing that I wrestled with. So I started going to church at 14 years old and for six, seven, 10 years or so. It was a small church. We would sing out of hymn books sometimes we had a pianist, sometimes the pianist wasn't the greatest player, but we would all sing with our voices and you learn how to hear harmonies and you learn how to sing certain parts.
Liz Vice (09:31):
Never knew how to read music, but would take music classes to get that extra credit in university and then started going to another church because the church I was a part of was an older generation and I just wanted to make sure there are young people who wanted to pursue a relationship with Jesus that were my age, who also worked in the arts. I just needed to see that for myself and this particular community saying songs that felt real and human and that transcended any kind of faith practices with the in like the foundation of Jesus as the one who was the example of love for people. And I just would sing harmonies from the pier and I just, the tug got stronger and stronger and then I was like, okay, I've gone out to sing background vocals, which I never, I remember going to audition to sing on the worship team and I thought I was going to die.
Liz Vice (10:34):
And Josh White said, okay, like what's one of your favourite songs? I had practiced all these songs that I had learned from the hymn book and, and he asked if I wanted to sing one of his songs that he would sing during a Sunday service. And I said yes. And it went from singing background vocals to on Thursday night prayer to singing a verse or two or leading a song on a Sunday evening. And I just did that for myself, for the Lord. It was never anything that I thought I would end up doing for the past almost 10 years now.
Rodney Olsen (11:14):
So when was it that those people around you started to say, Liz, there's, there's something more than a background vocalist in you? When did they start to call that out?
Liz Vice (11:22):
Oh man, I remember that day. Like it was yesterday. My friend Joe, he was one of the worship leaders and he really wanted women to kinda be seen in the forefront as a church and leading songs. And so he asked if I would sing this song called Enfold Me. I did not want to do it. Like I thought I was going to have a heart attack, but for some reason my head shook. Yes, in agreement. Even though on the inside I was trembling and saying, what am I doing? What am I doing? And I remember the moment I finally saying, I felt like the room emptied. I felt like one, my pupils were getting smaller and smaller, so it was getting darker. Like I was about to faint and I just kept envisioning myself fainting off of stage into the front row and all of a sudden the room was empty and I just felt like I was singing for one.
Liz Vice (12:20):
Okay Liz, if you don't want to sing for the people, sing for one, sing for the Lord. And when the song was over, I was like covered in sweat. Like I felt like every pore on my body had opened up and after the church service had ended and the worship team is like leaving the stage as people are being released and putting chairs back. My friend Nancy walks on stage in tears and she's like, what was that? And I almost started crying but I didn't because I hate crying in front of people and I said I don't know. And every time I would lead a song at church it felt like the whole room stood still. And I know this because one of the pastors told me this, he was like when you started singing, no one got up. Like the whole room stood still.
Liz Vice (13:16):
And then my friends started saying maybe you should consider doing music. And then strangers started saying, I think there is a call over your life that but you have a wall up and I don't know what it's going to take for that wall to come down. And I had to start telling my friends, please stop telling me that music is my calling because I don't want to do that. And anytime a sermon would be taught at church about calling, I was hoping that it would be a form of release that I don't have to do music, that it could just be something I did on Sunday and that was fine and I could go and struggle and film cause I was still doing that, which is feast or famine until after working on a TV show, the pastor of the church asked if I wanted to sing on a church record and he asked me to sing the song that I sang at church.
Liz Vice (14:12):
That kind of started a whole movement of music and people loved that song. They loved that track. And Josh, the pastor would announce it from the pulpit that he was going to make a record for me. We're going to make a record for Liz, Vice Liz Vice Liz Vice. We're going to make a record for Liz Vice and my name is so easy to remember that. Well I just hated it when people would say Liz Vice Liz Vice Liz Vice. I just wanted to crawl up into a hole and hide. Yeah. And two years later I recorded my first record. There's a Light,
Rodney Olsen (14:49):
And this seems so opposite to to most of what we see in culture where people are grasping for fame. And we've seen lots of talent shows on television where people who obviously don't have a gifting will get up because they're so convinced and they're so grasping for it. But you are very hesitant to to put yourself in that spotlight. And I guess that again gives us a key to why you continue to collaborate so well with others. This is not something where you're wanting to put yourself in the spotlight.
Liz Vice (15:20):
I mean, and honestly it's even interviews like this or I would have pastors like one pastor in particular kind of like pulled me to the side and was just curious as to why all these doors were opening up for me with music if I was so hesitant about it and asked if I fear that my hesitation would come off as false humility. And so that was just another added insecurity that I could never be honest about my stage fright and my doubts as being an artist. And my doubts is doing anything that I felt called to and the life of an artist is not a secure life. It's a very risky life. Yeah. I mean, you do see all these talent shows. I know so many musicians where they love being on stage. They feel like they were made to be on stage and I've never had that confidence.
Liz Vice (16:18):
Oh yeah, that's me. That's how I feel. And so I can be pretty quiet about my music career. There are some people who have no idea what I do until someone else mentions that I'm a musician because I just don't really talk about it because I still struggle with this, this, this thing that is natural that I keep getting invited into multiple spaces. Not an, and that's the other thing is like not only am I singing you songs in church, but I'm singing these songs in spaces where people would never enter into the church. I once had a guy interview me and say, your music feels very familiar and nostalgic. Like, I know it, but I don't like that it mentions Jesus. Or I've had an article from Portland, Oregon, which is a very quote unquote non church city and particular very liberal newspaper said that if, if you can make it singing about Jesus in Portland, Oregon, you can make it anywhere.
Liz Vice (17:27):
And so I'm like getting invited into these spaces that have a strip club upstairs, but I'm singing about Jesus or getting invited to these festivals or getting invited to sing with these bands that are not associated with any faith practice. And I just say yes and I like, I am meeting people that Jesus loves too, regardless of what the conventional church would teach from the pulpit. I do believe that I get to experience Jesus in so many different kinds of people. And I pray that my idea of salvation is way smaller in comparison to Jesus's plan of love and redemption. And that's why I say yes to collaborating with a lot of people's because I feel like I need other voices to create a whole picture. Otherwise it's just one sided and I only have one piece of the puzzle and someone else has another piece. And then we work together and it makes something beautiful that I don't think I could have done on my own. And if I did try to do it on my own, I would drive myself insane and it would take years, years to accomplish anything.
Rodney Olsen (18:49):
And initially a lot of the music you were playing wasn't your own music, so to speak. It wasn't music that you were writing and yet you very much made them your own
Liz Vice (18:59):
Yeah. There's one song that I saying, yeah, Enfold Me. I mean, that's like the catalyst song to where I am today. I honestly don't even remember what it sounds like from the original artists because I've just sang it my way for so long and, and even moving into my second record Save Me, those songs arose from being on tour and self doubt and talking about health issues and, and rising up from dark nights of my soul and meeting other people and, and standing up for people that may not even believe the same things that I believe, but I believe that they are created beings and they have just as right to be loved as I do by Jesus. And so it's, yeah, believe me, I'm just as surprised by my career as most people. And when I say it, it just comes off as maybe false humility, but that's why I don't say it very often. I'm still in the process of this unfolding story and just to character,
Rodney Olsen (20:19):
How does it feel for you knowing that your music is heard right across the world? You've had tracks that have been streamed at over a million times. That must seem quite surreal for you.
Liz Vice (20:31):
Oh, it's so surreal. But if my music has a reflection of who I am, then the fact that it's reaching all over the world is exactly what I want to do as a human being. I love traveling. I love stepping into other cultures to learn new ways of seeing people, food. Storytelling, music. I love it. I love traveling so much and yeah, it's an honour that my music has travelled this much and I don't, not that I don't work hard for it, but I don't try to force something if it doesn't naturally on fold or if it's not naturally accepted. Like I'm not gonna I can't make anyone love my music. And so it surprises me every day when I get a message from someone saying that they just discovered a song that came out eight years ago or just discovered a new single, I don't know how it happens. I literally released the music and then I have to continue to live my life. So it's really cool that my song is all the way in Australia, blows me away. It's really cool. I hope to make it there in the flesh one day.
Rodney Olsen (21:50):
That would be wonderful. You're saying that your music seems to be accessible by people who would not normally walk into a church and there's a combination in your music that I find quite rare. So for instance, even going back to that first album, a song like Empty Me Out where I've played that to so many people and immediately they're drawn in by the music even right from the intro. Then they hear your vocal, they're swept away with that. But there's a deepness to those lyrics that we don't even hear in church these days.
Liz Vice (22:23):
Yeah. Well believe me, I have my opinions about that.
Liz Vice (22:29):
I'm like, y'all, we cannot be cowards. I feel like a lot of like the church body plays it safe in a lot of ways and I don't really think that we're meant to play it safe. Although I physically would like to live a life of stability and safety, there is something that's deeply ingrained in also my loyalty to a promise that I made when I was 15 that if the Spirit leads me somewhere, I say yes, even if I'm kicking and screaming. And I think that this music transcends because it connects to humans. Everyone has a story. Everyone has struggled and had to overcome something. Everyone has doubts, everyone has joys and I, and I hope that my music continues to connect with all people in that way. But the root of it is my relationship with Jesus. Even in my own doubts, in my own wrestling and my own frustrations, that mustard seed of faith is mighty strong inside of me.
Liz Vice (23:43):
And I mean, even with the pandemic I, I was, I have been so burnt out from doing music. I was literally going to go to Switzerland to go to on a spiritual retreat to be in the mountains and also tick off a country on my bucket list that I wrote when I was on dialysis and then walk away from music because I was tired, burnt out, brain fried. The politics of music is exhausting and ready to be done. I made my two records, pat on my back. Let's move on to something else. And even with a pause, I've been doing music nonstop, but it's different. There's no pressure to sell tickets. There's no pressure to convince people to listen to my music or to like me. And yeah, I'm just in awe. You would think that I would see this as an obvious, duh, this is what you're supposed to do. But it is a wrestling inside of me that I don't know if I'll ever overcome, but I will always choose to go where I know I'm supposed to go and I might be on stage and that might be in a nice chair and an office. I have no idea.
Rodney Olsen (25:03):
Your music, as you say, touches on things that we sometimes don't hear about in church. And that brings me to a great song that you released about Christmas and a very different take on, on a refugee king. Tell us about that song.
Liz Vice (25:19):
Oh man. So like I said, sometimes I get invited into these spaces with songwriters and I'm sitting there feeling like a chump. Like what do they not know that I don't know what I'm doing? Yeah. And we were challenged to rewrite Christmas songs that were more culturally accurate because the birth of Jesus is pretty tragic. A lot of children were killed due to this prophecy that Herod was told that there was going to be a new King in town. And so just to tell the story of Jesus literally with no agenda, it's just like cultural context. His parents had to leave their country to keep this baby safe. The strange thing about this story is that they left their home country to go into a place that their ancestors were once enslaved and this was a place of danger and torment and oppression. And that was where they found safety.
Liz Vice (26:29):
Right? And so you think about people coming to America to find safety and refuge and fulfill this so-called American dream that they've heard through the grapevine and their land. And they come here knowing that they will receive oppression because it's just a given. Your skin colour is your portion in America. And it, it might, it's going to be your curse here. That's just the foundation of America. But I didn't want to release that song with an agenda of, see this is just like immigration. No, it is just the story of Jesus. No place for his parents, no country or tribe. And they ran and they ran and they ran. And I wanted people to interpret the song for themselves. And I definitely have my interpretation of the song, but just laying out the facts as is, people will assume whatever they want about the story and some people will choose to be blind because Jesus in a lot of places is this blonde haired, blue eyed sheep totin' all American hero who's gonna redeem and oppress the bad guys and lift up the good guys. But you have to follow these rules where Jesus really is this country boy, this Jewish country boy from the sticks who had been called a bastard child because they knew Joseph wasn't his real dad. I wonder if he didn't look like a Joseph. He looked more like Mary and they were poor, but he was smart as hell. And they're like, how does this 12 year old know the scripture so well? But no one wants to worship that Jesus. I don't even want to worship that Jesus, but that's the Jesus that I deeply, deeply connect to. Growing up low income, single parent home, one of five kids with the mom that worked multiple jobs. And as a child I made a promise to myself that I would surpass the stereotypes. I am not. And I, I never wanted to be a statistic. And I think because Jesus didn't play by the rule book, that's why he was killed by the very people who should have been respecting and honouring him. So yeah, Merry Christmas.
Rodney Olsen (29:12):
And it's interesting the narrative you're talking about there of this, this, this white blue eyed Jesus who is coming to, to overthrow and take political power is exactly what was expected back in the day. And yet we haven't learned that lesson.
Liz Vice (29:28):
No. Oh my goodness. That is like a whole other podcast that I honestly don't even feel like I'm smart enough to engage in other than speak from my own experience like I, why didn't Jesus overthrow the political powers that be? Why did he allow them to kill him and allow his people to be oppressed? What was it about Jesus where these men were willing to be tortured to death because they loved him? I think about the moment Jesus died on the cross. I would have been heartbroken and absolutely just what was all of this for, to see my very hope dead on the cross, and honestly as I, I've gotten older, I'm like, you know what? I don't blame Thomas. I want to see these scars too because I watched my hope die on a cross and I need to touch these scars because there's, I've never heard of resurrection.
Liz Vice (30:28):
I don't know what redemption of a body means or looks like, even though they saw people come back to life and people healed. So I don't know. And I've seen beautiful things too. I have definitely been blessed in my life. I know I'm in a pandemic, but I have enough savings to survive for as long as I need to, and yet I'm still like, eh. You know what? It really would be nice to just like see some kind of glimmer of hope that Jesus is here involved in this political nightmare and involved in the injustices of my black brothers and sisters involved in people oppressing me when they see me in a grocery store and following me to make sure I don't steal anything. Like what is my role as one who says she follows the Lord but also constantly reminded that I am other and there will never be justice for people that look like me or Brown people in general.
Liz Vice (31:27):
And yeah, it is. It is definitely a, I'm in that place right now wondering like the great prayer of Psalm 13. Oh, how long Lord will you hide your face? Yeah, it is interesting. A cross to bear and, but it's so deep in me like I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Jesus just because I've also seen too much doing music and just in life. Hell, I'm a miracle right now that I'm alive. And I had a pastor remind me that if we were to truly live like Jesus, in essence we would be crucified. So I don't think it's a lot to ask for justice and love, but it is. It is. Not only am I a black person, I'm also a woman. So it's like, Whoa, double portion, Lord, double portion.
Rodney Olsen (32:30):
So even though you, you've almost come to music kicking and screaming and you've done it against this sort of background of this cry of the heart for in mass through you in some way to know that your music is actually bringing people closer to Jesus and not the cardboard cut out Jesus that we see presented so often, but the, the real Jesus who he really is.
Liz Vice (32:53):
Yes, it's easy for other people to see that. But I promise you, I've been so burnt out from this quote unquote call to sing these songs that create a space for all people to come together. Like I remember the first show I ever played, a woman came up to me and said, you almost made me believe in Jesus. Or I've seen grown men cry at a bar saying, I haven't been to church in so long. Or I've had people ask me if my politics and my religious beliefs clash against one another because they didn't understand how I could be so kind to them. And I'm just like, Lord, what have we done? And I don't have any answers other than my own experience. And I don't always feel like I'm actually playing a role in advancing the kingdom. So it's people like you and people who send me messages every single day on social media that kind of give me an idea that maybe I'm a part of something that exemplifies Jesus, but I don't always feel it. Especially now being isolated in an apartment. It's like, what is my role now? Like how do I, is music enough? Are the songs enough, me reposting things about injustices? Is that enough? Is my story enough? I don't know.
Rodney Olsen (34:43):
Liz, it's, it's absolutely a delight to, to chat to you. Thank you so much for, for taking so much time to sharing your heart and that's really what you've done. Thank you so much for the music that you have produced so far and we look forward to, to hearing a whole lot more from you. I know it's a struggle, but I'm hoping that you continue with that struggle because it does a lot of good for people who are yearning to hear the realness of Jesus. So thank you for your time today.
Liz Vice (35:13):
Yeah, thanks Rodney. Thanks for your desire to hear what I have to say. Yeah, I think that's the only way that I'll keep moving forward is people being willing to hear.
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

How does a young boy with a promising future become a thief and a junkie and how does he turn his life around? That's today's episode of Bleeding Daylight.
Jacob Hill was a straight A student with a dream of winning Olympic gold, but his life took a number of unexpected turns, including crime, drug addiction and coming very close to death. Some would say it's a miracle that Jacob is alive today. How did such a talented young man fall so far and how did he turn his life turn around? Today he's a husband, father, author and pastor. Jacob is my guest for this episode of Bleeding Daylight. 
 
 
Jacobs's Book - Kids at War: The Battle of Addiction
Jacob's Website - http://JacobHill.org 
Jacob on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jacobhillofficialpage
 
TRANSCRIPT
Emily Olsen
Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen  0:19 
How does a young boy with a promising future become a thief and a junkie and how does he turn his life around? That's today's episode of Bleeding Daylight.
 
Jacob Hill was a straight A student with a dream of winning Olympic gold, but his life took a number of unexpected turns, including crime, drug addiction and coming very close to death. Some would say it's a miracle that Jacob is alive today. How did such a talented young man fall so far and how did he turn his life turn around? Today he's a husband, father, author and pastor. Jacob is my guest for this episode of Bleeding Daylight.  Welcome.
 
Jacob Hill  1:07 
Thanks so much for having me, Rodney.
 
Rodney Olsen  1:08 
I want to get to know the eager young boy who had such an amazing life stretched out ahead of him. Tell me about those early years.
 
Jacob Hill  1:16 
 Oh gosh. Probably my biggest memory of the sort of the overarching sort of feeling like I carry from my childhood is like you said eager. Like I was just I loved life and life was was good. My parents were amazing and I was taught that I could do anything and the results I was producing was showing it and I just had such a confidence that whatever I put my hand to was gonna succeed at, and so yeah, I just had this is so excited for life and so excited for the future.
 
Rodney Olsen  1:52 
So you studies were going well, and you're also excelling at sport.
 
Jacob Hill  1:56 
So it didn't start out good in school like I look back, it's probably like ADD or dyslexia or something. I remember like every single recess I'd be kept into the finish work off and homework was nightmare but then at some point it sort of clicked and I ended up finishing primary school with straight As pretty much and then High School on a sports scholarship. I was like champion of athletics right through school, I was captain and more school hockey team and the factions and all of that, and the icing on the cake was we went away to high school and hockey scholarship, and we're training at the Commonwealth hockey stadium the big stadium here in Perth four times a week, twice with school, twice with my club playing there on the weekends and sometimes during the week, we'd actually have the Australian hockey team on the other end of the pitch and that was crazy. Like literally seeing my dream like my dream was to play hockey for Australia and literally get to shake hands with like my dream. it was in my mind, it was very, very done.
 
Rodney Olsen  2:53 
So when it came to hockey, what was your biggest dream?
 
Jacob Hill  2:56 
A gold medal. That was that was it. The Australia Kookaburras at that point had won a silver medal. One of the guys played for my club and putting his silver medal on one time, wearing around my neck thinking, wow, this is so good, but I'm gonna go one better. That literally was everything.
 
Rodney Olsen  3:11 
And there was really no doubt in your mind at that stage that that was going to happen.
 
Jacob Hill  3:16 
Not not a fraction of doubt.
 
Rodney Olsen  3:17 
So how could all of that come crashing down? You're in high school, your grades are good, you're rising through the ranks at a rather elite level of playing hockey, how did all that begin to unwind?
 
Jacob Hill  3:30 
So all about the same time, my parents separated, and I developed a disease in my knees. So within a couple of months, the rug was pulled out from under me and I just did not know where I was, who I was, where I belonged. Everything I dreamed about was just gone, and I didn't have a backup plan. My identity was really busted up from my dad leaving because I just sort of thought if he really loved us, he wouldn't have left us and then I sort of you know, just a little kid, 13, really just got the message I wasn't worth loving and then all of the other stuff I'd gotten validation for from my whole life that was gone as well. Because I was never like a real social kid I was always I had plenty of friends and stuff but that was mostly I think because of sport because I was a little bit socially awkward and as much as I tried to put on a confident front I was pretty shy and I totally lost man like just totally lost.
 
Rodney Olsen  4:26 
So in the middle of this your family starting to fall apart and you've lost your dream of representing your country and winning Olympic gold. That also means that hockey team mates that had become your closest friends are all gone as well. Everything's falling away beneath you.
 
Jacob Hill  4:41 
My mates were all guys I trained with and played with. All of a sudden, I couldn't play and I could barely walk for a while, like I could like remember just the pain trying to get upstairs and stuff because I had this growing disease in my knees. Really I felt very, very alone and found myself trying to work out where did I fit in who you know. Like with my dad, sort of, I was always felt like someone's looking at for me, someone sort of keeping me in line a bit someone's believing in me and then with my mates always, you know, felt that camaraderie that real team spirit sort of thing. You get the validation that you get playing sport team sport. And I just like lost both sides of I guess the people that gave me a lot of my identity and and I just really started to look for that I was like. And I wouldn't have been able to tell you that as a 13 year old kid like, but looking back retrospectively that's what I can really see that's what I was doing. That's why I actually settled hanging out with people who were really living a risky lifestyle that I did not agree with. I just wanted to belong like my brother was hanging out with these guys that started smoking pot. They were doing graffiti and petty crime like break and enters and stuff like that. Man, I just wanted to belong I  think .Yeah and I was pretty prepared to do anything to fit in.
 
Rodney Olsen  6:03 
Tell us about your family. Did you know that things weren't great between your parents? Was there any inkling that the marriage was breaking down? And you've mentioned your older brother? Were they just the two siblings?
 
Jacob Hill  6:14 
No at that time, there was my parents, my older brother, who's just a year older than me, and a younger brother who's three years younger. So all around that time, I'm just starting school, high school, sorry. So I'm sort of the end of first year second year. And my brother's in the same school. He was in the same hokey program. My parents had been, I knew that they were separating. So all around that time, we were sort of we were blindsided one time with the conversation, but that was first before the knees. But before that, like my dad was amazing. He'd take us camping all the time, fishing every weekend, he was was at every single game of mine, take me to practice, you know, take us skateboarding and surfing and make sure we do our homework and it just, you know, it could could barely fault the guy on that side of things. And so and I really felt blocked, betrayed by him going, the only reason he could have possibly left, the only rationale I could dig up in my sort of 13 year old mind is that he really didn't care about us. It really rocked the foundation of what I believed about everything in life, who I was, who we were as a family, my Christian faith, because I was brought up in church. It really just scuttled me,
 
Rodney Olsen  7:32 
You mentioned that your older brother had already started mixing with the wrong crowd, and it was around that time that you started dabbling in drugs yourself. Your brother's only a year older than you so you're still both very young. How did the connections into that kind of world begin?
 
Jacob Hill  7:48 
So I atually don't really know how he started to get involved. Whether that was around the time my parents separated, looking back, actually, I'd say that's what's happened. And so he started hanging out with these guys. So he would have been 13, 14 at that point, and then I've sort of joined in with them when I was 13. So he would have been 14 by then. Put a lot of it down to definitely down to the people were hanging out with their peer group but also, had a lot to do with the music we were listening to. We listened to a lot of hip hop. Drugs were glorified. So much of it was talking about how drugs are cool, how they're a way of making money, a way of basically dominating your circumstances. And it also spoke a lot about violence and how violence is you know, the way you get respect and the way you hold respect. You know, we just really identified with that music and with that subculture, trying to emulate these guys. I'd never bothered that I wasn't smoking weed like I never wanted to do it. I didn't have any attract there's just nothing there for me. But I was listening to a song that the there's a line in the song said when you smoke, talking about marijuana, when you smoke like I smoke then you're high like every day and I remember just listening to that song one time, and then just like the penny dropped and I was just like, I'm not one of the guys. Like I'm not like these people and I felt like a real try hard. I just thought you know what today, I'm going to try marijuana because at the bus stop every afternoon the boys would sit in a circle and pass the bong around and I thought today when it gets passed to me, I'm not just going to pass it by I'm actually going to try it. And that afternoon I did that I tried it an interesting side note to is the guy whose pot it was that day, he was a guy I grew up with, and his family is actually the family that got us into playing hockey. He was a really good friend and a really like a huge influence on me growing up, and he actually died of a heroin overdose at the age of 20. So so this is the guy who's you know, it's his pot. I've tried it for the very first time, and this is something where I think young people need to be told about drugs. People don't just go and throw their life away like for no reason. Typically, these drugs have a really solid, immediate payoff, like in the terms of actually getting high like you feel really good. And that first time I got stoned man, it was like all my problems were gone. The pain of my dad leaving just gone. The disappointment of losing my Olympic dream was just gone. I really felt like I fitted in with the guys. And I actually had the thought that very first time I remember like so clearly it was looking back it's almost like it was a thought placed into my head from the outside but it was so clear in my mind, it was like, if I can just keep feeling like this. Everything will be okay. And I was literally addicted to marijuana the very first time I tried it, which some people say that marijuana is not addictive. I tell you I've no idea what they're talking about. But then I had another thought at that same sort of that same day was if this is how good pot is, I wonder how good all the other drugs are. And basically, I went on a quest to, you know, try all these other drugs.
 
Rodney Olsen  11:07 
How do 13, 14, 15 year old boys get their hands on the the sort of money that it takes to buy these drugs?
 
Jacob Hill  11:15 
When I was 13, I started selling for the boys that were older than me to the kids in my year, and I'd sell a certain amount of pot and I'd get a certain amount for free. And when that wasn't working for different reasons, like supply issues, you'd go and do break and enters and, you know, steal from different things and different people and shops and all of that.
 
Rodney Olsen  11:36 
It was really the start of a, I guess, a life of crime at that point.
 
Jacob Hill  11:40 
Yeah, it was it was totally and, you know, when you look at prisons, they're full of the're full, a majority of the people that are in there because of drugs. You wouldn't say it's easy money, but you don't have to be disciplined to make enough money to get by. So whereas if you've got a job, you've got to wake up at a certain time do what the boss says that you know in all of this, when you just do it that life you wake up when you want to go out and do it. For someone who's already emotionally crippled to the point where they're, you know, self medicating which and that's all that drug addiction is is you've got people that are in such bad shape they're self medicating to escape from this situation emotionally.
 
Rodney Olsen  12:20 
You've mentioned that you were on a quest to try a variety of drugs. The Verve had a song some years ago titled The Drugs Don't Work. Did that ever become your experience?
 
Jacob Hill  12:31 
Yeah, they stopped soon enough. You get a tolerance built up. The problem with it is is that well, there's a lot multiple problems but the first sort of problem is is when the drug stopped working and and by that I mean they they effectively they stop covering the pain is really I think, the simplest way of putting it. That is you can imagine you're in even medicine will tell you this, you you're taking painkillers for pain and you take them a long  time enough and your tolerance keeps building up, you need to take more and more of them to deal with that pain. If you keep doing it long enough that will stop dealing with the pain and that's what happened to me like the marijuana stopped making me feel good and the alcohol stopped making me feel good and the pills I was popping and acid and everything was it wasn't making me feel good anymore. But at the same time, I couldn't not use them because not using them made me feel even worse. So it was almost like now you've got no payoff for using drugs, except that you don't get the really horrible withdrawals or the really horrible problem of being straight. And basically what happened from there was, I think I was 16 and I made a decision. I was like, I felt so stuck. I was like, I need to get high. All of these drugs aren't doing it. I'm going to try heroin. And I knew what that meant. I knew that heroin was super addictive, I knew that it's super expensive, super dangerous. 'Cause I was a smart enough little kid as well, like, actually weighed it up and thought, you know, the pros and the cons. And I knew that there was no upside to this. But I still did not feel like I had another choice because I didn't realize that I could stop using drugs. That That wasn't in my in the equation. So it was just like, well, the only solution I could say was to go harder, even though I knew it was going to cost me everything. So I did it. I started using heroin. The very first time I shot heroin, I was 16 and I had that same feeling not the same high, but that same sort of thought that if I could just keep feeling like this, everything will be okay. It made me feel great for a little while, but you know, sure enough that that stopped working as well. You know, after a period of after a period of time,
 
Rodney Olsen  14:54 
I believe that during these times you even tried taking your own life a couple of times.
 
Jacob Hill  14:59 
Oh it cooks your head. Like, I mean you're dealing with people like in my situation you're dealing with a young guy who already was massively insecure. Any drive I had was gone. I saw no hope for the future. I'd ruined so many opportunities. I dropped out of school. You just look at some of the logical stuff. You've got someone who's going to be pretty low emotionally, then you chuck in all of those psychedelic chemicals and in such strong you know, drugs you're putting into a developing mind. I mean, being a kid's hard enough. You know, you know, being 16, 17 is hard enough when you're doing everything right. But yeah, you mix those those chemicals in with some real lifestyle challenges, on top of the you know, the the insecurities and on top of all the I was like flat out suicidal. First time I tried to end my life I was 17. I remember just sort of just not seeing a way out. My mates are starting to go to jail. They're starting to die of overdoses. People are starting to get hepatitis C. Getting kicked out of home. Like I literally could see no way out like way before when I could see no way out or there's like there was heroin, at least I could use heroin to make me feel okay. Now at this point where I was on heroin, and it wasn't doing it for me. I just, I could say nothing. Well, I might as well end my life. What's the point of sticking around here for to, you know, to live like this. And yeah, I made a genuine attempted suicide and praise God, it didn't work, but I was put in great lengths mental institution, I was there for a while. I came out of there, and just nothing like yours just went right back to it.
 
Rodney Olsen  16:45 
So even after having to spend time in a mental Institute, you didn't have reason to think well, this isn't working? I need to stop this kind of self destructive life? Were you still thinking there was no way out?
 
Jacob Hill  16:57 
Yeah, well, to be really honest and I have to be pretty honest with myself in saying this, as much as you want to get off because we you need to because you know, just just plain logic tells you that part of it was is actually didn't want to get out. Because partially because that's all I had known from quite a young age like from 13 my whole group of friends were in that lifestyle. I would I didn't know this at the time, but I've just, you know, from conversations I've had with guys trying to help them step off drugs, we actually get really scared of like, what will life be like without drugs? Can I handle this? Can I How can I function like in my own mind? And so you've got this medley of reasons, why quitting doesn't seem to be a viable choice. And yeah, and literally I've left there and nothing changed.
 
Rodney Olsen  17:52 
In your book, Kids at War, the Battle of Addiction, you describe an overdose that nearly took your life. I believe it was one person's actions that was the difference between life and death for you.
 
Jacob Hill  18:04 
Yeah, I overdosed after a party one night and I was y'know rushed to hospital. I was dead by the time the paramedics got to this guy's house. So what's happened is I was at this party. We've gone back to my mate's house. I was asleep on the couch, and someone's woken up my friend whose house it was and I said, can you come and wake up Jacob? He's snoring too loud. I can't sleep. I can't wake him up. Can you come and sort him out. So they're basically just wanted my friend to wake me up not out of concern for my health, but because that was keeping them awake. But he's come and he's heard this noise that they've complained about that was snoring. And he knows this sound, because the year before he was at a mate's house kicking it, watching a movie, doing some drugs. This guy falls asleep, and my my friend thinks nothing of it. And then this guy starts to what he thinks is snore, and he thinks nothing of it. But after a while he realizes something's seriously wrong and he tries to wake him up, he won't wake up. He rings the ambulance. By the time the ambulance gets there this blokes dead, 18 years of age. So when he's come out and he's heard the noise that they thought was snoring, and so he knows straightaway that this guy's not snoring, he's drowning. So what happens is you're unconscious you're laying on your back, you start to regurgitate, and then you breathe that in, you're literally drowning in your own vomit. And he knew straight away so he's jumped straight on the phone, rang the ambulance. By the time the ambulance has got to his place, I'm dead. They've had to revive me. I died a few more times. My mom is called. They said there's no chance I'm going to survive. Had I been dead for too long, basically, the oxygen I bought my body, my brain and my organs had been without oxygen. Mostly my brain had been without oxygen for too long. And there was just no way I was going to survive and they've put a piece of paper in front of her, which is they're asking her to sign a permission waiver from them to give away my organs. She didn't, which I'm pretty grateful for. But so I've pulled through about I was in a coma for a week but I've pulled through, and I've woken up. I had to learn how to walk again to learn how to breathe again. But the day I could walk, I walked straight out of the hospital and went right back to it. Yes, it was like not a lesson was learned. And even when I was in that hospital, I remember there was a lady come to me, counselor, and she's said, you need help, you know, and I said, what do I need help for? And she's like for your drug problem. And I said, lady, I don't have a drug problem. I like using drugs. Leave me alone.
 
Rodney Olsen  20:38 
So you've been committed to a mental institution and gone straight back to using drugs. You've overdosed, been in a coma for a week connected to machines and gone straight back to using drugs, Seen others that you know, lose their lives by doing the same sorts of things that you're doing, yet you're still taking drugs. Nothing so far has shaken you hard enough to change. What would finally shake you to the point of saying, enough's enough, something needs to be done.
 
Jacob Hill  21:06 
This is actually my mom. I needed some money one time and I'd ask her went and asked her for it, which I hadn't asked her for money since I was a kid since I was living at home in school, but now I was 21. I've been out of home since I was 17. And for some reason, I've gone and asked her for the money. She's told me that she doesn't want to talk to me again until I'm in rehab. And I thought, well, rehab doesn't work. Once a junkie, always a junkie, but for her, I'll give it a go. And to be really fair, I wasn't actually giving it a go to try to get off them. I was actually giving it a go, so it was way would have proved to me my theory that I was I was a lost cause basically. And I was really just thinking, this is just going to validate everything. I've thought. I'm going to do this thing go there for a few weeks. It's not going to work, and I'm just gonna come out and I'm gonna go as hard as I can till I'm dead basically. That was my my plan. Sure for you all go, but don't expect it to work.
 
Rodney Olsen  22:05 
Your book talks about the moment that you were given a decision about which rehab to go to and the strange decision that you made at the time.
 
Jacob Hill  22:12 
Yeah, the whole rehabs, like structure and system was pretty crazy in my mind, who knows? I was probably the crazy one but I was struggling to work all this thing. My normal counselor lady was she saying I couldn't get into rehab because I was using too much drugs. Like you need to go to a detox clinic, but I was using too much drugs to get into the detox clinic. So I need to use less drugs. So I could get into the detox clinic so they could detox me to get me into a rehab. And I'm thinking if I could use less drugs, or wouldn't he people. One of the weeks I go to the clinic was a different lady there. And she I'm sort of thinking, ah, if I lie to this lady, about how much drugs I'm using, she might put me straight into the detox centre or straight into the rehab or something. So when she's asked me how much I'm doing and everything I'm telling her just what I think she wants to hear. But then she says, I think Teen Challenge would be good for you. Now I'd heard about Teen Challenge a few years earlier, where I heard someone saying that they had gotten off heroin at Teen Challenge. And I remember at the time, just thinking what a pile of rubbish, but I do remember them saying that they met God at Teen Challenge, and God helped them get off heroin. And I remember just bad mouthing them in public. You know what, while they were saying it, but this lady said Teen Challenge, and I instantly remembered this. And then I'm like, are you a Christian? Are you trying to push God on me? She's like, No, no, no, we'll find you somewhere else. But it was like that little split microsecond between are you trying to push God on me and her saying, No, no, it was in that little, that little moment. I remember so clearly, just like everything slowed down and got quiet for a minute. I had a little conversation inside my head with God and it was just like, Man, this chick had talked about a miracle, like about God helping her get off heroin. And if that happened, that was a miracle. And I was thinking, the only way this is gonna happen is a miracle because I didn't even want to stop using. As much as I hated the life that I was. It was just, it was all I knew. And I remember that little split second to saying to God as a God, if you're real, you can make me stop wanting to use drugs. And I said, if you do that I'll serve you for the rest of my life. She's like, no, no we'll find you somewhere else. I'm like, No, no, give me give me the God place and she's like, no, no, no, we'll find it somewhere else and lady, give me the God place. And I don't remember much from there to, but it was a couple of months later ended up down at Teen Challenge and then the fun really started.
 
Rodney Olsen  24:43 
I understand you were picked up by a young guy who you thought fitted all the Christian stereotypes.
 
Jacob Hill  24:48 
Good Christian boy. Yeah. So like, I know this is a Christian place. I'm like, prepared for a bit of God stuff. And this little Vietnamese guy. He's the one that collects me from, it's a 10 hour bus ride, Rodney. So he comes he collects me from from the bus. He was so clean cut. Look, he just was like a church boy looking kid and I'm just like, oh my goodness, I remember just feeling so hopeless at that point. I was like, this guy looks like he's never even had panadol and just thinking, how can he help me? But then I got talking with him and he'd had the same, he was into the same stuff I'd been into. He'd been through the gangs and dealing heroin and you know, all sorts of nasty business. It's like to talk to him, you would never in a million years think he had a habit. Like he was just like, whoa, this guy's the real deal. And I remember it was this on the literally on the drive out there where I made we're actually had the thoughts like, wow, this is possible. I can do this. Like if it happened for him, it can happen for me.
 
Rodney Olsen  25:47 
All this time you've thought that there is no hope for people like you who are addicted to a life of drugs yet he's living proof of that change being possible.
 
Jacob Hill  25:56 
Yeah, right in front of me and saying he'll walk alongside me through it too.
 
Rodney Olsen  26:00 
So you're talking about having to detox from everything you'd been pumping into your body and you'd lied to get there because you understated what drugs you are taking. So they don't even know what they're dealing with when you walk through the front door.
 
Jacob Hill  26:13 
Oh man I was sick. So I taken a bunch of drugs that day. I've slept fine that night. But man after that, I did not sleep well. So the first morning was probably the start of the wake up call. So someone's knocked on my door at seven o'clock in the morning. And I'd be like, the only time I'd ever be up at seven o'clock because if I hadn't made a bed yet. So I'm like, this guy's knocked my door seven o'clock saying it's time to wake up and I just sort of went off my brain at him. I just like get out of, this is like one of the staff members, like get out of my bleeping room or I'll cut your bleeping throat. Anyway, he left, I didn't see him again for the day, but for that morning, and they let me sleep it off. And I mean, that was the last time I slept for so long. And I remember for that first couple of weeks just so so sick Rodney like, man, like there'll be times where I literally fall to the ground, my muscles or my body and my body just totally seizes up cramping to the point where I'm actually curled into a little ball. Like not my choice and shaking and feeling like I was being electrocuted and stuff. And like I just be every chance I got I'll just find a piece of sun to go and lay in just because like I was sick man about I wasn't sleeping either. I remember like every night used to be like looking forward to going to bed because I was so tired. But then not sleeping. Like the amount of times I watched the sun come up. It was months before I could sleep again. It was horrific.
 
Rodney Olsen  27:45 
You said that you believed only a miracle could turn your life around. This supposed cure is sounding pretty horrific. So when did the miracle come?
 
Jacob Hill  27:54 
I reckon it came when I met that guy at the bus stop because the night before I left, I'd popped my shoulder out in a fight so I dislocated my shoulder and I've gone to the, you know, which didn't help the sleeping situation, and so they've taken me to the doctors and I have the you know the option for some something to help with the pain and sleeping. I'm like now I don't want any of that stuff but I don't want anything to help me sleep. I don't want anything to help with the pain. I just want to be have nothing to do with with drugs even the prescribed stuff that they get I don't want anything and so it was like literally that straightaway I just said look no taste for it at all. Even though I had to go through the detox the physical side of it. Emotionally I was done with it like I was I was through it. Yeah, I mean, like not learning how to live like a healthy life or anything but the as far as wanting drugs, I was done like day one.
 
Rodney Olsen  28:51 
So after the the horror of the detox, it was then a matter of learning how to live a healthy life. What did that mean for you?
 
Jacob Hill  28:59 
Well, I talked about That detox and it's like it sounds pretty bad and go I'm looking back it was terrible. But that was the easy bit. But you can make your body do stuff you know you just got to watch a marathon and you see some people doing some pretty incredible things and but the the real hard thing for me was the emotional stuff because you got to remember that it was the emotional stuff is why I got onto drugs in the first place. And it was the emotional stuff is why I kept going harder and kept using more and more. I'll tell you the biggest the biggest key to the whole thing was learning that I was made on purpose by a God who loved me and had a plan for my life. That was the the biggest key and I really struggled to believe it though that are you know, on heaps of levels. But having that nugget is what got me through like that is still today is was what gets me through.
 
Rodney Olsen  29:58 
What age are you at this point?
 
Jacob Hill  30:00 
I went in there at 21. And it took me 14 months to finish the program. So I finished it and I just turned 23
 
Rodney Olsen  30:10 
Here you are at that point of learning the basics of how to live a normal, healthy life. You're a 21 year old man having to deal with the emotional baggage of a 12 or 13 year old that had never been dealt with.
 
Jacob Hill  30:23 
Yeah, flat out like, basically once you start checking out with drugs, you don't mature past that point to a degree because that's how we learn. Like we have a problem. We work our way through it, and we've grown it's called maturing and yeah, and I just did not do that process. So it's one of the things you see about Teen Challenge is it doesn't matter what age the bloke gets down there, they've actually just changed the name of it to Adult and Teen Challenge because they're just finding more and more grown men going in there. To a large extent they've all got the psychology of a you know of someone in their mid teens because of exactly what you said like that not growing past emotionally,
 
Rodney Olsen  31:03 
It's an interesting journey that you've been on and as I said, you thought only a miracle could make you change. You've mentioned that you had to come to an understanding that you were created on purpose and that there was a God that loved you. So, how did that finally settle for you? When did all of that begin to make some kind of sense?
 
Jacob Hill  31:22 
Gosh, good question. So take it back before I went to Teen Challenge, and you're talking about, you know, all these crazy things that happened and you know, like the hospitals the mental institutions and the overdoses and all of that stuff and people look like a you know, say well you know, these surely that was your rock bottom moment. Now, surely that was a rock bottom moment, like my lowest point in life, was driving down the along the freeway with one of my mates and the song came on the radio, Grinspoon, and the lyric went something like this. It's like were you born to be a star? Were you born to be more than you are? And I remember listening to that song and knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that i and this is someone who flat out drug addict on our way to score, some heroin, breaking every speed, like every law on the road to get to this place quicker and at that point, I remember like just knowing that I was meant I was made for something special. I was made for something more. I was made to do something important. And I could see no way of getting there. I had this drug problem, I had no education. I had no drive. It was just like, that was my lowest point, realizing I was meant for something and not having any awareness of how I could get there.
 
Rodney Olsen  32:43 
I know that you had a little bit of a picture of what you were meant for. Tell us about that picture that you carried with you in your mind.
 
Jacob Hill  32:50 
I had this picture of like, what I would actually like for a life. I saw a girl who would love me for me. That was just that was like that desire in my heart. I wanted a family. Wanted my own kids like two boys was actually what I just this image I saw. My own house where I couldn't get kicked out of anymore. A job that I didn't hate, not even one that I liked. That wasn't that wasn't even the dream. It was just a job I didn't hate. And I remember that, seeing that picture. And that was so far from possible in my mind that I attempted suicide. But as I've started to get my life back on track at Teen Challenge like that, there was a sniff of it, you know, like it was like, well, God's got a good plan for my life and he can get me there as well as starting to wake up that those feelings like now I can be doing I can do something significant with my life. My life can make it like be called to make a difference in the lives of a lot of people.
 
Rodney Olsen  33:44 
So you've had this picture of a wife or a couple of sons a job that you don't hate. You've now been through all the detox, you've been through the rehab. we fast forward quite a number of years to the current day. What does life look like for you now?
 
Jacob Hill  33:59 
It looks remarkably similar to that picture. But it was about five or six years ago, I remember that picture came to mind and I was just like, Whoa, this is my life now. Happily married, built our own home, our two little boys and it was literally like that dream that was impossible was now not just, a potential, it was like I was living it. So and it was just like, far out. The Impossible is real. Like, I'm literally living this impossible dream and it's now tangible and I live in the house, and I tuck those boys into bed every night. And it was a dog in the picture as well. And I got a really cool dog. But that was just like, Whoa, I was just like, it's time to dream again. And I went back to the drawing board. It was just like, open up my heart as like, right. Like, I know that I wasn't just created to have my 2.4 kids and my own little piece of Australia. I was like, I am created to do amazing things. And I went back to the drawing board and at that time, I was pastoring a church, the church where I'm still pastoring now, but as a young guy that was literally my dream job. Forget about a job I didn't hate it was like my dream job. And I've, you know, just dreamt again and put some a few more things on paper and then God sort of added some surprises to it. We had a beautiful little girl. And now, I still pastor the church, but I'm off staff at the church, I'm not staff anymore. And I run my own company, Purpose and Destiny, which, you know, the goal of it is, is to help people discover their purpose in life and empower them to fulfill their destiny through some of the keys that I've learned, you know, bunch of facets, like through drug education in schools to sharing my story, as well as, you know, speaking at church and it but on top of that, doing this stuff that I was doing before that was great. It's not like got rid of stuff, doing new stuff. It's just like adding to my life.
 
Rodney Olsen  35:46 
Someone listening right now might think, well, that's great for you, but can it work for anyone else? I mean, let's admit it, you had seen maybe one or two people who had been able to kick heroin but you didn't really believe that that was possible, especially for you. So someone listening might be thinking, well for me that's just not possible. Someone else listening might be thinking there's someone that I love who's addicted. Is it possible for them really possible? What would you say?
 
Jacob Hill  36:12 
Well, I'd seen zero people that have gotten off. That one girl who I saw her but I didn't actually believe it for I know now and yes, it worked. So to really understand it, my both of my brothers went down the same road I went down and my my little brother he started using. The first time he was busted selling drugs, he was like nine or 10 years old. They both ended up heroin addicts as well. Today, my both of my brothers have been through Teen Challenge are off drugs. Got, you know, beautiful families, own their own homes, like just just doing well in life. My friend who rang the ambulance for me, he's off drugs. He actually goes to church with us. And a real kicker was I just realized the other day. That guy that I was driving in the car with when I say that song came on and you know where I had that where were you born to be a star that guy he's been through Teen Challenge as well. He's off heroin too now and he's married happily married and man, God is it if He's done it for one person, he'll do it for anybody. But to take it one step further my wife Melissa, her story basically reflects mine perfectly. Change a few names a few dates, a few details her life is is exactly the same as mine she, and then she's going through Teen Challenge, encountered God, kicked drugs and alcohol addiction and really had a radical transformation and now she you know, she's so she's another one. So there's definitely is good for me, but I'm not alone.
 
Rodney Olsen  37:46 
It's good to know that there is hope available for people who have thought that things are hopeless. If someone is wanting to perhaps get in touch with you and talk through some of the things that you've experienced that would help them on their way or even get a hold of your books? How would they do that?
 
Jacob Hill  38:03 
Probably the easiest way would be, maybe jump on my website, which is JacobHill.org and there's a connect page there. Or, you know, if they look me up on Facebook, and I'm pretty good at responding to the messages and stuff.
 
Rodney Olsen  38:17 
Jacob, your life has certainly had many ups and quite a few downs and I'm sure that it's still not a perfect life, but it's in a very different place to where it was. You say that really, it came down to a miracle and that miracle is still happening every day.
 
Jacob Hill  38:32 
Man, I get to see it every day. I've got friends that are still in the scene and I you know, I still pray for them and I still hope and believe that they'll come through it and I watch them over the years. I watch them just one at a time just coming through it.
 
Rodney Olsen  38:47 
Jacob, thank you so much for your time today. As I mentioned, you've written your story down into a book that people can grab hold of if they want to read through and get some of the stories in a bit more detail. It's called Kids at War, the Battle of Addiction and It's it's a great read. We look forward to seeing where this miracle will take you next. It's been an absolute delight to chat with you.
 
Jacob Hill  39:07 
Thanks heaps for having me, Rodney.
 
Emily Olsen  39:10 
Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Richmond Wandera is a remarkable man. His life was torn apart by violence and poverty. One act by a 15 year old girl began the healing that transformed his life and the lives of those around him. In this episode of Bleeding Daylight he tells his incredible story in his own words.
Richmond speaks honestly about the day he lost his father, his home and his childhood. He discusses the devastating effects of poverty and the part we can all play in seeing the end of extreme poverty.
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen
Richmond Wandera has an incredible story to tell. He's the senior pastor of new life Baptist Church in Kampala, Uganda, and is the founder and director of Pastors Discipleship Network, a non-profit that serves, equips and trains thousands of pastors across East Africa.
 
He has a master's degree in spiritual formation from Moody Graduate and Theological Seminary in Chicago and holds a PhD in philosophy of leadership from Lancaster Bible College and Capital Seminary.
 
Now it might sound like Richmond has lead an extraordinary life and he has but perhaps not in the ways that you might think. His childhood was painful and challenging, marked by extreme poverty, illness, loss and hopelessness.
 
His family often went without food. He suffered from malaria almost a dozen times. Violence visited their home in a tragic way. And today, we get to spend a little bit of time unravelling some of that story. Richmond, thank you so much for your time.
 
Richmond Wandera
Thank you, Rodney. I'm happy to be here.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to talk about that moment, when as an 8 year old your life came crashing down, but before that, what are your memories as a young boy?
 
Richmond Wandera   
I was the third born of six children and I was born to a mother who was married off at a very, very young age at the age of 17. By the time she was 25, she had six children and I was a third born of that, as I already said. But my father, he was a lawyer, okay, and he was able to provide for our family.
 
So he wasn't the typical lawyer that you'd imagine with a suit and tie and you know, all of that, no, no. He was the kind of person who couldn't wait to take off the tie and who couldn't wait to take off the suit.
 
And I recall two specific instances with my dad. Us driving to watch his favourite team play and he's going clearly over the speed limit and we're at the back slamming the side of the car saying KCC, KCC because that was his favorite football team and it was all chaotic, but it was fun.
 
And I do remember that the time when he believed that he could lift all six of us and my mother our bed and he tried and we knew he hadn't succeeded but he believed he had. So I do remember very, very fond memories of my dad and my mom. And Rodney, we were really one united family heading towards a bright future until all that changed.
 
Rodney Olsen  
Tell me how that changed.
 
Richmond Wandera 
I was eight years old when I was rushed out of school, only to come home and find that my mother and father we're not around yet there were a lot of people gathered around the house and people were crying and wailing and they'd put three massive old pieces of wood in front of our house and lit them on fire.
 
In Uganda when you see that, you know that death has come to that home and I did not know who died. I did not know what happened and then it dawned on me when I saw the blood in front of our home that someone has been taken away from our home.
 
Oh Rodney, I learnt later that day that my father had been murdered in the presence of my mom, and my mom was in hospital for witnessing what my father had to experience.
 
Something happened to her body. She changed. On that day it seemed like I'd lost both my parents my father, physically he was killed and murdered. But my mom emotionally and psychologically she was not the same.
 
My mom was the kind of woman you called when you're having a bad day, she was sunshine, she could talk your ear off. She was very loud and happy but Rodney, the woman who returned home, my mother, she was different.
 
She was quiet. She was subdued. She was not laughing anymore and Rodney, that really affected us. Not just the loss of my dad, but the change of my mom and we began to experience some forms of injustice that are hard to describe.
 
I think the first one was when my mother tried to get the benefits from my father's work and she was told she had to pay money for those benefits to be processed out and she ended up not take getting a penny for my father's work.
 
The other thing that happened was my uncle who should have taken care of us was in financial problems about that time and he ended up taking what belonged to my father, my father suits my father's clothing, the furniture at home and basically sold all of that to take care of his own financial problems, leaving my mother and her six children in a more desperate place.
 
Rodney Olsen
There was six of you children, what was the age range?
 
Richmond Wandera
The oldest was 12 while the youngest was one.
 
Rodney Olsen
So you've got a 12 year old older sibling was that brother or sister?
 
Richmond Wandera
 Brother.
 
Rodney Olsen
You're eight, in the middle there and you have a one year old. So seeing this with your mother, you're not only having to process your own grief and as an eight year old, I guess that was a difficult thing enough, but trying to process what was happening with your mom,
 
Richmond Wandera
Again, we had seen women in the community be abused, and unfortunately, women have been looked at, categorized and sadly, completely abused in in our cultural space. Now that's changing, thank God,but, but by the time this was happening, women were not regarded as having equal rights as men.
 
It was hard to see my mother just in tears and she's just helplessly trapped. She couldn't talk to any of the elders or any of the community leaders or any of the people in the tribal group that were in a place of influence, because she was a woman, she basically did exactly as she was told and so it was hard to see that.
 
So she is already in a place of difficulty, having lost her husband, and now six children are hanging on to her for hope, as well as all this injustice that's coming to our home. We're in a government system that does not provide welfare to people in her state. And so she's actually in this place of total devastation. Her health is not good and so Rodney, it was in this time, that the worst came when we were asked to leave the home, because we only had that house that we're living in because of my father's work. And once he was out of the picture, we had to leave the house and that's how we ended up in Nagaru Slum.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to explore that slum and find out a bit about it. But, but first, maybe some background because this is all happening against a background of what's happening in Uganda at the time. Tell us, tell us about your country.
 
Richmond Wandera  
You're right, Rodney. This is happening against a very massively dark background. 1971 was the beginning of a reign of Idi Amin who was a brutal dictator and he ruled the country for nine long years.
 
Many people at the time thought it was the end of the world because of so much death and the reckless behaviour of the soldiers and the army and the killings that just were unending.
 
But 1979 when Idi Amin was overthrown, it plunged us into a new era of another form of darkness, which was again continued reckless death but it just really was a season where we had so many presidents each coming in as a rebel leader and no one coming in by the vote.
 
In between 1979 and 1986, we saw another very dark period. I think the height of the war in Uganda happened in 1986, which is popularly known as the Luwero Triangle War, where two rebel groups who are pressing against the government simultaneously. Again, this is a long period 1971 to now 1986 a whole period of just death in the country, and many people fearing for their future and so that has now caused Uganda to be the world's second leading country, with the youngest population right under Benin.
 
70% Rodney, listen, 70% of my nation's population is below the age of 30 years and 50% of the 70% is below the age of 15.
 
So we have a very young population, but this has come as a result of long standing civil war and in the midst of this background that our story is happening and so it's not just a crisis within our home, but it's a crisis of the nation.
 
Rodney Olsen
The nation's in crisis your family's in absolute crisis, and as you say, you end up in a slum paint us a picture of that slum.
 
Richmond Wandera
Nagaru Slum was regarded by many as the forgotten community. I mean, it's a valley of over 19,000 homes but each home, not having a space more than five by five meters.
 
No home was that size and moreover, it was small homes one after another, a whole line of homes probably sharing the same toilet, and no places for children to play. No hygiene, no hospitals. It was a place where most kids do not go to school and so everybody knew if it is crime or drugs or whatever you thought of this gang activity as more from Naguru.
 
The police and the government had in some way kind of given up on that community. So when my mother said to us, we found a space in Naguru where we will move to you can imagine the fear that ended our hearts as children. We're going to Naguru this place and indeed when we arrived, I remember walking into our house and looking around and all the eyes of the community just looking at us like, "who are these people coming in" and so we’re those coming in and I entered in saw this one roomed house, and I saw what seemed like sunrays pressing through the iron sheets, as like what happened when it rains.
 
Rodney, I was soon to find out because not all long after that our rainy season kicked in and I recall one night the rain being so strong, the wind being too too strong that our center iron sheet was not able to bear that wind and it was literally blown off the roof.
 
Rodney our home just became one giant bucket. I remember us picking up whatever we could and basically standing with those clothes and blankets and those items right close to our shoulders and our chest and standing on the side of the house as the rain came through.
 
We couldn't run out because it was dark and lightning and thunder and wind. We couldn't stay in and it was that night, Rodney, that I felt like I had lost myself.
 
When I reflect on what I was lost that night, I think I didn't just lose dignity but I lost identity. I lost who I was that kind of almost like life was just screaming angrily against against me as a child.
 
Two other things that I could say is my constant waking up in the morning and fearing because of the bumps of mosquito bites on my skin that I would get sick of malaria. I've seen so many kids died from malaria. And after my mom had said to us, there's no more money for food, I remember just going out and spending a lot of time on the street trying to survive and I wouldn't wish that on any child., No child, Rodney, should live through life like that. Not in a world that has the resources that we have.
 
Rodney Olsen
We often imagine poverty as, as a lack of resources as a lack of stuff so to speak, but you're talking about something that's much deeper than that.
 
Richmond Wandera   
Absolutely. Rodney, again, most people if you ask them define poverty or describe poverty, they'll use very physical descriptors for that. They say poverty is a lack of food, it's a lack of clothing. It's a lack of roof over your head, it's a lack of having that shelter and while that is true, that's only one side of poverty.
 
I think the real monster and the most devastating side of poverty is the invisible side. It's that voice. For me. It was like an ugly voice that constantly spoke to me I couldn't escape it, that I was nothing. I was unwanted. Nobody knew my name. Nobody wanted to know my name.
 
Every time I thought of something happy or what I want to be in the future, it's just you didn't even have food the previous night. You're not sure you're gonna have food tonight. What are you thinking about? Dreaming about a future and you? It just makes it feel like you're a joke like you completely, like you don't exist.
 
I remember Mother Teresa saying that, feeling forgotten, and feeling unwanted. is a much greater poverty than the lack of food. Rodney, I totally agree with Mother Teresa's words because I know what that felt like.
 
Rodney Olsen
How does that eight year old living in those sort of circumstances, having poverty speak to you daily about you not being worth anything, how does that boy become the man that sits before us today?
 
Richmond Wandera 
Well, it's just a beautiful thing, what happens when people choose to act. You know, I think everybody's looking at this and nobody's actually surprised that there is poverty in the world and that there are people who are suffering. But I think the story becomes beautiful when people act and not just empathize or have compassion.
 
So I was only about nine years old now and my mother hears that there is a church in the neighbourhood that supports children. Now remember, my mother is was a woman without faith, and my father didn't believe in God and we all were just in a space where we believed in our old African tradition and just looked at people at churches like go there, those are those people and we just just didn't connect with them at all.
 
And Rodney to describe the courage that my mother took it was, it's like me being a Christian today walking into like a Buddhist temple or something asking for help for my children. It's weird because it's like okay when I enter that, what will I find? Am I allowed to greet as a woman, am I allowed to, to greet the vicar, or the pastor, and what do I say? I mean, it's just very weird walking into a space, which practices a different spiritual expression from you. It's scary. But my mother because she was desperate, she walks into this space and says, "Look, I'm desperate. This is my story. If you guys can help, please do".
 
And Rodney, my mother was surprised she was surprised at how fast the Compassion workers at the local church came to our home and they came with cameras and with pictures, I mean with files and they took our birthday information and background of us as a family. And they took pictures of us Rodney. I remember standing in front of this camera and the flash went off and I felt like hope was coming felt like hope was coming and indeed three and a half months after that, we got the news we got the news that a, listen, and this this gets gives me chills just saying, that a 15 year old girl called Heather had decided to sponsor me.
 
Just thinking about that just grips me a fresh all the time that my life was rescued by one act of a 15 year old girl and when my mother was told she almost fell off the chair. She's like this could easily be my daughter. And Rodney, I can't get, I fail to get my mind around that. I mean, if you think about most 15 year olds and what they think about themselves, but also what other people think about 15 year olds, they don't give them a lot of credit.
 
They keep saying to them look when you're older when you're 24, 25 and you've got a job and you have some spare income, then you will make a difference, then you'll change the world, then you can be a part of this fight. But at the age of 15, Heather, she had the maturity to take a babysitting job. And out of that, was able to take care of me. For me, , that's wild. It's beyond my understanding, but it's shaped what I believe today about 15 year olds.
 
Rodney Olsen
Do you think sometimes we don't expect enough from our teenagers from our 15 year olds, 14 year olds, 18 year olds?
 
Richmond Wandera
Absolutely. Absolutely. Rodney, I believe just in that can be seen from how we treat them, and how we organize programs for them and what opportunities we provide for them to make a difference.
 
It's evident wherever you see or wherever you turn, that 15 year olds are treated as those who will make a difference later and not today, and we've got to change that. We've got to change that. We've got to call a 15 year old and say, "You have everything now to do whatever God has called you to do right now. Whatever your passion is, or whatever the impact that's lined up for you to do right now you can do it right now." And Rodney, I'll tell you one way I am doing that in my community. So young kids when they reach the age of 14, I begin to call them sir. And people wonder why are you calling this kid sir but I, the whole posture changes.
 
When I'm the Senior Pastor right now the church that rescued me as a kid, when I come up, I'm usually dressed up as expected in my community that I will be it no matter how hot it is, I'm dressed a certain way. But I look at this 14 year old I say good morning, sir and Rodney, there is a physical impact of that word. I mean, you just see them standing before you say ah, immediately almost speak responsibility to them. And Rodney this, what I'm finding that when you look at a 15 year old and say you have now all that you need to make a difference right now sir. Really? The world doesn't say that to me. The school doesn't say that to me. Clearly my peers don't say that to me. You saying that to me? What do you see that I don't see? And so teenagers can change the world. And one teenager changed my world.
 
Rodney Olsen
How did that change look for you? Once you found out Heather, a 15 year old girl who didn't have the capacity to sponsor you, but said, I'm going to and I'm going to take a babysitting job to do that. How did that start to change your world?
 
Richmond Wandera 
You know, when Heather took a babysitting job to sponsor me, she was able to provide Compassion International with $48 a month, and from that Compassion was able to send that money to the local church in my community and that local church was able to provide very specific needs that I had.
 
The first one was food. You know, food is so basic, and if you live in a country where food is available, easily accessible, this point is not as strong but it is an extremely strong point. If you live in a country where people have died from starvation, and so food was provided for me, health care was provided for me. I still remember my health care number UG 129/0064 I can never forget that because it was given to me and said Richmond anytime you fall sick, don't even run to church or run to the Compassion project run to any dispensary or hospital around you. They will they all have our list of sponsored kids and hey, they'll take care of you and don't worry about the bill. And Rodney that was, the second benefit.
 
So first was education was was food second was health. The third was education. Rodney, in our country, Uganda. If you don't have money to go to school, the doors are closed, and until someone with the ability to open those doors shows up, the doors remain closed.
 
For me, Heather, she was half the way around the world but because of her generous sacrifice, I was told Richmond, you can now go back to school. This is gonna be your scholastic materials, and I was given a school uniform and I still have a picture of myself running to school and it changed and unlocked my potential in massive ways. But then the other thing is I got a chance to be a child again.
 
My time on the street had ripped childhood off of me completely and there was no time to be a child because I had to provide for my sister and my brothers, I had to protect them. There's no time to be a child, but here I was now in a space where there are merry go rounds, the see saws and it's a church, it's a safe place, and there I was and I was also under the care of people who were not necessarily paid to take care of children, but they felt it was a calling from God to take care of children and so they would work extra hours without any additional pay. They do this work and take care. And Rodney, it was there that I met Pastor Peter.
 
Pastor Peter became the father that I did not have. He stood with me, he mentored me to this day, and he's worked closely with me. And all these doors were opening, because one 15 year old, had made a decision to live simply so that I could simply live. And I could not be more grateful. And so the way I live today is really to give back as much as I can and make a difference as a way of saying thank you.
 
Rodney Olsen
There were voices back for that eight year old that was saying, You're worthless. You're never going to be anything.
 
Richmond Wandera 
Yeah.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're a joke. What were the the voices that came from Heather for you? What were the words that you experienced from Heather?
 
Richmond Wandera 
You know, it's such a serious problem of poverty, because poverty like a voice speaks to the child again, constantly, as I mentioned earlier. You're worthless. You are nothing. Nobody wants you, and so that level of poverty, that invisible poverty, there is no amount of money you can throw at it, to overcome it. There's no amount.
 
You could clothe me up well, but the voice remains. You could give me Vaseline for my face and lotion and the voice remains. There is nothing you can do using money to overcome that voice. The only thing that overcomes that voice is a counter voice. A counter message, and Heather's letters brought to me words like Richmond, I love you. Richmond, I'm praying for you.
 
She was part of a Presbyterian Church and so she could send me kids pictures of the kids of the Presbyterian Church. She wanted she sent me a picture of her pet dog and said, "Hey, do you love dogs?" She completely didn't understand that we have no pet culture back home, and so that was a really funny question that she asked. But she sent me stickers. She sent me cards that had music in them and Rodney these, these small and simple things, were able to awake the Richmond that was slowly dying.
 
And she said words over and over again words that I was not hearing in my community and I believe that there is there is something to be said about the community in which your child grows in. When a child grows up in Naguru, all they see is gangs and fighting and dirty water and death, and it shapes the child's person, not just the body but the child's person. And so when I got these counter messages from Heather, at first when she said I love you, I thought you don't even know me, how can you love me? But Rodney, Heather said that enough times that I believed her. And that's the work of God. It's a miracle. It's a miracle that a person who believes deeply darkness about themselves can actually change that belief system because of the words that are countering the message that they have always been hearing.
 
And I believe that it doesn't take that much to change the life of a child. It really doesn't take that much. But it takes that constant presence and that affirmation and that belief that, hey, I'm here with you. There's nothing you can ever do to for me to let you go. I'm here. And I think that children can tell and I was able to tell, and I believed Heather's words. And I think that's what brought the healing that I currently experience and now I'm very passionate about extending to other children.
 
Rodney Olsen
You mentioned Pastor Peter a little while ago, and I believe that there's a particular story that he shared with you that made a radical difference in your life.
 
Richmond Wandera 
So I joined the project at a very young age and but I like I said to you earlier Rodney, I didn't come from a family of faith. We didn't believe in God. We didn't believe in Christianity or anything like that but we just wanted help and we found help at the church.
 
And it was at that church that I met this man, Pastor Peter, who later on became the father that I did not have but again, on joining the project, we began to hear about the gospel, about the good news of Jesus Christ, I received my first Bible at the local project. I began to read this book, and then to interact with friends about it, and then to hear all these stories that were very, very exciting and engaging and I wish I had made the decision earlier but it waited until I was 14 years old, that I finally heard this story from Genesis 39 and 40, about this boy, Joseph and Pastor Peter spoke with passion and pleading with us about Christ and he said, that this boy, Joseph, he went through all these difficult things in his life, not of his own making.
 
He went through all these challenges, but there was a God who had a good plan for him. And Rodney, my heart was touched and I could feel deeply that I'm, I need this God in my life, I am a sinner, I need to repent and change and become anything that this God would want me to be.
 
Then Rodney, that is how I made my decision to follow God and I had no idea that it was going to completely change my future and change my family. Few Years later on, I was 19 years old, and Rodney, I had had the opportunity to see all five of my siblings make a decision to follow Christ, all of them led to Christ by Pastor Peter.
 
When I was 19, I had the absolute joy of seeing my mother invite herself to church and she sat at the back and Pastor Peter was going as he normally goes every Sunday, talking with just passion about God, and my mother, she walked forward, knelt down, accepted Christ in her heart and Rodney in that moment, I just knew that our family will not be the same again, and that was true.
 
Because all the injustices that had happened to my mother, the man who basically swindled all the money that she was entitled to, as a result of my father's work, and basically stole that money from her when she needed it the most. My mother was able to forgive him. My uncle who took from us at the point of desperation, my mother looked at him and forgave him.
 
My uncle ended up falling sick of cancer and when my mother invited us and said, "Look, let's go and take care of uncle in hospital", I knew that my mother had finally forgiven. That action was almost impossible for a person who treated you so badly at a time when you needed them the most.
 
Two days before my uncle passed, my mother led my uncle to the Lord. In the first days I remember just being there with tears in my eyes as my uncle when we first arrived at the hospital, he refused to look at us. He refused the forgiveness that we're offering saying, look, I deserve to go to hell I deserve. of course, my life, I don't deserve your forgiveness. And he also suspected that we aren't actually able to forgive him and so he he looked away for a while and then after that, my mother looked at him and just kept caring for him.
 
A few days into it. My uncle was insistent that whatever I will get after I die I deserve because of my actions. So just leave me letting me be. And my mother looked at him. I remember Rodney, my mother asking one of the most profound questions I've heard.
 
My mother asked my uncle, could you use your finger to point at anybody here who you think deserves to go to heaven, who's lived a life that is so right? My uncle looked, and my mother said, that's it. It's all by grace. All of us. None of us deserve it. That's why it's a gift. And Rodney, it was just tears. As we saw my mother lead my uncle to the Lord and I came back with such an understanding of the gospel after the day like, like, like I've never seen.
 
And all this change is happening, simply, my mother obviously, heard the gospel from Pastor Peter, but she would have never been in the church space, if it wasn't for Compassion. and Compassion would never have been able to sustain its work in the past if it wasn't for Heather. And so I think about some of these connected pieces, names connected to names, churches connected to churches, individuals connected individuals, and I'm just saying what a tapestry of God's amazing plan.
 
Rodney Olsen
Fast forward, you finished your schooling and then went on to university. What happened then?
 
Richmond Wandera 
I had a passion to fight corruption, I had heard at the time that Uganda was the sixth most corrupt country in the world and my vision and dream was to heal my corrupt country by training accountants.
 
So I went and studied very hard. And I graduated on top of my class with a bachelor's degree in accounting. And I graduated with such good grades that the university retained me as a tutorial assistant and I began to lecture at the university and I was passionate about teaching accounting, especially the ethical side of accounting. And that was a wonderful time but then, Rodney, it just kept before me the story of my mother and how she was completely freed from this unforgiveness and this bitterness that was very common in the Naguru Slum.
 
I thought, look, I mean, our community in Naguru needs accountants and it needs business people and it needs the health and food and support but what I think our community needs is that which changes us on the inside, that which brings hope.
 
So I began to pursue pastoral ministry and Pastor Peter, who was my senior pastor then was then promoted to become the General Secretary of the Baptist Union of Uganda and so Pastor Peter said to me, Richmond, I think it's time. It's time for you to become the senior pastor of this church. And so Rodney I knelt down before a group of elders and witnesses who basically named me the senior pastor of the very church that rescued me as a child.
 
So I began to serve, but without training, and so I began to serve very diligently and later on the Lord opened the door for me to do a master's degree in spiritual formation and discipleship. Then it just hit me just hit me like a ton of bricks that now I was in the top 1% of pastors in my country who would finally now got theological training. That's like, wow, to whom much is given, much is also required. And so I pulled myself together and I began to pray and ended up launching the Pastor's Discipleship Network, which is a ministry that brings pastors together to study the Word to acquire ministry tools and ministry skills so that they can go and teach the Bible accurately but also lead ministry effectively.
 
And so I began that with a focus on Kampala City, my city that I love. And I did not know that God had such a bigger vision for that. Today, we've expanded way beyond Kampala City across the nation to four other countries. So we're in South Sudan, we're in the Democratic Republic of Congo, we're in Rwanda and we're in Uganda.
 
In the next year, we'll be launching our space in Kenya, where pastors come together to study the Word of God and to disciple each other. And so I look back and look at the number we're Rodney, we're now at 6,000. 6,000 pastors in the East African space that are part of this network, and we're diligently discipling each other and learning. And I think that where did it all start and I can't escape the fact that all this potential was dying on the street until a 15 year old girl put up her hand and said, I'll make a difference, I will join that fight.
 
Rodney Olsen
Life is so very different now to what it was for that eight year old boy, that happy eight year old boy whose life changed in an instant, and so much has happened since then. We talked before about the voices of poverty speaking to you. Now we know that they were wrong. We know that there were counter voices. But do those voices sometimes still try to get in your head?
 
Richmond Wandera 
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I'll tell you just one specific story when I was invited to a very high profile dinner, and I honestly didn't believe I deserved to enter that space because I had categorized myself as being lower in the community strata and I decided, look, I don't know if it's gonna be very awkward walking through this space where everyone is a leader with such a good background such a good education. What would I be doing in this space?
And yes, those voices kept getting into my head but that's why I'm passionate about breaking those lies. I got help. I remember Steve Wilson, a gentleman who has been very very helpful to me in helping me identify these lies that continue and linger on because it's not that black and white where you can identify it.
 
Sometimes it's there and you don't even know. It's been with you so long that that becomes your new normal and till someone on the outside looks and says hello Richmond, why do you look at yourself like that? Why are you so constantly disqualifying yourself from opportunities, disqualifying yourself from our conversations?
 
Wow, I need that and I realize, man, some of these lies still linger on in some way but will probably not as it is in some of the children's lives but I think for me, it's a constant battle.
 
And that's why the more I talk to children about this the more I talk to fellow Compassion kids about it, the more I free myself from some of these things, and the sharper my eyes get in identifying some of these lies.
 
And so yes Rodney, sometimes it's a constant battle. And I think in some way, it is an onslaught from the enemy to really affect our identity not just in Uganda, but around the world. There is an identity crisis. There are people who are wondering who they are, what they are, and inside people's hearts, there's always this tickling thought, I mean, what if I live my life more fully? What if I really unleash the potential that's inside of me, but quickly, then they quiet that voice? Because I, you know, probably not today, maybe tomorrow I'll I'll press that or press into that thought a little bit more in other day, but not now. And so it's just constant postponing of, of this suspicion that I could actually do more than I'm currently doing, but they keep extending it to tomorrow. And I think that that's it's pronounced even more in the poverty space.
 
But I know that most people will recognize it and it's, it's the more we fight in our own lives and feel the impact that happens when we release ourselves more fully into serving others into being a blessing into making a difference, then the more we can to release others into their full potential.
 
Rodney Olsen
You already touched on a real message for you, and that is that we should be living more simply so that others may simply live.
 
Richmond Wandera
Yeah.
 
Rodney Olsen
Maybe that's a thought that you'd like to leave with us today.
 
Richmond Wandera
Yeah, Rodney. I honestly believe that. It's not that complicated. Every time I choose, or I volunteer to live with less immediately that single decision, even though I make it now, it immediately frees up time, resources and talent, so that I could then allocate that to someone else.
 
I mean, I'll just give you an example right now. So if I was going to have a meal today, and the meal, let's say costs $5. And I decided I am not having that meal, because I want to live simply, I'm just going to spend through today thinking and reflecting and pondering on the thought of what does it mean to make a difference, and I'm just not gonna have that meal.
 
Immediately $5 is freed and that $5 is not just freed, it's also the time that have taken for that meal, that's also freed up and so I could give that $5 to somebody, as well as it could be spend that one hour which I would have walked to the place, had the meal and then walk back and I probably walked to another place and maybe there's a refugee family that's down the street that has a young boy that cannot speak English and is struggling in class and I could I could do that, or I could walk down the street and work with somebody, maybe someone who was disability or a special need and just spend time with them.
 
Well, I could call up somebody who's struggling to understand something and basically, so I mean, it's a simple thing, but it's actually very radical. And when a person decides, like, look, I could spend all my money buying the latest toys and the latest this, or I could just choose to say, look, I have chosen, this is my life, I make a decision today to live simply. That's my choice. Nobody's forcing it on me. It's my voluntary choice. And when someone decides that, immediately that frees up resources, it frees up time and frees up talent, to be able to invest into the world and if that investment is made in people, it makes all the difference.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And we get off the treadmill that the world wants us to stay on.
 
Richmond Wandera 
Exactly.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Richmond it's been such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time.
 
Richmond Wandera 
Thank you Rodney.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This is a short episode that explains a little about Bleeding Daylight and its host, Rodney Olsen.