Bleeding Daylight

Tyler D. Smith is a pastor, NBA sports writer, basketball coach, and author. He's also worked in the Christian music industry. He graduated from Lincoln Christian University and has served in ministry since 2005. Today we welcome him to Bleeding Daylight.
 
 
  
Tyler D. Smith: https://tylerdsmith.net
Searching for Seven: https://www.searchingforseven.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/searchingforsevenbook
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen: 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Today’s guest has already done so much in life but he is forever searching for more. He has just released a book titled Searching for Seven. We’re about to find out what it’s all about in this edition of Bleeding Daylight.
 
Tyler D. Smith is a pastor, NBA sports writer, basketball coach, and author. He's also worked in the Christian music industry. He graduated from Lincoln Christian University and has served in ministry since 2005. He lives in Indiana with his wife, Katelyn and their two daughters, Addi and Ellie. He's recently released the book Searching for Seven. Over the next several minutes, we'll find out a bit more about the book and about Tyler. It's a pleasure to have you join us. Welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Thank you so much for having me. How are you?
 
Rodney Olsen:
I'm well, I could have said a lot more about you, including the fact that you even find time to record a bunch of music. Is there anything that you can't do?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Well? I mean, I've been very blessed. All the things I get to do, it's a, you know, all the things kind of fit together and I still make sure I prioritize, you know, things that are most important. And yeah, I would say I'm maybe not the best dancer in the world.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Okay. Yeah. I can relate to that. Now. I mentioned your book, which starts with a lesson that you learned back when you were just 15. Tell me about that basketball game that, that changed your life and the lessons that you learned from it.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah, that's something that I didn't really understand until much later in life, which I love when, uh, when God does that for us, it was a random game. I was playing JV basketball at the time, which here in Indiana, it's the step right below the big time, the varsity team. And I was a sophomore like very well there, one particular game where it wasn't playing well, the coach pulled me out of the game and then like a minute or two later, he put me back in and I had all this adrenaline from being mad at the situation. So I got in the game and played really well at that point. Well, that game actually changed the trajectory of my basketball career. I ended up dressing varsity later that year, I played the next two years and then God actually used basketball to get me to go to this Christian university. Honest truth, the only reason at the beginning that I went, I had no intention of being in ministry or really anything of that nature. I wanted to go major in communications and play basketball and that was it. Um, but after one year that school, there was a local youth group that called me and asked me to start up a youth program. And I've actually been doing youth ministry ever since it's been 15 years. And so I look back at that moment and I think man, if it wasn't for that one random game basketball game by sophomore year, the trajectory of what I ended up being into ministry after that, it's crazy to look back and see how God used that experience.
 
Rodney Olsen:
I notice that you use a lot of stories to communicate. Do you find that you naturally think in analogies?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Absolutely. Uh, there could be something random happened on the side of the road and I'll say, Hey, that's a good sermon analogy. Actually some of my students, a couple of them are in ministry now. Um, they, they joke with me and they'll call me or text me and say, Hey, this is a good sermon analogy because that's just the way my mind thinks. I feel like people in general just really relate to stories and analogies. And so I try to do that the best that I can.
 
Rodney Olsen:
And does your wife fear that at times knowing that anything that happens could end up being a sermon illustration?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Well, thus far she's also a preacher's kid. So she grew up having those analogies from, so I try to make sure I don't do anything too embarrassing to her. And, and just to, if it's an analogy about her or the kids, I try to try to build them up the best I can.
 
Rodney Olsen:
You're also a sports writer and you said that you did want to work in communications. So tell me how all that fits together.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah. So going to college, you know, for that degree, I really wanted to get into broadcasting journalism, and I was doing a little bit of it on the side, just more as an outlet, a way to enjoy sports and talk about sports. But what happened was on my sports, Twitter feed, I was able to build a nice little following and that helped me land this side of sports, running for the Pacers and basketball, which is the college team here. And, you know, I feel like I'm writing constantly, whether it's for sports, writing a message for church, writing a blog, it's just something that I love doing. And it's one of those things as, as a writer, it's almost like you're, you're never fully satisfied until you write what you felt like you were called to write, and then you're onto the next project. Um, but it's cool getting a chance to combine the two, any chance that I get this project with the sports running gig, where I was able to raise awareness and money for a homeless project in Indianapolis, and one of the NBA players actually retweeted it and got involved. So there's, there's ways that you can combine, um, you know, sports and faith and writing process
 
Rodney Olsen:
Do you sometimes find, even though that you have been able to combine them, that there are conflicts between those two sides?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I think in some situations, depending on the employer, depending on the project that you're involved in, um, I'm thankful that, uh, the sports running gig that I have, there's a lot of freedom. Uh, the, the owner of the website is a Christian himself. Um, so there's not a whole lot of conflict on, on my end. I could see for some people, especially the beat writers, that the ones that follow the team everywhere, you know, I go to the home games, but if it's a beat writer for a big paper or big station, you know, they need to report anything and everything, even if it's against, you know, maybe, uh, some of their beliefs or anything, but I've been, I've been blessed in that way.
Rodney Olsen:
And we are going to get to talk about your book in a little while. But another thing that actually adds into that is, is the life experience that you talk about throughout that book and the stories that come out of it. Uh, another area that you've worked in is, is Christian music. Tell me about that.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah. Another thing that was a dream job for me, a buddy of mine who is now out in San Diego, he started this company from the ground up to work in the Christian music field. Uh, putting on Christian shows, promoting them. We were mainly, uh, through the Midwest in America. And, uh, we had just, a lot of shows, got to work with artists, such as Newsboys and Toby Mac and skillet and Switchfoot and just a lot of artists. So it was really cool to get a bit of a behind the scenes look, to be able to spend some time with tour buses and get to know the artists. And really you see when you see all of the work leading up to a show, all the promotion, all the details. And then when the show actually hits, you know, that's almost like a sports analogy to, you know, all the work leading up to the game, you see the fans, the reactions, you see maybe a decisions for Christ. And it's a very rewarding thing once it all comes together, but that was a great, it was probably about three years. I was in that company.
 
Rodney Olsen:
It's interesting when we're talking about some of those musicians that have such a high profile, I've had the opportunity through radio too, to see some of that closeup too. And I was certainly, and I don't want you to name names, but I have certainly seen that there are some that absolutely live up to what's on the album and they live up to the lifestyle that they portray in public. And there are others that don't. Do you think that there's a trap for, for some musicians in, in that world?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I think so, especially, you know, I'm just a big Christian music fan in general, you know, even apart from the company I was in and I like to listen to interviews, I like to hear their stories and you've had some artists even the last few years basically say that, yeah, this is a very tough industry. And there's a lot of people that maybe are higher than you that are only worried about the bottom line. They're only worried about streams and sales and all that. And you can fall into that trap, even though it's Christian music into that, maybe rock star mentality. I think it all comes back to the people you're surrounding yourself with. And sometimes those artists were forced to be around maybe people that aren't really building them up and care about other things. But if you can find the right support group, even if you're traveling, it's going to be really important. And you know, like you said, I agree that, you know, when you get the inside, you kind of see which artists are doing this or that, or which ones are living up to it. And, um, it can be a little disappointing at times, but it can also be a good thing when you find some of those genuine people that are really doing it for a purpose.
 
Rodney Olsen:
And there are certainly some very genuine people that are, uh, just the same as they are on stage in person. And that's always wonderful to find, but I'm wondering for your perspective, seeing as you've been close up, do you think that sometimes we, we pay too much attention on what people who are in the public eye might say, for instance, you're up close to some, some sportspeople and also some musicians, specifically Christian musicians, do you think sometimes we get it wrong by trying to take our cues from, from those people who are most of the time they're just entertaining.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Absolutely. Um, you gotta pick your role models very carefully. Um, you know, just because they say maybe something from stage doesn't mean that they're necessarily living that out. Same thing with athletes, you know, so many times fans get upset when they see an athlete that made a mistake. And I just want to remind them, you know, these are humans, and even though they're in the public eye, they have a lot of pressure on them, a lot of stress. So I think I would, I would try to follow, um, you know, the words of Paul that said follow me as I follow Christ. And if you find those people, whether it's celebrity or, or just a friend that you can really see the fruit that they are following Christ the best I can then maybe take some cues from them and follow up some other examples. But we gotta be careful when we make people Pete Rose or even idols in our lives. I suppose.
 
Rodney Olsen:
That's the other side of it too, is that we know for ourselves that we fail. So often we mock it up and we give ourselves licensed to do that. And we say, yes, I'll ask for forgiveness or move on. I've I've messed it up again. But we often don't give those people in the public eye, the same license to mess it up, ask for forgiveness and move on, where we're holding them to an unrealistic.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah, I'm reminded of a quote. I can't remember who said it actually, but they said, you know, we often judge others by their actions and we judge ourselves by our intentions and there's kind of a, a gap there of how we treat other people compared to herself.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Having a look at you at your book now searching for seven. It's an interesting title. Maybe you could explain a little bit of what that means.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Seven, as far as the book, title is a double meaning, a seven scripturally is the number of God. If you really look deep into it, it means completeness and perfection. So in a way I am searching for him, but I'm also searching for my own faith seven days a week. And I started to realize, as I was writing, I didn't have a title at the very beginning, but all of my notes were basically fitting into the same Mike, that same category of, I need to look for God seven days a week. Can't just be Sunday. Can't just be at a camp. Or when tragedy strikes, I have to look for him, be aware of him. I believe he seeks us and is pursuing us always. But like any relationship, there's gotta be a two way street there. Um, I don't want to say, you know, God show up and I don't do anything to return to seek him. So that is where the number seven comes in.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Going back to that very first story in the about that, that basketball game. There's a great lesson in there too, about you being put back in because many people would probably assume that God is there watching us. You're saying we're searching for him, but he's also searching for us. And we can sometimes think that that searching for us is to try and catch us out. And yet you drew something very different from that basketball game.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah. The coach that came over to put me back in the game, I couldn't believe that he did it because I was playing so poorly for so long. And I also, I mentioned in the book that I was kind of a know it all 15 year old, and I was talking back to him and stuff and I was sitting there thinking this is not good for my basketball career, but he came over to the main, you know, a minute or two later pulled me back in and said, let's go. And after the game actually told me that, you know, I know, I know there's more in there for me. It was years later that I realized, I believe that's what God does to us. You know, when we screwed up many times, he doesn't just say, you know, forget you and stay on the bed.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
He comes right back over to us. He doesn't get back in the game and you can look, you know, story after story and scripture of these people is men and women that screwed up that maybe had a bad past, or maybe they were involved in the current sin. Jesus was patient with them, comforting show compassion. And the second they came to him is the second day we're forgiven. And so that's another example of, you know, why would we think God can forgive people, but he can't forgive us. You know, he's seeking us out and it's not just to call out our sin. It's to love us and to say, Hey, get back in the game. I know, I know there's more in there.
 
Rodney Olsen:
That would be a very powerful story with the young people that you work with in, in youth ministry. What are, our young people having to face that we never had to face up to?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
One of the overlying factors is similar in terms of what people have dealt with through the years. But because of social media, I think it is, it's just spotlighted. It's, uh, it's highlighted even more for, you know, today's generation. So what I mean is I, I feel like many years people have been searching for their own identity. They're trying to find their own purpose, their own meaning. Am I valued? You know, do I have any point? Is my life, my existence mean anything to anybody? Why am I here? Those kinds of questions. But again, because of all of these things that kids have today and young people have today, they're constantly comparing themselves to others. Um, they, you know, it's like, Hey, if I had what the kids in my class had or what the kids on my street had, I was in good shape, but now I'm comparing myself to millions of people online every day.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
So even if you have something good or you have a good life, you're like, well, somebody else has something better. And you maybe, maybe never content with that. Or maybe even though, because you have all of this stuff, what's crazy is today's generation. They have, they have more than everybody else, but they're also bored. They're more bored than everybody else. Cause they just want that instant gratification. So it's a constant comparison game and game that nobody can ever win. And I'm still looking for purpose and meaning and identity, but they're looking for often times and wrong.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Most of us have experienced people that are even much older that are still looking for that identity. They're still looking for their place in the world expecting that, Hey, I thought when I get a bit older that it would all fall in place and it hasn't yet. What do you see as the antidote to that common call of the heart, to where
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I think a big thing which I touch on in chapter two is we've got to find a way to serve because we were created to do it. We were created in Christ to do good works. And I feel like sometimes when we don't put action to our faith and we don't get out there and serve people and do ministry of some kind, it's like an item that you haven't used in your house for a long time, it's going to stop working. You know, actually mentioned that in the book that I don't have something to say for things that are so serious, like depression and suicide and mental health. But I do think if someone was struggling with those things, I would point them to some of those scriptures where I would say, Hey, let's go serve somewhere together. Let's see when you help someone else.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
When you give your life to others, will you start to feel that purpose and that meaning and feel like I'm, I'm worth it. Um, you know, there's a story. I did not share this one in the book, but there's a story I heard of a lady who was that very day. She was about to take her own life. And somebody came up and asked her where the vending machine was and she walked him over to it and showed it to them. And they said, Oh, thank you so much. And kid you, not that woman decided to stay alive because for one minute she felt needed. So those kinds of stories just gives you chill sometimes because it's like, we've got to help people understand that part of their purpose and finding their own value is when they help other people, they feel like they they're useful. And so I would say, get out there and serve, and also again, surround yourself with the right people and continue to see God in every way you possibly can think of.
 
Rodney Olsen:
I was certainly going to touch on that. I noticed in the book, you, you mentioned that if you have a friend who is suffering from depression, to ask them to be involved in something with you, and I know that you're not suggesting that, that they don't take medical advice and, and all those good things, but that whole idea of actually serving rather than focusing in on oneself, it seems to be an upside down concept that we kind of know in the back of our mind, it's, it's a good thing to do, but so rarely is it practiced. And I wonder if that's part of that yearning for where do I fit in as well?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I would agree. And you, you mentioned that phrase upside down. I think there's so many things that Jesus taught that were upside down. You know, for example, if you want to be great and his eyes, you know, especially around the country, I know it's worldwide in many places, but it's all about, you know, success means how much money and how many followers and you know, the attention you have. Jesus had that upside down approach of if you want to be great, you need to be a servant.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Do you think that sometimes we even lose sight of that in our churches? I know that there are many people searching for significance and, and searching for what is the meaning of life, and yet, sometimes our churches aren't showing the way forward in that serving one another.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Yeah, I think the church can do a much better job. You know, if a church is to focus on just the numbers, I've heard it said before that, you know, the ABC is the attendance, attendance building and cash. And if it's just kind of like what they put their focus on, uh, then people may lose the heart of what they're doing more at the same time. It's, it's a group of Christians. They feel it in their heart to serve, but it's more of a like, look at me, you know, I'm on a trip, you know, I'm serving, look how great I am. You know, that's not groups as well. So I would, you know, find a, or at least encourage, I'm not saying, leave your church, encourage your church and other Christians to have that right mindset of, I want to serve because I do it for the least of these. I'm doing it for Christ, even a cup of cold water in his name, you know, it's for him and have the right mindset, you know, servant's heart. And that's the way to go.
 
Rodney Olsen:
One of the chapters in your book is Choose the Right Battles, uh, talking about deciding what we're going to focus on. And I think in some ways it ties into one of your blog posts, which is about the criticism that people so often get. And we seem to live in a world where everyone is open to criticism that you touched on the whole social media thing earlier. And that there are so many people willing to point the finger and accused. Do you see that as being, uh, something that's very damaging in our society? And how do you see that play out with the people that you meet with daily?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
It's a big problem. You know, I touched on it, whether it was the book or the blog about, you know, Christian artists and people saying, Oh, they don't say Jesus enough. Or, you know, this pastor said, one thing that I disagree with and therefore I should call him a false teacher and a heretic and tell everyone to stop following. And you know, the problem is when non-Christians see that kind of division and that kind of criticism, you know, it's tough because they'll think I don't want to be part of that. I want no part of that whatsoever. So we've gotta be very careful, you know, we want to build people up and I make the point, you know, imagine if the marriage work like that. Imagine if I said, Oh, I disagree with my wife over one thing. So we have to get a divorce.
 
You know, you're not always gonna agree a hundred percent with everybody, but you just immediately go, it's tough. You know, you look at things like the super bowl, you know, what's everyone talking about, Oh, how horrible the halftime show was. And this person, I mean, every single year, it's like the first thing people want to do. And yeah, social media has played a part in that. You know, everyone says, I've got to share my opinion and I've got to join the crowd of saying what's good. And what I don't like, you know, you think of current events, everyone has an opinion, even if it's not educated about what side I want to take. And I want to be very loud about it and, and instead, can we take the approach of love? Can we take the word of scripture where it says be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow, to become angry and just take a more calm approach. Even if you disagree with someone, can you do it in love? Because that's just creeping into our society with our young kids as well.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Do you feel we hold the balance between standing up for what we believe to be right, and to be the truth, uh, and sometimes having to call out a error or heresy as many people would call it, how, how do we draw that balance between that? And, and then just throwing mud at everyone there, as we see so often in social media,
 
Tyler D. Smith:
The best thing is just to follow the best we can, the example of Christ, because he would call people out, but he would do it in a loving way. He was very passionate. Obviously following his conviction, I would always tell someone, follow your convictions if you feel led to speak up, but be very, very careful how you're doing it. Um, there's just so many examples that there's people on both sides of every debate. You know, sometimes I even think there's four sides because there's the Christian side and there's non-Christian side on each and they don't always agree with even their own team. And so you have to be very careful approach approaching. The key thing I think is conversation, ask questions, show people, you value them and care. And then maybe you have an opportunity to share why you believe, why you believe instead of just putting everything on blast, you know, ripping them apart for having a thought that's different than you.
 
Rodney Olsen:
I like that idea of showing people that you, you value them, that you, you care for them. Uh, that's in, in sharp contrast to what we see a lot of the time. And yet, if we do truly care for someone where we're wanting to, to help them, we're not wanting to just tear them down and that seems to be it's that upside down world that, that Jesus offers. And also having the humility to recognize that maybe they do have it right and we need to learn from them. That can sometimes be the hardest lesson.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Absolutely. But it's one that I, I mean, maybe earlier in my life, I wouldn't like to have learned, but now I would love to learn that I would love to be, you know, take a humble approach, but then, um, hear other ideas and be able to truly listen to my brothers and sisters and maybe some of the hurts or some of the, you know, okay. Like why, why do you feel that way? What, what have you gone through to make you draw that conclusion? And just a better conversation better way forward is what we're looking for.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Coming back to the book. What was it that made you decide to, to ride it? Was this a journey that you yourself had to go on. And so it's those principles that you learned in that effort?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
It was, you know, I think especially through high school and in the beginning of college, I was known as a Christian, but it was more of the, you know, he doesn't really do anything too bad if he goes to church kind of Christian and I realized later in life that there's much more to it. And Jesus says the following him, not just believe in him following him. And so all these things that have happened, you know, a lot of the stories from the book or from recent, and then some are from a long time ago, but it's been my own journey. And there was a time period when I thought I cannot not write this book. You know, this is an offering to God, whoever ends up reading it. I hope it blesses them. But it's something that, you know, my kids will be able to read one day, maybe kids in the student ministry can read, you know, whoever else that God thinks needs to hear it. I hope they get their hands on it, but it's my own journey. It's an offering. And I just hope God uses it.
 
Rodney Olsen:
I was going to ask you, who do you feel that the target audience might be? And you've mentioned some people there, but do you think broadly there's a range of people that would enjoy this. I'm wondering specifically as well about those people who might be saying I'm searching for something in life. I'm not sure Jesus, is it, is this book going to work for them as well?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
That's my goal. Um, sometimes people will say, when you do a project, whether it be a book or anything else to have a really specific target audience, but for me, because of this topic being so broad, I wanted to reach a broad audience. And I've already had a lot of feedback from both teenagers and older folks. Um, you know, some that were maybe pleasantly surprised, uh, an older generation that was thinking, Hey, this, this is speaking to me, which is great. But yeah, I definitely want it to fall in the hands of some people that maybe they're non-believer, or maybe they're on the, on the fringe or maybe they, they did the whole Christian thing. And now we're not sure the really, they think there's even a chance that there could be a God, then he is worth seeking out to find out. So it is a very broad audience of who I'm trying to reach with the book, but I'm also thankful that I, I think it turned out that way that, uh, it can be,
 
Rodney Olsen:
And of course the title itself searching for seven suggests that it's not for people who may have their mind made up, but people who are still in that search and that should be all of us.
Tyler D. Smith:
I agree. Absolutely. And hopefully, hopefully a lot of it is, you know, I believe worded in that way that, you know, I'm not trying to come across as the one that has all the answers or, you know, the hero of the story. It's basically, you know, Hey, I'm, I'm another person that's on this journey, looking for him through all things. Here's some things that have worked scriptures that have, uh, meant a lot to me. And I hope they do to you as well, but absolutely. I hope that it helps a skeptic, uh, look for God and I hope it helps, uh, the current Christian to strengthen their faith as they continue to do. So.
 
Rodney Olsen:
And you've mentioned that even though the book hasn't been released for too long, so far, you have had some, some feedback. What are people saying about the book as they're reading it and getting back?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
It's been very humbling to see the feedback so far. Um, I've talked to some and a lot of people that I don't know, but they've, they've said things like, you know, this is the playbook, uh, like my personal playbook for looking for God. Um, I, I got to get in touch with a high school friend that I haven't talked to in probably 15 years and someone who was not always a Christian and, and, you know, came to faith a few years back. And this person said that, you know, this is the book, um, for the, for the person who is tired of being, uh, maybe preached at doesn't mean, they're tired of going to church, but just the constant, like you need this and this. And here's why. And so I was very humbled by that. Um, but yeah, just seeing I actually, I pulled the Bob Goff and put my phone number in the back of the book for anyone interested. Um, just because I'm so open in the conversation and whether it's a text or phone call or anything, not just to get feedback and, and, you know, Pat myself on the back, but more, Hey, let's discuss this further. So I've been very humbled by what I've heard so far. And it's a, it's very, very rewarding.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
And as I say, the book is all about that search. It's written in language that people are going to find absolutely accessible and what I find interesting is that again, that point that you constantly use story and we see in the scripture that there is story after story, we read those narratives. Do you think sometimes we, we break scripture down too much and we concentrate on, on verse after verse, and, and of course there is time for that deeper study, but we, we lose the, the bigger stories that we can find in scripture?
 
Yeah, I think so. Like you said, there's a time and a place for, I think all of these different strategies when you were seeking God and looking through his word Archer, and this is not original idea, you know, we've seen other churches do it, but do this thing called storying in their small group time where, you know, the leader, instead of feeling like they have to teach a Bible study, they simply bring a story from scripture. They try to share it by memory at first, then the group read the story. Then they go around and talk about, okay, who are you in this story? And it's a very effective process that again, people relate the most to those stories. I want to be like, Jesus, what did he do? He taught so much in story. Um, and yeah, he, you know, sermon on the Mount and other times teaching in the synagogue. And that's a great thing too, and it's needed. But most of his interaction was out with people, small groups of people, large groups, but he would share stories. And I feel like, know, the more we can do that, the better off we're going to be. And the more we're gonna understand the heart of God.
 
Rodney Olsen:
You mentioned that a lot of the book came out of your own desire to keep searching for Jesus through everything that you do every day in the writing process. Did you continue to, to learn, did you continue to find Jesus in ways that you didn't expect to find Him?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Absolutely. And that's one of the goals of my entire life is to be a continual learner and really everything that I'm doing, you know, even when I applied for the coaching position, they said, what's your greatest strength? And I said, I'm a student of the game. I'm continuing to learn. I don't have it all figured out. I want to be that way in my faith. Um, there's a lot of stuff that notes over the last few years that I wrote down that I want to include in the book and some stories that happen and then some things happen more recently. And I kept thinking, you know, thank you God for, you know, teaching me that and giving me those words, um, to include in this endeavor. And yeah, it's a great thing to be able to, uh, continue to learn and grow.
 
Rodney Olsen:
If you had to just outline a few of the great takeaways that are in the book that you want people to, to latch onto, what would they be?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I think most importantly, I think too many people in the world want God to be real and want God to show up. But those same people often do nothing to seek him in return. And I've been in that boat myself. But as I said earlier, I believe that it needs to be an actual relationship, um, where it's not just, Hey God, you know, I'm going to spend time with you one day a week and then I'll see you next week. I'm going to go think about my own, everything else that's going on. We need to seek him. And the more we understand you have the awareness that he is there and all, you know, no matter what we're doing, that's going to help us. Um, one of the takeaways too, that I try to teach in church is that, you know, when people go off to conferences or camps or Christian concerts and those moments, they, they often feel really impacted.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
One of the reasons is their mindset when they're in those environments is it's in the right place. They know they're going to hear from God and they're open to it. The trick is how do you get to have that mindset on a day to day basis? It's easy when you're overlooking the ocean, the mountains, the stories guy, or you're going through a tragedy, or you're going through a promotion or something, you know, a blessing in life. What about the Tuesday afternoon when you're in your cubicle at work? How can you have that awareness that God is there, but that is also Holy ground that you're standing on. That is the key. And that's the process, the journey that I to encourage people with in this book.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Well, the book certainly does that it's, as I say, an easy to read book, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't challenge. When we're looking at all the things that you have done so far in life and all the things that you're currently doing, I guess it's difficult for you to project ahead and say where you might be, but do you have any inkling as to where God is going to lead you in the coming years?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
I'm not sure, but I'm looking forward to what happens. I'm very blessed and fortunate with all the things that I'm currently doing. I try to live my life one day at a time. And as far as career paths, I try to look maybe a, you know, Hey, here's the next year. Here's what I think for this year. We'll see what the year after that holds. Um, but I that's part of that, that process, you know, I have a, a chapter on, uh, your finding your calling and your will, you know, God's will for your life. And I think it's more of a day to day thing than it is a destination as a career. Um, so I, I'm just trying my best every day to, to listen, spend time with God, um, love what I'm doing for the foreseeable future. And we'll see what the future holds.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Do you think there's more books on the way?
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Very possible. I think that if I were to, if God were to reveal a specific topic or title, and that's often how even my, my blogs or my, uh, my sermons come across, if I feel that, um, that nudge from God, then I can start the process and compiling notes and him revealing even more things that he wants me to say. So no current plans. Cause I love that, you know, getting to talk about this one and promote it, but it's very possible in the future.
 
Rodney Olsen:
Tyler, if people wanted to get in touch with you, if, if some of this has sparked some thoughts for them that they want to explore with you, where's the best place to find you
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Best place is probably the book's website, because I know, especially in some parts of the country or the world, um, you can't always find the links if you want to purchase the book. But if you go to the book's website, searching for seven.com, you can find the direct links to purchase. You can also find my blog, my Twitter account, um, different ways that we can connect. And even if you don't want the book, but you want to connect with me, there's ways to do it on there. So searching for seven.com,
 
Rodney Olsen:
It has been great to chat to you to talk through such a range of things, but also to, to hear about this book, which I think is going to be very helpful for a lot of people. And we look forward to hearing a bit more about it as time goes on and, and the lives that it changes, but Tyler, thank you so much for spending time with us today.
 
Tyler D. Smith:
Thanks for having me, Rodney. I enjoyed the chat very much.
 
Emily Olsen: 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Tim Winders went from being a multi-millionaire living a lavish lifestyle to a homeless nomad. What caused such a dramatic change and what spiritual and life lessons did he learn along the way?
 
 
Tim Winders: https://www.timwinders.com/
Seek. Go. Create. Podcast: https://seekgocreate.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tim.winders
Twitter: https://twitter.com/SeekGoCreate
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
Emily Olsen: Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen: Tim Winders went from being a multi-millionaire living a lavish lifestyle to a homeless nomad. What caused such a dramatic change and what spiritual and life lessons did he learn along the way?
Where have things landed for Tim over a decade on from those losses?
We’ll find out in today’s episode of Bleeding Daylight.
Rodney Olsen: We all know that life's challenges can teach us more than the good times, but sometimes the journey to those lessons can be very hard. Tim Winders is someone who seemingly had it all until everything he'd worked to achieve was ripped away. These days. He's a speaker, facilitator, coach, author, and podcaster creating and hosting the Seek Go Create Podcast.
I'm very pleased to have him as my guest today, Tim, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Tim Winders: Thank you, Rodney. Great to join you and a great to chat with you on opposite sides of the world.
Rodney Olsen: Let's go back to the two thousands and explore what life was like for you back then.
Tim Winders: yeah, a great question and kind of has, has me going into my memories.
We, in the early two thousands started some businesses in the areas of real estate and, and the way that worked for us, I'm an engineer by training, I'm a, I'm kind of a high energy guy. So when I start something like that, I usually throw myself into it. So shortly after beginning those businesses, we were aquiring anywhere from three to four, sometimes five single family homes or pieces of property per month.
We did that for a number of years. So heading into the mid 2000, I guess we call those the oughts now 2000 ish, five, six, we owned over a hundred pieces of real estate. We probably had it valued at one point and around '07, it was $15 million. Plus we had a coaching business national here in the United States that we were coaching and teaching and training people how to do what we were doing and also a lead generation business that was bringing in leads for motivated sellers and those two companies, coaching and lead gen, was probably would have been valued seven figures plus, and all of that was what we had and, you know, we were, I guess, successful in a lot of people's eyes. We lived in a 6,000 square foot home in a neighborhood that was a resort on a lake in central Georgia with 117 holes of golf and one of our neighbors was a Ritz Carlton. So by all indicators, we were living very well and were very successful leading up to 2008.
Rodney Olsen: That fateful year, 2008. It's got a lot to answer for, but of course we know that there was the global financial crisis. And some people will say, yeah, we predicted it and most say we had no idea. What was the case for you? When did you start to see things begin to turn?
Tim Winders: Well, essentially, that's a great question. Rodney. We actually had coaching clients all over the United States. We had them in Florida. We had them in Las Vegas. We had them in Arizona. We had them in Southern California and so we could see the bubble beginning to emerge in like, '04, '05 and then we saw it heating up in '05, '06' '07. We were seeing, businesses increase, not businesses, but real estate properties increased by 20% year over year in Florida. We had a lot of activity in Florida and you know, when it came to a head for me, And I knew something was going on was I believe it was the tail end of '06.
I got a call. I was on a call with a coaching client in Las Vegas, Nevada. Most people know where Las Vegas, Nevada is and all that goes on there and this coaching client that I may not get the exact numbers, but you'll get the gist of the story he called and said a property went on the market for $225,000 yesterday.
Someone put an offer in for 230, someone put an offer in for 235, should I offer 240? And there was just silence on the line. I recall this Rodney vividly, I've told this story a few times and I just said, we are in trouble. And I mentioned to this client, I said, stop. Don't do anything. Don't do a deal just to get a deal.
There's bigger things at play here, and we just need to pause. And so we were preparing for it. You know, we had some money set aside. We were somewhat warning our clients and our investors, and we knew that there was going to be some form of an adjustment. And like you said, a lot of people said, Oh, we predicted it.
And we said, this was going to happen. I, I think we knew something was going to bust. We knew that there were going to be foreclosures. We knew there were going to be issues in the real estate market. Probably the thing we didn't factor was the level of government involvement in attempting to prop it up that.
You know, if I can point back at what may have messed, messed up, my strategy would be that the government kind of kept things going for longer instead of just ripping the bandaid off, letting things collapse. So, anyway, so that was kind of what we saw leading up to it. We knew it was going to happen.
Rodney Olsen: The prevailing wisdom has always been in the past that real estate is always a sound investment that over time. Property is always going to bring in a return, but that's no longer the case.
Tim Winders: You know? And thank you for reminding me that I used to get up on stages and teach and train and speak and, and tout that in the 60 years, previous real estate has never gone down year, over year. And I did that all the way up until '07, '08 and we were still saying, Oh, real estate will rebound. It will be fine, but you are correct. We're in a different world. We saw real estate. Real estate is still local. I think we need to admit that, but we did see real estate decrease year over year, over year for a few years. And I think, I don't know what it's like in your part of the world or other parts of the world, but in the United States, as we headed into early parts of 2020, we were just now seeing them recover to what they were pre 2008 in many markets in the United States.
Rodney Olsen: I can imagine at the time your whole world is taken up by coaching other people, along with your investments to have the investments come crashing down. It's not only something that hurts you financially, but also knowing that you had been advising so many people, people would have taken your advice and that must have been a weight to bear as well.
Tim Winders: Well, I mean, listen, there was, there were a number of burdens here. Let me also say that you don't build whatever number we want to use, we'll say 15 million in real estate with your own money, you have investors, you have some banks that are involved. You have private people that have taken their hard earned money and said, can you earn returns for me?
And. Probably as, as much as anything that burden kind of ate away at me, Rodney, because these were people that trusted us invested with us. And then as the markets were, you know, it's interesting, it wasn't as much a crash then as almost like a quicksand situation is the analogy that I use because. At any moment and this may even have been to a fault, I literally did think things were going to turn around and that might've been my positive attitude. It might've been my spiritual background. It might've been ignorance. I don't know. But I mean, at any moment, like in ' 08. '09 I said, you know, things are just going to get better and it'll be awesome and we'll recover and we'll be able to get back on track and that led to five years later, 2013, we lost our home. We had gone through bankruptcy. We became homeless and, and began traveling pretty much living in a Honda van. You brought up an interesting point in that I really couldn't continue the coaching and training business. For the simple reason, Rodney, I did not know what to tell people.
If I couldn't do it myself, I don't know if it's integrity. I don't know what kind of words you want to use, but I just couldn't go to Rodney and say, Hey, listen, here's how you buy a property. You buy it here, you buy it low, you fix it up, you sell it, you rent it out. You lease option. I could not do it. If I was not in a position to do it myself, there are a lot of people that have no problem with that.
I couldn't. So after a short period of time, we basically had to shut down the coaching business, even though a lot of people still did it because just like you brought up, I didn't know what to tell people.
Rodney Olsen: It's an interesting dilemma that you've found yourself in at this time, losing this wealth that you had built up and you said that your idea that things were going to turn around came from your enthusiasm, but also from a spiritual background now, That's an interesting one. Tell us about the kind of spiritual background that would drive you to jump on the great American dream of gathering wealth. What, what was it that, that was there in that spiritual background that drove you in that direction?
Tim Winders: Well, as a, I mean, I, I, I am a follower of Christ and that's my that's kind of where I would put myself. Some people might put that in the term, Christian. I actually have. Over the last few years, even kind of separated that out. I, I am a believer in Christ and all that happened on the cross and all that he did for us.
And so I attempt to follow him in all ways. And in the, I guess I'll call it first world. I sometimes call it Americanized Christian mindset. There is this tendency for those that are of the Christian faith to believe that their bank account is a direct correlation to how they're being blessed in, in that world.
And, and I. Kind of fell into that. And so I was sitting here thinking, you know, I'm doing all the things we're supposed to do as, as a Christian. And so all of a sudden we're going through a downturn and you know what, I believe that God is gonna open up the heavens and shine a light on me and everything's going to be okay at any minute now, any minute, now, it things are going turn. And, and, and so that was kinda my mindset from a spiritual standpoint, I'm always. I've always been kind of more of a positive mental attitude guy also. So you mix those two together and what I was doing instead of, you know, cutting costs, getting rid of, you know, overhead that we needed to in business, looking at low performing assets and unloading those even at a discount and, and evaluating what we could do to bring in revenue.
I was probably, you know, there's a term I use a lot, Rodney in, it may be in the scriptures. I'm not sure, but it's thou shalt, not fool thyself. And in many ways I was fooling myself because self-awareness is really such a foundational principle to success in so many ways. And so, and so I was. going against one of my foundational principles, which was thou shalt, not fool thyself.
I was fooling myself thinking that any day now, things were just gonna magically rebound. So I was pulling money from credit lines and, and, you know, paying, paying one credit line to pay off the other one, just to keep some mortgages and things going to try to keep things afloat where. In looking back, I should have just begun a cutting and, and, process of eliminating overhead as, as soon as I possibly could during that time.
Rodney Olsen: So when this all came crashing down and you have this spiritual belief that God needs to shine on me, did it shake your foundation of faith?
Tim Winders: You know, that's, it's interesting. I don't think it shook my foundation of faith, which that foundation is a, is a belief that there is a God that he created us, that there was a creation event that, you know, this is kind of like Tim's version of the Bible, that there was a fall.
And then we needed to be reconnected with the father through what happened on the cross with what Jesus did, the sacrifice that he made. So it didn't shake that foundation. But Rodney, it did shake my foundation in, in what the, I guess the outcome of that belief should be, I guess I thought that because I believed that that, like I said earlier, that there should be some kind of protection or, you know, I'll tell you exactly what it was.
Cause I had long conversations. I, I, you know, some people might. Not understand this. Some people might, but, but I, I communicate with my heavenly father and I have conversations within that go, something like this Lord, what is going on here? We've done all the things that we thought we were supposed to do, but yet.
Our financial world is collapsing. What is up here? And so those were the conversations that I would have and, and they would be long, drawn out conversations. Rodney has this thing played out back in Oh eight Oh nine, 10 11. I would go on long walks on the golf courses in our community. they weren't playing on the golf courses at the time.
Thankfully it was when they were rotating certain golf courses, but I would just walk and I literally, I mean, you kind of heard people talk about crying out to Lord. I would just cry out, Lord. I love you and I want to follow you, but dang, I'm in pain here. This is ripping my insides out. You know, we're losing our house.
You know, I've got kids that are teenagers trying to go to college. What is going on? And kind of the long story shortened there, Rodney is, is I just came to really a deeper understanding of what that relationship was. And his response to me at one point was I'm not an ATM machine. Don't. Don't try to be connected with me when things are going great and then things go bad. You think you're going to come, you know, stick the ATM card in and get finances and cash. That's not what the kingdom of God his kingdom is all about. And so I don't know if that answered your question, but that was really. Where, what was shaken was my understanding of what blessings were all about.
My understanding of what the byproduct of a relationship with the creator with the father was not really that he existed. And I believed in him, it was. What were the results of that and what, and how I should be operating and thinking in terms of that
Rodney Olsen: You touched on something that I have been wanting to explore, and that is that you didn't go through this just on your own. So it wasn't just a financial crash for you, but you're married, you've got teenage kids. How are you all coping with this as a family?
Tim Winders: well, first thing I would say is, you know, in many ways you would have to ask them, but I can, we've had long discussions about this so I could share what we've gone through.
I, I am married, have been married for over 30 years. Beautiful. Her name is glory. So we joked that if you're around her, you have been glorified. And I definitely have for, for many, many years, and. And I'll just, I'll mention what we went through. And then in a separate kind of dialogue, I'll probably mention what the children went through, because that was obviously a separate item, but we have always drawn closer to each other. When we have had issues, that we've had to work through and early on in our marriage, there was some situations with, with her mother that there were some suicide attempts that really could have. Torn into our marriage. We drew closer together during those times and bonded over it and during these times we would, I've always been a guy that thought that I could just roll out of bed and, and figure out a way to make money. And, and Rodney, for, for whatever reason, during those times, it started getting to be where I could not generate the ideas. I, I didn't know what to do everything that I seem to put my hands to didn't lead to any fruit.
So it got to be where my efforts weren't weren't working, which there's a really a deeper spiritual message to that also because many of us think we could do a lot of things on our own. And really for those people that are believers and followers, there's a, there's a whole thing about submitting ourselves.
To the father and to our belief in Christ. And so really I think the byproduct to this bigger picture was from a scripture that I, I quote often for those that, that meant read the Bible. Romans eight 28 is, is that, God will use all things for good, for those that love him. And I believe that the Lord was looking.
To find a way that he could get through to me and so during this process, my wife and I, after it, got to the place where we didn't really know what to do with our time, we couldn't put our hands to anything and earn money. I even tried to even get a job at a local McDonald's in our resort area. And I couldn't even get a job at McDonald's, which is interesting.
Most people would think they could, Rodney, we, my wife and I, we would get up in the morning. And we would get a cup of coffee and we would sit in our home, our big 6,000 square foot home that we had started getting rid of furniture. And because we thought we may have to move at any time as we were getting behind on the mortgages and payments and we would sit and we would get our Bible.
And we would read and we would pray and we would just bounce ideas off of each other. And we would sometimes listen to ministers and we would just press in and attempt to develop a closer relationship with the Lord, which then also meant there was a closer relationship with the two of us. And it strengthened our relationship with him and it also strengthened our relationship with each other. Now that doesn't mean that there weren't struggles in, and we were in a stressful situation. And as, as credit collectors and debt collectors started calling and then the sheriff started knocking on our door when we weren't making payments on our house, that was not.
A positive situation. And she dealt with a lot of stress that caused some health issues. And, and I was probably having my insides ripped out, but that was my wife and I, we actually, during that time learned how to rest and relax. And submit and just to allow ourselves to, I use the word marinade a lot. I don't know if that resonates with people, but we just marinated in the love of our heavenly father.
And some people would say, what do you mean love of heavenly father, you're saying you're going through this horrible financial situation. You know, peace and being relaxed really has very little to do with financial ebbs and flows that we go through. We really need to learn how to function, whether we have a lot or we don't have a lot.
And that's kind of what we learned during that time. My wife and I, so that was my wife. And I can talk more about the children unless I want to pause there and let you interject.
Rodney Olsen: When we have a partner in life, a husband or wife, there's that opportunity that it's going to something like this will either break us apart or it will draw us closer together, but the kids they're watching on and thinking, what have you done with our lives? I'm interested to hear some of their responses.
Tim Winders: Well, a few things they were as this started. Our daughter was finishing up her high school, high school, like 17, 18 years old.
Our son would have been a few years younger than that. So our children are now let me fast forward. Just so people in our children are now 29 and 26. They are well functioning adults. We have great relationships with them. Our daughter is now married and has had our first grandchild, which is cool. And we are now working in business and interacting with our children on almost a daily basis.
So I only say that too, when I back up and go through what they went through, many people would say, Oh boy, this story can't. End. Well, I guess I wanted to give the ending and kind of do time travel to go back before I, before I told what all they went through, you know, when. When you move to a resort community and your children have access to country clubs and the ability to go to a club and charge a meal, or play golf or tennis, or go to a, you know, the indoor pools you do kind of wonder at times if that's a good thing for them, or if you're messing them up and.
And it was probably good that they were able to see that tight lifestyle leading up to when things collapsed. But Rodney, obviously it became difficult when we started to have to tell them, listen, you don't need to go to the club because we knew in the back of our heads, that our account had been suspended.
you know, we're just going to eat in the house. More and, you know, you don't need to, you know, I know maybe you thought you were going to get a certain type car when you turned 16, but you're going to need to drive this Camry that's got 200,000 miles on it and then when you go to college, you know, try to make that car work for you.
So. I think the biggest thing was maybe two or three things. I'll just kind of, I'll just kind of rattle off here. One probably the biggest thing they would say that was a challenge for them was that they saw their parents be successful. I mean, they saw me speak on stage. They saw their mother speak on stages and teach and train and do webinars and videos and, and probably in their eyes, they would tell you, we were, I don't know if invincible, but we could do no wrong in their eyes, which is, that's a lot of that.
You know, a lot of children look at their parents that way and then as this progressed, They, they probably had that challenge and they wondered probably they they've told us later, you know, is being in business for yourself. The way one wants to go is, is, you know, how people earn money and how people work is that even something that's valid in the world.
And there's a whole generation that saw that downturn occur in Oh eight, nine, 10. That the reason they are the way they are today. Where they, they pursue experiences and they're, aren't building and buying the big houses like we did is because of that experience they went through and that's the way our children were.
But the biggest thing Rodney, I want to say is that they also saw. Their mother and I sitting down with the word of God, studying and studying and praying. And we were asking a lot of questions that weren't, it wasn't as if we were just sitting there passively, you know, we were spending time in prayer and we were spending time discussing it and they would, they would come and go from those conversations.
But probably the thing that they saw that impacted them the most was that as things got really bad, we actually pressed in harder to, to have a relationship with our heavenly father. And, and I I'm hopeful that if you were to ask them the question now, and we've had the discussions, they would say, that's what they learn, because they're all they're walking in their faith.
Then they're doing business and, and, I'll just check this morning, our sons and is in Montana, he's got his own RV and he lives in travels in that, and he's on his way to glacier national park and our daughter's out in Colorado and living in the mountains and they're doing great. And I'm sure that sometime later today we'll communicate with both of them.
So, you know, was it tough? Yes. Are they okay now? I think so.
Rodney Olsen: The narrative that we all like to believe for the great American dream in your case, or the great Australian dream here, and we see it in the movies is that we see people who go through a terrible downturn. but then something happens. They ride it out and everything goes back to normal.
So according to that big narrative, you should now have your $15 million back, you're back in a huge home. Is that the case?
Tim Winders: My wife and I have been nomads, homeless nomad since 2013, Rodney. We spent some time in Australia, New Zealand briefly for a while too. And we currently live work, travel in an RV, and I will say this, we have more cash in the bank than we ever have in our lives.
We. We are at peace. We are at rest. We are walking in, I don't even know if the term's victory or what, you know, it's kind of a churchy word, but we, we actually are functioning at such a higher level. As far as peace goes. Than we ever have. So the 15 million in the bank, no remember that was 15 million in real estate at the time that wasn't liquid, we have more cash liquid than we ever have and I'll, and I'll tell you why I'll give you the, the lesson learned. We were doing extremely well, you know, four or five and six, but every time we had an increase in our revenue or wealth, We also increased our lifestyle to match it and coming out of what we did in 2013, where we became homeless, we use the word nomads.
It just sounds better, but we were homeless. We made, we purposed that as a dollar came in. That we would live off of a minuscule percentage of that dollar. And the rest of the dollar would go towards some giving that we like to do. We would go towards some accounts that we would set aside for our children.
It would go into investments. It would go into just having a boatload of cash sitting there. So as our finances increased and they have. We kept doing that. And so. So the answer to your question is exterior someone looking in might go, well, they don't live in the big house. They don't drive the cars, but we probably are living a lifestyle that many would envy because we go where we want to go.
We do what we want to do and money doesn't rule any of our decisions.
Rodney Olsen: It's extremely counter-cultural. We are told that we're going to be judged by what people can see and yet you're talking about something that's very different and yet there's a peacefulness that, that most of those people who are grasping for those things don't have, do you realize how counter-cultural that is?
Tim Winders: I not only realize it, I embrace it and pursue it and I don't want to say I take pride in it, but in many ways I get energy knowing that I'm observing the masses and doing the opposite, you know, on, on our, on our first season of our podcast, Rodney, I was, I felt led to share a lot of the details of this story and as, as that unfolded, and as you know, in the industry, you're in, you know, sometimes talking through things is almost one of the best ways of processing and, and even me communicating with you right here is just a great way of kind of, having some wisdom come forth because you like go, huh? I never thought about that.
Great question, Rodney. Thank you for asking that, but in light of what you just said, We are in a culture and let's call it first world. I've been to Australia. So I know it exists. I've been to New Zealand, I've traveled quite a good bit. And of course I was born and raised and lived most of my life in the United States.
We have a capitalistic society that is fueled by increase. If you and I are not increasing our consumption, the wheels of the economy can grind to a halt. And that's what we saw in Oh eight, the debt structure and all ground to a halt. That's what we may be seeing right now. If people don't get out after the pandemic and start spending money somehow some way, because the, the world can't function, that world can't function.
If you just have one big screen TV, It can't function. If you just have two big screen TVs, Rodney, it has to function. If you are putting a big screen TV in every room of the house, and if every year comes Superbowl or the, the championships of rugby or, or whatever it is that people watch, they need to go out and get a new one, and then they need to take the old one in stored in their garage or their storage facility.
That's what makes that world go around and so to get off of that cycle, that forced  consumption, it takes a lot of work  to not be constantly accumulating. It's the anti accumulation mindset. Some people will call it a centralism or mental minimalism or something like that. So, Rodney you're exactly right.
And, and once you get over that hump or that bubble, it is so enjoyable. not to be in that mode of, of being at the whims of the consumption accumulation society that most of us live in.
Rodney Olsen: There seems to be a difference that you're talking about of a lifestyle that will control someone and demand so much of someone and the sort of lifestyle you're living, where you dictate what happens and you dictate the lifestyle.
Tim Winders: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, you're talking about a control thing and a lot of the reasons that people get under stress is because they're out of control and, and you know, there there's a certain degree of, we don't control a lot of what goes on around us. You know, in many ways, Rodney, what we do is we kind of live our lives allowing other people to make decisions for us and when I say other people, if, if we're in a home and Joe and Sally that lived next door, pull in their driveway with a nice new, you know, smells great vehicle, we look out our windows. And even though we don't need a new vehicle, All of a sudden, we begin having this discussion of, well, you know, if Joe and Sally got a new vehicle, maybe we should get a new vehicle.
You know, not that we need one, we got one, two or three or four already in the driveway, but Joe and Sally got it. So, so what we end up doing is we attempt to impress people that really, we shouldn't be impressing. We need to just be thinking about what, what are we doing? I'll I'll, I'll tell you exactly the way my wife and I think if I could kind of go down a mini spiritual path here, we desire to be in a position to where if during our quiet time where we're just having conversations with the Lord.
He says, you know, I think that you guys need to travel to Perth, Australia to hang out with this new friend of yours, Rodney, that you talked to on this podcast, he's doing some things in ministry. He's doing cross country bike rides. He's, he's attempting to minister people there. I think y'all just need to go and see what you can do to help him.
We just want to be in a position to where, if that's what we feel in our heart, soul, spirit, whatever, then we can say, you know what? Let's go. And we can do that, that we don't have burdens that are weighing us down that keep us from doing those things. If that makes sense to you. I don't know if that makes any sense at all.
Rodney Olsen: That makes a whole lot of sense and I think a lot of people would resonate with that thinking. "I wish I had the opportunity to do that. I wish I had the freedom but I'm tied down by so many things." So it's, it's very refreshing. Now I want to reflect back. We talked earlier about how, when you were before the financial crash, you were guiding people and coaching people to amass, whatever wealth they could and then you found you didn't have anything to teach. Well, these days you're coaching again, I imagine the sort of coaching that you're providing for, for businesses, it looks very different to what it looked like way back then.
Tim Winders: Yes, it does and it's interesting story, you know, when, when you go through that type of we'll see, we'll call it a collapse. I don't, you know, I guess that's a good word for it. It can really rattle your, confidence and I've, I've probably especially pre Oh eight would be one that someone would say, Oh, look how confident in some ways, possibly arrogant, you know, that guy is. And, and that probably is one of the big things that has been adjusted.
But when you go through all of that, there is quite a bit of guilt and shame and sight, man. I don't think anybody, I don't want to put myself out there and share any more, but, but Rodney and about. You know, we, we kind of launched and started our nomad lifestyle in 2013, 2014, just traveling around about 2015.
I started getting phone calls and I wasn't marketing. I had no funnels. It wasn't like I even, I may have had a website up that still, you know, kind of told a little bit about who I was. I started getting phone calls from people and they were saying, Hey, listen, can you help us? Can you help us with our business?
We need some, somebody to coach us either from a leadership standpoint or marketing or help us grow the business. And I said, sure. And, and, and so I actually started getting people that were reaching out to me. That just wanted me to help, grow, expand, fix portions of their business. And he was a, these were in all industries, some were in real estate, Rodney, but others were just industries that I would not have a background in, but we know success, principles and principles that we use to grow businesses are, are somewhat common across a lot of industries.
And so I just started doing that. And, you know, I consider those blessings. I consider, as I was attempting to humble myself, I was just having some people reach out. So it started bringing financial reward into us. And, and that was a real blessing. And, and that continued to grow. And. There are still clients that came to me in 2015 that I'm still working with on a monthly basis.
So the ideal thing that I love to do Rodney is work with the leader of an organization. And when I say organization, I mean a company, a business or a ministry, because we also have a five Oh one C, three or nonprofit that we call it here in the United States. And, and I actually work with the leadership or the leadership teams, and I coach them one-on-one I just, this last week had a facilitated session for two days while I worked with them on their mission, vision values.
And now we're working strategic planning to implement all of those things and put them in place so that they can grow from wherever they are, to where we believe that they need to be. And that's really kind of my sweet spot of what I enjoy doing. I get a lot of energy from that. And I also think this is kind of interesting.
I think it relates to what you were asking. I think it was Mike Tyson that says the fight. Doesn't start until somebody gets punched in the nose. And any net, as far as business, as far as finances, as far as my perspective on life, I think I could safely say, I felt like I was punched in the nose pretty hard.
I was actually probably pummeled a little bit more than being punched in the nose, but you know, you pick yourself off the mat. And you kind of assess where you're at, make sure things aren't broken or there's not open wounds that the wounds are becoming scars that you could learn from. And then when you get beyond that and move beyond that, there's just a tremendous amount of wisdom from going through that punch in the nose, because what you're going to do is you're going to start allowing for.
Preventing that punch from occurring again. And then when you work with people, you can help them prevent that punch in the nose, also.
Rodney Olsen: You've touched a number of times on the spiritual side of this journey. We all know in relationships that sometimes there's an event that happens or someone who says something and we think, you're not the person I thought you were, and I have a sneaking suspicion that you suddenly thought, you are not the God. I thought you were. Tell us some of the lessons that have come out of the kind of God that you discovered through this.
Tim Winders:  I think the biggest lesson for me is that I would attempt to be guide in certain areas of my life and then some areas I would allow God to be God and so the biggest change you asked, what did I learn about God? I think what I'm doing is I'm twisting it and saying is that God was the same all during this process. It was really what was I allowing God to do in my life in certain areas is the change that occurred.
And, and I've done a deep study in the kingdom of God and Matthew six 33 is a great scripture for anyone who hasn't spent a lot of time around scripture. It's, Seek ye first, the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you. And those things are things of the world, like the possessions and finances and all that we talked about earlier.
And boy, I was really heavily involved with the things and I needed to start seeking that kingdom in all areas of my life. So that, so the shift that occurred, Rodney was really more in me and that I started allowing God to be God. I submitted to God in all areas and I'm hopeful now it's all areas. I mean, I may discover in the near future that there's still some areas that I've got to sacrifice and submit, but as best I can tell now, just with the piece that I see and the fruit and the way we're living, I'm doing much better.
I'll say it this way. I'm doing much better than I was doing back in Oh six, seven, eight leading into that downfall because we're just at a nice peaceful place. And the fruit that we're seeing from all of that is just really enjoyable to us. So, so I guess I kind of twisted on you. God, didn't change. I changed through all of that,
Rodney Olsen: Tim, it has been an absolute delight to speak to you and I know that there's so much more that we could explore over time, but we're gonna leave it there for the moment. But Tim, thank you so much for spending some time with us on Bleeding Daylight.
Tim Winders:  Thank you, Rodney. I've enjoyed the conversation.
Emily Olsen: Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 

On Bleeding Daylight, the story that changed the lives of all those involved. 
We hear about Az Hamilton’s escape from a very dangerous situation in a country overtaken by rioting. What Az describes is a shared experience. Az and I lived this dangerous escape together. So this is also my story.
 
 
Just Motivation: http://www.justmotivation.com.au 
Az Speaks Podcast: https://anchor.fm/justmotivation
Compassion Australia: http://compassion.com.au
Compassion International: http://compassion.com 
 
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen: Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen: Something very different on Bleeding Daylight today. We’re going to hear the story of Az Hamilton’s escape from a very dangerous situation in a country overtaken by rioting.
 
The difference is that it’s a shared experience. Together with a handful of others, Az and I lived this dangerous escape together. So this is also my story.
 
What we share in this episode of Bleeding Daylight is a story that transformed both of our lives. The events we describe are real and set future directions for both of us.
 
Please listen and then share this very personal edition of Bleeding Daylight.
 
Rodney Olsen: I've known Az Hamilton since April of 2008. We shared a remarkable experience that we're going to explore together today. He's been reaching out and calling young people to a bigger life since he was still in his teens. These days, he works to inspire and empower young people. It's a pleasure to welcome Az Hamilton to Bleeding Daylight. Welcome Az.
 
Az Hamilton: Mate. Thanks so much for having me on your show.
 
Rodney Olsen: At the time we met, we were both working in radio. So tell me about those radio days for you. When did the radio bug bite?
 
Az Hamilton: You know, it was a funny thing, for me radio actually probably bit in my mid teens, my brother did radio announcing before me on a little community station in a place called Toowoomba in Queensland and he had this little radio show that he did with one of his friends from school. And I think ever since I can remember, I've saved every dollar for, you know, music for the the actual show. So we used to spend all our money on CDs and my brother would play them on his radio show.
 
So the second, my brother quit radio, cause he couldn't do it anymore, I literally went, can I have a go, I've got the CDs and that's actually how it started for me. So I'll literally rocked up with a box of CDs with no skill. And they said, well, we do need a show. You own all the music. Alright, you can have a go. So that was when I was 18 and I did about 10 years of radio from that point on, on and off. So yeah, it's, it's, it's sort of got launched out of my brother's passion and I used to listen to his show and go, Oh, I want to have a go of that.
 
Rodney Olsen: It's an interesting passion to have radio does bite fairly hard and as you say, you're involved in radio for a number of years, but alongside that you are spending time speaking to young people, even from that young age. Tell me a bit about that.
 
Az Hamilton: Well, actually, what was interesting, like I've always been passionate. I'm about the underdog. I don't know. I don't know what it is even when I was in school, like, uh, I went to a very, um, I suppose, a pretty straight Christian school, you know what I mean?
Like, you couldn't really go too far outside the box, or it was sort of very hard for you to fit into the community. And so I always had a heart for those guys and girls in the school community, even when I was in school, that kind of just didn't quite get it, uh, when it comes to faith and things like that.
 
So, and even the underdog. And so I've always been that way. And so when I got into radio, I did voluntary work, obviously in radio, you gotta to start voluntary. I'm sure you did too. And then when I got my first paid gig, I remember my very first week or so a guy walked in the back door of our radio station and I was star struck. I was like, Oh my gosh, like this guy, I can't believe it's him. It's him. And, um, the guy was, it was actually Sean Hart who played for the Brisbane Lions at the time he rocked in and he was just in the lunch room. And I remember going to my boss and saying, is that showing up? Why is Sean Hart here?
Cause I'm a mad AFL fan. He goes, yeah. And I said, why is he here? And he said, Oh, I forgot to tell you. A part of your job is you're going to be going into schools, with Sean Hart and doing a program on making good life choices, uh, every week. And I must admit there's a couple of things, went through my head at that stage.
 
And a lot of people don't know this about me, obviously being a speaker and a communicator for a living now, prior to that, I was actually extremely shy through school. I didn't do any public speaking. I didn't do any drama or anything in front of people. Radio was kind of an outlet, you know, no one had to see me.
 
So when I got into radio, I had no desire to be speaking publicly. I just wanted to talk in the studio, do my own thing. So my boss is now telling me, Oh, you're going to be doing sort of public speaking and doing communication stuff on a stage in front of students. It freaked me out. And it wasn't something that I thought I'd enjoy it all but over literally doing this program with Sean, probably for the next four to five years, like I just found my passion because I was sort of forced into something I'd never done before. So that's sort of where it all started and I've probably become more passionate about that kind of medium of communication then even, you know, obviously the radio sit behind a microphone sort of situation.
 
Rodney Olsen: So, how did it work for you as an 18 year old, still learning how to make your own life choices, and you're going into schools, telling young people how to make life choices?
 
Az Hamilton: You know, it's so funny. Cause I, if I had a dollar for every student that I talk to in schools, now they come and go, I want to do what you do and I say exactly the same thing to them. I go, well, you need to have a life story to begin with. I mean, Sean would do the program most days and he would, he would speak for about 45 minutes and it actually happened that. On this one day, I remember it was this primary school and these kids were just being so like, they were painful.
 
Like if you can imagine, Rodney, like the worst students ever anyway, Sean, takes some time out. He literally comes over to me. I'm just waiting for my five minute spiel at the end, to be honest. And he goes, do you have anything you can add to this story or something that can speak to these kids? And also interesting I just had a life story, like this little story that popped into my mind of when I was younger and something happened with me and my brother. And so I shared it. And the kids were completely enthralled by it. It's something I'd never shared before, completely enthralled and straight out of that show said to me, every time we do the program from now on, I want you to share that story.
 
And so it was kind of a very organic growth in my public speaking space. I from then on every week, I would share that story. And then it, as Sean's career kind of ended in football as the transition of him not being as relevant as a footballer, sort of turned out that I would do about 50% of the presentation and he would do 50% so it was very tag team.
 
And I did that yeah. For five years and yeah, really loved it. And obviously that sort of led into being a communicator, uh, organizations like Compassion and things like that. If you, if you ask my teachers, do you think he'll end up being a public speaker or communicater that they'd probably laugh at you to be honest.
 
Rodney Olsen: Our paths collided in 2008 in April. We met in Sydney where we were just about to jump on an airplane. Tell me a little bit about that story from your perspective.
 
Az Hamilton: Well for me, uh, I mean, that was about the fourth year of being involved with Compassion Australia, uh, sponsoring kids. It was through radio. I sponsored my first child, uh, reluctantly didn't, wasn't huge fan of giving up my money, but it kind of challenged me.
And then I went on a bit of a journey. So it was about four years into that whole, getting to know about Compassion. And then obviously we got invited as radio announces to go on this trip. For me, cause obviously being very young, I think I was 20, 22, 23. Like I'm going to be pretty honest. I was pretty unorganized.  and even up until about two weeks beforehand, I hadn't got my injections. I hadn't really, I didn't even know where Haiti was. We were going to travel. I genuinely didn't even know, Rodney. Like I remember. After being to the doctor to get my injections. When he was like saying, don't go, you're going to die.
 
Like you probably should cancel his trip. I looked up on a map where Haiti was because I hadn't, for me being a young bachelor, it was just like, Oh, I'm getting two weeks off work. This is pretty cool. I get to travel. I haven't done much international travel. So when I rocked up to Sydney and met you guys, to be totally honest, I actually had no expectation for this trip, except that I knew I was getting off of my show for a couple of weeks and I was getting to travel and you know, that was, that was pretty much me. And that's, that is probably as naive as you possibly can get before traveling to somewhere like Haiti. But that's, that's really where I was at.
 
Rodney Olsen: My most enduring memory was meeting you there. You were a young guy with very long dreadlocks turning up at the airport and we had just been given a couple of packs from the local Compassion representative they had a bit of water in there and some hand sanitizer and things like that and you turning up going through security. And they said, did you pack your bag? Do you know everything that's in your bag? And you said quite innocently and truthfully, no, I don't. I don't know that that was a good look for a young guy with dreads.
 
Az Hamilton: It's so funny you say that because I don't remember that, but what's great about that story is that we recently, Beck my wife and I recently had to talk to a young guy who traveled to the States who just did exactly the same thing. He got to the airport, they said, did you pack your bag?
 
He said, no, this, this is your bag. I said, no, it's my mother-in-law's bag. Cause he borrowed it for the trip. You know? Like, is this that young innocence of traveling for the first time? Yeah, I didn't know what they'd given me, Rodney. I don't even remember doing that, but I do remember getting patted down.
 
That does make sense. I did get taken to the next level of security once again, 22. Oh, I'm on a trip, whatever. No big, fortunately though that I feel like the world wasn't as crazy back then. I don't know. I just feel like maybe it wasn't as crazy as it would be now. Maybe I would have never got to Haiti if I did something like that now, but yeah. Thanks for reminding me of young Az.
 
Rodney Olsen: So you're talking about being disorganized. I do remember, of course we're going on a trip for a week and a half or whatever it was back then. And, and on that first day, we had slept over in Miami on the way off towards Haiti, and you said, Hey, let's stop at Kmart. I need to buy some shirts.
 
Az Hamilton: Yeah. Yep.  Absolutely. Well, because this is the thing I hadn't, as I told you this before. I didn't even know where I was traveling to. I'm not a very organized person. Like I remember, I remember getting calls from people at Compassion, saying, like, as I said, like two weeks out, like I should have had my, you know, immunizations or whatever.
It was all the different sort of, um, you know, shots and stuff like weeks earlier. Yeah. Now, have you had your shots? I'm like what shots they're like, have you read the email? I'm like what email? You know? And so this is very Az Hamilton in his early twenties, just very, ah, like I mean I had dreadlocks pretty as a real chiller.
 
And then I remember, I think we got to Miami and everyone was really stressed about the dress code in Haiti. They were like, you need to wear a button up shirt. I'm like, I'm a 22 year old bachelor I don't even own a button up shirt. And I bought some of the daggiest clothes I've ever owned because I needed to make sure that I fit in with the people.
 
Um, and then when I got there, I went, I could have just kept my old clothes. I'm pretty sure. Um, and I think went on, on, uh, on arrival back in Australia. I think I just went straight to the bin and dumped those clothes. I don't think I've ever worn them again, but thank you for reminding me of that. That that's really nice.
 
Rodney Olsen: I had my own moment in that store. If you remember, while you were picking out shirts, I headed straight down to the back of the store and found a bicycle that they had on sale and I rode that up and down the aisles so that I could say that I'd cycled in the U S so there you go.
 
Az Hamilton: See, that's absolute passion.
 
Rodney Olsen: There's a lot of fun leading into this trip, but once we get to Haiti, things start to change and I remember the very first morning after we had arrived in Haiti and had traveled up towards our hotel and all wide-eyed seeing what was going on. And we got up the next morning and there were these meetings going on. There were discussions happening. Tell me a little about that.
 
Az Hamilton: It's interesting how you have different people's perspectives of a trip. Let's see, for me, I remember sitting on the outside of them. There's was a lot of whispers, whisper, whisper what's going on, but it was a young guy. Oh yeah. Whatever. We're going, whatever.
I do remember them saying something about, we're not going to some region. Oh, we're going to change the area we're going to, there's been a little bit of unrest in the streets. I remember the word unrest was used a few times, a little bit of unrest. But don't worry a bit of unrest and like, and you've got to set this up for, for those that are listening.
Like when we, the things that stood out to me were, I don't know if you remember these things. The things that stood out to me was that when we rocked up to our hotel, there were people with weapons out the front, there was armed guards. And I thought that was quite unique to go to a hotel and there's guards.
 
And one of the guys from Compassion said, this is where you'll be staying. If you stay inside the walls, you should be safe. Then that was, for me, that was the stuff that stood out to me going all right, where are we again? Like, why are there people? Why are there guards? It's what, you know, this is a hotel. I don't, I don't really don't really comprehend this, but yeah, obviously the next day there are all these meetings about, there's been a bit of unrest we're going to a different project. Um, and so that was, that was it, you know, I was like, okay, no worries. Didn't even think much more of it. I don't know. What, what were you thinking? Oh, this is serious at that stage or were you just going, yeah. Oh yeah, no worries. Like I was just blasé.
 
Rodney Olsen: I really didn't know what was going on. I think a bit like you, I was kind of on the outside of those conversations. There was four of us from different radio stations in Australia had traveled to Haiti to see the work that Compassion was doing so that we could head back to Australia and be able to tell those stories. So of course we needed to go and visit the projects as you say, connected with local churches and, and you're right. They did use terms that would suggest that nothing much going on, but we'd better not go there and so we're thinking, okay, if, if that's the case, then, then we'll, we'll just sort of relax a bit and we'll go to a different place with no idea of what was about to unfold and I don't think we still had any idea until it really did begin to unfold. And maybe you've got a perspective on when you first realized that things weren't as they should be.
 
Az Hamilton: Every, everyone has a life story that changes the trajectory of their life. And I think that morning, that fateful morning where there's been some unrest in the streets, um, impacted me on multiple levels.
 
Everyone remembers things differently. I remember things like rocking up to the project. There was hundreds of kids jammed into this room. It was very basic, but the kids were so happy to see us and. You know, obviously I had my dreadlocks, the kids wanted to plait them and so that was pretty overwhelming.
 
I remember I'm feeling deeply personally that I think thinking to myself, man, I'm a rubbish human being. I complain about so much stuff. These kids.are really simple living, very basic, simple lives. And somehow they found joy in this moment. And, um, I remember we hung out at the school or we looked at some of the stuff that Compassion was doing.
 
That was all very impressive, and I don't know who told you Rodney in this time, but for me, I remember Guilbeau. He was one of the guys from Compassion came up to me, whispered in my ear, Az we need to go, go to the, go to the vehicles. We need to go. There's been some unrest we need to go now. That was the moments like, Oh, okay, sure. And I remember when he was sort of old sort of bye kids and we found ourselves in that vehicle. So I don't know how you were in that pro what were you doing or thinking, how did you even find out we had to leave? Did you have a whisper in the ear or was it sort of like you just followed everyone else? What was going on for you?
 
Rodney Olsen: I distinctly remember, we were told that we would have opportunity we're there as radio people, we needed to record interviews and so we had our recording devices. We'd interviewed some of them kids through a translator. And we were told that some of the parents were going to turn up and that when they turned up that we could interview them too, to let them tell us what the impact of Compassion on their family was and yet parents were turning up, taking kids straight away, turning up, taking kids straight away. And I remember them saying, ah look, they, they wanting to take their children home. They feel safer there. And we realized that something was not right. And then we spent a fair bit of time just in the office talking over what happens in the program rather than just spending time out there with the kids and, and then they said, yeah, we need to go.
 
Az Hamilton: Isn't that incredible that you remember that? Because I remember being in the office. But I don't remember anything about the parents rocking up or any of that stuff. Isn't that insane? I was probably so caught up in hanging out with the kids and knowing me being who I was back then, you know, very, whatever, pretty chilled, you were there on mission to make sure you could get as much radio as possible. Whereas I was just, they're probably thinking, I'm just taking this in.
 
Rodney Olsen: Make no mistake. I thought I was going on an adventure. This is something that, that has radically transformed my life as it has for you. And yet I was thinking here I am, I'm I'm on an adventure and yes, I needed to, to gather the audio and gather the stories and I had that mindset, but I was there for an adventure too and none of us were expecting what then happened.
 
Az Hamilton: No, and, and once, once again, I remember we got to the point where we had to leave and the two, four wheel drive vehicles. I do remember that I was in the vehicle I'm pretty sure I was in one of the vehicles that was a ute styled tray kind of four wheel drive, and we had another vehicle go ahead of us. It's a bit of a blur this next bit for me, because I think I'm trying to put timelines on what happened when I do remember we were driving down, um, heading towards where we'd come from and I remember people from the local community coming out of their sort of side alleys and out of their homes sort of just pleading with our driver, go back, go back. It's not safe. And you can see, you can see on their faces that, uh, this is not good. This is something's not right. And we didn't really know what was going on. Obviously I think the Compassion staff were trying to protect us from as much as they could, like try to keep us calm.
 
And they did an amazing job because I remember our drivers turned around at one point and went in a different direction. And then I remember going down that direction and then it happened again. I do remember, uh, the driver and he's like, no worries. We'll find another way. We'll go to the office.
 
And it was very much like, okay, we're changing all our plans. We're going to take you to the Compassion office in the middle of town. It's going to be safer there. That's when everything just sort of got out of hand and crazy. Is that, how you remember what, what was going on and how do you remember that exact same sort of process of getting from this project into town, in the heart of what we're about to see?
 
Rodney Olsen: I believe we were at trying to head back to the hotel. They had decided that rather than visiting another program, which was originally on the agenda, that it was safer to just go back to the hotel but in the meantime, as you say, we changed direction and, and streets that we'd gone down before now had barricades and, and it was just not safe. And as we turned onto that main street, that would have led us to the hotel. That's when I remember people running down towards where we were, uh, with fear in their faces saying, do not go up there. And that's when we went through the gates of the Compassion office and went inside and then things got real.
 
Az Hamilton: What I remember is getting to that main point before the people were running at us and we were on that main road in the heart of town. It was like the main street of Port au Prince and there was no one around, it was like, it looked like a bomb had gone off. I don't know if you remember, um, just like the burnt rubbish up the sides of the roads. Cause for me instantly, as soon as we hit that main road, I felt like I was in some kind of movie reel.
It felt like something I'd never seen, it was like, this is not real because there was fires and it felt eerily quiet where we were driving. And I remember Edouardo just slamming on the accelerator, like whiplash in the back, like just takes off. And yeah we landed probably a couple of minutes later, you know, now idling out the front of those big metal gates of Compassion and as you just mentioned, people running at us saying, you can't go further down. And I also remember there was a group of guys that had machetes that ran up behind our vehicle and they stole some stuff out of the back of the tray, I think it was like some drinks or soft drinks or, um, or some water bottles, whatever.
 
And that is sort of took off and we will all just waiting for these gates to open. I remember it seemed like an eternity. I know that one other guy in the car, one of the other announcers, he was really emotional because he could see what was coming towards us from down this main road and I don't know if you remember it clear as I do, just sort of seeing a mob of people waiting on the other end of the road, coming towards us. Like they were in some kind of march or riot or something, and we're sitting in the car, we can't move because the Compassion staff they'd already shut these gates, cause they knew it was coming and we're kind of calling them and saying, let us in and they're trying to move cars around and it was just one of those very time stands still, but everything's moving at a very rapid pace. Uh, and as the, the gates open, I remember we went in, shut the gates really quickly, and all I remember was, come with us, be very quiet and it was just very much about it like, just move fast and we just follow the staff into these office buildings and that sort of thing. What I remember to that point. What do you remember from that? Like that these are the points that sort of stick to my, my memory that I can play over in the mind. You know, you see it over and over and over again.
 
And it's sort of seared to the memory bank, but what was, what was the memories in that moment for you?
 
Rodney Olsen: Well, certainly as I mentioned, those people running down the street towards us with, with fear in their faces and that was because there was that group, as you mentioned, that was further up the street coming down and so they were wanting to get out of their way and they were warning us to be away as well,  and that's when we did get through those gates eventually and went upstairs and then we stood at a very high window, which seemed to be untouchable for us, but we were at a very high window and started peering out and seeing some of those people come down the street. Some of them were with bits of wood and other instruments,
 
Az Hamilton: Metal pipes.
 
Rodney Olsen: Metal poles and all sorts of things.
 
Az Hamilton: All sorts of weaponry that they could find, whether it be a machete. Um, I don't think there was a lot of guns. It was more just like, what do I pick up? And I'm just trashing and stuff. And this is at this for me is definitely, let's say that, you know, you're, you're memories are connected to emotions. My emotions were at all time high. I remember peeking through the blinds cause we were, we were peeking through the blinds. We're very high up. In an office building. And I remember feeling exactly the same as you. We're safe now we're in this office. As long as we stay here, we'll be fine. You know, they can't see us. Uh, and it was like clockwork.
 
It was a very surreal experience like clockwork, few hundred, maybe a thousand people marching through the streets, sort of past our building and they kept on sort of walking past and there was screaming something that were chanting something and if anything was in their way they were breaking it or smashing it.
 
And for me, the most defining moment is that at one stage, these guys had gone past our building and I must admit, I felt a sense of relief that they've passed. They're gone. We we've, we've dodged this bullet in a sense. And then like for me, the worst possible thing happens. I remember there was a rioter who passed our building, who was just part of this, you know, riot protest and I reckon he was about 19 years of age, 20 years of age, he was only a young Haitian guy. And I remember him stopping in the middle of the road and just looking back at our building, like looking up at him and always standing directly next to a garden.
 
And Dan. Uh, who is from Sydney. And if you've ever had one of these moments where you lock eyes with someone, you know, you just get eye contact with someone and you're like, Oh my gosh, I can see it like this. But you know what I'm talking about, Rodney, right? You, you see someone, it doesn't matter if you wanted to get eye contact, but if you lock eyes, there's just a moment of, we we've connected.
 
We now know each other and I remember locking eyes with this guy. And I remember literally like in a sheer moment of panic saying to Dan, and this is the succession of how I remember things. I remember saying to Dan, Dan, they can see us. Which was something that I didn't think was possible how high we were.
 
And Dan was a very level headed guy and he's like, Az we're pretty high up, I don't think they can see us from down there, but I'm sure I was locking eyes with this guy, unless he's looking past me. He was one of those, you wave to someone and they're actually waving at the person behind you. But I remember feeling like we know he can, they can see us right now.
And Dan kept trying to reassure me that we're pretty high up Az it's not that bad. And then it was within a split second or two. One of the Compassion staff members says it's probably not safe to be near the glass. Let's go to another room. It was this sort of just, maybe we'll move into another room.
 
And as we turned around, that's when everything just went pear shaped I remember the massive explosion in the room, glass just shattering and we've all hit the deck. Do you remember that?
 
Rodney Olsen: I do remember where we were reminded. Hey, look, it's probably not safe to be there step back. And it was just as we stepped back that there was this huge sound.
Now I don't know what you thought it was in the moment because I still can't be sure what I thought of in the moment what it was, but I know that certainly some in the room thought it was a gunshot, but we didn't know, but everyone dropped to the ground as glass started to shatter around the room, we later found out it wasn't a gunshot, but it was still pretty frightening.
 
Az Hamilton: Actually. I wish I had it, but I had an old camera. And I remember going back into that room just before he left. And we'll get to that later to take photos, all the glass all over the floor. Um, and yeah, it'd been rocks had come smashing through the windows and they just completely obliterated, um, one of the entire front windows, unfortunately, that camera in transit disappeared.
 
So I had no, no proof of that, but I remember thinking this, I think, did we get shot at what was going on since that glass here? And we were on the ground, it was, it was panic stations. I mean, the staff were like, get up, go. And we were running through the back of these, um this office block. And we found ourselves, bolt locking a door into a small office where the staff were now telling us the people have seen us and we're not sure if they'll turn on our building. We've got I remember one computer in that room. Do you remember one? I can only remember seeing one computer. You can write an email to someone you love, and that was that it was just such a terrifying but definitive moment of this is real like you, gotta write something to someone you love. This might be the last thing that you write but the people have definitely seen us and we don't know what that mob is going to do outside. Whether they're going to try and take down a gate, come into our building, but now we're just locked in a room and, um, we're going to do our thing.
 
Rodney Olsen: It was a very scary moment, as you say, and we're, we're in a back room. And for part of that, we had some local Compassion people that were with us, but most of them were off in another room room trying to sort out what it was that they thought that we should do. What was that that maybe needed to be done to, to secure our safety for not just for us, but for everyone there. Maybe at this point, because we've, we've talked about there being, rioting people and all the rest, maybe you can give us a bit of an understanding of, of why there were riots in the street.
 
Az Hamilton: It's so interesting. Obviously we got out and that's a whole, that's a whole ‘nother story. Um, but I do remember we were being evacuated. We're waiting the airport asking questions. Cause like you Rodney, it like that was, they were chanting in their own language.
 
Like they were saying something over and over and they were yelling and screaming. I remember watching on the news, seeing the president pleading with the people, please calm down. What had happened was we got explained to us, what had happened was the food prices have gone through the roof on this little Island called Haiti and it's only a couple of hours away from Miami on a flight. So it's not far at all because the food price has gone through the roof. And the cost of living had gone up and they were earning the equivalent of what two American dollars a day. There was a massive food shortage and the people were, rioting was literally chanting somebody help us. Our children are dying as stomachs feel like, I remember this statement when they told us what they were saying, one of the statements was as stomachs feel like they're being eaten by acid. Our stomachs, feel like they're being eaten by acid. Please help us. It was only after we got out of Haiti I went and did a lot more research on what they meant by that and throughout so many of the rural communities, kids were known to eat these mud pies, which were literally just soil mixed with sugar and oil dried in the sun and you can still look this stuff up it's just full on and they were like mud pies and the kids would eat them. The parents would say, eat this at least your stomach will feel full. And I think the stat back then was something like one in six children on the island wouldn't even make it to their fifth birthday, and I think the nightmare of Haiti for these people became extremely real for me in that sort of 24 hour evacuation process. And it changed me.
 
Rodney Olsen: This is in the setting of 2008. It's the time of the global financial crisis, which as you say, raises the price of even the most basics of food. So it was the global food crisis at that time. And this is what the people were rioting about. They couldn't feed their children and having to eat mud because they wanted to put something in their kid's stomach, but they had nothing to give them and I guess, you know, like you, it was one of those things that was a defining moment where I decided I've got to do something about this. Now you mentioned that we've got to the airport and this is some of the discussion that we're having, but that trip to the airport, this is the following morning we'd been in the Compassion office. The rock had come through the window. Finally, the streets were calm. We made our way back to the hotel. And as we're going with seeing all these buildings that had been absolutely destroyed and looted by people, just looking for food for their families, spent a night at the hotel and then there was the trip to the airport.
 
Az Hamilton: This is the thing about this trip. Even little memories. I just got, it reminds me we would get back to the hotel, which was crazy in itself. I remember the radio station from Brisbane, my boss calling me getting through, calling me and saying, can we send in helicopters?
 
How do we get you out? And like, you don't understand. Cause on the news that night, they were canceling all flights in and out of Haiti. There was all this sort of discussion. We don't even know if we can get a flight tomorrow. So it was really interesting. And I do remember them saying we're going to leave super early in the morning because when it comes to a community like this, often throughout the day, the riots and the protests get larger and larger.
 
Like that's what happens as the people kind of keep on coming together. So if we can get away early, we should be able to avoid the mob, get you to the airport. There was one point out that they were, you know, trying to get us on. And that was the plan. And I remember leaving early and actually seeing the other was very positive, same peaceful and quiet in the streets.
 
It just seemed like, yeah, we're going to be, we'll be able to get to the airport. And then in a matter of minutes, it happens again, we are confronted by a bunch of people running it at car, and they're saying, you can't go through there. Uh, the roads being blocked off, further down the road. It's not safe. Our driver, Eduardo is once again, trying to keep spirits up. No worries. Well, no, we'll go back to the hotel. And I remember we turned around and we were headed it. Must've been half an hour period of time. We're heading back towards the hotel. Cause I think they sort of went let's just abandon getting to the airport at this time.
But the problem was at the other end of this main period of road they had barricaded that end as well. So we we'd found ourselves caught between two of these riots or two of these barricaded protests, which were just highly dangerous. Cause I don't know if you remember in the news, I mean, people were being killed in the streets as well.
 
The day before, as you said, everything was being obliterated. And then, you know, I remember Eduardo saying, no worries. We'll find another way. Like he was so, it's amazing how some people just have the ability to go. I know my reality, but I'm just going to stay positive. Cause these people just need to get out and I'm going to find a way.
 
And so we are now finding ourselves, uh, driving down a part of the city or through an area in the city that probably, you know, you normally wouldn't go. And in this sort of slum sort of area and I remember we're weaving through these little roads and it was just getting more and more congested with people.
 
And those people sort of peer into our vehicles getting closer up to the vehicles until it got to a point where, we're in the heart of the slum. And they're saying, I just remember the, the words are sort of broken English, it was like, no way out. No way out. And that was that's the moment probably for me in this trip at the age of 23, 24 or whatever I was, can't remember somewhere around that, that I'm genuinely thinking to myself, This is the day that I die. Like this is it and that's where I was at at that point.
 
Rodney Olsen: It's interesting those times and the memories that they bring back. I do recall sitting in the car thinking that if this all goes as wrong, as it's likely to go, if the doors of the car happened to it to open, and I was looking around for places that we could run to and then slam ourselves behind these  metal gates in, in these different places and trying to find a way, how can we stay safe? And I remember, and you probably remember this too, where we were in a place where the cars just had to stop, because there were so many people around us and there was a guy with a metal bar and he was trying to incite the crowd to actually attack us until someone, and we only have this translated to us afterwards, but someone in the crowd, looked at the vehicle pointed to the Compassion logo on the side and said, wait, they're from Compassion,
 
Az Hamilton: They help the children. .
 
Rodney Olsen: They help out, they help our kids let them go. And that's the only reason we're still alive.
 
Az Hamilton: It's actually crazy. I do remember that guy. I remember being terrified by the fact that there was a real sense of let's overthrow these vehicles and the good reason for it. So I think we had two vehicles full of, you know, these, these Aussies that had money, uh, had equipment that was worth money. Uh, and you've got an absolute desperate situation.
So we were, we were an option to maybe be a solution for a few families to survive a little bit longer by maybe removing us from the picture and the first vehicle we got to this barricade. And there was, yeah, there was all these sort of like militant sort of guys that were arguing about letting us through.
 
And you must've been in the second vehicle, I reckon because the second vehicle got stopped and it was at that point. They let a second vehicle through because they help the children. I remember the first this vehicle got through somehow and they were waiting for us to come through and that's when there was the sort of overthrow of the people saying, no, don't let them through the other vehicle can go and whether it was, I don't know what was the reasoning for it. And then there was some, has someone in the crowd identified that work with Compassion. They help the children let them through and it was like the doors opened again, for us to get through and get out. And I just remember waiting for our vehicle to go through.
 
I think I thought we were going to get out of this. We're going to, we're going to see, um, you know, some opportunity to get through this crowd. Cause it was such a thick crowd surrounding our vehicles. And it was just because of this one person, this one guy who somehow convinced the crowd, let them through, let them through.
And I remember the picture of the people just opening up, like, like the road, just opening up and having a vivid feeling and a vivid thought process. It's like seeing the Red Sea part, but with people so that we could drive through and we drove through this crowd of people and got to the other side side of the sort of embankment.
 
Um, and it sort of opened up from that point. I remember clearly having an image of this small child on the other side of the scene back then looking out because everything actually, everything is just in slow-mo it's it kinda doesn't it doesn't add up. It's it's kind of, this is this really happening and I think, cause it's happening in real time and it's all happening so quickly.
 
You're trying to process, how is this happening and why is this happening? And it's such an interesting experience, but I just remember, like, it was almost like my whole life pause on the other side of this embankment, as that cars were getting ready to move forward again. And I remember looking to the right of the vehicle and seeing this little girl at the top of, of rubbish.
 
Like she must've been three or four. And it was this huge pile of rubbish, like bigger than houses. It was just, this mound of rubbish is a rubbish tip and she had a stick that was attached to a piece of plastic bag and she'd made her own kind of self-made kite and she's just waving in the air and she's just giggling, like she's just giggling and just full of joy.
She's watching this piece of plastic, just sort of taking off in the wind on the top of a rubbish pile, this memory of this kid, it just seered into my memory that here we are, this crazy situation's going on all around us. And there's this little kid somehow in the mess. And in most manic situations has found her own place of play.
 
And has found her own place of escape with something that she's created out of rubbish. And I know that's just a bit of a weird tangent to take but I remember so clearly, because it kind of just hit me to the core of my being about what am I complaining about? Like, who am I to be this guy from Australia?
 
Like, even though in my mess, in that time of like survival, I was still like, oh my gosh. This is daily life.
 
Rodney Olsen: One of the people that we had traveling with us was the Vice President of Compassion for that area and he originally was from Haiti and I remember him getting out of the vehicle and trying to find a way ahead and that was going to be difficult because there were people everywhere. As you say that the roads or tracks really, they were, uh, were getting narrower and he actually found someone who was prepared to show us a way. And of course at that stage, we didn't know whether that was taking us to some of his friends around the corner who were then going to attack and rob, or whether he actually was leading us out of there.
 
But we were told we had no choice. We had to move because staying where we were was dangerous. So we didn't know whether we were going to another danger. Or whether this was something that is going to see us to safety and I remember we kept going slowly and till we finally turned a corner and there was a crew cab ute and there were people on the back of that crew cab ute with weapons, but they were police. And this gentleman who, uh, worked for Compassion, who was originally from Haiti the image that is seared into my mind is him putting his hands up. He was a very big gentleman and there he is with his arms outstretched, way up in the air, walking towards these police very slowly so that they could see had no ill intent. Uh, he explained the situation to them of, of what was going on and it was then that they agreed to give us an armed escort to the airport. Again, it was one of those defining moments. Like I said before of, of where we were told they help our kids let them go and this was another one of those ones that kept us alive is that the police agreed that they would escort us out of that dangerous situation and get us to the airport.
 
Az Hamilton: I remember exactly the same thing. I remember, um, seeing the Compassion staff member, having his hands in the air and we're just like, what are you doing?
Cause he just left us in the car. I'm going to go and do this. And yeah. Being escorted to the airport with people, with their weapons out. Are, do you remember? Well, one of the females on the trip, um, wanted to get video footage or take photos in this moment. Cause she was just like, Oh, we need to get proof of this.
 
You know? And the rest of the guys in our car were like, put the camera down. This is not the time. Like we're, we just need to somehow get to the airport. Like let's not try and cause any more issues, and that's, it's quite interesting arriving at the airport. I remember getting dropped off and we went into the airport and watching on the news, how the United Nations base next door to the airport was deploying all their heavy artillery.
 
They were rolling out tanks and. All sorts of heavy artillery vehicles just to try and keep the peace. Um, you know, the president was on the TV trying to, to calm people down. And we, I suppose for the next few hours just had to, uh, navigate this idea of what's going on outside and are the mobs going to around the airport?
 
Are we actually going to be safe? Is there going to be a flight coming in? And, uh, yeah, that's for me, you know, over those next few hours, just waiting for this flight that was going to somehow get us out of this country. Uh, super bizarre time. waiting.
 
Rodney Olsen: It was a strange time and eventually we did get out. So in the midst of this turmoil of people who are rioting, not because they want to bring violence on anyone, but just because they could not feed their families, because they did not have enough to put food in the stomach of their children and they're, they're saying someone, listen, please, someone listen and help us. And we finally flew out of there. And, and I guess the memory for me is going down that runway, looking out the window, seeing fires burning all the way around Port au Prince, the capital of Haiti, where there been barricades and riots and fire everywhere.
 
And then in a surreal moment, looking down in the grass, along the side of the runway, seeing kids playing soccer, and taking off, and this sense in which I felt finally we're safe, and at the same moment thinking, but there are 8 million people living in Haiti who are never going to afford a ticket to get out of this place.
 
They are trapped here, they're trapped into poverty and I think for me Az, that was the moment I said, I've got to do more to, to tell the story of these people so that they don't have to continue to live this way.
 
Az Hamilton: I had the same moment I had exactly the same moment. I remember flying out and then looking out the window of this plane.
 
I remember running on the tarmac just to get on the plane. I remember getting on the plane and we didn't do any of the safety checks. It was just like in and out so quick. It was like, we've got to get you out. I had this crazy overwhelming sense that when I go home, I need to be a voice for those kids who do not have a voice.
 
That was it. It was like, you need to do this. It was quite a fascinating thing when we got to Miami, I remember on, on landing, uh, my phone beeped and it was from my mom and my dad who actually in the States at the time, they finally got my email about how. I was locked in a room at the Compassion office and we might not get out alive but I just want to, you know, let you know what's going on outside there's rioting and so they were writing like freaking out, not sure what was going on and I remember writing back to mom and mom and saying, hi mom, we're safe  we're back in Miami. Um, and I remember saying to her. Um, I don't think I'll be, I think I need to go and speak for these kids. Um, and I, I think I need to quit radio.
 
I think I need a, I'm just so convicted by this. I don't know if I can go back to just interviewing like musos and celebrities, whatever that is. I think maybe I just, I just need to be a voice for these kids. And my mom was like, you know, very motherly. Like she's like, just don't do anything stupid.
 
You're just emotional because I've been building a radio show. I was doing something that I loved and I was doing, I think, quite well at it. And it was, it was just for my mom being a mom, probably thinking, okay, you're just emotional and not knowing the full extent of what was going on. I think I had good reasons.
 
It'd be like, just relax. And that was it for me. It completely changed me. I came back. I do want to say that I remember being back, we'd been back for a week or so. And one of, one of the girls from Compassion Newcastle actually came up to the radio station to debrief and she wanted to put on a morning tea and say, thank you.
 
And I want to maybe share a bit and she wanted to share. And she shared on that day about the moment that we were caught in the, in the backstreets of the slum where they were saying there's no way out and she said, when we're in Compassion in Newcastle, we got a text from a DJ who was sort of the head of the team that took us over there.
 
And he had messaged and said, you need to pray. You need to pray for us now. We may not get out of this one and, you know, DJ's been to on, on like dozens of trips all over the globe. And he. Um, had personally felt that this, this one we may not get out of. And so she's sharing this experience, um, from there and like, just on the Compassion in the office kind of experience of this team and she starts sharing and she said, you know, we started praying for your protection and we started praying for you instantly.
 
Like we're talking while we're still in the slum. Like in that moment where we can't get out, they're praying. And she said, that a lady in the office stood up on a chair and prayed God part, the people like the Red Sea and everything in me just went, that's exactly what happened. That's what I saw. That's the revelation I had when the people parted.
And we went through, I just was like, what, what did you just say? And it was for me, just a moment of our living, God answering a prayer. In real time on the other side of the world. And for me, because of that revelation and that clarity of God working and moving in that moment, it just struck home as a core to my own heart again, that no, no, this is not me being crazy.
 
I need to go and be a voice for these kids. Like this is not just me being emotional, experiencing something that, you know, it's it's you experiencing some posttraumatic. Um, stuff know this, this is, this is a conviction that there there's some kids starving to death on an Island, and no one knows about them and no one seems to care and I need to be a voice for that.
So it wasn't long after I over the next three or four weeks, I tried to fit that call into my radio career. I tried to use that experience and go, I can do it through radio, but I knew my time was up. And so I think it must've been about four weeks after I went into my boss and said, here's my resignation.
 
I need to go and share with teenagers about the world they live in and how they can actually change things for the better for kids that are in need. And my boss was like, do you have a job lined up? I'm like, Nope. I just have to do it. So I quit with no, you know what that would look like. It was pretty amazing.
 
I ended up being able to step into another job within 24 hours in a different ministry space was able to volunteer with Compassion and over that next nine months, Compassion opened up a role actually created a role for me to be a youth communicator for them, for the country and sort of build some youth product.
 
And so I just look at that and I just go, yup, life defining moments and some people say do you want to go back to Haiti? Would you go back and I would. There's something about Haiti. It has my heart. I would go back and even though it's crazy, there's something about that place. That has captivated me the last 12 years.
 
And, uh, I just went on mission for that next, I dunno, three to five years with  three years with Compassion, to be a voice for those kids. And then post Compassion when I started my own thing in schools, working with teenagers, and just challenging young people to have a heart of thankfulness, a heart to be generous and in the right time, to reach the needs of those around them, with their generosity, with their love, with their kindness, uh, with the empathy and, and that's what I'm still doing today. And I suppose the, the foundation of it was that trip with you.
 
Rodney Olsen: It certainly was, was an interesting trip and I did come back and worked in radio for another five years, but used that opportunity to, to speak out on behalf of Compassion and behalf of children, wherever possible until six and a half years ago, I actually started working for Compassion and that's where I am these days due to that, that absolutely life changing experience that we had. You've touched on there, the work that you're now doing with the, the organization that you founded and that you run called Just Motivation. Tell me a little bit more about that.
 
Az Hamilton: Yeah. So as I said, I mentioned, uh, worked with Compassion for three years in their youth department. And unfortunately with the global financial crisis has actually caught up to Compassion back then and had to lay off a bunch of staff, those, um, redundancies that happened, and we were about to launch a national product for youth and I'd worked very hard on it.
 
Um, and just in a short period of time, that just obviously that, that door shut for me. And so I actually found myself in 2011 having to finish up work and I sat down for, in any cafe for about six weeks. Um, just asking, God, God, what do you want me to do with my life? Like, what is it that you want me to do?
 
Because I don't think it's radio. I do believe that social justice is heart of helping the needy and the poor. That's your heart. Educating young people on the world that we live in is important. I love working with teenagers. And so over this period, I sat down, it was, it was just a combination of going with social justice, a passion of mine and motivating.
 
So Just Motivation kind of came out of this. This is my heart. And I started sort of running programs mainly just on those sorts of topics and obviously that story was one of those things. Uh, and speaking schools, I started off with a program that was just like a 45 minute session. Just sharing that story and, and giving some really practical outworkings of how we can actually change our world as young people.
 
And then that sort of developed into full day leadership and faith sessions. So this year is my ninth year I spend my time with, working with teenagers challenging their hearts towards the things that I believe God's heart is. And we have a lot of fun. I use a lot of humor and we do big group activities, and on an average day work with anywhere between 102 hundred students.
 
And I'll just work with that group by myself running this program. Yeah, for me, I just want to challenge young people to use the giftings and the passions that they have in their lives to impact others in a positive way. And, uh, absolutely love it. Absolutely love it. So yeah. Obviously started a podcast as well the Az Speaks Podcast for teenagers as well on a weekly basis. Yeah, absolutely love it.
 
Rodney Olsen: Do you ever cast your mind to where life would be if you hadn't had that, that trip to Haiti?
 
Az Hamilton: Yeah. I look back at a lot of things in my life that I, just go God's so kind to me, uh, I feel like it's interesting, you know how some people, so they just have a natural ability just to go on life's journey and they don't need like shock moments they don' t need, like really like a punch in the face to get your attention. Unfortunately, with me, I kind of find that God has to get my attention by doing the slap to the face, wake up. Hi, this is where I need to take you. And I've just been really fortunate that there's been these core moments in my life that have led me to where I am.
 
I think about moments like sponsoring my first child like that. It was a definitive moment. I think about trips like that to Haiti. There's how many of those sort of stories that have lead me to, where I am? And I do, I do sometimes think if anything, with the Haiti trip, I do think this, and I don't know if you ever thought this, imagine if we went to Haiti and it was just a very stock standard, uh, you know, we got to see the good work that Compassion does, which is incredible. And if you don't sponsor a child with Compassion, go and do it today. If you're just listening to this, just go and sponsor child, like is the greatest thing you can do.
Um, if we just got on a normal trip and yeah, we've met some great kids and we've met some great staff and we saw the great things that they were doing, helping those kids and then we got on a plane and came home. I wonder if the gravity of what Compassion is doing would have really hit like, and I'm so thankful for the trip that we got.
 
And it was a once in a lifetime trip and even for those leading the trip. They wouldn't have expected it. I don't think a trip has happened like it since. Um, so I am thankful I was on that trip. I get students ask me all the time. Like if you, if you had your chance again, to go on that trip again, would you do it?
 
And obviously you go, well, it'd be a bit crazy to put yourself in a dangerous position like that. But if I knew that the outcome was the same, absolutely. Like you would do it. Absolutely. Because. These things change you for the better. I think I'm a much better person, nicer person, kinder person, more empathetic person because of it.
And, um, yeah, I'm thankful for the experiences that I've had, even in my younger, like young years, the life stuff that's happened to me because it does, it develops you and your character and the way you see the world. And I'm, I'm constantly, you know, growing. In those areas, but yet definitely do think back to those sort of things like a trip like that and go, yeah, um, I'm so fortunate that I was on that trip.
 
Rodney Olsen: Az I do look forward to seeing what are some of the other defining moments that God uses in your life from this point on and where that leads you because it sounds like it's been an incredible journey so far. So I'm gonna sort of keep that in mind as I  continue to watch your life and what happens in it, but I want to say a deep thank you for spending time with us today and sharing with us just a piece of your story. Thank you.
 
Az Hamilton: Thanks, Rodney. Really appreciate it.
 
Emily Olsen: Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 
 

Dave Ebert is someone who has turned comedy from something that masked his own pain, into something that brings healing for others, including women released from sex trafficking. In this episode of Bleeding Daylight, we get to explore a little of the inner conflicts that Dave has faced over the years and the way that life is now so very different for him.
 
 
Gifts for Glory Ministries
Speaking, Improv Performances and Coaching, and Podcast
www.gifts4glory.com 
www.facebook.com/gifts4glory 
dave@gifts4glory.com 
 
Well Versed Comedy - Improv Comedy Ministry 
www.wellversedcomedy.com 
www.facebook.com/wellversedcmdy 
improv@wellversedcomedy.com 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
Emily Olsen: Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen: It's almost a cliche, the comedian who is secretly battling depression, the person who makes everyone else laugh, but who is fighting their own inner struggles. Dave Ebert has a passion for comedy, but the laughs haven't always been easy for him. Today, we get to explore a little of the inner conflicts that Dave has faced over the years and the way that life is now so very different for him. Dave, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Dave Ebert: I thank you so much. I'm absolutely thrilled to do my first international interview.
Rodney Olsen: Now I know that your main comedy discipline, if I can put it like that is improv. So does that mean I'm going to have to be on my guard today?
Dave Ebert: Well, I am one to always throw something out.
I'm the master of one-liner. So every time I see an opportunity, I swing, they're not always going to be home runs, but, you know, you can't, you can't get a home run if you don't swing.
Rodney Olsen:  Absolutely. We're going to be talking about your comedy and a little while, and the amazing ways that you're using comedy to make a real difference for others.
But first, let's talk about some of those darker times. When did you really start to notice that what you were facing wasn't the normal ups and downs of life.
Dave Ebert:  For most of high school, I really battled with trying to find my self worth and trying to find my place, and why was I here? And, my dad was, very sick for most of my childhood.
He had served in the Vietnam war for the, for America. And, unfortunately caught the side effects of agent orange, which I'm not sure if your audience would know about that, but that was a chemical that the Americans used during the Vietnam war in the sixties that, caused a lot of genetic damage to the soldiers that were onsite. When he comes back from the war he's healthy young man and then within 20 years, he's fully disabled. He's unable to do the things that a man his age at that point should have done. So he didn't know how to handle that. as a young man growing up, I didn't know how to handle that. So there's a lot of conflict with my father on top of the normal teenage things.
And then my junior year in high school, 11th grade, I, was pursuing this girl and. she broke my heart and that, that was the moment it went from the normal ups and downs in the battles that I felt myself really like cross into this new threshold, where it went into depression where I was constantly looking, ah, for some kind of way to ease the pain, some kind of way to lighten the darkness.
But it would just always hung there. I never went to get it diagnosed. but all the telltale signs were there. I was always the class clown. So now that I was into this full depression, that humor was coming out is a way to defend myself and prevent anybody from knowing what was going on inside.
Because not only was I feeling bad, I was feeling bad about feeling bad. I was feeling. Guilty for allowing myself to feel that much darkness and for somebody that hasn't been through it, maybe it doesn't make sense. A lot of people think well just snap out of it, go for a walk or do this or that. But when you get to that darkness, any motivation to do the self help, that's actually beneficial, all that motivation goes away and you're just there in this dark pit. I was contemplating suicide on a regular basis. It was literally a day by day thing. If I could justify myself, I can make my life seem valuable enough to live another day I would. And that's where the humor was coming in was if I made somebody's day a little bit brighter, I made somebody laugh a little bit, then I could justify, okay.
Maybe there's a reason that I'm here, that I'm alive.
Rodney Olsen: And I'm guessing that the fact that you're using comedy as your way to cope and maybe put a smile on someone else's face. Doubles that issue of people not knowing that you're going through something because you're always laughing. You're always causing other people to laugh so there's no reason for them to be concerned.
Dave Ebert: Exactly. It was. It's a very, effective cloaking mechanism. It's a great way to hide severe depression, severe pain and to the untrained eye, you think, Oh, you know, Dave, you know, he's a great guy. He makes people laugh. He's always there to, to help people and try to brighten their day.
And it takes a trained eye and somebody that's got the ability to kind of pull back the layers and see, all right, there's something deeper than that issue. One of the things that when I address depression, suicidal tendencies, or thoughts in trying to raise awareness is look for the self deprecating humor, which was something that I did a lot and making fun of my weight because I'm not a small gentlemen, I'm way above 400 pounds. You know, being big has always been something that kind of defined me. That's actually a very good sign. If somebody is consistently tearing themselves down, find a time to pull them aside and say, Hey. Are you really okay.
But don't take the first answer because the first answer is always going to be the deflection. if you're really care about somebody in you're concerned that all the self harm, humor, the stuff that you're making fun of yourself, ask the second. And the third question, try to dig because when somebody is in that place where I was they're not going to give you the, the honest answer right off. It takes more than that first question of, are you okay? No. Are you really okay. You look at somebody that's international known Robin Williams. He was so good at putting smiles on other people's faces, but deep down he was struggling and he's a tragic loss to the world because his talent was so great but inside, he never, I don't think he ever really let anybody truly inside so that he could address the darkness that he was feeling.
Rodney Olsen:  So you're saying that you were trying to cover that depression, that you were feeling through comedy. Were there other ways that you tried to deal with the depression?
Dave Ebert: Even though I'm a larger guy? I would always try to play pickup basketball, get out of the house. I would try to be around people. And that was part of the humor thing is if I'm around people, even, even if it's playing pickup basketball, there's something about being in a community that I could find a way to either create opportunities for humor, or just have that comradery where if I'm running up and down the court, I'm not thinking about the weight and the darkness.
So I compensated by trying to be around people as much as possible. And then also the, the self-harming practice of eating consistently because food became a friend that I could go to. Food is kind of like the best friend that always gets you in trouble. the one that's always daring you to do the one thing that's crazy.
The one thing that's, you know, over the top. So it's one of those things where, you know, food became my best friend, but he was always getting me in trouble because. I developed an addiction and a habit of always going to food. You know, food kind of came, became my drug. Many people will turn to harder things. My drug was food, macaroni and cheese or cheeseburgers or different things like that.
Rodney Olsen: And that's, that's a lot more socially acceptable. Isn't it?
Dave Ebert:  Right. It is a, if you're a big guy and you eat and it's like, Oh, okay, he's a big guy. He eats, it takes people who are really, really close to you to say, Hey, you know, maybe four trips up to the buffet is a little bit much right.
Didn't you already have dessert. Why do you need another huge slice of pie? Those kinds of things. Yeah, it was that thing where I had that defense mechanism up so well that nobody got inside close enough to where they could see that all of these things were warning signs.
Rodney Olsen: And this started, as you say, in high school, how much further did it go? How long did this depression stay with you?
Dave Ebert: I finally kind of got out of the deepest recesses and the darkest places. in 2013. So we're talking from 1997, two a 2013. It was just a case where it didn't lift until I truly found a relationship and pursued a relationship with God.
Rodney Olsen: How do you go about finding a relationship with God? I mean, that sounds like an interesting turn of phrase. What does that actually mean and what did it mean for you?
Dave Ebert: As a Christian, I have the unique ability and the unique opportunity to have a actual relationship with the God of Christianity. It's a personal thing. It's not some mythical creature in the sky that I have to please in the Bible.
He clearly refers to himself as, as father. And that's the role that he wants to play to the father that, that takes joy in his kids. Now, how did I get there from depression? It's really funny because God was really a part of my life even when I didn't let him be a part of my life. you can look back at different places in my, in my life where it's like, wow, God really was there.
He, he was involved in my life. Yeah, throughout the depression, there were many times, where I took some silly risks that probably should have ended my life. There were times when I was driving a taxi for a railroad company and I would work driving 36 or 48 hours straight. That should have resulted in me not being here.
my diet and my, consistent consumption of energy drinks and things like that. That should have claimed my life by now. there are other things like I had taken a job at a radio station to be a DJ, to be an on air personality, introducing the music. Yeah. Really cool thing. And be famous and all this kind of stuff.
But a week into the job I got demoted and I got moved over to a smaller sister station where I wasn't on the air, but I was operating behind the scenes. But the interesting thing is what was a demotion and a hard thing for me was God's hand in just kind of instilling different things in me, different opportunities to learn about him because I went from a country radio station to a gospel station and, the gospel station that plays, Christian music, there are live preachers on the air all the time and so here I am feeling again, that depression, but I'm, I'm listening to all these messages about God and the whole time that I was depressed and upset and not really receiving it, my mind was still hearing it and still remembering the messages. He took, what was meant for bad in my demotion and my removal from the fun job, and he turned it for good because for those two years, I was learning about God and hearing about God constantly. so it, it's a really unique concept because no other faith that I know of has that close relationship where God is actually pursuing somebody. It's all about us trying to catch their favor or do something for them but God, the God of the Bible, the God of Jesus Christ, he's a God that wants a actual relationship as your father, and as my father, he consistently reached out to me to try to get me to turn around and realize that living in the dark hole, where I was in the depression and the pain that I was, it was not the best way, was not the way that he wanted me to live as my father.
He wanted to pull me out of that. But I had to realize, and I had to choose that there was a better way and the better way is to follow and seek God in that one on one close relationship that was made possible, because of the life of Jesus Christ. So when I say I started a relationship with, with God, it was because he had put so many things in my way to tell me that he wanted to be in a close relationship with me that I finally said, okay, God, I'm sorry I've missed it for so much. Here I am.
Rodney Olsen: There's an idea that if you are not living the way that God wants you to live in any way, shape or form, then you really need to get yourself straight before he's going to listen to you. We hear so often the message coming out of the church is that you're not good enough. You need to live up to a certain standard. Was, was that the experience for you? Did you have to get your life together before you started this relationship that you're talking about?
Dave Ebert: Oh, absolutely not. I was still a mess.
So sometimes God will flip the switch in your brain and if you're somebody that's suffering from depression, he'll flip a switch and heal you immediately 'cause he can do that because God created our human bodies. So he knows exactly what's needed to flip those switches. If you read the new Testament, Paul talks about a thorn in the flesh.
Sometimes we just have to live with certain things because God's going to still use that in your story. Paul, the greatest writer of the new Testament of the Bible, he still had a thorn in the flesh, something that ailed him, that God didn't heal, but he used it. so for me, when I started praying and started pursuing that relationship and trying to develop that communication with God, There wasn't this great moment of suddenly I was healed and taken away from depression.
It became a gradual process of healing. Oh. Where God was doing, was working on my heart to strengthen it, to grow it up. So I would never tell somebody to believe that you have to get everything right before you come to God. one of the greatest stories of how God saves how Jesus saves is the thief on the cross.
If anybody is familiar with that story, when Jesus was sacrificed and  was dying on the cross, next to him were two men. one was a thief that mocked Jesus and the other was, was a thief that said, Jesus, when you die, remember me. Now this thief was dying on the cross. He was paying a similar penalty that Jesus was in that moment for completely different reasons, but they were both dying and he didn't have his life together.
He didn't have to fix everything. He didn't have to go and repay that for the things that he'd stolen. He turned his life over in that moment and said, Jesus, remember me? When you go into your kingdom, were his words. Jesus, remember me when you pass on when you die and he didn't have his life together, he had no chance to.
Now that's not an encouragement for anybody to wait until they're at death's doorstep to suddenly remember Jesus, because you're not guaranteed that moment. But I would say that you don't have to get your life together. The idea that you have to fix everything before you go and find God. If you could fix everything on your own, why do you need God?
That's that's the lesson that I think the church needs to get out more is that God wants you to come as you are, and you don't have to change to win his love, cause you've already, he already loves you, but you'll change on the inside because of the love you have for him. For anybody that's ever had a dating or marriage relationship where you marry somebody because you've fallen in love with them.
There are any things that you do differently because you've fallen in love with them because we have that special relationship. When we're married. There are things that we stopped doing because we love this person that we're married to. We love somebody so much that we're willing to sacrifice some of the things that we think we want.
And that's the similar relationship that you can develop with God when you accept Jesus as your savior, like the thief on the cross did. It's not about fixing yourself. It's not about fixing your life. It's about just saying I'm a mess. I can't do this. I can't figure this out on my own. I, I try hard, but I can't get it.  right and it's just turning everything over and saying, Jesus, remember me in your kingdom? God forgive me. I'm broken. I'm a mess.
Rodney Olsen: You use there the analogy of a marriage and how we view relationships and I believe that it wasn't all that long after you started that relationship with God that your own marriage came along.
Dave Ebert:  Absolutely. One of the things that I didn't mention in my story up to this was, in 2006, I got married, my first marriage, and it was not built in a proper way as we were dating, we had made some mistakes and, she said that she was pregnant. So we kind of hurried a wedding. she lost the baby just before the, before the wedding, but everything was booked and we said, well, let's go for it where we believe that we're going to be together, so let's get married anyway. Biggest mistake of my life. we got married and immediately we came home from our honeymoon and things just started falling apart and at this point, neither my wife at that point, or me had really known who God was. So we know we had no source of trying to find a way to fix the marriage.
So it became fight after fight after fight and then suddenly just reawakened the depression in me. And we were married for four months to the day when we filed. We got married on August 26, 2006, filed for divorce, December 26, 2006. So the day after Christmas we're meeting at the courthouse to file for divorce. It was, it was excruciating because here was the depression coming back.
The, the voices in my head, they were telling me I'm not worth anything. They're like, see somebody promised to love you forever and they couldn't even make four months. And so, you know, all these things came back. And so that really fed into my depression for the remainder of that time. But once I finally found that relationship with God and I started reading the Bible, started to really pray.
That's when life turned around and I left. A small rural town in West Virginia, but I went from there to Chicago, which is completely different world, but I came to Chicago and within two years of moving here, I moved here in 2013 and in 2015, I got married to my wife, Bobbie, as I've grown closer to God, I've also grown closer to my wife because the relationships are so similar to have a successful relationship. There's gotta be vulnerability. You gotta be vulnerable and willing to pursue truth and not your personal truth, you know, intimacy and vulnerability. That's how you have a successful relationship that builds closeness and love and the ability to trust that the person you're with or in this, or in my case, the, the God that you're trusting.
That you know, that they've got your best at heart and that you can trust in them. You used to use comedy as a way to suppress that oppression. And really it was something that he'd what was going on underneath.
Rodney Olsen: You're using comedy in a very different way. Now tell us a little about that.
Dave Ebert: Absolutely. So when I moved back to Chicago to pursue opportunities, to use humor as a way to do much of what I was doing when I was depressed, using humor to make people's lives better, to brighten their day to encourage them. But instead of having it as a defense mechanism to hide where I was, which was exhausting now I'm using it as a way to try to invite people, to find their own relationship with God.
so we do clean comedy that's accepted, you know, that's accessible for people of all ages. we don't want families to feel excluded. So we love having kids come to the shows. We've even done shows for entire audiences of children. And it gets crazy because  we're built on audience suggestion and feedback.
So when you start asking for volunteers or ideas, you get 300 kids shouting. Some shouting the same thing. Some shouting outlandish things, but you get 300 kids just shouting. It's it's so much fun. Yeah. So doing comedy now is all about bringing people up. One of the things that I like to tell people is I used to use comedy to hide who I was. Now I use comedy as a way to reveal who he is and that he is God, because God is joy and light and love and he's eternal. He's bigger than what we see in the world so much is going on in the world, especially right now in America. There's just so much turmoil. We're in the middle of an election year, there's the virus thing that's been going on,  there's the, the racial climate that's just exploding right now. God's bigger than all that. God's going to outlast all of that and no matter how bad things get, I know, and I have a hope that. This is going to be the way it is forever. It's going to be painful now, but eternity is a really long time.
And eternity is longer than we could even understand as humans. When we make people laugh. We can kind of break through some of those walls that are built up by the world. there's walls that separate us between black and white or this race or this gender or, or this socioeconomic class, we can break through those walls and realize there's so much more that makes us similar, that makes us different.
Rodney Olsen: I believe that there's a special group of women that you've been teaching improv to as, as a way to, to help them to heal.
Dave Ebert:  If I don't do anything else with comedy, but I can do that. That's one of the things I'm most humbled and proud of, which is really kind of a interesting oxymoron that I could be both proud and humble, but it's really exciting.
I use improv as a way to, to improve the lives of women. Who've survived, sex trafficking. In America, you know, sometimes people in America think, wow, that's something that happens overseas that happens in Europe or Africa or wherever, but no right here in all throughout the world, every country has women and men and children that are caught up in this billion dollar industry.
It's on the most wealthy and powerful people and they're bought and sold like cattle for the purpose of sex trafficking. And sometimes women are able to get out and there's this organization called Salt and Light Coalition based in Chicago and at Salt and Light they help these women basically rehab and go from the life that they've lived for however many years, to a new life where they are getting job skills.
They're getting interview skills so that they can get a job or they're getting life skills so that they can cook and clean and prep for themselves. And so what I do is once a month is I'll use improv to work on their communication skills, to help them tap into some of the things that they've probably shut down, that as they've dealt with this, the horror that they've lived through.
So we tap into their creative mind. We tap into their communication abilities and we also try to use it to build up their self esteem because you know, these are, are you frankly broken people that have been so abused and so misused that they're still trying to find their self worth outside of that business.
So with improv, we're able to create these opportunities where, you know, they can be funny, they can be creative,  they can tell stories. They can make each other laugh and if nothing else sticks, once a month, we spend an hour together and they laugh like, like little girls, again, probably something that they haven't done for decades, if ever, and it's such a blessing to lead one of these workshops where I'd come in and work with these ladies.
And I see, you know, they're still carrying the burdens of the world with them because they're still trying to figure out what am I going to do to provide for my kids. Am I going to be able to get my kids back? because many of them resort to drug use to cope with the lifestyle that they're forced into.
so a lot of people will look on them and realize they may have a drug history because drugs history we'll leave scars and we'll leave its impact on, on appearance. So, unfortunately they're labeled before they even get in the door, even if they're clean. And so they're trying to deal with how do they live their life now as a clean individual, outside of all this hell on earth that they've been through.
And I get the opportunity, I get the blessing of being able to go in there and let them laugh. Give them an opportunity to laugh and see, their countenance change to see their physical stance go from one of burden to one of freedom, even if it's just for that one hour and I just, I love that opportunity.
And I also appreciate how important that opportunity is because these are women who have been abused by dozens or hundreds of men and now I have the opportunity as a man to go in there and to be a positive male influence. And I know that that was a risk, but that the organization took in asking me to come in and I, I appreciate the weight of that because I hope that my influence can help them start to trust all people again. And like I said, if nothing else sticks, once a month, we get an hour of just pure laughter and it's such an amazing gift to be able to do that.
Rodney Olsen: I imagine the depression that you went through those years ago is something that said to you, there's not really much to look forward to. There there's no hopes or dreams coming in the future, but now you're in a place where there are hopes and dreams. What are those dreams for the future for, for you and for your wife?
Dave Ebert: Our hopes and dreams are to continue to use. Our gifts as a way to draw people closer to God, through comedy, through teaching comedy and performing comedy, that's kind of where I'm at.
My wife helps behind the scenes with the comedy, but she is also, I'm a sign language interpreter. And so somehow God and his amazing ability to orchestrate and is going to use that somewhere. We know that we're both eventually going to serve in a missions field, which is going out and trying to reach people outside of church walls.
We have no idea where that's going to be. It could be here in Chicago. It could be in Ireland. it could be in Australia who knows. We're just kind of waiting to see where God wants us to be. Well, our biggest thing is we want to make sure that we tell enough people that the world is that is like the Titanic it's sinking and there's one life raft that's going to get you off of that and that life raft is named Jesus and however God wants us to do it because he's orchestrated so many different things for us so far, we know that he's got some plans ahead, because you know, the comedy team I have without some divine intervention, there's no way I would have met these ladies.
Which is another interesting thing that's the comedy team, that I'm a part of, I'm the only man on the team, the rest is four ladies. So it's so interesting to see how God can put things together without it being possible in any other way. I mean, you can call it luck or coincidence, but when so many things line up and so many things work, you're like that's designed that that's a plan.
That's not an accident. You don't get a 747 jumbo jet by accident it's designed and planned. so we're just looking for any opportunity that we can to make people laugh, to make people closer or find a closer relationship to God. My dreams would be that I could do that from a comedy stage for the rest of my life.
I don't know if God's going to open that door. I'm kind of hoping, because it's what I'm good at is what I enjoy, but I'm also open to whatever he has because I've seen him orchestrate so many really cool things so far that I, I, you know, I have dreams to perform in front of thousands of people, but yeah, if I don't ever do that, but I help one person change the course of their life because they found a relationship with God, then it's all been worth it.
Rodney Olsen: I'm sure that despite the fact that you have this relationship, you're talking about with God, that things aren't always rosy. So how differently do you deal with some of the issues that you face now as opposed to back then when you were battling that depression?
Dave Ebert: It's really interesting because we recently went through a painful, end to a relationship with somebody in our church.
And before, before I really knew the Lord and really it was in that place where I was pursuing when I was deep and then depression, I would have lashed out. I would have found ways to mock them to hurt them on social media, because that's what I did after my first divorce. After my first marriage ended is I found ways to lash out and try to make sure everybody knew that my ex wife was the bad guy that I had done everything, that, that it was her choice. So lashing out is something that I would have done. And there's still the temptation, because you know, I'm human and whenever you're hurt as a human being, you want to see justice. You want to see somebody pay for hurting you. So there's an instinct in it, that desire. But now that I have that relationship, I know that there's a bigger plan and that God loves the person that's hurt us as much as he loves us.
And he wants to see that person grow closer to him. So if I interfere in God's plan by trying to hurt them for hurting us, that's going to push them further from God and that's going to interfere with his relationship. So I know now that I don't need to interfere with that relationship, I don't need to go after that person.
Because God is going to deal with it and he's going to handle it in a way that's gonna make everybody better, and so having that knowledge and knowing that number one, God has forgiven me for hurting people. I've hurt people, you know, after my divorce or some bounce back relationships where I didn't treat the lady that I was dating correctly and I was more or less trying to meet my needs without really meeting her needs, and it was awful, but I know that God has forgiven me because, he promises in his Bible that he is faithful and just to forgive and that just means that we can count on him to forgive us when we seek it and when we genuinely want to be forgiven of what we've done. And then I've also, you know, because of this new relationship, I've went through the process of reaching out to the people that I know I've hurt and apologize to them.
There's a bigger picture than what I go through. There's a bigger picture of God's got a plan and he loves us all so much that he doesn't want the division and he doesn't want the hurt, to spread. He really wants to see us when we get hurt, literally turn the other cheek, literally, and the cycle of hurt with yourself and turn it over to him so that he can deal with it.
so I now know that, so I, I now want to make sure that I never continue a cycle of pain. That if somebody hurts me, mistreats me talks bad about me. I never want to be the person that's gonna take that and carry it on to another person, which is completely different than when I was in depression.
Because if I was hurt, I wanted somebody else to hurt.
Rodney Olsen: Dave, on a lighter side, as soon as you tell someone that you're a comedian, do you get the, the usual response of, okay, then make me laugh?
Dave Ebert: Yeah. I get, I get two responses. Usually. I usually they'll say something like, Oh wow, make me laugh. Or tell me a joke, which is really weird because I do improv comedy where it's just unscripted.
There is no plan. It's like we'll set up a scenario, we'll get the audience to tell us some ideas on how to incorporate new things into that scenario, but it's completely made up. So I don't have set jokes like a standup comedian. so it's always funny when people kind of, bring the two together and get them confused.
So like, Oh, make me laugh or tell me a joke or they'll say, Hey, I heard this funny joke you can use this in your, in your show. It's like, Oh, I don't plan what I'm going to use. I appreciate it. but yeah, people, it's one of those weird things you don't walk up to a doctor and say, Oh, you're a doctor well operate on me.
Or, you know, you're, you're a mechanic. do do my oil, you know? So, so, but it, it, I, it's always an opportunity to talk more about what we do. And it really can lead into this conversations where I say, why I do clean comedy. it's not just that I do improv or that I do comedy, but the why and the why is the most important part and that why is so that. I can hope we bring people closer to God.
Rodney Olsen:  It's been fascinating chatting to you today to find out about firstly, the battles that you've been through, but also the place that you are now in. Dave, thank you so much for spending some time with us on Bleeding Daylight.
Dave Ebert:  It's been my pleasure and my honor, you, God bless you on your show and everything that you're doing.
And I, one thing, if I could just send this out to anybody, my email address is always open. So if there's anybody that's been, or is where I used to be in that place of darkness and depression, I know that there's no one answer that's going to help you, but I am willing to listen. I am willing to chat.
I'm willing to talk. My email address is open it's dave@gifts4glory.com and that email will go directly to my phone and we can start a chat and conversation. I don't ever want you to think that there's nobody that will listen. I want you to know that there's somebody that wants to listen because they've been there and I'm not going to throw scripture or Bible verses at you.
I'm just going to listen and, we can talk and figure things out together, but you're not alone. That email address is for anybody that needs a listening ear. If you're in depression or if you're in the middle of considering suicide. I want to be there for you because I've been there. And I know number one, that there's hope and number two, I know that no, two depressions no two suicidal moments are the same, so I'm not going to preach to you. I just want to listen. That's dave@gifts4glory.com. It's always going to be open. So anybody that needs it can reach out and I'm willing to listen.
Rodney Olsen:  Dave, thank you so much.
Dave Ebert:  Absolutely.
Emily Olsen: Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Can a lawyer who is trained to rely on evidence still believe in the God of the Bible? Is faith more about feelings than facts? That’s what we’re exploring today on Bleeding Daylight.
Reverend Doctor Ross Clifford AM is a former lawyer, a theologian, political commentator, pastor, radio personality, and so much more. He has authored or co-authored over a dozen books. In June, 2010, he was made a member of the Order of Australia. 
 
Leading Lawyers' Case for the Resurrection: https://www.amazon.com.au/Leading-Lawyers-Case-Resurrection-Clifford/dp/1945500638
Ross Clifford on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Clifford
 
 
(Transcript is a guide only and may not be 100% correct.)
Emily Olsen: Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen: Can a lawyer who is trained to rely on evidence still believe in the God of the Bible? Is faith more about feelings than facts? That’s what we’re exploring today on Bleeding Daylight.
Rodney Olsen: My guest today seems to have had enough careers for several lifetimes. He's a former lawyer, a theologian, political commentator, pastor radio personality, and so much more. He has authored or co-authored over a dozen books. In June, 2010 he was made a Member of the Order of Australia and it's a real honour to welcome Reverend Doctor Ross Clifford AM to Bleeding Daylight. Ross. Thanks for your time.
Ross Clifford:  Good to be with you, Rodney.
Rodney Olsen: Do you get worn out just thinking of all the roads that your life has actually traveled down?
Ross Clifford: I don't actually I mean, I find it fascinating, but I think that's going to be the new normal. If I could use that term again that seems to be out there today.
I mean, so many people are exploring, you know, different aspects of life and changing vacation and God taking them into other directions. So for me, Rodney has just really been open to where you think you meant to be and where God's taking you
Rodney Olsen: And a lot of those different careers, so to speak have been simultaneously haven't they?
Ross Clifford: Oh, they were and still are, I'm still doing radio and I'm still principal of a theological college and, and writing. And, uh, you know, I just think that's, you know, who I am, that that's what God's called me to do. And I'm pretty comfortable with it.
Rodney Olsen: Let's go back to those very early days and your training and work as a lawyer. What drew you to that vocation?
Ross Clifford:  It was by chance, in some sense, I was looking for something to do and I left school and school had been pretty rocky and I found myself, uh, in the public service, the Attorney General's Department and discovered if I was going to move forward anywhere as a young, 19 year old, I had to study law. So that's basically how it happened, Rodney. And, uh, through that, I fell in love with law and had a real sense that this was somewhere where I could make a difference. Uh, and so I decided to do community law, really work with people and, and, and, and, you know, not the top end kind of law, which I found so distanced.
So I worked at King's cross in Sydney for a while. And then in Alice Springs and Tennant Creek.
Rodney Olsen: It must've been some interesting cases that you're working on with the sort of places you were working.
Ross Clifford: Oh, absolutely. And a Tennant Creek, for example, in, in the Northern Territory, it was an honor to stand with, uh, indigenous people and a stand for them before the courts.
But I must say though, you know, the sense of angst that we hear today was not there. You know, you could work with police and work with magistrates and courts, and I don't know, it just seemed to be a more decent society, if I can say that.
Rodney Olsen: So does it concern you that the issues that existed back then don't just still exist, but are being amplified at the moment ?
Ross Clifford: They are being amplified and I just don't know why, uh, you know, one would have thought that we would have moved on.
We were confronting them. 30, 40 years ago and you would've thought we've moved on, but rather it seems even more hostile, more hatred, more underlying ideologies playing out. And I think we're at a real stage in human history where we have to decide what are our values? Where are we heading? Uh, you know, we won't be taken over by people who have, uh, whatever agendas I have, but we'll work together on this in order to ensure that Australia is the place we wanted to be operating on Christian values, all people are equal. All people have human worth and we can do that together. Rodney.
Rodney Olsen: So that wishing that people would move on. That's not a case of, Hey, let's just forget the past. As some people would suggest, of working together to, to overcome that and move on.
Ross Clifford: Oh, absolutely. And having sat with indigenous people and represented before courts and done Aboriginal lists in places like Tennant Creek and being a regular lawyer under settlements, like , Warrabri, you know, it's about sitting and listening and hearing and understanding.
And, and finding structures that work with that. And we certainly had those structures days, years ago, nothing was perfect, but I'm sure we can do it again. And it's, it's honoring who we are, the past, we've all been through and finding solutions together on that basic Christian principle of human worth and human dignity for all people.
But let's be sure, Rodney, we don't let the agenda written take over this. We do it together as decent human beings.
Rodney Olsen:  It's interesting that in everything you're talking about, you're bringing this Christian aspect into it and where God is leading you. And that is as a trained lawyer who. Is dealing with the facts who is dealing with the evidence in front of you and yet, so often we hear this dilemma between people of faith and people who are looking at the science and the real evidence. Is there a conflict there at all?
Ross Clifford: Ah look, I'm one who knows what it is to doubt, Rodney. And my story is as a lawyer and exploring my Christian faith and being happy and having a real sense that God wanted me in ministry.
I came back from Alice Springs and Tennant Creek, and I came back to train for Christian ministry and within six months, I really had such a strong sense of doubt that I was leaving. The, uh, the, uh, the early studies for being a Christian minister and heading back to the Northern territory to practice law and to be involved in, in politics.
And it was over the resurrection of Jesus. I still had a God out there, but I wasn't sure that this guy was God. And I wasn't sure what this guy did rise from the dead. And so I was in the, in the middle of that personal angst. So, for me, the resurrection of Jesus and belief in the Christian faith is not just, Oh, that's something that I'd like it to be.
I mean, that's hard earned. I mean, God took me through a real cycle of seeing that I could have confidence to place my faith in the person of Jesus Christ.
Rodney Olsen: We're talking about an event that happened over 2000 years ago. How do you look at evidence? How do you deal with that conflict that in your own mind and come to a place where you can say, I can believe this?
Ross Clifford:  Well, that's a really good question. Uh, and I guess why my training as a a lawyer really helped me there. Uh, but you know, it's not rocket science and the stuff I've written, hopefully, you know, the average Australian can see, it's just common sense. I had to go back Rodney and ask, well, how good are these documents that tell the story of Jesus?
And that's just a miracle. Let me tell you. They're better than anything else we have from antiquity. And that's not just me speaking. That's scholars speaking. Yeah. We have 5,000 early Greek copies of the gospels and there's absolutely no doubt, Rodney, that as you read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John you're reading, as it was written.
And it goes to one of the most, uh, established and important techs for the resurrection of Jesus is one Corinthians 15 chapter 15. And I don't know how a scholar alive, who does not believe that was written by the apostle Paul. It's a very early writing. And it tells us clearly what he believed, what he believed he saw and what the early church practiced and what they're prepared to lose their lives for.
Mate, its just gold mine kind of evidence, if you know what I mean. These documents are good stuff.
Rodney Olsen: In one sense, we've got to say, we can look for the evidence that we want to see. Like for instance, I drive a blue Ford Escape. I really didn't know much about Ford Escapes until I bought one. Then every second car on the road seem to be that, cause that's what I was looking for. How do you overcome the bias of just going to seek for what you're after anyway?
Ross Clifford: Ah, good question again. And I think skepticism is not inappropriate.  God's asking us to believe in something that is life changing, and calls you and me to put our life into this movement and this cause, you know, being skeptical is not inappropriate, but Rodney, because of skeptical old Roscoe here, imagine what God gave us. You know, if you read one Corinthians 15, you read the gospels, you find, Rodney, the ones who give the best evidence, the ones who saw Jesus die, the ones who saw him buried and the ones who him rise again, are the women. I mean, it's not that the men are not in there somewhere, but the women give you that unbroken chain, uh, in that day, women weren't allowed to give evidence in a court of law.
The Jewish historian Lapide says the fact that it's women at the forefront is a sign that this is not an invention. This is not made up in order to get you convicted to these guy's bias. You you'd have Peter and Paul or whatever, being the primary witnesses. It's the women, it's a ring of truth. And then you've got people who were skeptical, who didn't believe in him at all.
People like the apostle Paul people, like his half brother James, they were skeptics. They were total skeptics. What turned them around? The resurrection of Jesus. You've got 500 witnesses, Paul says who were out there most are still alive. In our terms, Rodney, it's basically saying, look, here's the app. It's got the list of everybody.
You need to know who's around Jerusalem at the time. Uh, you know, check them out. They even throw in stuff like Joseph of Arimathea. They give you the name of the guy who was involved in the burial of Jesus. And they say he's from the Jewish council, the sanhedrin. It's giving you data. You don't do that if you're creating lies,.You can check it out. No, one's come back and say, Oh, Joseph didn't exist. No one came back and said he didn't bury him. I mean, it's just extraordinary. You just sit there and go, Oh my gosh, God wrote this for me.
Rodney Olsen: There's a reliance there on the Christian scriptures, but how do we know that they're for real?
How do we know that they haven't been reinvented over the years? Is there any evidence coming from outside that, that Christian scripture, that Bible that we know today?
Ross Clifford: Oh yeah. I can tell you the whole Jesus story without going to the Bible. I can tell you that he's locked death crucifixion and believed resurrection believed resurrection without going to the scriptures.
I mean, from the Jewish Talmud, from historians, like Josephus, uh, from, uh, stories like Tacitus, the Roman historian, you know, that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilot. That's, that's how they understood as historians. And it was believed, says, Josephus. By his disciples that he rose from the dead. So mate, you can get that all out there.
Look, Christian philosophers by the name of Moreland had Habermas and they dedate this at Oxford University and whatever, and you and I don't need to do this, but they say there's a number of agreed facts by even the skeptical historians that we could all put out, you know, we could all say, yeah, this happened, the agreed facts are simply things like Jesus existed.
Jesus died upon the cross. The disciples believed the disciples believe he rose again. The disciples gave their lives for that belief. And you've got the incredible transformation historically of people like James, his half brother, who was a skeptic, who became a leader of the church and the apostle Paul, who was the major antagonist against the church.
He believed Jesus died, but didn't believe in any of this resurrection stuff. He encountered the resurrected Christ and he became a believer. So they say you take those five facts together. You don't need to open your Bible to get those five facts from history. That enough is to say there's a case to answer here.
Rodney Olsen: And yet there are still people who are writing books, looking back at history and saying the facts don't stack up. So are they not looking at the evidence? Are we looking at different evidence? How do we account for that?
Ross Clifford: Oh, well, you're looking at times, uh, at people who have not looked at the evidence. I remember a debate that took place, uh, in Sydney with a mentor of mine called John Mark Montgomery.
Who's a well known lawyer historian. He's got three doctorates. He communicates well with the public and he was the biding, a guy called Plummer from Melbourne who was a lawyer, and it was over these particular matters and someone from the audience asked Montgomery how he could be so sure Jesus existed, died and rose from the grave and the gospels are reliable.
And Montgomery took him through the whole thing, 5,000 copies. That means that whether you're Christian or not. 5,000 copies from early dates, different places. You can check the gospels, check the reliability, and you can come as a scholar with a conviction that as you read, these gospels is as they were written.
There's no debate about that. With respect to what Paul writes in one Corinthians 15, then you've got to ask, okay, as I read it is, as it was written, but are these truthful witnesses, are they seeking to tell the truth and this basic tests look how they're honest. Look how they share everything. Look at how they believe this.
Look, how they died for it. You guys, for all of this. And then Plumber. Who's a lovely guy. a leading lawyer, uh, represent the Skeptics Association. Then someone said to him, well, Mr. Plummer, why don't you believe the gospels are reliable and they told the truth about Jesus and his answer, I kid you not Rodney, his answer was, well anything that Robert Schuller follows must be doubtful.
Rodney Olsen: And right there, we have a bias
Ross Clifford: Right there. He lost the debate.
Rodney Olsen: Does this come back to that thing I was mentioning earlier in that sometimes we're looking for what we want to find?
Ross Clifford: Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And look, I did say healthy skepticism. I'm not saying I can prove that Jesus died and rose again historically a hundred percent.
I mean, I can't tell you a hundred percent that Robert Menzies lived and died. I mean, history is always probable. We need to remember that history is always probable, but there's more evidence for Jesus' death and resurrection than there is for Julius Caeser. So, you know, come on. Um, so we know we need to remember that we do have bias.
Uh, not dismissing any of that. Uh, I remember Barbara Thieirng, who's a leading Australian skeptic and a really nice woman. I did some study with her, but Barbara said to me, Ross, you just believe this stuff because you have this great need to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. And I said, well, thanks Barbara for pointing that out.
And you obviously don't believe this stuff because you have a great need, not to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. And she said, Oh, Ross, come on. Absolute rubbish. This is not just emotion. I don't believe because the facts. Oh, well guess what Barbara? The same thing happens for me. Why do you assume I want the Jesus story to be true?
I was very happy being a lawyer, Barbara. I would really love to be in politics. I liked money. I had a happy life. I wasn't running around, saying I need a Jesus story, Barbara, and she got it. We were friends. I'm standing here, not because I don't think any of that other part is relevant. I'm standing here. because mate, I actually believe it happened.
Rodney Olsen: And going back to your court days, we hear about this idea of beyond a reasonable doubt. So is that how you convinced yourself? You thought the evidence stacks up and it stacks up beyond a reasonable doubt?
Ross Clifford: Yeah, basically. Uh, and of course, you know, that's kind of working, you know, at sort of a God factor.
And there are people here that are listening, who may not be Christians and that's fine. Take an honest, look at the evidence for the resurrection, you know, pray. The doubters prayer. Lord, help me, show me if I'm meant to be leaving here or not, but let's look at it. Make and take that sort of strong look at, and I'll be very confident, you'll come to a conclusion that there is a case to answer. But Rodney it gets deeper than that. In my life, when that's happening, you've got the work of the Holy spirit that then brings the conviction that what is mounting up here is more than probable. It is actually true. That's the work of God in your life, but it's not just the truth of the resurrection historical fact.
That's nice. That's out there. When you start thinking about it, you all of a sudden discover, that this resurrection thing is mind boggling, Rodney, absolutely mind boggling. Cause we all are looking for worldviews to follow. You have foundations for our life. And the resurrection says if Jesus has resurrected, as Paul says, you and I will be resurrected.
It says that God is concerned for you and I, as whole people will be changed and transform yes but our life in the future, Rodney, is as resurrected people before God. And if God's going to raise you and I up to be with him forever, that means he's concerned for you and I now. And that's why it's transformed me.
That's why there's Christian hospitals, that's why we're in the forefront of edge of education. That's why Christians have been the forefront of compassion. Resurrection says God's concerned for the whole of me. It's one of the most profound understandings of the world that you can have. And there's atheists out there now all over the place saying, Oh, we mustn't have the fact of the resurrection, but we want the theology, the worldview of the resurrection.
I've got news for you. You can't split the package. You can't take, Oh, I want a resurrection but without actually believing in one. Um, and the resurrection has this incredible foundation, Rodney, that, uh, it is true, but more than that, it is life changing. It changes the whole way you see the world. There's a common argument.
Rodney Olsen: I hear where people talk about this idea of a moral code or of having morals and they can be quite indignant to say, how dare you say that it is only through religion, only through a faith in a God that, I don't believe in, that I can have a moral stance. I have morals beyond that. What is your answer to that?
Ross Clifford: Look, I believe there's truth in most understandings of the world, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily true and I'm sure there's decent people have fair dinkum morals that might be based on Christianity and the like, but in the end, Rodney, what's the test? What's the ultimate test? What puts your moral code against somebody else's moral code?
What puts your understanding against another person's understanding? Both of you might be decent, but have very different moral codes. Well, what puts the difference here is if there's a person who died and rose again, and he says, that's the moral code. You have a test, you have a foundation, you have a certainty to the moral code that you are following is just not coming from the pack, it's just not coming from a bunch of good people creating something. As the philosopher. Rousseau said years ago, to have a moral code that you can actually base your life on must come from the gods. Guess what? There is one that does come from God. The resurrection affirms it. .
Rodney Olsen: I spoke earlier about the fact that you have authored or co-authored over a dozen books. Let's go back to that first one. You put together something by the title of Leading Lawyers look at the Resurrection. Tell me about that early book.
Ross Clifford: Yeah, look, it was actually written for Russia. That's interesting thing. Uh, I was over there with a mission group in Russia after the Gorbachev stuff was all unfolding.
And, uh, they said, look, Russians, like to think about things. Can we have a book? We haven't had one that actually points the case for the resurrection. And someone said, Oh, you've done a thesis on stuff like that. And I said, Oh, yeah I could make it very popular, and I did, but the way God works an Australian publisher, John Waterhouse, found out about it, uh, from Strand and then Albatross originally Albatross.
And he said, Ross, could you put that into English for us? You know, it was in English, but can we have an English edition and it was, and Rodney  it was my privilege really to launch that book in a real way at the Gorbachev Foundation, with the director of the Gorbachev Foundation, uh, who indicated she'd handed it out to a thousand judges and lawyers at a recent conference.
She said the reason why is we are a people of kind of faith, religious faith. We've lost it through communism. We're trying to come back to that. Your book has the faith component, but more than that, she said, you  know, the KGB told us how to decide cases. Whether we were the judge, the prosecutor, defence lawyer.
We'd all get a phone call the night before telling us you better, you know, do whatever. We're not used to arguing or presenting a case and not does only your book open us up to the question of faith again, but it shows us how to logically and legally and in a popular way, get our case together. And so that's, that's how it happened, but, uh, you got to remember it's life transforming a number of those lawyers actually brought me out of the darkness.
I read this stuff and I looked at the gospels again and I was born again. So, uh, this was very precious to me.
Rodney Olsen: So these lawyers have looked at the evidence they've said, yeah, it does stack up how many lawyers were there and are they all believers?
Ross Clifford: Yeah, they're all believers. Many of them weren't believers until they started doing, uh, you know, exploring as I've indicated.
Oh, there's just a pile of them, uh, including senior lawyers in Australia. Like, Sir Leslie Herron, I mean, The world's most famous lawyer, the world's. most successful lawyer was a guy called Sir Lionel Luckhoo, who was knighted twice by the queen, Rodney. Now I see that Perry Mason's making a comeback, can't wait, all of you who remember the old Perry Mason legal series.
Well, Perry Mason got to about 70 murder acquittals, which he won. Then they thought he had to lose one that so no one would believe it. Sir Lionel Luckhoo got 240 murder aquittals, 240 in a row. Um, and he was 63 he had everything, the world's best advocate, you know, knighted twice by the queen, and then he says I had absolutely nothing. And he took a look at Jesus. And Sir Lionel Luckhoo stood up after looking at the evidence and reading the gospels, et cetera, totally convinced that this Jesus had died, buried and rose again. And he committed the rest of his life to sharing the message of Jesus.
And it was my privilege. And he came out from the West Indies and launched this book with Clarrie Briese. And so Clarrie Briese was the Chief Magistrate of New South Wales, who's also in the book.
Rodney Olsen: There seems to be two sides of this. There is the evidence that as you say, does seem to stack up, it does seem to take us beyond a reasonable doubt, but at the same time, you're speaking about something different. You're speaking about something that goes beyond just reading a set of beliefs and saying, yep. It seems to stack up. I will follow that belief. Tell me more about that.
Ross Clifford: Yeah. Look, Rodney. Most Aussies approach things like this two ways.
Is it true? Does it work? And many of us start with, does it work? And if we think that it works, then we'll ask , is it true? Others of us ask, is it true? And then we'll say, well, so what.  Well, we've been talking about is it true? Yeah. Does it work? Does it change my life if we hinted at this? Yes. Because the resurrection of Jesus points to resurrection as a state of eternity, you know, transform change.
Let's not get literal, but the whole sense is, the whole of Rodney goes  to be with God forever. When you get that kind of context, Rodney, the resurrection brings you incredible message of hope. Hope. I mean, in one of my books, I talk about George Gittoes, who's the war photographer, you know, one of the world's best.
And he's in Rwanda at the, you know, at the end of all that incredible civil violence and, uh, ethnic cleansing and he's with a particular tribe with the United Nations and Australian medical team taking photos and whatever. They've been told to leave, because another tribe is coming in to clean out that tribe that they're with.
So they get in their cars and whatever you already to leave, can't do anything. And I've got the picture. He took a picture and this guy stands up in the crowd, that's just about to be massacred with machetes, a guy stands up, opens his New Testament and starts reading out the, the hope they have in the Lord, Jesus Christ and Gittoes, and I paraphrase basically said, now I know what religion, Christianity is all about. I mean with all our technology, with all our care, we had to leave and hopefully come back and be able to patch some people up. He stood up in the crowd and offered them, hope, offered them hope. I mean, how powerful is that?
I mean, we go through coronavirus. We go through all sorts of situations in our world, and we're reminded today that for many people around our globe, crisis is normal. This is their every day existence. You know, the Corona virus is just one more step in a crisis as normal. And we can say to them, we care for you, we love you. We're going to support you. We're going to support compassion. We're going to support you because simply we understand God cares for everyone, the whole person. Resurrection tells us that cares for all people. And as we care for you and minister to you and seek to share our assets and resources at the same time, we want to hear you, we want you to hear the message. That even in this God, in death, there's only resurrection. There's no other worldview that offers this. Mate, whatever trial, whatever situation. The resurrection of Jesus says God cares. God loves God's understanding. God's been there. He's been on a cross, whatever we faced legally or morally or spiritually or sense of abandonment, he's been through all of that. He's been through false trials. Uh, you know, he's been disowned by friends. Uh, he's physically suffered, been through all of that, and he's the one who's risen. And says, I'm there with you. I'm there with you, Rodney. I mean, it's just profound. It's just, it's just incredibly profound.
Rodney Olsen: You're talking about that sense of hope, even in very difficult circumstances. And you touched on that story there from Rwanda of someone standing up with hope for the future because of their faith in Jesus., and yet there's still a massacre. I've been to Rwanda. I've been through the Memorial and, and read the, the heart wrenching stories.
And many people would turn around and say, Well, if this God does care for us, if this God does care for the whole person, as you say, why does he not step in at moments like this and hold back the hand of the person who brings the massacre?
Ross Clifford: Every understanding of the world, whether you're Christian or Buddhist or atheist really struggles with this issue.
It's not just the Christian faith that struggles with it. And I heard a former Prime Minister of Australia, who's an atheist. His the answer to that was, and this guy, achieved so much, he became Prime Minister of Australia. He said, well, I'm just half a grain of sand on the beach. In other words, who cares?
Who gives a stuff? It doesn't matter. There's no, God, there's no purpose, and I'm just a half a grain of sand on the beach. And who cares about half a grain of sand on the beach? I mean, I can give a more philosophical answer about, you know, God created a world, which is, which is fair to create where we, as a people had a choice of loving him or not loving him.
And we decided to go our own way and there's consequences for all of that. And in those consequences, you know, sin and darkness fill-in, and I can do that mate with time and do that very reasonably, I believe better explanation than any other worldview. But for our purposes today, let me just remind people that in that darkness and that situation, why does God not?
Well, you know, they're very difficult questions, but I can say this in answer the God who goes the God who goes through this with us fully understands because he's been there every kind of predicament we could imagine, his son, Jesus went through all of that. So he clearly identifies with us as Hebrews four says, we can cry out to him in honesty, but more than that in the resurrection of Jesus, he says, well, whatever they throw at you in me, there's only resurrection, whatever life throws at you, there's only hope whatever happens is only the empowerment of the Holy Spirit upon you and in your life and grab hold of that truth.
Nothing gets close to it. I'm not a half a grain of sand on the beach. The story of the resurrection says I'm valuable. The most significant person in the universe loves me so much, he would die upon a cross for me. Mate when I know that nothing can touch me. Absolutely nothing.
Rodney Olsen: I find it interesting that there's not a complete or a, uh, an immediately satisfying answer for that question of why does God allow suffering?
There are many attempts that we've heard over the years to come to that. And yet you're saying that, the evidence still stacks up to say that this is for real. So does that mean we don't have to have absolutely everything straight in our mind before we can believe and put our trust in this hope?
Ross Clifford: I agree fully. Let me just repeat though. I can give a philosophical answer to the question and if you're interested in people like plan together. Done that. And most secular philosophers have agreed that, that, that it's, it's possible to be an all powerful, all loving God and still create a world where there's freedom and freedom of choice, because you believe that your created beings, your highest created beings, human beings.
If you really love them, you're going to give them the choice of whether they love you back. And in that world, there will be evil, and suffering because people choose to go their own way, and Plantinga's philosophically done that question to the satisfaction of the Academy, but I'm trying to work here with myself and everybody else out there, Rodney, and I'm simply saying, you know, we don't have answers to everything. It doesn't mean we shouldn't ask the questions, but when you get an answer that brings you an understanding of the world that is so powerful. So embracive. So empowering and based on a central fact in history, that is just overwhelming, then, you know, I'm moving on.
I'm moving on. Some things I'm just going to leave to eternity. You know, Rodney, a few years ago on that program, Q and A, they had a guy on Peter Hitchins. Peter Hitchins is the brother of Christopher Hitchens, who was one of the best known atheists of our time. Now Peter himself had been an atheist, but then he was converted to Christianity.
And this Q and A was during the festival of dangerous ideas, and Peter was the only Christian on the panel,  and some of you would not be surprised to hear that, and Tony Jones said, well, okay, let's finish. Let's talk about what we think is the world's most dangerous idea. And he turned to Peter and said, what's the world's most dangerous idea and I paraphrase, but basically said the world's most dangerous idea is that 2000 years, a guy called Jesus lived. died buried, and rose again, because if that's true, it changes and transforms everything. It's the  world's most, dangerous idea, mate. Nothing is the same. If this is true, nothing is the same again.
Rodney Olsen:  I find it interesting that that is so transformative, as you're saying. But what does it mean for the here and now for those people who say, yep, I believe in the resurrection, does it stay as a belief or does it dramatically alter the way we live our lives?
Ross Clifford: Oh it dramatically alters. Mate if this is true. You've got the risen, God walking with you. Um, if this is true, uh, you celebrate no matter what, that's, why Paul could celebrate in shipwreck and, in hardship, and even facing death because he knew the one who had defeated death was there with him and poured out his Spirit upon him.
If it's true, it means that we care for those who are disadvantaged and poor and vulnerable because there's human, dignity and human worth. The basic. Oh, you know, the basic human rights documents like the 1948 declaration of human rights. It's the foundation for the United Nations. That's based on the 10 Commandments. Numerous human rights documents are based on this premise of love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
It transforms you  mate,  you've got to care. You've got to be involved. You know, God loves and cares for you. You know, there's a moral code, like a sermon on the Mount that you can live by and put your life to. So it's discipleship changing, right? It's it's, it's the, world's most dangerous idea.
Rodney Olsen: I hear ofpeople who say, I've looked at the evidence. I don't believe it and I don't want to believe it and they'll just walk away. But there are other people I hear these voices who say, I can't believe that, but I really wish I could. What would you say to those people?
Ross Clifford: Look to the first, I support you've got to live by your own conscience, and if you really believe that's the case.
Then, you know, that's what, that's the step that you take, but there are eternal ramifications for that. Many people just turn their back on this thing because they don't want to be controlled by anybody else, but themselves. I mean, they don't want a God out there who tells them how to live life and tells them what the values are and not might actually tell them that they've got to go overseas and make a difference, you know?
Um, that's that first group, the second group I understand. And I'd simply say suck it and see. Taste it. Actually ask, what would the resurrection, what would it make a difference in my life? How would it transform my values? How would it transform how I see other people. And uh, if I can see that really making a difference to how I live my world, then step out and say, God, I'm really not so sure about this, but, you know, give me the strength, give me the conviction.
Uh, give me people that I can speak to that allow me to cement this. So take a step, take a step towards Jesus. And you'll find that after one step two steps, three steps, four steps, five steps. You'll wake up one morning and think, Oh my gosh. I'm in.
Rodney Olsen: It's interesting that there are those camps that you're talking about, but there are also those in the camp that say, I've seen what Christians are like.
They're a group of people that are against this against that, and they seem to be very hateful.
Ross Clifford: Oh, and I understand that. I mean, the McCrindle research shows that the number one objection, that people who are open to faith have to the Christian faith is Christians themselves. The basic problem that the community or they seeking a faith have is not God.
The number one problem they have is us and  I understand that. And that's a real call for us to get our lives together, but just remember Rodney, that we have charities, Tim Costello, you know, who was the CEO of World Vision a again, I quote, but I think he said something like 90% of charities and NGOs in Australia began from a Christian involvement and movement.
So we need to bear that in mind. Mother Teresa. I mean, you can just go global, all sorts of people. Catherine Hamlin who's just passed away in Ethiopia. Who must be the Australian of the last 10 years who spent 50 years there, uh, creating fistula hospitals, so women could give birth, have, uh, awkward results and not be outcasts in tribes, but actually come back and live with their kids and their husband in the major community.
She's committed her life to that, man. We can repeat that, time and time again. And just remember how we started this. Plummer said why don't I believe in the gospels, he said anyone who believes, anything Robert Schuller believes in, I can't believe. And that's no answer. You know, it's a concern that you find people that you don't think you're authentic, but you know, I'm offering you Jesus.
I'm not offering you me. I'm not offering you Rodney Olsen. I'm offering you Jesus. Look at him. Transform and change world's most dangerous. I didn't, no one is perfect, but my gosh, mate, it is it's mind boggling stuff.
Rodney Olsen: So if anyone has heard something today and they think. I need to investigate this further. Where would you send them?
Ross Clifford: Oh, well, you know,without being rude, Leading Lawyers Look at the Resurrection, is a book that I've written that people might find helpful. There's some books out there that guys like John Dickson have written. Some of you might've heard, uh, that, uh, that name, I mean, you find some of those helpful, um, it's really not hard to find a book like that, that gives you that kind of background and impetus, but also don't forget to just read your gospels.
Maybe you've never read one before. Read John's gospel look up in your index in a Bible and you get Bibles anywhere. Look up in your index, or you can even Google it. You can Google John's gospel for nothing. Uh, look for the NIV translation. Just read it through, ask God to go with you on the journey and then read one Corinthians 15, uh, chapter 15 of the book of one Corinthians written by Paul.
No doubt about that. Early read what he says about what happened and transformed and who saw that and just go to those texts with an open heart.
Rodney Olsen: There's plenty for people to think about and to investigate further. I love your passion for what you're doing. I love your passion for that resurrection message that you carry. Ross. I want to say thank you for spending some time with us today.
Ross Clifford: Good to be with you, mate. God bless you, Rodney. God bless everyone.
Emily Olsen: Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

Liz Vice is a reluctant gospel singer who yearns to see gospel justice fall across the earth. Her current single See the Day is a longing for that kind of justice.
Her first album, There's a Light was released back in 2012 and climbed to number six on Billboard's, Top Gospel albums, and 13 on the R&B chart. It's an incredible honour to welcome Liz Vice to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Website: https://www.lizvice.com/home
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LizViceMusic
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lizvice/
 
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
Rodney Olsen
Liz Vice is a reluctant gospel singer who yearns to see gospel justice fall across the earth. Her current single See the Day is a longing for that kind of justice.
Rodney Olsen (00:00):
Some years ago, I discovered an album that quickly became a favourite of mine. I then started raving about my discovery to friends who began buying their own copies. That album was, There's a Light released back in 2012 by today's guest, Liz Vice. The album was rereleased in 2015 it climbed to number six on Billboard’s, Top Gospel albums and 13 on the R&B chart. There's been another album since then. The amazing Save Me and a few single releases. All of them displaying Liz's soulful vocals, bringing to life some incredible gospel lyrics. Liz, it's an incredible honour to welcome you to Bleeding Daylight. Thanks for your time.
Liz Vice (00:39):
Oh, thanks for your interest.
Rodney Olsen (00:41):
You're one of five children. That's a reasonable sized family. Was it a musical childhood for you?
Liz Vice (00:47):
Not really. I feel like the, the story goes for middle children. I pretty much kept to myself. I would sing for hours in the basement or my bedroom, but I mean my mom would sing throughout the house, but that slowly disappeared as working multiple jobs to raise five kids might cause one to stop singing at some point. But in my lineage there is a lot of musical influences. My grandfather played the guitar and sang, my grandmother played the piano and sang. Well my mom is from LA and she was moving towards a career in being a jazz musician, but my grandmother was very old fashioned. According to my mom, she was offered a record deal and my grandmother didn't really support it because she wanted my mom to be a wife and raise a family and so my mom kind of let go of that dream to honour her mother. And then my dad, who I didn't really grow up with was in a famous seventies and eighties band and even though he wasn't a part of my life, the music just passed through somehow. Osmosis is what I would like to say. Through the genes.
Rodney Olsen (02:15):
So, there was that influence all along but at that stage it wasn't something that you really took up apart from just singing around the home.
Liz Vice (02:23):
Oh no, I was, I was a shy kid and I don't really remember that, but I've had people who knew me when I was in kindergarten or middle school that have sent, sent me messages saying I never imagined the shy little girl would grow up to be singing on stage. Music was never ever a part of my plan. I always wanted to be an actress, be in movies, be a movie star. Mainly because I didn't see any characters that looked like me on screen and so I wanted to be that for other little Brown girls. But that's like leads into a whole other story of health issues that kind of put a halt to being able to go to college for theatre.
Rodney Olsen (03:09):
You were moving towards that kind of a life, but as you say, your plans had to take a back seat when you hit your late teens. Tell me about the health issues that you faced.
Liz Vice (03:18):
Yeah. So when I was 15 I was diagnosed with an auto immune disease and by the age of 19 I was on dialysis for kidney failure and for three and a half years, ups and downs, mostly downs with my health including congestive heart failure and becoming so ill from the process of dialysis that I was removed from the transplant list because my heart, I would have had to have a heart transplant as well. And so by the time I was 20 I kind of gave up on any dreams of ever going to school for theatre or being an actress or anything in that realm, let alone thinking I'd actually live to graduate from a four year university and my last year on dialysis, I don't know what happened. I started taking this medication for my heart, which is not the story of a lot of people that I met at the clinics.
Liz Vice (04:15):
When I would go for my dialysis sessions, a lot of people would pass away from the process or from the fear and that stopped coming because it was so exhausting on the body. And I got my kidney transplant and in that process I had gone, I had stayed in college the whole time so I have like an associate of arts associate of science, a certification in medical assisting and I graduated with my certification and being a medical assistant because I was like, I think I could do a year long program, even if I don't like live long enough to work in this degree and this certification, I could at least be a voice to people who are in the hospital who are losing hope. I don't, it's, like it feels like another life that I had. There are moments in my life today where I wish I was as strong as I was when I was actually on my death bed.
Liz Vice (05:18):
And so after I got my transplant, I went back to school a month later, which my doctors were not happy about and I graduated with this certification and being a medical assistant and just after working in the hospital with cancer patients, it just felt too close to home being on the other side of the bed of people who literally were in my same situation four weeks prior, and I did that for a little while before I decided to take the leap to them go to film school because if I couldn't be in the movies, at least I could make the movies right. So that's what I decided to do.
Rodney Olsen (05:59):
That sort of medical condition that you went through, I guess would bring all sorts of things in in life into sharp focus when you're facing your own mortality
Liz Vice (06:09):
Especially at such a young age. I definitely feel like that keeps me living a quote unquote risky life, which feels counter intuitive to the American dream of working a nine to five and having a 401 K and getting married with two and a half children with a white picket fence. It just never seemed like a plan for me, especially not knowing how long I had in this life. So yeah, I went to film school and I worked on set and I would teach myself how to use software programs to create DVDs for short films. I shot and learn how to edit and sound design, all these tech things. I really love the technical parts of film. And now that I do music I love, because of this pandemic, I've been recording a lot at home, but before we get into that going to film school and then graduating and being selected to give the commencement speech and getting invited to work on a TV show for three weeks, that was a paid internship.
Liz Vice (07:20):
And then that leading to another job and that leading to another job and then having a pause. Which led to me singing on a church record that I never, I just, you know, I never ever wanted to be a singer, but for some reason this church that I had started going to, I just felt like this little tug to just sing harmonies in the background. That's it. I'm good. I'm going to work in film to pay off my debt, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in debt for going to film school. And then I would, you know, live my happily filmmaking, life struggle bus of being an artist
Rodney Olsen (08:09):
So that first entrance into music is really wanting to perhaps just sing harmonies, be in the background. And I guess that still shines through in your music, in that you're constantly collaborating with others. You're wanting others around you. You're not the typical frontwoman who just wants to say, I'm the singer. You're constantly bringing others into your music.
Liz Vice (08:33):
Yeah. I mean even to this day I work better with a second head and a second heart just because I can get so stuck on the little things and overcomplicate words for myself or ideas or a certain sound and not to mention feeling the pressure of having a certain image in the music industry that I, it just never felt like it was my identity, especially feeling like I was called, which is like a whole other thing that I wrestled with. So I started going to church at 14 years old and for six, seven, 10 years or so. It was a small church. We would sing out of hymn books sometimes we had a pianist, sometimes the pianist wasn't the greatest player, but we would all sing with our voices and you learn how to hear harmonies and you learn how to sing certain parts.
Liz Vice (09:31):
Never knew how to read music, but would take music classes to get that extra credit in university and then started going to another church because the church I was a part of was an older generation and I just wanted to make sure there are young people who wanted to pursue a relationship with Jesus that were my age, who also worked in the arts. I just needed to see that for myself and this particular community saying songs that felt real and human and that transcended any kind of faith practices with the in like the foundation of Jesus as the one who was the example of love for people. And I just would sing harmonies from the pier and I just, the tug got stronger and stronger and then I was like, okay, I've gone out to sing background vocals, which I never, I remember going to audition to sing on the worship team and I thought I was going to die.
Liz Vice (10:34):
And Josh White said, okay, like what's one of your favourite songs? I had practiced all these songs that I had learned from the hymn book and, and he asked if I wanted to sing one of his songs that he would sing during a Sunday service. And I said yes. And it went from singing background vocals to on Thursday night prayer to singing a verse or two or leading a song on a Sunday evening. And I just did that for myself, for the Lord. It was never anything that I thought I would end up doing for the past almost 10 years now.
Rodney Olsen (11:14):
So when was it that those people around you started to say, Liz, there's, there's something more than a background vocalist in you? When did they start to call that out?
Liz Vice (11:22):
Oh man, I remember that day. Like it was yesterday. My friend Joe, he was one of the worship leaders and he really wanted women to kinda be seen in the forefront as a church and leading songs. And so he asked if I would sing this song called Enfold Me. I did not want to do it. Like I thought I was going to have a heart attack, but for some reason my head shook. Yes, in agreement. Even though on the inside I was trembling and saying, what am I doing? What am I doing? And I remember the moment I finally saying, I felt like the room emptied. I felt like one, my pupils were getting smaller and smaller, so it was getting darker. Like I was about to faint and I just kept envisioning myself fainting off of stage into the front row and all of a sudden the room was empty and I just felt like I was singing for one.
Liz Vice (12:20):
Okay Liz, if you don't want to sing for the people, sing for one, sing for the Lord. And when the song was over, I was like covered in sweat. Like I felt like every pore on my body had opened up and after the church service had ended and the worship team is like leaving the stage as people are being released and putting chairs back. My friend Nancy walks on stage in tears and she's like, what was that? And I almost started crying but I didn't because I hate crying in front of people and I said I don't know. And every time I would lead a song at church it felt like the whole room stood still. And I know this because one of the pastors told me this, he was like when you started singing, no one got up. Like the whole room stood still.
Liz Vice (13:16):
And then my friends started saying maybe you should consider doing music. And then strangers started saying, I think there is a call over your life that but you have a wall up and I don't know what it's going to take for that wall to come down. And I had to start telling my friends, please stop telling me that music is my calling because I don't want to do that. And anytime a sermon would be taught at church about calling, I was hoping that it would be a form of release that I don't have to do music, that it could just be something I did on Sunday and that was fine and I could go and struggle and film cause I was still doing that, which is feast or famine until after working on a TV show, the pastor of the church asked if I wanted to sing on a church record and he asked me to sing the song that I sang at church.
Liz Vice (14:12):
That kind of started a whole movement of music and people loved that song. They loved that track. And Josh, the pastor would announce it from the pulpit that he was going to make a record for me. We're going to make a record for Liz, Vice Liz Vice Liz Vice. We're going to make a record for Liz Vice and my name is so easy to remember that. Well I just hated it when people would say Liz Vice Liz Vice Liz Vice. I just wanted to crawl up into a hole and hide. Yeah. And two years later I recorded my first record. There's a Light,
Rodney Olsen (14:49):
And this seems so opposite to to most of what we see in culture where people are grasping for fame. And we've seen lots of talent shows on television where people who obviously don't have a gifting will get up because they're so convinced and they're so grasping for it. But you are very hesitant to to put yourself in that spotlight. And I guess that again gives us a key to why you continue to collaborate so well with others. This is not something where you're wanting to put yourself in the spotlight.
Liz Vice (15:20):
I mean, and honestly it's even interviews like this or I would have pastors like one pastor in particular kind of like pulled me to the side and was just curious as to why all these doors were opening up for me with music if I was so hesitant about it and asked if I fear that my hesitation would come off as false humility. And so that was just another added insecurity that I could never be honest about my stage fright and my doubts as being an artist. And my doubts is doing anything that I felt called to and the life of an artist is not a secure life. It's a very risky life. Yeah. I mean, you do see all these talent shows. I know so many musicians where they love being on stage. They feel like they were made to be on stage and I've never had that confidence.
Liz Vice (16:18):
Oh yeah, that's me. That's how I feel. And so I can be pretty quiet about my music career. There are some people who have no idea what I do until someone else mentions that I'm a musician because I just don't really talk about it because I still struggle with this, this, this thing that is natural that I keep getting invited into multiple spaces. Not an, and that's the other thing is like not only am I singing you songs in church, but I'm singing these songs in spaces where people would never enter into the church. I once had a guy interview me and say, your music feels very familiar and nostalgic. Like, I know it, but I don't like that it mentions Jesus. Or I've had an article from Portland, Oregon, which is a very quote unquote non church city and particular very liberal newspaper said that if, if you can make it singing about Jesus in Portland, Oregon, you can make it anywhere.
Liz Vice (17:27):
And so I'm like getting invited into these spaces that have a strip club upstairs, but I'm singing about Jesus or getting invited to these festivals or getting invited to sing with these bands that are not associated with any faith practice. And I just say yes and I like, I am meeting people that Jesus loves too, regardless of what the conventional church would teach from the pulpit. I do believe that I get to experience Jesus in so many different kinds of people. And I pray that my idea of salvation is way smaller in comparison to Jesus's plan of love and redemption. And that's why I say yes to collaborating with a lot of people's because I feel like I need other voices to create a whole picture. Otherwise it's just one sided and I only have one piece of the puzzle and someone else has another piece. And then we work together and it makes something beautiful that I don't think I could have done on my own. And if I did try to do it on my own, I would drive myself insane and it would take years, years to accomplish anything.
Rodney Olsen (18:49):
And initially a lot of the music you were playing wasn't your own music, so to speak. It wasn't music that you were writing and yet you very much made them your own
Liz Vice (18:59):
Yeah. There's one song that I saying, yeah, Enfold Me. I mean, that's like the catalyst song to where I am today. I honestly don't even remember what it sounds like from the original artists because I've just sang it my way for so long and, and even moving into my second record Save Me, those songs arose from being on tour and self doubt and talking about health issues and, and rising up from dark nights of my soul and meeting other people and, and standing up for people that may not even believe the same things that I believe, but I believe that they are created beings and they have just as right to be loved as I do by Jesus. And so it's, yeah, believe me, I'm just as surprised by my career as most people. And when I say it, it just comes off as maybe false humility, but that's why I don't say it very often. I'm still in the process of this unfolding story and just to character,
Rodney Olsen (20:19):
How does it feel for you knowing that your music is heard right across the world? You've had tracks that have been streamed at over a million times. That must seem quite surreal for you.
Liz Vice (20:31):
Oh, it's so surreal. But if my music has a reflection of who I am, then the fact that it's reaching all over the world is exactly what I want to do as a human being. I love traveling. I love stepping into other cultures to learn new ways of seeing people, food. Storytelling, music. I love it. I love traveling so much and yeah, it's an honour that my music has travelled this much and I don't, not that I don't work hard for it, but I don't try to force something if it doesn't naturally on fold or if it's not naturally accepted. Like I'm not gonna I can't make anyone love my music. And so it surprises me every day when I get a message from someone saying that they just discovered a song that came out eight years ago or just discovered a new single, I don't know how it happens. I literally released the music and then I have to continue to live my life. So it's really cool that my song is all the way in Australia, blows me away. It's really cool. I hope to make it there in the flesh one day.
Rodney Olsen (21:50):
That would be wonderful. You're saying that your music seems to be accessible by people who would not normally walk into a church and there's a combination in your music that I find quite rare. So for instance, even going back to that first album, a song like Empty Me Out where I've played that to so many people and immediately they're drawn in by the music even right from the intro. Then they hear your vocal, they're swept away with that. But there's a deepness to those lyrics that we don't even hear in church these days.
Liz Vice (22:23):
Yeah. Well believe me, I have my opinions about that.
Liz Vice (22:29):
I'm like, y'all, we cannot be cowards. I feel like a lot of like the church body plays it safe in a lot of ways and I don't really think that we're meant to play it safe. Although I physically would like to live a life of stability and safety, there is something that's deeply ingrained in also my loyalty to a promise that I made when I was 15 that if the Spirit leads me somewhere, I say yes, even if I'm kicking and screaming. And I think that this music transcends because it connects to humans. Everyone has a story. Everyone has struggled and had to overcome something. Everyone has doubts, everyone has joys and I, and I hope that my music continues to connect with all people in that way. But the root of it is my relationship with Jesus. Even in my own doubts, in my own wrestling and my own frustrations, that mustard seed of faith is mighty strong inside of me.
Liz Vice (23:43):
And I mean, even with the pandemic I, I was, I have been so burnt out from doing music. I was literally going to go to Switzerland to go to on a spiritual retreat to be in the mountains and also tick off a country on my bucket list that I wrote when I was on dialysis and then walk away from music because I was tired, burnt out, brain fried. The politics of music is exhausting and ready to be done. I made my two records, pat on my back. Let's move on to something else. And even with a pause, I've been doing music nonstop, but it's different. There's no pressure to sell tickets. There's no pressure to convince people to listen to my music or to like me. And yeah, I'm just in awe. You would think that I would see this as an obvious, duh, this is what you're supposed to do. But it is a wrestling inside of me that I don't know if I'll ever overcome, but I will always choose to go where I know I'm supposed to go and I might be on stage and that might be in a nice chair and an office. I have no idea.
Rodney Olsen (25:03):
Your music, as you say, touches on things that we sometimes don't hear about in church. And that brings me to a great song that you released about Christmas and a very different take on, on a refugee king. Tell us about that song.
Liz Vice (25:19):
Oh man. So like I said, sometimes I get invited into these spaces with songwriters and I'm sitting there feeling like a chump. Like what do they not know that I don't know what I'm doing? Yeah. And we were challenged to rewrite Christmas songs that were more culturally accurate because the birth of Jesus is pretty tragic. A lot of children were killed due to this prophecy that Herod was told that there was going to be a new King in town. And so just to tell the story of Jesus literally with no agenda, it's just like cultural context. His parents had to leave their country to keep this baby safe. The strange thing about this story is that they left their home country to go into a place that their ancestors were once enslaved and this was a place of danger and torment and oppression. And that was where they found safety.
Liz Vice (26:29):
Right? And so you think about people coming to America to find safety and refuge and fulfill this so-called American dream that they've heard through the grapevine and their land. And they come here knowing that they will receive oppression because it's just a given. Your skin colour is your portion in America. And it, it might, it's going to be your curse here. That's just the foundation of America. But I didn't want to release that song with an agenda of, see this is just like immigration. No, it is just the story of Jesus. No place for his parents, no country or tribe. And they ran and they ran and they ran. And I wanted people to interpret the song for themselves. And I definitely have my interpretation of the song, but just laying out the facts as is, people will assume whatever they want about the story and some people will choose to be blind because Jesus in a lot of places is this blonde haired, blue eyed sheep totin' all American hero who's gonna redeem and oppress the bad guys and lift up the good guys. But you have to follow these rules where Jesus really is this country boy, this Jewish country boy from the sticks who had been called a bastard child because they knew Joseph wasn't his real dad. I wonder if he didn't look like a Joseph. He looked more like Mary and they were poor, but he was smart as hell. And they're like, how does this 12 year old know the scripture so well? But no one wants to worship that Jesus. I don't even want to worship that Jesus, but that's the Jesus that I deeply, deeply connect to. Growing up low income, single parent home, one of five kids with the mom that worked multiple jobs. And as a child I made a promise to myself that I would surpass the stereotypes. I am not. And I, I never wanted to be a statistic. And I think because Jesus didn't play by the rule book, that's why he was killed by the very people who should have been respecting and honouring him. So yeah, Merry Christmas.
Rodney Olsen (29:12):
And it's interesting the narrative you're talking about there of this, this, this white blue eyed Jesus who is coming to, to overthrow and take political power is exactly what was expected back in the day. And yet we haven't learned that lesson.
Liz Vice (29:28):
No. Oh my goodness. That is like a whole other podcast that I honestly don't even feel like I'm smart enough to engage in other than speak from my own experience like I, why didn't Jesus overthrow the political powers that be? Why did he allow them to kill him and allow his people to be oppressed? What was it about Jesus where these men were willing to be tortured to death because they loved him? I think about the moment Jesus died on the cross. I would have been heartbroken and absolutely just what was all of this for, to see my very hope dead on the cross, and honestly as I, I've gotten older, I'm like, you know what? I don't blame Thomas. I want to see these scars too because I watched my hope die on a cross and I need to touch these scars because there's, I've never heard of resurrection.
Liz Vice (30:28):
I don't know what redemption of a body means or looks like, even though they saw people come back to life and people healed. So I don't know. And I've seen beautiful things too. I have definitely been blessed in my life. I know I'm in a pandemic, but I have enough savings to survive for as long as I need to, and yet I'm still like, eh. You know what? It really would be nice to just like see some kind of glimmer of hope that Jesus is here involved in this political nightmare and involved in the injustices of my black brothers and sisters involved in people oppressing me when they see me in a grocery store and following me to make sure I don't steal anything. Like what is my role as one who says she follows the Lord but also constantly reminded that I am other and there will never be justice for people that look like me or Brown people in general.
Liz Vice (31:27):
And yeah, it is. It is definitely a, I'm in that place right now wondering like the great prayer of Psalm 13. Oh, how long Lord will you hide your face? Yeah, it is interesting. A cross to bear and, but it's so deep in me like I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Jesus just because I've also seen too much doing music and just in life. Hell, I'm a miracle right now that I'm alive. And I had a pastor remind me that if we were to truly live like Jesus, in essence we would be crucified. So I don't think it's a lot to ask for justice and love, but it is. It is. Not only am I a black person, I'm also a woman. So it's like, Whoa, double portion, Lord, double portion.
Rodney Olsen (32:30):
So even though you, you've almost come to music kicking and screaming and you've done it against this sort of background of this cry of the heart for in mass through you in some way to know that your music is actually bringing people closer to Jesus and not the cardboard cut out Jesus that we see presented so often, but the, the real Jesus who he really is.
Liz Vice (32:53):
Yes, it's easy for other people to see that. But I promise you, I've been so burnt out from this quote unquote call to sing these songs that create a space for all people to come together. Like I remember the first show I ever played, a woman came up to me and said, you almost made me believe in Jesus. Or I've seen grown men cry at a bar saying, I haven't been to church in so long. Or I've had people ask me if my politics and my religious beliefs clash against one another because they didn't understand how I could be so kind to them. And I'm just like, Lord, what have we done? And I don't have any answers other than my own experience. And I don't always feel like I'm actually playing a role in advancing the kingdom. So it's people like you and people who send me messages every single day on social media that kind of give me an idea that maybe I'm a part of something that exemplifies Jesus, but I don't always feel it. Especially now being isolated in an apartment. It's like, what is my role now? Like how do I, is music enough? Are the songs enough, me reposting things about injustices? Is that enough? Is my story enough? I don't know.
Rodney Olsen (34:43):
Liz, it's, it's absolutely a delight to, to chat to you. Thank you so much for, for taking so much time to sharing your heart and that's really what you've done. Thank you so much for the music that you have produced so far and we look forward to, to hearing a whole lot more from you. I know it's a struggle, but I'm hoping that you continue with that struggle because it does a lot of good for people who are yearning to hear the realness of Jesus. So thank you for your time today.
Liz Vice (35:13):
Yeah, thanks Rodney. Thanks for your desire to hear what I have to say. Yeah, I think that's the only way that I'll keep moving forward is people being willing to hear.
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net

How does a young boy with a promising future become a thief and a junkie and how does he turn his life around? That's today's episode of Bleeding Daylight.
Jacob Hill was a straight A student with a dream of winning Olympic gold, but his life took a number of unexpected turns, including crime, drug addiction and coming very close to death. Some would say it's a miracle that Jacob is alive today. How did such a talented young man fall so far and how did he turn his life turn around? Today he's a husband, father, author and pastor. Jacob is my guest for this episode of Bleeding Daylight. 
 
 
Jacobs's Book - Kids at War: The Battle of Addiction
Jacob's Website - http://JacobHill.org 
Jacob on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jacobhillofficialpage
 
TRANSCRIPT
Emily Olsen
Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen  0:19 
How does a young boy with a promising future become a thief and a junkie and how does he turn his life around? That's today's episode of Bleeding Daylight.
 
Jacob Hill was a straight A student with a dream of winning Olympic gold, but his life took a number of unexpected turns, including crime, drug addiction and coming very close to death. Some would say it's a miracle that Jacob is alive today. How did such a talented young man fall so far and how did he turn his life turn around? Today he's a husband, father, author and pastor. Jacob is my guest for this episode of Bleeding Daylight.  Welcome.
 
Jacob Hill  1:07 
Thanks so much for having me, Rodney.
 
Rodney Olsen  1:08 
I want to get to know the eager young boy who had such an amazing life stretched out ahead of him. Tell me about those early years.
 
Jacob Hill  1:16 
 Oh gosh. Probably my biggest memory of the sort of the overarching sort of feeling like I carry from my childhood is like you said eager. Like I was just I loved life and life was was good. My parents were amazing and I was taught that I could do anything and the results I was producing was showing it and I just had such a confidence that whatever I put my hand to was gonna succeed at, and so yeah, I just had this is so excited for life and so excited for the future.
 
Rodney Olsen  1:52 
So you studies were going well, and you're also excelling at sport.
 
Jacob Hill  1:56 
So it didn't start out good in school like I look back, it's probably like ADD or dyslexia or something. I remember like every single recess I'd be kept into the finish work off and homework was nightmare but then at some point it sort of clicked and I ended up finishing primary school with straight As pretty much and then High School on a sports scholarship. I was like champion of athletics right through school, I was captain and more school hockey team and the factions and all of that, and the icing on the cake was we went away to high school and hockey scholarship, and we're training at the Commonwealth hockey stadium the big stadium here in Perth four times a week, twice with school, twice with my club playing there on the weekends and sometimes during the week, we'd actually have the Australian hockey team on the other end of the pitch and that was crazy. Like literally seeing my dream like my dream was to play hockey for Australia and literally get to shake hands with like my dream. it was in my mind, it was very, very done.
 
Rodney Olsen  2:53 
So when it came to hockey, what was your biggest dream?
 
Jacob Hill  2:56 
A gold medal. That was that was it. The Australia Kookaburras at that point had won a silver medal. One of the guys played for my club and putting his silver medal on one time, wearing around my neck thinking, wow, this is so good, but I'm gonna go one better. That literally was everything.
 
Rodney Olsen  3:11 
And there was really no doubt in your mind at that stage that that was going to happen.
 
Jacob Hill  3:16 
Not not a fraction of doubt.
 
Rodney Olsen  3:17 
So how could all of that come crashing down? You're in high school, your grades are good, you're rising through the ranks at a rather elite level of playing hockey, how did all that begin to unwind?
 
Jacob Hill  3:30 
So all about the same time, my parents separated, and I developed a disease in my knees. So within a couple of months, the rug was pulled out from under me and I just did not know where I was, who I was, where I belonged. Everything I dreamed about was just gone, and I didn't have a backup plan. My identity was really busted up from my dad leaving because I just sort of thought if he really loved us, he wouldn't have left us and then I sort of you know, just a little kid, 13, really just got the message I wasn't worth loving and then all of the other stuff I'd gotten validation for from my whole life that was gone as well. Because I was never like a real social kid I was always I had plenty of friends and stuff but that was mostly I think because of sport because I was a little bit socially awkward and as much as I tried to put on a confident front I was pretty shy and I totally lost man like just totally lost.
 
Rodney Olsen  4:26 
So in the middle of this your family starting to fall apart and you've lost your dream of representing your country and winning Olympic gold. That also means that hockey team mates that had become your closest friends are all gone as well. Everything's falling away beneath you.
 
Jacob Hill  4:41 
My mates were all guys I trained with and played with. All of a sudden, I couldn't play and I could barely walk for a while, like I could like remember just the pain trying to get upstairs and stuff because I had this growing disease in my knees. Really I felt very, very alone and found myself trying to work out where did I fit in who you know. Like with my dad, sort of, I was always felt like someone's looking at for me, someone sort of keeping me in line a bit someone's believing in me and then with my mates always, you know, felt that camaraderie that real team spirit sort of thing. You get the validation that you get playing sport team sport. And I just like lost both sides of I guess the people that gave me a lot of my identity and and I just really started to look for that I was like. And I wouldn't have been able to tell you that as a 13 year old kid like, but looking back retrospectively that's what I can really see that's what I was doing. That's why I actually settled hanging out with people who were really living a risky lifestyle that I did not agree with. I just wanted to belong like my brother was hanging out with these guys that started smoking pot. They were doing graffiti and petty crime like break and enters and stuff like that. Man, I just wanted to belong I  think .Yeah and I was pretty prepared to do anything to fit in.
 
Rodney Olsen  6:03 
Tell us about your family. Did you know that things weren't great between your parents? Was there any inkling that the marriage was breaking down? And you've mentioned your older brother? Were they just the two siblings?
 
Jacob Hill  6:14 
No at that time, there was my parents, my older brother, who's just a year older than me, and a younger brother who's three years younger. So all around that time, I'm just starting school, high school, sorry. So I'm sort of the end of first year second year. And my brother's in the same school. He was in the same hokey program. My parents had been, I knew that they were separating. So all around that time, we were sort of we were blindsided one time with the conversation, but that was first before the knees. But before that, like my dad was amazing. He'd take us camping all the time, fishing every weekend, he was was at every single game of mine, take me to practice, you know, take us skateboarding and surfing and make sure we do our homework and it just, you know, it could could barely fault the guy on that side of things. And so and I really felt blocked, betrayed by him going, the only reason he could have possibly left, the only rationale I could dig up in my sort of 13 year old mind is that he really didn't care about us. It really rocked the foundation of what I believed about everything in life, who I was, who we were as a family, my Christian faith, because I was brought up in church. It really just scuttled me,
 
Rodney Olsen  7:32 
You mentioned that your older brother had already started mixing with the wrong crowd, and it was around that time that you started dabbling in drugs yourself. Your brother's only a year older than you so you're still both very young. How did the connections into that kind of world begin?
 
Jacob Hill  7:48 
So I atually don't really know how he started to get involved. Whether that was around the time my parents separated, looking back, actually, I'd say that's what's happened. And so he started hanging out with these guys. So he would have been 13, 14 at that point, and then I've sort of joined in with them when I was 13. So he would have been 14 by then. Put a lot of it down to definitely down to the people were hanging out with their peer group but also, had a lot to do with the music we were listening to. We listened to a lot of hip hop. Drugs were glorified. So much of it was talking about how drugs are cool, how they're a way of making money, a way of basically dominating your circumstances. And it also spoke a lot about violence and how violence is you know, the way you get respect and the way you hold respect. You know, we just really identified with that music and with that subculture, trying to emulate these guys. I'd never bothered that I wasn't smoking weed like I never wanted to do it. I didn't have any attract there's just nothing there for me. But I was listening to a song that the there's a line in the song said when you smoke, talking about marijuana, when you smoke like I smoke then you're high like every day and I remember just listening to that song one time, and then just like the penny dropped and I was just like, I'm not one of the guys. Like I'm not like these people and I felt like a real try hard. I just thought you know what today, I'm going to try marijuana because at the bus stop every afternoon the boys would sit in a circle and pass the bong around and I thought today when it gets passed to me, I'm not just going to pass it by I'm actually going to try it. And that afternoon I did that I tried it an interesting side note to is the guy whose pot it was that day, he was a guy I grew up with, and his family is actually the family that got us into playing hockey. He was a really good friend and a really like a huge influence on me growing up, and he actually died of a heroin overdose at the age of 20. So so this is the guy who's you know, it's his pot. I've tried it for the very first time, and this is something where I think young people need to be told about drugs. People don't just go and throw their life away like for no reason. Typically, these drugs have a really solid, immediate payoff, like in the terms of actually getting high like you feel really good. And that first time I got stoned man, it was like all my problems were gone. The pain of my dad leaving just gone. The disappointment of losing my Olympic dream was just gone. I really felt like I fitted in with the guys. And I actually had the thought that very first time I remember like so clearly it was looking back it's almost like it was a thought placed into my head from the outside but it was so clear in my mind, it was like, if I can just keep feeling like this. Everything will be okay. And I was literally addicted to marijuana the very first time I tried it, which some people say that marijuana is not addictive. I tell you I've no idea what they're talking about. But then I had another thought at that same sort of that same day was if this is how good pot is, I wonder how good all the other drugs are. And basically, I went on a quest to, you know, try all these other drugs.
 
Rodney Olsen  11:07 
How do 13, 14, 15 year old boys get their hands on the the sort of money that it takes to buy these drugs?
 
Jacob Hill  11:15 
When I was 13, I started selling for the boys that were older than me to the kids in my year, and I'd sell a certain amount of pot and I'd get a certain amount for free. And when that wasn't working for different reasons, like supply issues, you'd go and do break and enters and, you know, steal from different things and different people and shops and all of that.
 
Rodney Olsen  11:36 
It was really the start of a, I guess, a life of crime at that point.
 
Jacob Hill  11:40 
Yeah, it was it was totally and, you know, when you look at prisons, they're full of the're full, a majority of the people that are in there because of drugs. You wouldn't say it's easy money, but you don't have to be disciplined to make enough money to get by. So whereas if you've got a job, you've got to wake up at a certain time do what the boss says that you know in all of this, when you just do it that life you wake up when you want to go out and do it. For someone who's already emotionally crippled to the point where they're, you know, self medicating which and that's all that drug addiction is is you've got people that are in such bad shape they're self medicating to escape from this situation emotionally.
 
Rodney Olsen  12:20 
You've mentioned that you were on a quest to try a variety of drugs. The Verve had a song some years ago titled The Drugs Don't Work. Did that ever become your experience?
 
Jacob Hill  12:31 
Yeah, they stopped soon enough. You get a tolerance built up. The problem with it is is that well, there's a lot multiple problems but the first sort of problem is is when the drug stopped working and and by that I mean they they effectively they stop covering the pain is really I think, the simplest way of putting it. That is you can imagine you're in even medicine will tell you this, you you're taking painkillers for pain and you take them a long  time enough and your tolerance keeps building up, you need to take more and more of them to deal with that pain. If you keep doing it long enough that will stop dealing with the pain and that's what happened to me like the marijuana stopped making me feel good and the alcohol stopped making me feel good and the pills I was popping and acid and everything was it wasn't making me feel good anymore. But at the same time, I couldn't not use them because not using them made me feel even worse. So it was almost like now you've got no payoff for using drugs, except that you don't get the really horrible withdrawals or the really horrible problem of being straight. And basically what happened from there was, I think I was 16 and I made a decision. I was like, I felt so stuck. I was like, I need to get high. All of these drugs aren't doing it. I'm going to try heroin. And I knew what that meant. I knew that heroin was super addictive, I knew that it's super expensive, super dangerous. 'Cause I was a smart enough little kid as well, like, actually weighed it up and thought, you know, the pros and the cons. And I knew that there was no upside to this. But I still did not feel like I had another choice because I didn't realize that I could stop using drugs. That That wasn't in my in the equation. So it was just like, well, the only solution I could say was to go harder, even though I knew it was going to cost me everything. So I did it. I started using heroin. The very first time I shot heroin, I was 16 and I had that same feeling not the same high, but that same sort of thought that if I could just keep feeling like this, everything will be okay. It made me feel great for a little while, but you know, sure enough that that stopped working as well. You know, after a period of after a period of time,
 
Rodney Olsen  14:54 
I believe that during these times you even tried taking your own life a couple of times.
 
Jacob Hill  14:59 
Oh it cooks your head. Like, I mean you're dealing with people like in my situation you're dealing with a young guy who already was massively insecure. Any drive I had was gone. I saw no hope for the future. I'd ruined so many opportunities. I dropped out of school. You just look at some of the logical stuff. You've got someone who's going to be pretty low emotionally, then you chuck in all of those psychedelic chemicals and in such strong you know, drugs you're putting into a developing mind. I mean, being a kid's hard enough. You know, you know, being 16, 17 is hard enough when you're doing everything right. But yeah, you mix those those chemicals in with some real lifestyle challenges, on top of the you know, the the insecurities and on top of all the I was like flat out suicidal. First time I tried to end my life I was 17. I remember just sort of just not seeing a way out. My mates are starting to go to jail. They're starting to die of overdoses. People are starting to get hepatitis C. Getting kicked out of home. Like I literally could see no way out like way before when I could see no way out or there's like there was heroin, at least I could use heroin to make me feel okay. Now at this point where I was on heroin, and it wasn't doing it for me. I just, I could say nothing. Well, I might as well end my life. What's the point of sticking around here for to, you know, to live like this. And yeah, I made a genuine attempted suicide and praise God, it didn't work, but I was put in great lengths mental institution, I was there for a while. I came out of there, and just nothing like yours just went right back to it.
 
Rodney Olsen  16:45 
So even after having to spend time in a mental Institute, you didn't have reason to think well, this isn't working? I need to stop this kind of self destructive life? Were you still thinking there was no way out?
 
Jacob Hill  16:57 
Yeah, well, to be really honest and I have to be pretty honest with myself in saying this, as much as you want to get off because we you need to because you know, just just plain logic tells you that part of it was is actually didn't want to get out. Because partially because that's all I had known from quite a young age like from 13 my whole group of friends were in that lifestyle. I would I didn't know this at the time, but I've just, you know, from conversations I've had with guys trying to help them step off drugs, we actually get really scared of like, what will life be like without drugs? Can I handle this? Can I How can I function like in my own mind? And so you've got this medley of reasons, why quitting doesn't seem to be a viable choice. And yeah, and literally I've left there and nothing changed.
 
Rodney Olsen  17:52 
In your book, Kids at War, the Battle of Addiction, you describe an overdose that nearly took your life. I believe it was one person's actions that was the difference between life and death for you.
 
Jacob Hill  18:04 
Yeah, I overdosed after a party one night and I was y'know rushed to hospital. I was dead by the time the paramedics got to this guy's house. So what's happened is I was at this party. We've gone back to my mate's house. I was asleep on the couch, and someone's woken up my friend whose house it was and I said, can you come and wake up Jacob? He's snoring too loud. I can't sleep. I can't wake him up. Can you come and sort him out. So they're basically just wanted my friend to wake me up not out of concern for my health, but because that was keeping them awake. But he's come and he's heard this noise that they've complained about that was snoring. And he knows this sound, because the year before he was at a mate's house kicking it, watching a movie, doing some drugs. This guy falls asleep, and my my friend thinks nothing of it. And then this guy starts to what he thinks is snore, and he thinks nothing of it. But after a while he realizes something's seriously wrong and he tries to wake him up, he won't wake up. He rings the ambulance. By the time the ambulance gets there this blokes dead, 18 years of age. So when he's come out and he's heard the noise that they thought was snoring, and so he knows straightaway that this guy's not snoring, he's drowning. So what happens is you're unconscious you're laying on your back, you start to regurgitate, and then you breathe that in, you're literally drowning in your own vomit. And he knew straight away so he's jumped straight on the phone, rang the ambulance. By the time the ambulance has got to his place, I'm dead. They've had to revive me. I died a few more times. My mom is called. They said there's no chance I'm going to survive. Had I been dead for too long, basically, the oxygen I bought my body, my brain and my organs had been without oxygen. Mostly my brain had been without oxygen for too long. And there was just no way I was going to survive and they've put a piece of paper in front of her, which is they're asking her to sign a permission waiver from them to give away my organs. She didn't, which I'm pretty grateful for. But so I've pulled through about I was in a coma for a week but I've pulled through, and I've woken up. I had to learn how to walk again to learn how to breathe again. But the day I could walk, I walked straight out of the hospital and went right back to it. Yes, it was like not a lesson was learned. And even when I was in that hospital, I remember there was a lady come to me, counselor, and she's said, you need help, you know, and I said, what do I need help for? And she's like for your drug problem. And I said, lady, I don't have a drug problem. I like using drugs. Leave me alone.
 
Rodney Olsen  20:38 
So you've been committed to a mental institution and gone straight back to using drugs. You've overdosed, been in a coma for a week connected to machines and gone straight back to using drugs, Seen others that you know, lose their lives by doing the same sorts of things that you're doing, yet you're still taking drugs. Nothing so far has shaken you hard enough to change. What would finally shake you to the point of saying, enough's enough, something needs to be done.
 
Jacob Hill  21:06 
This is actually my mom. I needed some money one time and I'd ask her went and asked her for it, which I hadn't asked her for money since I was a kid since I was living at home in school, but now I was 21. I've been out of home since I was 17. And for some reason, I've gone and asked her for the money. She's told me that she doesn't want to talk to me again until I'm in rehab. And I thought, well, rehab doesn't work. Once a junkie, always a junkie, but for her, I'll give it a go. And to be really fair, I wasn't actually giving it a go to try to get off them. I was actually giving it a go, so it was way would have proved to me my theory that I was I was a lost cause basically. And I was really just thinking, this is just going to validate everything. I've thought. I'm going to do this thing go there for a few weeks. It's not going to work, and I'm just gonna come out and I'm gonna go as hard as I can till I'm dead basically. That was my my plan. Sure for you all go, but don't expect it to work.
 
Rodney Olsen  22:05 
Your book talks about the moment that you were given a decision about which rehab to go to and the strange decision that you made at the time.
 
Jacob Hill  22:12 
Yeah, the whole rehabs, like structure and system was pretty crazy in my mind, who knows? I was probably the crazy one but I was struggling to work all this thing. My normal counselor lady was she saying I couldn't get into rehab because I was using too much drugs. Like you need to go to a detox clinic, but I was using too much drugs to get into the detox clinic. So I need to use less drugs. So I could get into the detox clinic so they could detox me to get me into a rehab. And I'm thinking if I could use less drugs, or wouldn't he people. One of the weeks I go to the clinic was a different lady there. And she I'm sort of thinking, ah, if I lie to this lady, about how much drugs I'm using, she might put me straight into the detox centre or straight into the rehab or something. So when she's asked me how much I'm doing and everything I'm telling her just what I think she wants to hear. But then she says, I think Teen Challenge would be good for you. Now I'd heard about Teen Challenge a few years earlier, where I heard someone saying that they had gotten off heroin at Teen Challenge. And I remember at the time, just thinking what a pile of rubbish, but I do remember them saying that they met God at Teen Challenge, and God helped them get off heroin. And I remember just bad mouthing them in public. You know what, while they were saying it, but this lady said Teen Challenge, and I instantly remembered this. And then I'm like, are you a Christian? Are you trying to push God on me? She's like, No, no, no, we'll find you somewhere else. But it was like that little split microsecond between are you trying to push God on me and her saying, No, no, it was in that little, that little moment. I remember so clearly, just like everything slowed down and got quiet for a minute. I had a little conversation inside my head with God and it was just like, Man, this chick had talked about a miracle, like about God helping her get off heroin. And if that happened, that was a miracle. And I was thinking, the only way this is gonna happen is a miracle because I didn't even want to stop using. As much as I hated the life that I was. It was just, it was all I knew. And I remember that little split second to saying to God as a God, if you're real, you can make me stop wanting to use drugs. And I said, if you do that I'll serve you for the rest of my life. She's like, no, no we'll find you somewhere else. I'm like, No, no, give me give me the God place and she's like, no, no, no, we'll find it somewhere else and lady, give me the God place. And I don't remember much from there to, but it was a couple of months later ended up down at Teen Challenge and then the fun really started.
 
Rodney Olsen  24:43 
I understand you were picked up by a young guy who you thought fitted all the Christian stereotypes.
 
Jacob Hill  24:48 
Good Christian boy. Yeah. So like, I know this is a Christian place. I'm like, prepared for a bit of God stuff. And this little Vietnamese guy. He's the one that collects me from, it's a 10 hour bus ride, Rodney. So he comes he collects me from from the bus. He was so clean cut. Look, he just was like a church boy looking kid and I'm just like, oh my goodness, I remember just feeling so hopeless at that point. I was like, this guy looks like he's never even had panadol and just thinking, how can he help me? But then I got talking with him and he'd had the same, he was into the same stuff I'd been into. He'd been through the gangs and dealing heroin and you know, all sorts of nasty business. It's like to talk to him, you would never in a million years think he had a habit. Like he was just like, whoa, this guy's the real deal. And I remember it was this on the literally on the drive out there where I made we're actually had the thoughts like, wow, this is possible. I can do this. Like if it happened for him, it can happen for me.
 
Rodney Olsen  25:47 
All this time you've thought that there is no hope for people like you who are addicted to a life of drugs yet he's living proof of that change being possible.
 
Jacob Hill  25:56 
Yeah, right in front of me and saying he'll walk alongside me through it too.
 
Rodney Olsen  26:00 
So you're talking about having to detox from everything you'd been pumping into your body and you'd lied to get there because you understated what drugs you are taking. So they don't even know what they're dealing with when you walk through the front door.
 
Jacob Hill  26:13 
Oh man I was sick. So I taken a bunch of drugs that day. I've slept fine that night. But man after that, I did not sleep well. So the first morning was probably the start of the wake up call. So someone's knocked on my door at seven o'clock in the morning. And I'd be like, the only time I'd ever be up at seven o'clock because if I hadn't made a bed yet. So I'm like, this guy's knocked my door seven o'clock saying it's time to wake up and I just sort of went off my brain at him. I just like get out of, this is like one of the staff members, like get out of my bleeping room or I'll cut your bleeping throat. Anyway, he left, I didn't see him again for the day, but for that morning, and they let me sleep it off. And I mean, that was the last time I slept for so long. And I remember for that first couple of weeks just so so sick Rodney like, man, like there'll be times where I literally fall to the ground, my muscles or my body and my body just totally seizes up cramping to the point where I'm actually curled into a little ball. Like not my choice and shaking and feeling like I was being electrocuted and stuff. And like I just be every chance I got I'll just find a piece of sun to go and lay in just because like I was sick man about I wasn't sleeping either. I remember like every night used to be like looking forward to going to bed because I was so tired. But then not sleeping. Like the amount of times I watched the sun come up. It was months before I could sleep again. It was horrific.
 
Rodney Olsen  27:45 
You said that you believed only a miracle could turn your life around. This supposed cure is sounding pretty horrific. So when did the miracle come?
 
Jacob Hill  27:54 
I reckon it came when I met that guy at the bus stop because the night before I left, I'd popped my shoulder out in a fight so I dislocated my shoulder and I've gone to the, you know, which didn't help the sleeping situation, and so they've taken me to the doctors and I have the you know the option for some something to help with the pain and sleeping. I'm like now I don't want any of that stuff but I don't want anything to help me sleep. I don't want anything to help with the pain. I just want to be have nothing to do with with drugs even the prescribed stuff that they get I don't want anything and so it was like literally that straightaway I just said look no taste for it at all. Even though I had to go through the detox the physical side of it. Emotionally I was done with it like I was I was through it. Yeah, I mean, like not learning how to live like a healthy life or anything but the as far as wanting drugs, I was done like day one.
 
Rodney Olsen  28:51 
So after the the horror of the detox, it was then a matter of learning how to live a healthy life. What did that mean for you?
 
Jacob Hill  28:59 
Well, I talked about That detox and it's like it sounds pretty bad and go I'm looking back it was terrible. But that was the easy bit. But you can make your body do stuff you know you just got to watch a marathon and you see some people doing some pretty incredible things and but the the real hard thing for me was the emotional stuff because you got to remember that it was the emotional stuff is why I got onto drugs in the first place. And it was the emotional stuff is why I kept going harder and kept using more and more. I'll tell you the biggest the biggest key to the whole thing was learning that I was made on purpose by a God who loved me and had a plan for my life. That was the the biggest key and I really struggled to believe it though that are you know, on heaps of levels. But having that nugget is what got me through like that is still today is was what gets me through.
 
Rodney Olsen  29:58 
What age are you at this point?
 
Jacob Hill  30:00 
I went in there at 21. And it took me 14 months to finish the program. So I finished it and I just turned 23
 
Rodney Olsen  30:10 
Here you are at that point of learning the basics of how to live a normal, healthy life. You're a 21 year old man having to deal with the emotional baggage of a 12 or 13 year old that had never been dealt with.
 
Jacob Hill  30:23 
Yeah, flat out like, basically once you start checking out with drugs, you don't mature past that point to a degree because that's how we learn. Like we have a problem. We work our way through it, and we've grown it's called maturing and yeah, and I just did not do that process. So it's one of the things you see about Teen Challenge is it doesn't matter what age the bloke gets down there, they've actually just changed the name of it to Adult and Teen Challenge because they're just finding more and more grown men going in there. To a large extent they've all got the psychology of a you know of someone in their mid teens because of exactly what you said like that not growing past emotionally,
 
Rodney Olsen  31:03 
It's an interesting journey that you've been on and as I said, you thought only a miracle could make you change. You've mentioned that you had to come to an understanding that you were created on purpose and that there was a God that loved you. So, how did that finally settle for you? When did all of that begin to make some kind of sense?
 
Jacob Hill  31:22 
Gosh, good question. So take it back before I went to Teen Challenge, and you're talking about, you know, all these crazy things that happened and you know, like the hospitals the mental institutions and the overdoses and all of that stuff and people look like a you know, say well you know, these surely that was your rock bottom moment. Now, surely that was a rock bottom moment, like my lowest point in life, was driving down the along the freeway with one of my mates and the song came on the radio, Grinspoon, and the lyric went something like this. It's like were you born to be a star? Were you born to be more than you are? And I remember listening to that song and knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that i and this is someone who flat out drug addict on our way to score, some heroin, breaking every speed, like every law on the road to get to this place quicker and at that point, I remember like just knowing that I was meant I was made for something special. I was made for something more. I was made to do something important. And I could see no way of getting there. I had this drug problem, I had no education. I had no drive. It was just like, that was my lowest point, realizing I was meant for something and not having any awareness of how I could get there.
 
Rodney Olsen  32:43 
I know that you had a little bit of a picture of what you were meant for. Tell us about that picture that you carried with you in your mind.
 
Jacob Hill  32:50 
I had this picture of like, what I would actually like for a life. I saw a girl who would love me for me. That was just that was like that desire in my heart. I wanted a family. Wanted my own kids like two boys was actually what I just this image I saw. My own house where I couldn't get kicked out of anymore. A job that I didn't hate, not even one that I liked. That wasn't that wasn't even the dream. It was just a job I didn't hate. And I remember that, seeing that picture. And that was so far from possible in my mind that I attempted suicide. But as I've started to get my life back on track at Teen Challenge like that, there was a sniff of it, you know, like it was like, well, God's got a good plan for my life and he can get me there as well as starting to wake up that those feelings like now I can be doing I can do something significant with my life. My life can make it like be called to make a difference in the lives of a lot of people.
 
Rodney Olsen  33:44 
So you've had this picture of a wife or a couple of sons a job that you don't hate. You've now been through all the detox, you've been through the rehab. we fast forward quite a number of years to the current day. What does life look like for you now?
 
Jacob Hill  33:59 
It looks remarkably similar to that picture. But it was about five or six years ago, I remember that picture came to mind and I was just like, Whoa, this is my life now. Happily married, built our own home, our two little boys and it was literally like that dream that was impossible was now not just, a potential, it was like I was living it. So and it was just like, far out. The Impossible is real. Like, I'm literally living this impossible dream and it's now tangible and I live in the house, and I tuck those boys into bed every night. And it was a dog in the picture as well. And I got a really cool dog. But that was just like, Whoa, I was just like, it's time to dream again. And I went back to the drawing board. It was just like, open up my heart as like, right. Like, I know that I wasn't just created to have my 2.4 kids and my own little piece of Australia. I was like, I am created to do amazing things. And I went back to the drawing board and at that time, I was pastoring a church, the church where I'm still pastoring now, but as a young guy that was literally my dream job. Forget about a job I didn't hate it was like my dream job. And I've, you know, just dreamt again and put some a few more things on paper and then God sort of added some surprises to it. We had a beautiful little girl. And now, I still pastor the church, but I'm off staff at the church, I'm not staff anymore. And I run my own company, Purpose and Destiny, which, you know, the goal of it is, is to help people discover their purpose in life and empower them to fulfill their destiny through some of the keys that I've learned, you know, bunch of facets, like through drug education in schools to sharing my story, as well as, you know, speaking at church and it but on top of that, doing this stuff that I was doing before that was great. It's not like got rid of stuff, doing new stuff. It's just like adding to my life.
 
Rodney Olsen  35:46 
Someone listening right now might think, well, that's great for you, but can it work for anyone else? I mean, let's admit it, you had seen maybe one or two people who had been able to kick heroin but you didn't really believe that that was possible, especially for you. So someone listening might be thinking, well for me that's just not possible. Someone else listening might be thinking there's someone that I love who's addicted. Is it possible for them really possible? What would you say?
 
Jacob Hill  36:12 
Well, I'd seen zero people that have gotten off. That one girl who I saw her but I didn't actually believe it for I know now and yes, it worked. So to really understand it, my both of my brothers went down the same road I went down and my my little brother he started using. The first time he was busted selling drugs, he was like nine or 10 years old. They both ended up heroin addicts as well. Today, my both of my brothers have been through Teen Challenge are off drugs. Got, you know, beautiful families, own their own homes, like just just doing well in life. My friend who rang the ambulance for me, he's off drugs. He actually goes to church with us. And a real kicker was I just realized the other day. That guy that I was driving in the car with when I say that song came on and you know where I had that where were you born to be a star that guy he's been through Teen Challenge as well. He's off heroin too now and he's married happily married and man, God is it if He's done it for one person, he'll do it for anybody. But to take it one step further my wife Melissa, her story basically reflects mine perfectly. Change a few names a few dates, a few details her life is is exactly the same as mine she, and then she's going through Teen Challenge, encountered God, kicked drugs and alcohol addiction and really had a radical transformation and now she you know, she's so she's another one. So there's definitely is good for me, but I'm not alone.
 
Rodney Olsen  37:46 
It's good to know that there is hope available for people who have thought that things are hopeless. If someone is wanting to perhaps get in touch with you and talk through some of the things that you've experienced that would help them on their way or even get a hold of your books? How would they do that?
 
Jacob Hill  38:03 
Probably the easiest way would be, maybe jump on my website, which is JacobHill.org and there's a connect page there. Or, you know, if they look me up on Facebook, and I'm pretty good at responding to the messages and stuff.
 
Rodney Olsen  38:17 
Jacob, your life has certainly had many ups and quite a few downs and I'm sure that it's still not a perfect life, but it's in a very different place to where it was. You say that really, it came down to a miracle and that miracle is still happening every day.
 
Jacob Hill  38:32 
Man, I get to see it every day. I've got friends that are still in the scene and I you know, I still pray for them and I still hope and believe that they'll come through it and I watch them over the years. I watch them just one at a time just coming through it.
 
Rodney Olsen  38:47 
Jacob, thank you so much for your time today. As I mentioned, you've written your story down into a book that people can grab hold of if they want to read through and get some of the stories in a bit more detail. It's called Kids at War, the Battle of Addiction and It's it's a great read. We look forward to seeing where this miracle will take you next. It's been an absolute delight to chat with you.
 
Jacob Hill  39:07 
Thanks heaps for having me, Rodney.
 
Emily Olsen  39:10 
Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Richmond Wandera is a remarkable man. His life was torn apart by violence and poverty. One act by a 15 year old girl began the healing that transformed his life and the lives of those around him. In this episode of Bleeding Daylight he tells his incredible story in his own words.
Richmond speaks honestly about the day he lost his father, his home and his childhood. He discusses the devastating effects of poverty and the part we can all play in seeing the end of extreme poverty.
 
Emily Olsen
Wherever there shadows there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is bleeding daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen
Richmond Wandera has an incredible story to tell. He's the senior pastor of new life Baptist Church in Kampala, Uganda, and is the founder and director of Pastors Discipleship Network, a non-profit that serves, equips and trains thousands of pastors across East Africa.
 
He has a master's degree in spiritual formation from Moody Graduate and Theological Seminary in Chicago and holds a PhD in philosophy of leadership from Lancaster Bible College and Capital Seminary.
 
Now it might sound like Richmond has lead an extraordinary life and he has but perhaps not in the ways that you might think. His childhood was painful and challenging, marked by extreme poverty, illness, loss and hopelessness.
 
His family often went without food. He suffered from malaria almost a dozen times. Violence visited their home in a tragic way. And today, we get to spend a little bit of time unravelling some of that story. Richmond, thank you so much for your time.
 
Richmond Wandera
Thank you, Rodney. I'm happy to be here.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to talk about that moment, when as an 8 year old your life came crashing down, but before that, what are your memories as a young boy?
 
Richmond Wandera   
I was the third born of six children and I was born to a mother who was married off at a very, very young age at the age of 17. By the time she was 25, she had six children and I was a third born of that, as I already said. But my father, he was a lawyer, okay, and he was able to provide for our family.
 
So he wasn't the typical lawyer that you'd imagine with a suit and tie and you know, all of that, no, no. He was the kind of person who couldn't wait to take off the tie and who couldn't wait to take off the suit.
 
And I recall two specific instances with my dad. Us driving to watch his favourite team play and he's going clearly over the speed limit and we're at the back slamming the side of the car saying KCC, KCC because that was his favorite football team and it was all chaotic, but it was fun.
 
And I do remember that the time when he believed that he could lift all six of us and my mother our bed and he tried and we knew he hadn't succeeded but he believed he had. So I do remember very, very fond memories of my dad and my mom. And Rodney, we were really one united family heading towards a bright future until all that changed.
 
Rodney Olsen  
Tell me how that changed.
 
Richmond Wandera 
I was eight years old when I was rushed out of school, only to come home and find that my mother and father we're not around yet there were a lot of people gathered around the house and people were crying and wailing and they'd put three massive old pieces of wood in front of our house and lit them on fire.
 
In Uganda when you see that, you know that death has come to that home and I did not know who died. I did not know what happened and then it dawned on me when I saw the blood in front of our home that someone has been taken away from our home.
 
Oh Rodney, I learnt later that day that my father had been murdered in the presence of my mom, and my mom was in hospital for witnessing what my father had to experience.
 
Something happened to her body. She changed. On that day it seemed like I'd lost both my parents my father, physically he was killed and murdered. But my mom emotionally and psychologically she was not the same.
 
My mom was the kind of woman you called when you're having a bad day, she was sunshine, she could talk your ear off. She was very loud and happy but Rodney, the woman who returned home, my mother, she was different.
 
She was quiet. She was subdued. She was not laughing anymore and Rodney, that really affected us. Not just the loss of my dad, but the change of my mom and we began to experience some forms of injustice that are hard to describe.
 
I think the first one was when my mother tried to get the benefits from my father's work and she was told she had to pay money for those benefits to be processed out and she ended up not take getting a penny for my father's work.
 
The other thing that happened was my uncle who should have taken care of us was in financial problems about that time and he ended up taking what belonged to my father, my father suits my father's clothing, the furniture at home and basically sold all of that to take care of his own financial problems, leaving my mother and her six children in a more desperate place.
 
Rodney Olsen
There was six of you children, what was the age range?
 
Richmond Wandera
The oldest was 12 while the youngest was one.
 
Rodney Olsen
So you've got a 12 year old older sibling was that brother or sister?
 
Richmond Wandera
 Brother.
 
Rodney Olsen
You're eight, in the middle there and you have a one year old. So seeing this with your mother, you're not only having to process your own grief and as an eight year old, I guess that was a difficult thing enough, but trying to process what was happening with your mom,
 
Richmond Wandera
Again, we had seen women in the community be abused, and unfortunately, women have been looked at, categorized and sadly, completely abused in in our cultural space. Now that's changing, thank God,but, but by the time this was happening, women were not regarded as having equal rights as men.
 
It was hard to see my mother just in tears and she's just helplessly trapped. She couldn't talk to any of the elders or any of the community leaders or any of the people in the tribal group that were in a place of influence, because she was a woman, she basically did exactly as she was told and so it was hard to see that.
 
So she is already in a place of difficulty, having lost her husband, and now six children are hanging on to her for hope, as well as all this injustice that's coming to our home. We're in a government system that does not provide welfare to people in her state. And so she's actually in this place of total devastation. Her health is not good and so Rodney, it was in this time, that the worst came when we were asked to leave the home, because we only had that house that we're living in because of my father's work. And once he was out of the picture, we had to leave the house and that's how we ended up in Nagaru Slum.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to explore that slum and find out a bit about it. But, but first, maybe some background because this is all happening against a background of what's happening in Uganda at the time. Tell us, tell us about your country.
 
Richmond Wandera  
You're right, Rodney. This is happening against a very massively dark background. 1971 was the beginning of a reign of Idi Amin who was a brutal dictator and he ruled the country for nine long years.
 
Many people at the time thought it was the end of the world because of so much death and the reckless behaviour of the soldiers and the army and the killings that just were unending.
 
But 1979 when Idi Amin was overthrown, it plunged us into a new era of another form of darkness, which was again continued reckless death but it just really was a season where we had so many presidents each coming in as a rebel leader and no one coming in by the vote.
 
In between 1979 and 1986, we saw another very dark period. I think the height of the war in Uganda happened in 1986, which is popularly known as the Luwero Triangle War, where two rebel groups who are pressing against the government simultaneously. Again, this is a long period 1971 to now 1986 a whole period of just death in the country, and many people fearing for their future and so that has now caused Uganda to be the world's second leading country, with the youngest population right under Benin.
 
70% Rodney, listen, 70% of my nation's population is below the age of 30 years and 50% of the 70% is below the age of 15.
 
So we have a very young population, but this has come as a result of long standing civil war and in the midst of this background that our story is happening and so it's not just a crisis within our home, but it's a crisis of the nation.
 
Rodney Olsen
The nation's in crisis your family's in absolute crisis, and as you say, you end up in a slum paint us a picture of that slum.
 
Richmond Wandera
Nagaru Slum was regarded by many as the forgotten community. I mean, it's a valley of over 19,000 homes but each home, not having a space more than five by five meters.
 
No home was that size and moreover, it was small homes one after another, a whole line of homes probably sharing the same toilet, and no places for children to play. No hygiene, no hospitals. It was a place where most kids do not go to school and so everybody knew if it is crime or drugs or whatever you thought of this gang activity as more from Naguru.
 
The police and the government had in some way kind of given up on that community. So when my mother said to us, we found a space in Naguru where we will move to you can imagine the fear that ended our hearts as children. We're going to Naguru this place and indeed when we arrived, I remember walking into our house and looking around and all the eyes of the community just looking at us like, "who are these people coming in" and so we’re those coming in and I entered in saw this one roomed house, and I saw what seemed like sunrays pressing through the iron sheets, as like what happened when it rains.
 
Rodney, I was soon to find out because not all long after that our rainy season kicked in and I recall one night the rain being so strong, the wind being too too strong that our center iron sheet was not able to bear that wind and it was literally blown off the roof.
 
Rodney our home just became one giant bucket. I remember us picking up whatever we could and basically standing with those clothes and blankets and those items right close to our shoulders and our chest and standing on the side of the house as the rain came through.
 
We couldn't run out because it was dark and lightning and thunder and wind. We couldn't stay in and it was that night, Rodney, that I felt like I had lost myself.
 
When I reflect on what I was lost that night, I think I didn't just lose dignity but I lost identity. I lost who I was that kind of almost like life was just screaming angrily against against me as a child.
 
Two other things that I could say is my constant waking up in the morning and fearing because of the bumps of mosquito bites on my skin that I would get sick of malaria. I've seen so many kids died from malaria. And after my mom had said to us, there's no more money for food, I remember just going out and spending a lot of time on the street trying to survive and I wouldn't wish that on any child., No child, Rodney, should live through life like that. Not in a world that has the resources that we have.
 
Rodney Olsen
We often imagine poverty as, as a lack of resources as a lack of stuff so to speak, but you're talking about something that's much deeper than that.
 
Richmond Wandera   
Absolutely. Rodney, again, most people if you ask them define poverty or describe poverty, they'll use very physical descriptors for that. They say poverty is a lack of food, it's a lack of clothing. It's a lack of roof over your head, it's a lack of having that shelter and while that is true, that's only one side of poverty.
 
I think the real monster and the most devastating side of poverty is the invisible side. It's that voice. For me. It was like an ugly voice that constantly spoke to me I couldn't escape it, that I was nothing. I was unwanted. Nobody knew my name. Nobody wanted to know my name.
 
Every time I thought of something happy or what I want to be in the future, it's just you didn't even have food the previous night. You're not sure you're gonna have food tonight. What are you thinking about? Dreaming about a future and you? It just makes it feel like you're a joke like you completely, like you don't exist.
 
I remember Mother Teresa saying that, feeling forgotten, and feeling unwanted. is a much greater poverty than the lack of food. Rodney, I totally agree with Mother Teresa's words because I know what that felt like.
 
Rodney Olsen
How does that eight year old living in those sort of circumstances, having poverty speak to you daily about you not being worth anything, how does that boy become the man that sits before us today?
 
Richmond Wandera 
Well, it's just a beautiful thing, what happens when people choose to act. You know, I think everybody's looking at this and nobody's actually surprised that there is poverty in the world and that there are people who are suffering. But I think the story becomes beautiful when people act and not just empathize or have compassion.
 
So I was only about nine years old now and my mother hears that there is a church in the neighbourhood that supports children. Now remember, my mother is was a woman without faith, and my father didn't believe in God and we all were just in a space where we believed in our old African tradition and just looked at people at churches like go there, those are those people and we just just didn't connect with them at all.
 
And Rodney to describe the courage that my mother took it was, it's like me being a Christian today walking into like a Buddhist temple or something asking for help for my children. It's weird because it's like okay when I enter that, what will I find? Am I allowed to greet as a woman, am I allowed to, to greet the vicar, or the pastor, and what do I say? I mean, it's just very weird walking into a space, which practices a different spiritual expression from you. It's scary. But my mother because she was desperate, she walks into this space and says, "Look, I'm desperate. This is my story. If you guys can help, please do".
 
And Rodney, my mother was surprised she was surprised at how fast the Compassion workers at the local church came to our home and they came with cameras and with pictures, I mean with files and they took our birthday information and background of us as a family. And they took pictures of us Rodney. I remember standing in front of this camera and the flash went off and I felt like hope was coming felt like hope was coming and indeed three and a half months after that, we got the news we got the news that a, listen, and this this gets gives me chills just saying, that a 15 year old girl called Heather had decided to sponsor me.
 
Just thinking about that just grips me a fresh all the time that my life was rescued by one act of a 15 year old girl and when my mother was told she almost fell off the chair. She's like this could easily be my daughter. And Rodney, I can't get, I fail to get my mind around that. I mean, if you think about most 15 year olds and what they think about themselves, but also what other people think about 15 year olds, they don't give them a lot of credit.
 
They keep saying to them look when you're older when you're 24, 25 and you've got a job and you have some spare income, then you will make a difference, then you'll change the world, then you can be a part of this fight. But at the age of 15, Heather, she had the maturity to take a babysitting job. And out of that, was able to take care of me. For me, , that's wild. It's beyond my understanding, but it's shaped what I believe today about 15 year olds.
 
Rodney Olsen
Do you think sometimes we don't expect enough from our teenagers from our 15 year olds, 14 year olds, 18 year olds?
 
Richmond Wandera
Absolutely. Absolutely. Rodney, I believe just in that can be seen from how we treat them, and how we organize programs for them and what opportunities we provide for them to make a difference.
 
It's evident wherever you see or wherever you turn, that 15 year olds are treated as those who will make a difference later and not today, and we've got to change that. We've got to change that. We've got to call a 15 year old and say, "You have everything now to do whatever God has called you to do right now. Whatever your passion is, or whatever the impact that's lined up for you to do right now you can do it right now." And Rodney, I'll tell you one way I am doing that in my community. So young kids when they reach the age of 14, I begin to call them sir. And people wonder why are you calling this kid sir but I, the whole posture changes.
 
When I'm the Senior Pastor right now the church that rescued me as a kid, when I come up, I'm usually dressed up as expected in my community that I will be it no matter how hot it is, I'm dressed a certain way. But I look at this 14 year old I say good morning, sir and Rodney, there is a physical impact of that word. I mean, you just see them standing before you say ah, immediately almost speak responsibility to them. And Rodney this, what I'm finding that when you look at a 15 year old and say you have now all that you need to make a difference right now sir. Really? The world doesn't say that to me. The school doesn't say that to me. Clearly my peers don't say that to me. You saying that to me? What do you see that I don't see? And so teenagers can change the world. And one teenager changed my world.
 
Rodney Olsen
How did that change look for you? Once you found out Heather, a 15 year old girl who didn't have the capacity to sponsor you, but said, I'm going to and I'm going to take a babysitting job to do that. How did that start to change your world?
 
Richmond Wandera 
You know, when Heather took a babysitting job to sponsor me, she was able to provide Compassion International with $48 a month, and from that Compassion was able to send that money to the local church in my community and that local church was able to provide very specific needs that I had.
 
The first one was food. You know, food is so basic, and if you live in a country where food is available, easily accessible, this point is not as strong but it is an extremely strong point. If you live in a country where people have died from starvation, and so food was provided for me, health care was provided for me. I still remember my health care number UG 129/0064 I can never forget that because it was given to me and said Richmond anytime you fall sick, don't even run to church or run to the Compassion project run to any dispensary or hospital around you. They will they all have our list of sponsored kids and hey, they'll take care of you and don't worry about the bill. And Rodney that was, the second benefit.
 
So first was education was was food second was health. The third was education. Rodney, in our country, Uganda. If you don't have money to go to school, the doors are closed, and until someone with the ability to open those doors shows up, the doors remain closed.
 
For me, Heather, she was half the way around the world but because of her generous sacrifice, I was told Richmond, you can now go back to school. This is gonna be your scholastic materials, and I was given a school uniform and I still have a picture of myself running to school and it changed and unlocked my potential in massive ways. But then the other thing is I got a chance to be a child again.
 
My time on the street had ripped childhood off of me completely and there was no time to be a child because I had to provide for my sister and my brothers, I had to protect them. There's no time to be a child, but here I was now in a space where there are merry go rounds, the see saws and it's a church, it's a safe place, and there I was and I was also under the care of people who were not necessarily paid to take care of children, but they felt it was a calling from God to take care of children and so they would work extra hours without any additional pay. They do this work and take care. And Rodney, it was there that I met Pastor Peter.
 
Pastor Peter became the father that I did not have. He stood with me, he mentored me to this day, and he's worked closely with me. And all these doors were opening, because one 15 year old, had made a decision to live simply so that I could simply live. And I could not be more grateful. And so the way I live today is really to give back as much as I can and make a difference as a way of saying thank you.
 
Rodney Olsen
There were voices back for that eight year old that was saying, You're worthless. You're never going to be anything.
 
Richmond Wandera 
Yeah.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're a joke. What were the the voices that came from Heather for you? What were the words that you experienced from Heather?
 
Richmond Wandera 
You know, it's such a serious problem of poverty, because poverty like a voice speaks to the child again, constantly, as I mentioned earlier. You're worthless. You are nothing. Nobody wants you, and so that level of poverty, that invisible poverty, there is no amount of money you can throw at it, to overcome it. There's no amount.
 
You could clothe me up well, but the voice remains. You could give me Vaseline for my face and lotion and the voice remains. There is nothing you can do using money to overcome that voice. The only thing that overcomes that voice is a counter voice. A counter message, and Heather's letters brought to me words like Richmond, I love you. Richmond, I'm praying for you.
 
She was part of a Presbyterian Church and so she could send me kids pictures of the kids of the Presbyterian Church. She wanted she sent me a picture of her pet dog and said, "Hey, do you love dogs?" She completely didn't understand that we have no pet culture back home, and so that was a really funny question that she asked. But she sent me stickers. She sent me cards that had music in them and Rodney these, these small and simple things, were able to awake the Richmond that was slowly dying.
 
And she said words over and over again words that I was not hearing in my community and I believe that there is there is something to be said about the community in which your child grows in. When a child grows up in Naguru, all they see is gangs and fighting and dirty water and death, and it shapes the child's person, not just the body but the child's person. And so when I got these counter messages from Heather, at first when she said I love you, I thought you don't even know me, how can you love me? But Rodney, Heather said that enough times that I believed her. And that's the work of God. It's a miracle. It's a miracle that a person who believes deeply darkness about themselves can actually change that belief system because of the words that are countering the message that they have always been hearing.
 
And I believe that it doesn't take that much to change the life of a child. It really doesn't take that much. But it takes that constant presence and that affirmation and that belief that, hey, I'm here with you. There's nothing you can ever do to for me to let you go. I'm here. And I think that children can tell and I was able to tell, and I believed Heather's words. And I think that's what brought the healing that I currently experience and now I'm very passionate about extending to other children.
 
Rodney Olsen
You mentioned Pastor Peter a little while ago, and I believe that there's a particular story that he shared with you that made a radical difference in your life.
 
Richmond Wandera 
So I joined the project at a very young age and but I like I said to you earlier Rodney, I didn't come from a family of faith. We didn't believe in God. We didn't believe in Christianity or anything like that but we just wanted help and we found help at the church.
 
And it was at that church that I met this man, Pastor Peter, who later on became the father that I did not have but again, on joining the project, we began to hear about the gospel, about the good news of Jesus Christ, I received my first Bible at the local project. I began to read this book, and then to interact with friends about it, and then to hear all these stories that were very, very exciting and engaging and I wish I had made the decision earlier but it waited until I was 14 years old, that I finally heard this story from Genesis 39 and 40, about this boy, Joseph and Pastor Peter spoke with passion and pleading with us about Christ and he said, that this boy, Joseph, he went through all these difficult things in his life, not of his own making.
 
He went through all these challenges, but there was a God who had a good plan for him. And Rodney, my heart was touched and I could feel deeply that I'm, I need this God in my life, I am a sinner, I need to repent and change and become anything that this God would want me to be.
 
Then Rodney, that is how I made my decision to follow God and I had no idea that it was going to completely change my future and change my family. Few Years later on, I was 19 years old, and Rodney, I had had the opportunity to see all five of my siblings make a decision to follow Christ, all of them led to Christ by Pastor Peter.
 
When I was 19, I had the absolute joy of seeing my mother invite herself to church and she sat at the back and Pastor Peter was going as he normally goes every Sunday, talking with just passion about God, and my mother, she walked forward, knelt down, accepted Christ in her heart and Rodney in that moment, I just knew that our family will not be the same again, and that was true.
 
Because all the injustices that had happened to my mother, the man who basically swindled all the money that she was entitled to, as a result of my father's work, and basically stole that money from her when she needed it the most. My mother was able to forgive him. My uncle who took from us at the point of desperation, my mother looked at him and forgave him.
 
My uncle ended up falling sick of cancer and when my mother invited us and said, "Look, let's go and take care of uncle in hospital", I knew that my mother had finally forgiven. That action was almost impossible for a person who treated you so badly at a time when you needed them the most.
 
Two days before my uncle passed, my mother led my uncle to the Lord. In the first days I remember just being there with tears in my eyes as my uncle when we first arrived at the hospital, he refused to look at us. He refused the forgiveness that we're offering saying, look, I deserve to go to hell I deserve. of course, my life, I don't deserve your forgiveness. And he also suspected that we aren't actually able to forgive him and so he he looked away for a while and then after that, my mother looked at him and just kept caring for him.
 
A few days into it. My uncle was insistent that whatever I will get after I die I deserve because of my actions. So just leave me letting me be. And my mother looked at him. I remember Rodney, my mother asking one of the most profound questions I've heard.
 
My mother asked my uncle, could you use your finger to point at anybody here who you think deserves to go to heaven, who's lived a life that is so right? My uncle looked, and my mother said, that's it. It's all by grace. All of us. None of us deserve it. That's why it's a gift. And Rodney, it was just tears. As we saw my mother lead my uncle to the Lord and I came back with such an understanding of the gospel after the day like, like, like I've never seen.
 
And all this change is happening, simply, my mother obviously, heard the gospel from Pastor Peter, but she would have never been in the church space, if it wasn't for Compassion. and Compassion would never have been able to sustain its work in the past if it wasn't for Heather. And so I think about some of these connected pieces, names connected to names, churches connected to churches, individuals connected individuals, and I'm just saying what a tapestry of God's amazing plan.
 
Rodney Olsen
Fast forward, you finished your schooling and then went on to university. What happened then?
 
Richmond Wandera 
I had a passion to fight corruption, I had heard at the time that Uganda was the sixth most corrupt country in the world and my vision and dream was to heal my corrupt country by training accountants.
 
So I went and studied very hard. And I graduated on top of my class with a bachelor's degree in accounting. And I graduated with such good grades that the university retained me as a tutorial assistant and I began to lecture at the university and I was passionate about teaching accounting, especially the ethical side of accounting. And that was a wonderful time but then, Rodney, it just kept before me the story of my mother and how she was completely freed from this unforgiveness and this bitterness that was very common in the Naguru Slum.
 
I thought, look, I mean, our community in Naguru needs accountants and it needs business people and it needs the health and food and support but what I think our community needs is that which changes us on the inside, that which brings hope.
 
So I began to pursue pastoral ministry and Pastor Peter, who was my senior pastor then was then promoted to become the General Secretary of the Baptist Union of Uganda and so Pastor Peter said to me, Richmond, I think it's time. It's time for you to become the senior pastor of this church. And so Rodney I knelt down before a group of elders and witnesses who basically named me the senior pastor of the very church that rescued me as a child.
 
So I began to serve, but without training, and so I began to serve very diligently and later on the Lord opened the door for me to do a master's degree in spiritual formation and discipleship. Then it just hit me just hit me like a ton of bricks that now I was in the top 1% of pastors in my country who would finally now got theological training. That's like, wow, to whom much is given, much is also required. And so I pulled myself together and I began to pray and ended up launching the Pastor's Discipleship Network, which is a ministry that brings pastors together to study the Word to acquire ministry tools and ministry skills so that they can go and teach the Bible accurately but also lead ministry effectively.
 
And so I began that with a focus on Kampala City, my city that I love. And I did not know that God had such a bigger vision for that. Today, we've expanded way beyond Kampala City across the nation to four other countries. So we're in South Sudan, we're in the Democratic Republic of Congo, we're in Rwanda and we're in Uganda.
 
In the next year, we'll be launching our space in Kenya, where pastors come together to study the Word of God and to disciple each other. And so I look back and look at the number we're Rodney, we're now at 6,000. 6,000 pastors in the East African space that are part of this network, and we're diligently discipling each other and learning. And I think that where did it all start and I can't escape the fact that all this potential was dying on the street until a 15 year old girl put up her hand and said, I'll make a difference, I will join that fight.
 
Rodney Olsen
Life is so very different now to what it was for that eight year old boy, that happy eight year old boy whose life changed in an instant, and so much has happened since then. We talked before about the voices of poverty speaking to you. Now we know that they were wrong. We know that there were counter voices. But do those voices sometimes still try to get in your head?
 
Richmond Wandera 
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, I'll tell you just one specific story when I was invited to a very high profile dinner, and I honestly didn't believe I deserved to enter that space because I had categorized myself as being lower in the community strata and I decided, look, I don't know if it's gonna be very awkward walking through this space where everyone is a leader with such a good background such a good education. What would I be doing in this space?
And yes, those voices kept getting into my head but that's why I'm passionate about breaking those lies. I got help. I remember Steve Wilson, a gentleman who has been very very helpful to me in helping me identify these lies that continue and linger on because it's not that black and white where you can identify it.
 
Sometimes it's there and you don't even know. It's been with you so long that that becomes your new normal and till someone on the outside looks and says hello Richmond, why do you look at yourself like that? Why are you so constantly disqualifying yourself from opportunities, disqualifying yourself from our conversations?
 
Wow, I need that and I realize, man, some of these lies still linger on in some way but will probably not as it is in some of the children's lives but I think for me, it's a constant battle.
 
And that's why the more I talk to children about this the more I talk to fellow Compassion kids about it, the more I free myself from some of these things, and the sharper my eyes get in identifying some of these lies.
 
And so yes Rodney, sometimes it's a constant battle. And I think in some way, it is an onslaught from the enemy to really affect our identity not just in Uganda, but around the world. There is an identity crisis. There are people who are wondering who they are, what they are, and inside people's hearts, there's always this tickling thought, I mean, what if I live my life more fully? What if I really unleash the potential that's inside of me, but quickly, then they quiet that voice? Because I, you know, probably not today, maybe tomorrow I'll I'll press that or press into that thought a little bit more in other day, but not now. And so it's just constant postponing of, of this suspicion that I could actually do more than I'm currently doing, but they keep extending it to tomorrow. And I think that that's it's pronounced even more in the poverty space.
 
But I know that most people will recognize it and it's, it's the more we fight in our own lives and feel the impact that happens when we release ourselves more fully into serving others into being a blessing into making a difference, then the more we can to release others into their full potential.
 
Rodney Olsen
You already touched on a real message for you, and that is that we should be living more simply so that others may simply live.
 
Richmond Wandera
Yeah.
 
Rodney Olsen
Maybe that's a thought that you'd like to leave with us today.
 
Richmond Wandera
Yeah, Rodney. I honestly believe that. It's not that complicated. Every time I choose, or I volunteer to live with less immediately that single decision, even though I make it now, it immediately frees up time, resources and talent, so that I could then allocate that to someone else.
 
I mean, I'll just give you an example right now. So if I was going to have a meal today, and the meal, let's say costs $5. And I decided I am not having that meal, because I want to live simply, I'm just going to spend through today thinking and reflecting and pondering on the thought of what does it mean to make a difference, and I'm just not gonna have that meal.
 
Immediately $5 is freed and that $5 is not just freed, it's also the time that have taken for that meal, that's also freed up and so I could give that $5 to somebody, as well as it could be spend that one hour which I would have walked to the place, had the meal and then walk back and I probably walked to another place and maybe there's a refugee family that's down the street that has a young boy that cannot speak English and is struggling in class and I could I could do that, or I could walk down the street and work with somebody, maybe someone who was disability or a special need and just spend time with them.
 
Well, I could call up somebody who's struggling to understand something and basically, so I mean, it's a simple thing, but it's actually very radical. And when a person decides, like, look, I could spend all my money buying the latest toys and the latest this, or I could just choose to say, look, I have chosen, this is my life, I make a decision today to live simply. That's my choice. Nobody's forcing it on me. It's my voluntary choice. And when someone decides that, immediately that frees up resources, it frees up time and frees up talent, to be able to invest into the world and if that investment is made in people, it makes all the difference.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And we get off the treadmill that the world wants us to stay on.
 
Richmond Wandera 
Exactly.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Richmond it's been such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time.
 
Richmond Wandera 
Thank you Rodney.
 
Emily Olsen
Thank you for listening to bleeding daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit BleedingDaylight.net
Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This is a short episode that explains a little about Bleeding Daylight and its host, Rodney Olsen.