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Everret Maxine’s story is one of heartache, but it isn’t one of defeat. Everret is using the struggles and hurdles of her life to walk alongside others who are facing their own pain and hurt. Today we’ll hear how her life of loss has helped her to become an agent of healing. She believes that being a survivor carries responsibility and an opportunity to serve others. She uses her podcast the absence of her to share her life story, and the lessons she has learned as a way of helping others through their own dark times.
 
 
https://www.spreaker.com/user/theabsenceofher
https://www.facebook.com/IAmEverretMaxine
https://twitter.com/everretmaxine
https://www.instagram.com/iameverretmaxine
 
 
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Everret Maxine’s story is one of heartache but it isn’t one of defeat. Everret is using the struggles and hurdles of her life to walk alongside others who are facing their own pain and hurt. Today we’ll hear how her life of loss has helped her to become an agent of healing.
 
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Everret Maxine Johnson has seen more than her fair share of heartache but she's now sharing the lessons that trauma and difficulty had taught her to help others. She believes that being a survivor carries responsibility and an opportunity to serve others. She uses her podcast the absence of her to share her life story, and the lessons she has learned as a way of helping others through their own dark times. It's my privilege to introduce you to her today, Everret, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Everret Maxine 
Good morning. Good morning.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Your story is one of loss in various ways and your first great loss began at a very young age, at just 10, help me understand what was happening for you at that time.
 
Everret Maxine 
Well, at 10, my mother and I were still living with my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, and her sister lived there as well. That was my great aunt. And me and my great aunt Lv, we were inseparable. She would create little games for me to play. And she was a lot older than I was when she passed, I think she was about 70. So she was like, it was like a 60 year difference, but we would play in the yard together, we would, we would just do all kinds of things together. And so when she passed, it was really hard for me. She went through two types of cancer and the last time she had, I believe it was a tumor in the stomach because she had two different things back to back and we had went to Astroworld, which was the theme park here in Texas. And I was having such a nice time. And I'm on a ride with my friend. And mind you I'm a 10 year old kid. And I look at my friend and it's not my friend. It's my aunt Lv sitting next to me, waving goodbye. I was just stunned, like what just happened. So I get back to my aunt Odessa's house. And we're there. And my uncle called to say that my great aunt surgery went fine. And he had left a message on the voicemail. And shortly after that, he called and said, she passed away. I beat my fist into the floor. I cried all night, I cried for days. Because here I was 10 years old, I didn't understand. And me and my friend had made her a welcome home sign. And I was so excited because I didn't understand death. You know, when you're a kid, you think everybody is immortal. And so that was really hard for me to understand.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So even before her passing, she was going through a very serious illness with the cancer. What was that like for you as a child, seeing someone that you loved going through that difficulty?
 
Everret Maxine 
Once she started going through, it was hard for me because she couldn't do the things that she used to do. And then she was relocated out of my grandmother's home to the nursing home, my mom worked back. Even though she was ill, I couldn't really tell other than her being in the nursing home until they had to shave her hair off for a surgery. And I believe that was the second surgery. And it was seeing her hair shaved off, her beautiful hair got gray hair gone. And she just didn't look like the same person. Now she looked like a sick woman. In my mind, I still thought that hey, this was my playmate, my great aunt, my friend, she was still going to recover from this.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I know it sounds like you're surrounded by family at this stage. There's your mother and Uncle another auntie. were they trying to explain to you what was happening at the time? Or do they feel you're a child? And we'll try and keep that away from you?
 
Everret Maxine 
You know, Rodney, nobody took the time to explain to me what was going on. I was an only child at the at the time and my mother always felt Well, she's intelligent, she understands. And I think people think when you're book smart, you understand all things and you don't like even kids that are really smart me life experiences explained to them,
 
Rodney Olsen 
I guess it must have been difficult for them at that time as well. Seeing a loved relative who's on the verge of passing away, but it would be difficult to not actually know what's going on until it happened. So how did you begin to find a way back from that? How did you begin to find healing?
 
Everret Maxine 
Well, I started attending church when after she passed away, there was a church around the corner, and I started going to the church at that time. My mom was not going to church with me. And I started participating in a youth group. And as a youth group, we had a youth matron who I'm still associated with now. And she was just like this great woman of God had all this positive energy. And I started being around other children my age because at that time, I had only been around my aunt really, I would go to school. But as far as like being around children my age I didn't spend much time with. So when I started going to church, I was learning about God and this awesome power of positive experience in this life and salvation and that was just like my source. Like, anytime they opened the church doors, even if it was the elders having a prayer service, I want it to be in the midst of that,
 
Rodney Olsen 
After this tragedy of losing your great art, you found something to hang on to. And it sounds like church was a great place of solace for you. But back at school, it wasn't all that easy, was it?
 
Everret Maxine 
No, it wasn't because my newfound love for Christ did not eliminate my reality. One thing about Christianity, and I had to learn that over the years, is that although believing in Christ gives us a positive hope, it doesn't mean you're not going to go through things. Like when you're a baby in Christ, should I say you think oh, well, I believe in Christ. So I'm not gonna go through anything. And at school, I was still kind of like an oddball. Like I say, my mom only birth one child. So I didn't really know how to fix my hair. And I didn't wear the latest trends. And I didn't really care too. That was my thing. I didn't have to feel like I needed to wear the latest trends. I just cared about bookwork. I like homework, I like test, I loved math class. And so the kids picked on me a lot.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you're being picked on you're being bullied, I believe you're even skipping school at this stage. So something that you love you're trying to stay away from, because it's just too painful to be there. How did you reconcile those things of wanting to be there so much, and yet, knowing that, that's just going to bring extra pain for you?
 
Everret Maxine 
Well, I don't believe I just ever really reconciled it. I tolerated it. I never really learned how to do my school years defend myself. Due to junior high years, I would still go but I would go like half of the day, I would let up think my mother would think I've been to school all day, because she worked two jobs. So anything that was going on with me, it was putting me into a like a dark depression. I just really I didn't even you know, want to live or exist anymore. And one of the things that I talked about in the podcast is my attempts with suicide, and wanting to give up on life. I tried a number of times, but my relationship with God and knowing God, and knowing the basics of Heaven and Hell, even though I hated being on earth and felt like I was living in Hell, I was afraid that if I ended my life, I would end up in hell eternally. And so I kind of just feel like I was just stuck and had to pick up the pieces. Now once I got to me in high school, you think about college and things like that. And because my home life kind of wasn't, you know what everybody thought, I just figured, okay, if I buckled down, get the good grades, I can go off to college, and all of this life will be behind me. And well, it just didn't work out that way. But you know, I pushed through. I did graduate on time, I did graduate with honors as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And around the age of 16, your family life started to change to I believe.
 
Everret Maxine 
A whole lot things change. This is about in 1997 that my mother did get married. She got with him, I want to say in about 96. So during the time that my mother had got with her husband, I was a teenager, he had just been us for the most of our life. And so I was like, I'm not gonna live in this situation. I'll go live with my grandmother because we had moved out of my grandmother's house after my great aunt passed. I kept going back about I leave my mom's house, you know, I can't I can't do this. Because when she brought him into the picture, and I only speak about this because this was their past. They wants to deliver it from it. Call him my father. Now because he was there most of my life. He had a drug habit. She was still battling alcohol use. So that combined was just a toxic environment. At the point that my grandmother had accepted that hey, yeah, you know, maybe it'll be okay for you to come and stay. My grandmother passed away. So then they got married. My mom asked me what I attend a wedding and I told her No, I just couldn't. Because I believe if you attend a wedding and you sit Watch them exchange your vows. You agree to uphold those vows and support the marriage. And in my whole heart, I couldn't do that. I helped her get dressed for the wedding. You know, she wasn't beautiful that day, but I just could not attend.
 
Rodney Olsen 
That must have been a real struggle for you. Is there any time since then that you've regretted that or you still feel that that was the thing that you had to do in that moment,
 
Everret Maxine 
Even though they've both now passed on, I don't regret my decision. Because I knew that I couldn't support the marriage. I mean, I had my own wedding, I wouldn't want anybody whether they're blood or friend, to show up if they don't support.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So this is all still happening while you're still in your teenage years and these are the years that are the most formative years in our lives. And yet, it seems to be one trauma after another year, you've lost your great art, you've never lost your grandmother and and your mother is entering into a marriage that you you don't agree with? Again, where are you finding solace during this time? Where are you finding someplace to go to that is helping you through these difficulties,
 
Everret Maxine 
Our still crying out to God, because at this point, right about 16 was when I had stopped attending church, because when she got in the relationship, it was harder for me to go because it was like, I was radical for Christ, like I believed in Christ. And it was as if they were testing my faith, July of 1996, a couple of months before they got married, I had also been sexually assaulted, I had went to go stay with a friend from church and their family. And so nobody knew about it. And I waited about two months for I actually told anyone, but I kind of withdrew from the church, and the youth matron that I was close to we lost contact for some years. And so I just had to continue in my own faith. And with my own hope that once I graduated, I can just go to college and be free of the situation.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you're holding this hurting side that you've not told anyone about what happens when you do graduate college? How does life start to turn at that point,
 
Everret Maxine 
Right before I graduate high school, I was accepted to several different colleges, Spelman College, and Georgia Liberty University in Virginia, just a number of colleges, but I was not allowed to travel outside the state. My parents didn't think that was the best choice. My mom had a hard time supporting my decision to go to college. She had gotten her GED at the age of 17, when she had her first marriage before I was born. And she had been a Nurse Aide for majority of her life. So she just kind of felt like, you know, why are you pursuing this college thing? Why can't you just get a job like normal people and save money because not many people in my family at that point had been to college. So my first semester I went off to Wharton junior college, and I enjoyed it. I still worked, but it none of my college experience was like, you know, get to go enjoy the clubs or the college experience. My first semester was spent at Wharton, and then I went to Baylor, which was highly expensive. So of course, on my own, I couldn't afford it. And I really couldn't afford to stay. So then I ended back at Wharton. From then there was some gaps for some years. Somewhere in there. I would do a couple of classes here and there. But I didn't get to really have a consistent college, career and experience.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So how did college continue for you? Did you manage to graduate? Where did you get to with your studies?
 
Everret Maxine 
Well, in January of 2005, I decided to pursue a degree in environmental health and safety after working in a couple of what we call shutdowns. After chemical plants. It's where they shut down the plant for maintenance. And so I would do like helper jobs or Firewatch jobs and fire watches just watch for fires I happen. I saw people being this job title call safety tech that paid really well. And so I went and got my associates degree in environmental health and safety. And I graduated with that in December 2007. Now seeking employment for that particular position really didn't work out in my favor. But I did end up continuing my bachelor's degree and I want to say I went back around oh eight and started on my bachelor's degree again. There was some delay. After I went back I started attending Texas Southern University. Originally my bachelor's degree was in communications and poly side because I wanted to be a attorney. And when I decided to continue it I said, Well, I want to do education, I had been a substitute part time here and there. And I really liked being in the classroom. So I'm happy to say, even though it took me several extra years, I just graduated with my Bachelors of education. With the content area of math and science grades four through eight, December 2020,
 
Rodney Olsen 
You finally got that graduation that you were looking for all those years, when we go back and look at those years where it was a struggle for you to have that college education and going between colleges, what was happening for you personally, what was happening in your personal life?
 
Everret Maxine 
Well, in 2008, I married my husband, my former husband, and we had been friends, since I was 12, the marriage was rather difficult, and I'll say on both ends, you know, Women liked to bash the men but we both had issues coming into the marriage. And so I thought that, you know, it was gonna just be this great relationship, because we had lived together before. And we had a lot of financial struggles. And so somewhere in there, he says, you know, me trying to pursue this degree was, you know, draining all our money, which really wasn't, again, I went through a relationship, just like with my mother of not having the support to pursue my degree, I put it on hold, I didn't think it would be five years because that was 2013, I decided not to pursue the degree anymore. And so when I went back to finish it, it was 2018, there was a lot of toxic discord between me and my former husband, that kind of just wore me out emotionally, because I already didn't have a good emotional foundation, and had already been through several traumas that I had not addressed that I didn't see as trauma. Because let me say this, I am from the black culture, and we don't advocate therapy and mental health awareness, and talking about your problems. We advocate, you know, pray about it, and it'll go away, or, you know, you know, don't tell anybody your secrets. And so I had literally buried a lot of that stuff in me. I've come to learn, though, when you bury that stuff it's still taking root in your life. And so I stayed in the marriage for 10 years, we were together almost 20. Before I finally said, I had had enough that it was time to let it go. From January of 2017. Until the end of last year, I was in therapy, learning whoever it is, it was quite an experience. Now I know how much damage not only that I was doing to myself, but also to him for going into a marriage and having unhealed wounds.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I've spoken to a number of people about the fact that so often we don't actually know what is normal when we're in a situation that is so outside what we would see as normal. We don't see it as such, because it's all we know was that a bit of the case for you that really, as far as marriage and relationships went you hadn't had that modeled and so you were just doing what you thought you should do
 
Everret Maxine 
With my parents, their marriage, even though they were close knit, they were always together. Like when they'd have arguments yelling and screaming was normal. When me and my former husband would get into it, yelling and screaming was normal, me throwing something in breaking something was normal, saying degrading things to each other, you know, to tear each other down. That was my normal. And so I didn't see anything wrong with that. People reproduce what they see.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And you had that difficulty of all these traumas backing up, and then just trying to act in the best way that you knew how you've already mentioned that you went into therapy. Did that start to turn the lights on for you to start to realize, aha, there is a different way of dealing with some of this drama?
 
Everret Maxine 
Oh, absolutely. There'll be took me to places I had never experienced it was nothing like I thought it would be it was with a Christian therapist. So I thought, Oh, she's going to tell them about Jesus loves you, blah, blah, throw some scriptures at me, and I'm not going to feel any type of way. But our first session was she dug into the sexual assault. That to me, you know, I just met this person, I don't know this person. And I'm like, Oh, that's what she wants to talk about. And it took me about three months before I began actually trusting her enough to open up and it was like layers were coming off. Because I learned that the mother is the foundation. And so because our relationship wasn't solid, and then we She got married, it was like, okay, I've never felt like I was first in your life. And then now here you are, you've married somebody and made him first. I don't have anybody. So then I get married, thinking this person is supposed to put me first. And when I felt like it was some disconnect, or he was putting me first, I just completely lost it. And sometimes it wasn't even the case. But I had all those insecurities that I didn't feel like I was somebodies priority.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So this whole time, there's this insecurity built right through your, your childhood. And again, that that teaching or that prevailing culture that says, We don't talk about our issues, we just stuffed them down. How was faith for you at this stage? Was that something you were still able to cling on to? Were you still able to reach out to God during this time? Or was this a time apart from him?
 
Everret Maxine 
In the marriage, we had stopped attending church after about the first five years into the marriage, there was some issues going on at the church we were at. So we had stopped going. In our own minds, we kind of just felt like we were okay. We would, you know, go gambling, we had loss of employment. We were kind of just as people say, doing me just living our own life. Now, as far as the miracles that God could do. I was believing he could turn things around. Because I believe it was about in 2004 that my mother who I said had the alcohol addiction. She collapsed at home and had been sick for some while but we thought it just was a regular chest call. And she collapsed and was life flighted, and was in the hospital for a month. For the first week in the hospital, she was comatose, the doctors didn't believe she was survive. And on the eighth day, she woke up and she gave me a call. She was in a state of paralysis. She had to learn to walk again. But her desire to drink and smoke she no longer had in my adulthood, I had a better relationship with her. And I had a better view of how God could change things. So my hope that God could change things was still there. But my desire to go to church to seek His word was not
 
Rodney Olsen 
What changed that for you. Because I know that you very much cling to God now what turned you around to face him and cling more tightly to him
 
Everret Maxine 
in 2014, my aunt Amanda, one of my mom's sisters, she suddenly passed away, out of nowhere in March of 2014. And I was at work when that happened. Fast forward to July of 2014, my father then passed my mom's husband going through that, it was just like, golly, these people were gone. And I need to do something to get myself in alignment with God. Because all my father asked for during his final days was his Bible. 2016, I lose another off. And in that same year was the year me and my husband separated. I had kind of felt like a huge disconnect from him. And it was it just seems like we were going in the same circles, no progress. And so I had started 2016, a lady that I was very close to Miss Mary Jane. She was in her 80s when she passed away. And her and I were good friends. She was also my us matron Teresa's mother. So we reconnected after about 15 years later. So I spent a lot of time at her home. And so I had time to separate myself from the things that were going on in my household. And I could see that this isn't good. And so she invited me to church. And so for a little while I didn't you know, accept the invitation. And then I finally started going. And as I started going and getting the word me again, and hearing the pastor preach, it felt like she was preaching to my situations. And one of the things that she said was that God changes people, you're going to wear yourself out trying to force people to change. My former husband had told me a number of things that he didn't want, he didn't care to do. And it was like I was still trying to force him to change and trying to force him to change. I was forcing myself to be unhappy. And so I finally got to a place in my life where when he walked out in my of my life in 2016 I was like this is gonna be the last time Because he had walked out in my life before, and I would beg him back or I would want the marriage to work, being a believer in Christ, and caring too much about what other people thought I would keep getting back in this marriage because I didn't want to fail. And I was afraid to fail, no matter how much damage it did to me emotionally.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I know that as you came closer to God, that that was maybe preparing you for some more difficulties that were coming your way and losing someone very close to you.
 
Everret Maxine 
I gave it a couple of years, because I don't believe in immediately running to divorce. Two years down the road, I'm now establishing myself to be an adult on my own, because I had never lived on my own. In 2018 May 28, my grandmother, Roxy, she took her final breath. And it was the five year anniversary of her brothers passing. And my grandma, Roxy was my grandma by marriage, but she was still my grandma. We went to her bedside. And at her bedside, my mom was talking about when she had an asthma attack at work. And so me and my my brother, like you didn't mention that. And so she says, Oh, I don't tell y'all everything. And for some reason, it hit me in my gut that if my mother ever passed away, that would be what happened to her. So on that day, before we went to go see my grandmother at the nursing home, I tell my mom about the therapy, because here I've been in therapy over a year now. And I've never mentioned it to her because I didn't know what her take of it was going to be. And when I told her about the therapy, she said, I'm so glad you have somebody to talk to the Sunday, June 17. It was Father's Day. And I had a video that I was going to show my mom sent to my mom that I had of her standing at her husband's bedside during his final moments. But I said, If she's not thinking about him, I'm not going to upset her. And so late that night, it was about 11 o'clock till 11 o'clock that night. I just had this urge to go and be my mom. I'm crying, carrying on. And now I've moved out of town an hour and a half away. So I drive back home. I parked in the driveway. And I told my friend Theresa, I said, I'm going to sit here because I don't know why. But I'm crying for my mom. But sitting in their driveway was a little creepy. So I drove up to some family's property and just sat there. And then I drove home. Once my spirit got calm, I drove home, and I prayed. And I was praying over myself. For no thoughts of depression, no thoughts of suicide, just and I'm like, why am I praying like this? Well, Tuesday morning, I got a phone call as I'm going into therapy. It was my mom's job. And they said, Everret, please go check on your mother. She hasn't been to work. She had sounded bad when she left work that Friday. That Saturday, she had called them and told them she wasn't coming in. She was sick. And I will assume she was off that Sunday and Monday. And so Tuesday when she didn't show. They knew something wasn't right. My mother never calls in sick from work. She's never no call no show. So even before anybody told me anything, I knew she was already deceased. So I didn't call the authorities. And I didn't know that the person who had called me which was an in law at the time, she had also called my husband. And he cause him and my mom so had a decent relationship. And he had called one of my cousins and they had kicked in the door. Well, nobody wanted to tell me over the phone. So when I got to town I called and I asked is she gone. Nobody wants to tell me and I said I'm okay because I already feel that she's gone. And she had been she was sitting on the couch. She had been gone a couple of days. So I really feel like that Sunday, when I pulled up and was crying her spirit was already leaving. And that was a transforming moment for me for my life. And that is where my podcast came from. The Absence of Her.
 
Rodney Olsen 
The podcast seeks to call out things in other people when they're going through dark times. And I suppose not everyone is going to have a story that is just like yours, but people will see themselves in some of those dark times. And I know that one of the things that called you to actually start reaching out and helping others with the help that God was pouring into you was a very odd dream.
 
Everret Maxine 
I have a lot of visions, but I had this dream where I was, I didn't have any clothes on. And God said naked but not ashamed. Here, I was going through the separation going through this very public time in my marriage. My grandmother had passed, my mom had passed. And people are saying, Oh, you're so strong, you're so strong, you know. And I felt like you're I am presenting this lot of people because I go through things as well. And so in him saying naked, but not ashamed, was for me to uncover the things that I had been through. And don't be ashamed of your life experiences. But share them so that other people know that, hey, somebody went through this and survived, because the same year that my mother passed away, she passed away in June, I filed divorce shortly after it was final November 5, of 2018. And so a lot of people were in shock, because they thought the marriage was so good, I thought things are so good between us. And so that's what I just been began pouring out my life experiences and things that I had been through. And I love that God used me as that vessel, because I've had responses from mainly women of things that they have been through that they've never spoke about and they're happy that I've shared, because now they know that, hey, I'm not the only one that went through this.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned before that it's very much a cultural thing for you to hide the things that are going on inside. So are you finding that those who are responding are people from your own culture in that way, who have been brought up in that same way to be told you don't go to therapy, you don't tell people what you're going through, you just stuffed inside?
 
Everret Maxine 
Yes, there are a lot majority of them are from the black culture, they are open to sharing with me, so I pray for them. And I tell God, you know, use me wisely. And I share with about my mental health experience. Um, and I share about the therapy and the benefits of it. You can't force anybody to do anything. But if you know somebody that has gone through it, you're more likely to try it and say, Hey, I see that turn that person's life around. That's just like with, you know, being a Christian, everybody's not gonna run to the church, but they were gonna look at your life and say, you know, is it doing is a relationship Christ doing something for them.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And that's the point that you're bringing people to, obviously with the podcast has had quite a number of episodes already, as you start to unpack the things that you've been through. And I'm sure that it's not just helpful for the people that are listening and who are getting in touch. But it must be really helpful for you to be able to unpack a lot of that in front of your audience.
 
Everret Maxine 
It is a very healing experience. For me, I was told at the age of 16, that I would be standing before the people talking to the people and I had not even been halfway through what I've been through now. And so now I'm at the ripe age of 40. Last year with the podcast, I began doing Her Fridays, allowing other women to share their life experiences with others. I pray about every episode is not just me rambling out at the mouth about you know, my life or something that is going on. But I want it to be a purposeful message. And so it is very healing for me to talk about what I've been through those those God moments that hey, you some five minutes like you kick life in the tail, kiddo. So hey, yeah,
 
Rodney Olsen 
And of course, with all the trauma that you've been through over those many years in various ways, we will be foolish to think that you're completely over everything now. But you're actually still going on that journey. And it must be a real benefit. For those who are listening in to know that, hey, we're on this journey together. It's not some unrealistic expectation that suddenly it's all going to fall into place, but that we can walk this journey together, but you and your listeners are together, walking towards healing towards hope,
 
Everret Maxine 
Even the women that I interview, I still try to reach out and see how they're doing. Because every day is just because I am in a place of trying to heal does not mean that my life is perfect at this point. Grief is a process, but we don't have to stay in a state of depression and state of mourning. Because that person is not here. There is purpose for your pain. That's what I tell myself. I mean, I just had a cry the other day because I missed my mom. It's a process you know, but you you get up and you find some positive things to do. You you write you exercise You realize that I am not going through this alone. And that is, you know what I want all people that believe all motherless daughters that you're not going through this alone,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Your podcast is called the Absence of Her. It's going to be very healing for a lot of people. I'm sure. If people are wanting to find that or get in touch with you, where's the easiest place for them to go?
 
Everret Maxine 
I have an Instagram which is at iamEverretmaxine. That's the same title on my Facebook page. And the podcast is located on just about any outlet, Google podcast, Spotify, I Heart Radio, Pandora. So if you just type in the Absence of Her, or if you do the hashtag, I am Everret Maxine. You can also find me
 
Rodney Olsen 
And we'll certainly put the details and links of how to get in touch with you in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet. But now people have a direct link to get in touch with you. Ever. This has been an extraordinary story that you've been telling him. And I want to thank you for your honesty and your openness in sharing this story with us. And I know that this is not the end of the story, but I know that it's going in the right direction. And I just want to say once again, thank you so much for your time with us on bleeding daylight today.
 
Everret Maxine 
Thank you for the opportunity to share.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 
 

Kash Memphis has seen more brokenness than most in his life. It was there in his upbringing, through his time in the military during overseas service, in relationships, in his body and health, even in seeking to serve God. These days he is pursuing dreams and helping others chase theirs. He’s a Christian rapper who has built his own label and coaching brand.
 
http://kodakpurple.com
https://www.facebook.com/kash.memphis
https://www.instagram.com/kingdompriest05
https://open.spotify.com/artist/4JS6JHuHiev1icOxDH13jW
https://music.apple.com/us/artist/kash-memphis/1460421161
https://www.amazon.com.au/Kodak-Purple-Kash-Memphis/dp/B08KWWZLM3
https://www.patreon.com/kodakpurple
 
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Kash Memphis has seen more brokenness than most in his life. It was there in his upbringing, through his time in the military during overseas service, in relationships, in his body and health, even in seeking to serve God.
 
These days he is pursuing dreams and helping others chase theirs.He’s a Christian rapper who has built his own label and coaching brand. I’ll introduce you in a moment.
 
Please remember to share this story with others and connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please follow Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts. It's free and it'll ensure you never miss an episode.
 
Kash Memphis describes himself as a rapper dreamer, author and creative. But for so long he dealt with feelings of rejection and just not fitting in. We'll explore his story today on bleeding daylight, and will travel through some of the twists and turns that his life has taken cash. Welcome to bleeding daylight.
 
Kash Memphis 
Hey, Rodney, thanks for having me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to start by painting a picture of your early years. What was life like for you growing up?
 
Kash Memphis 
Well, you know, when I look back early in my childhood, one of the key words that continues to come up through my mind is that of brokenness or broken, I guess the way I would describe it as more like a desert experience, the first part of my life more like the childhood, I was called to Christ at an early age when I was about 10 years old, but went back into let's say, my living situation wasn't what typical people would think is a traditional church family, brokenness, as a child brokenness as a teenager and early adulthood.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you have this experience of church, but your home life doesn't reflect that tell me a bit about that home life,
 
Kash Memphis 
I was the first person to come to Christ and my family. I felt this calling towards God. And I almost felt as Okay, maybe I'm the one that wants this. But I kind of felt like I was still alone. I had discovered this new thing, this newfound freedom, this newfound peace, I'm newly found in Christ, but I go back into this environment. There's a seed planted, but it's almost as if it's a dormant seed.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what about the sort of neighborhood you are growing up in? What was that like for you.
 
Kash Memphis 
Growing up, it was more like a rural neighborhood, and a tri regional area in West Virginia, Virginia, and Maryland area, so very rural, and very mixed nature. It wasn't a town where it was majority of white people or black people, it was very, culturally different, ethnically different. In that I found myself growing up in a childhood that was ethnically challenging, I felt is almost almost as if like, I didn't fit in with my own people. I felt like I fit in more with other races than my own, not just one race. But I almost felt at that sense, like I had been adopted by the king. And I really, truly hadn't understood who I had been adopted by. So I wasn't really accepted by one sense of one group versus the other. It was almost as if I was a lost sheep, trying to discover myself.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And as part of that growing up, were you taking on elements of of the other cultures that you are now surrounded by to try and find that acceptance?
 
Kash Memphis 
Absolutely. So and I really love that you point that out Rodney, because one of the very first things that I ever took to was rap music. And I remember as I was younger, periodically, dreaming of man, because I grew up in a secular rap environment I grew up on Biggie and Tupac Shakur, and Snoop Dogg, and it wasn't very God glorifying music. So I had found an outlet and I don't think I really ever noticed it as a kid. But what I identified with rap music was the struggle, the acceptance, the cultural nature of it. So ideally, when I'm looking at these cultures, I'm seeing their struggle to so that at some point probably played a huge part in my life as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So rather than identifying with a lot of the themes that they were bringing forward, it was more identifying with that sense of struggle that they will portray.
 
Kash Memphis 
Absolutely, because I think where where I really struggled was for a lot of different cultures. Now, American culture is not necessarily this way anymore. But in other cultures, they were more let's say friendly to their, their elders, you know, there was still a communal guideline. And it was a way that different cultures operated. Part of me fell in love with that culture because they felt like they really loved their own people. And maybe I was asking the question of why didn't my people love me the same way?
 
Rodney Olsen 
We fast forward a little bit and as a young adult, you join the army was that again, a part Trying to find that acceptance to be part of a movement, so to speak, where you felt that you might fit in?
 
Kash Memphis 
Yeah. And you know, it's it's interesting how life happens, isn't it? You know how God uses us and shapes us. And we don't even really know the full grasp to that, after I'd come out of my school age years, and it was I didn't have these influences by these other cultures, what it kind of did was carried over and for me, I no longer had that influence. So I was trying to take that influence of my family, my dad, my brother, my mother, and then that was kind of my influence to join the military, because what other hope do I have in life?
 
Rodney Olsen 
So what happened during that experience in the army? Did that turn out to be the saviour that you were looking for in that acceptance or was it something different?
 
Kash Memphis 
I would really like to say that it was the greatest experience ever, it wasn't. But what I will say it was the most important experience in my life ever. And here's why I want you to picture a young 20 year old man who's grown, used to a life of brokenness. And then as I'm joining the military, and I'm feeling like maybe I should do what my family did, and, you know, they love to serve their country, or for whatever reason, in the back of my mind, I had this idea that I would go serve my country. And I had this idea that I would be a better person because of it. As I joined the military, I was still a Christian, not really, living the lifestyle that God requires of me, as I got into the military, it wasn't spiritually the nicest environment. But it made me grow up, it revealed a lot of things to me, as a person. For instance, seven of the 13 years that I spent in the United States Army was spent and more as I'm going through this, now, I'm really alone, I'm at war. And, you know, I have my battle buddies, and I have my comrades, but maybe I'm not necessarily the same, because I still have this spiritual struggle. And so this 20 year old is getting ready to go off to war, he's been married, he's going off to war. And while he's at war, his wife serves him divorce papers. So it becomes a very vital point in my life, where it seems everything is crashing down. Or at war, I'm losing battle buddies. This is a whole new reality. And now, I'm getting a divorce. I've been served papers, and I'm waiting to come back to the States after the war. So the war wakes me up. God shakes my life up in that any shows me truly who I am in that time. And in that experience, while fighting the physical war, the spiritual war is just starting at this time.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And of course, being at war, you'd be seeing and experiencing things that I guess we're really not designed to see and feel and experience.
 
 
Right. And, you know, when I look back at my experience on that all of the images that it's taken years to not necessarily get rid of, but the images of maybe those who didn't return, going through survivor's guilt, going through mass casualty events and not being able to bring friends home. Ultimately, when you do end up, almost making it a career, it comes to a point where it leaves you broken, it leaves you broken from the war. Because after the war, I came back, started jumping out of airplanes, and eventually broke and destroyed my back ended up being medically retired. As I'm exiting the army, I'm exiting, physically broken, spiritually broken and at this point, it's where it takes another turn towards more brokenness.
 
Rodney Olsen 
The USA has this great tradition of honoring those who have served the country. But I guess coming back and having to be medically retired, would really be a bit of a struggle for you in knowing that you're coming from this place where people would honor to have to leave that and again, to have to find another way of fitting in.
 
Kash Memphis 
The way I equated to the army and serving in the United States Army is that we were family. My friends are the ones I fought with my family were the ones that I fought the war with, as I'm coming out of this experience and and going into this new reality. It's almost as if you lost your family, your job, you lost all sense of purpose, you've been told you physically don't meet the standard anymore, you can no longer provide your services here. So in that experience, I walked away from that, feeling jilted and empty handed. But I also ended up leaving as a drug addict.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Is that something that started to happen whilst you were still in the military? Or was this your response to having to leave the military.
 
Kash Memphis 
As I was dealing with the physical and that the army was realizing that this is a much longer term issue. And mind you, you're being dropped out of air planes repeatedly over several years. And so the back is not in the greatest. And so once it's really injured, what they began to do was at this point, pain management. And so in that point in pain management, they began to retire me. And in that process, I did not know that I had become addicted until it was too late.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So where did that addiction lead you?
 
Kash Memphis 
Well, I can tell you, for sure, Rodney, it leads nowhere good. I do remember as we were exiting the military. And as as all of this stuff is happening. There comes a point where we lose it all, financially, professionally, coming out of the military. Now it's beginning to erode the family. It became a point where God had to step in, I feel what had happened was, is that in the midst of our opioid epidemic amongst the United States, even going back several years ago, I don't think that our leaders had the proper knowledge to know that this was going to happen. And so maybe in my physical treatment, that's what did it. But nonetheless, I had a problem that I now needed God to deliver me from,
 
Rodney Olsen 
And how did that deliverance come? What What was the low point that made you turn around and see God to cause a difference in that situation?
 
Kash Memphis 
It's really interesting how God likes to intersect our lives again, because, you know, it's, it becomes a certain point in our life, where it's like, God, I need you to help me because I've done everything I can. And most of the time, it's because we have to submit to Him and allow him to do the work in us. One night, I remember going to sleep and and I was using at the time, and as a result of that, my wife had an allergic reaction for the first time, and she almost passed away, due to my negligence.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And it's at that point, you decided that this has got to stop,
 
 
I'd like to say that was true. But two nights later, I was going to bed. And in order to understand the story, we have to go back a little bit because while I was in a military, my wife, and I have miscarriage. After this, God reveals to me in this miscarriage who our daughter was in heaven. And I remember hitting this point in saying, God, I need to understand what's going on here. I need to know what you think of me. I need to know that you're there. And I remember going to bed that night, and seeing her and my dreams. And I remember waking up the next morning and saying I can't immediately fix it. But I'm running in the right direction. And it was shortly after that. God called me on to the next mission.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So where did this next mission take you?
 
Kash Memphis 
When you served in the military, and you've been medically retired and you've lived the life of brokenness, and you've had different life experiences that have brought you to where you are. The next logical point for me, that God was calling me into was pulpit ministry. So I became a pastor.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Tell me about the process of becoming a pastor coming out of this background of brokenness, to a place where you're leading others. How did that transition begin for you?
 
Kash Memphis 
Well, the transition really began for me, kind of when I was in the military, as I was getting medically retired out I had come to a point now see, I served as a chaplain assistant, the last 11 years of my career. I had decided in my military career, I wanted to be a chaplain. And so while I was in the military, I had gotten my degree and then I was approved to go to chaplain school. Well, so That was the natural path. But when I got medically retired, that plan changed, obviously. So naturally I have this degree and I'm, I'm already accredited. And I hear God calling me to being a pastor, I seen this wealth of experience and and I had a number of people around me who were doing the same thing. And it really encouraged me that I could really make a change for the kingdom from that perspective. You know, I'm like, I can really put my mark my stamp on, this is the crescendo. This is what God called me to do.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you have the opportunity to be a pastor, and this continues on for a number of years. But it doesn't continue to go, Well, what what happened in that season.
 
Kash Memphis 
At this point, I think what changes is that God has a mission for me that I truly don't understand. Because as he's calling me into the pulpit, I have this this expectation in my mind, that it's white picket fences, I'm now doing the will of God, I've got the most important job, which is leading the sheep. And it seems that from day one, when I step in the door, I mess up from day one. I guess maybe the reason that I don't know that I truly understood what a pastor was. I think I failed from that perspective. But I also didn't know what to expect, you know, so I was a young pastor, and I just left the military, I just gone through this. And from the time I became a pastor, it almost seemed as if Satan wanted to destroy me from the ground up the entire time. And when we come through some things we don't always notice when God is providing us opportunities. And so when I look in retrospect, I think about it, what could I do differently? Why didn't it go? Well, I don't think I was a good pastor, to be honest with you. I don't think I lead people well, I'd come from leading soldiers to firing bullets downrange, and church just wasn't the same. So when I walked into my first rural New York church, you know, farmland, New York, I had this idea that people were just going to support me because they, you know, the pastor was the most important person, or, you know, when when we had the commissioning, it was like, everybody loved you with open arms. But I slowly started to find out that it was hard. And then war is waged in the spiritual realm. So I learned a lot there. But if I were to, if I were to put it in a short statement, I think I was a bad pastor.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I know that as a pastor, you're often helping people to deal with their brokenness and their struggles. Did you find it difficult that in your own brokenness that you were trying to help others with their own?
 
Kash Memphis 
Yeah, because if we're not active in combing through our struggles, our doubts and our fears and our anxieties, and if we're not focused on surrendering those things, if we're not dealing with those things, then I think it's difficult to help other people deal with their brokenness. What I was doing is I wasn't necessarily addressing all my baggage too. So it's kind of difficult, you know, you want people want you to lead them. And they want you to help fix them. But at the same time, when you have two people who don't understand the work that's required, it becomes really difficult.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So a few years down the track, you leave the church, and there is that sense, once again, that you've lost everything. But then there's a turning point, tell me about what happened then.
 
Kash Memphis 
I remember exiting the church that night. And I have to admit that I didn't quite agree with where this whole thing was going. I didn't understand what God was doing. The only thing I could see was the circumstances. And I was angry. You know, God, how could this happen? How could I lose it again? Now, you know, I've lost these people that have become my church family. Now I've lost my friends. They've all turned against me. And now I feel like I have to walk my head away and shame. So I'm standing in this church parking lot. And I'm just I'm walking and I'm pacing in a circle around this parking lot. I'm angry. I don't know if I'm angry with God or if I'm angry with myself, I just kind of had this vital moment. Like when you switch the light on the severe contrast that everything that I had worked for, and it lived for what I thought I was doing right, I realized that I had become sick and tired of who I become, I become disgusted with myself. And I felt like the organizational body or the organization of the church had left me misfit, orphaned, neglected, rejected, and I have nothing but to rely on is that of God. And so in my passion, and just you know, because rap is a very aggressive form of music, whether Christian or secular, it talks about the struggle, it talks about the pain, it talks about the realness of, it strips down all the pretty curtains, and you can see everything for what it is kind of feeling. And I'm pacing the parking lot. And I just, I'm listening to instrumental rap music that I either grew up on or I start freestyling with that. And if you're not really sure what freestyling is, it's just basically sped up talking to a beat in my heart, and and then maybe my, my frustration, I said, God, I'll give you the rest of my life, I'll do whatever you want me to do, if I could just live my dream and do it for you, and you take care of my family. But that's what I want to do. And I feel like that night I got God's blessing, even in the worst time of my life. Because I truly, for the first time, found an outlet in which I could express my thoughts, not only express my thoughts, but express a way for me to say, I'm sorry, thank you a way for me to say the thing that I normally could not say, at that point in that night, I just said, God, I want to write rap music, on a rap for you, I don't even know that I'm good at. But that's what I'm gonna do the rest of my life. And I want to build this company so that, you know, I can put my music under it. And you know, I'm just, I want to live my dreams. I want to work for you the rest of my life. But I want you to just allow me to be able to have some fun with it and be creative. I'd like to rap. And God answered my prayers. That night, it may not have felt like it that night, but he did.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So in a sense, you've come full circle from being that young boy in a neighborhood where you feel you don't quite fit in, and you're turning to wrap to to try and understand the struggle. And you feel a connection there. You're now using it as a way to connect with the struggle of other people all these years later. And to turn it into something for good. Tell us where this has now taken you.
 
Kash Memphis 
Well, Rodney, that's a loaded question. And so I'd have to respond by saying this is that once, once I started down that point, and all of this starts coming together, I realize God takes me back. Right before I began writing Kodak PowerPoint, he calls me to a 40 day fast with him, you know, I'm supposed to pour my blood, sweat and tears into it. And during that time, God really opened my eyes. So spent three weeks working on my music and you know, giving him you know, 110%. And then the last week I did a traditional fasting, you know that the Bible says don't boast about it, but I'm not telling you this to boast about me. I'm telling you this to boast about God. But when I spent that time with him, one of the things he revealed to me was, he left Moses in the desert for 40 years. It took him 40 years, to prepare them to enter the promised land. You know, at this point, I'm not I wasn't even entering 40. But I was going through my read, see. And what he revealed to me is that like that little boy, in that time was that all of my life, he's allowed me to experience the brokenness of human. I mean, you know, not like him because I'm not perfect, but I really identify with broken people. And really, because of my story, because the brokenness that I walked through goes so deep. I look at it and I say, Well, God had it not been for this brokenness, what I be prepared for now. The little boy that was broken, the soldier that was broken, for the marriage that was broken, and all of the broken things. I was allowed do live my dream. As I'm living my dream, I realize it's gonna take a little bit more work. And as I'm finishing up some music during this fast, a friend calls me and I, I just finished up recording as a friend from my military days. It's interesting how it comes full circle. The chaplain that I was serving with in Afghanistan, had asked a favor of me and he said, Hey, I would really like it if you could train my chaplains and my chaplain assistants on area operations overseas, because I have had a number of years deploying and I was highly experienced, and say, Well, yeah, I'll go ahead and help you. So after this is done, he knows of what I'm doing. He says, Would it be helpful if I get our unit to write a memo for you so that, you know, we can just express that you're professional, that things that you did, maybe that'll help you down the road? So well, Steve, that would be okay. So Steve calls me the next day. phone's ringing. I'm like, yo, what's good, Steve? He's like, hey, there's a change of plans, man. I thought we had two weeks. But I need you to do it today. And so that I was flexible. I said, no issues, Dave, I can I can get you there. So I do the training. And afterwards, he he's sending the memo over from the military. And what's really interesting about this military memo, is that when it comes to military memo, it's almost like its own language. And so it's very guided, it's very directed. But there was five bullet points on this memo. And while the other four are important, they're not as important as the fifth point. So I'm reading the memo. And I get down to this final point. And this is the part in my life, where I realize I should start taking my dreams a whole lot more seriously. Because God found a way to intersect with me to prove he is faithful to prove he is just because that last bullet point on that memo, would have never appeared on military memo. But it says, we recommend Brian Havens my real name, or we recommend Kash Memphis, for whatever he wants to do. And in that moment, God just invaded my heart, with love. And with an understanding, I thought, I have life. But to bring it full circle. It's like I felt like this is part of a releasing point where he confirms everything that I've been dreaming of and been working towards,
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're now are running your own label. And you're also working with other people to help them release their dreams. Tell us about that experience for you.
 
Kash Memphis 
When I started this dream, I had the idea in my mind that the company would be named missiology. And that is the case. But when we, when I started that dream, in missiology basically means living on mission. You know, whatever you're doing, just as, you know, you can use that for kingdom. It's a missiological lifestyle. But what we're doing by that is the idea is that I started living my dreams when God called me to when he called me to them. And so it is my belief that when I walked into that mission, I wasn't only doing it for me. But I was doing it with the expectation that missiology his mission would be to awaken dreamers and sleepers to live out their kingdom purpose, and then provide them a roadmap to accomplish it. As we talk now. That's actually our reality. The first of the year, I started up my coaching program, that means I'm coaching people to live out their dreams. I'm coaching people, to have a little bit of fortitude, to push into their kingdom purpose, to seize the opportunity that God's called them to. Because while he says in Scripture, in these days, he will pour out visions and dreams on his on his people. I think the part that we don't acknowledge when we read that is that we're responsible for those dreams and we'll be rewarded for living them. So I've dedicated my life to living for Jesus while I predominantly write and perform rap music wherever anyone will have me but part of getting people to live their dream is also being able to lead from the front. And so that's what we're doing through coaching Through the many other things we do in this theology,
 
Rodney Olsen 
What has been the reaction to your music? You're talking about struggle through that and struggles that you faced? Are you getting feedback from people that it's actually helping them to deal with their own struggles?
 
Kash Memphis 
Absolutely. Let me give you an example. My music is played in 62 different countries, the response that I'm getting is phenomenal. A friend of mine from the military sent me a message the other day and said, Hey, man, I love what you're doing, I appreciate you, you are going to be able to go places no one else can go. And the reason I share that is because God is providing me opportunities that I never thought I would be in position to be here had I not start chasing my dream, had I not start living out what I felt God had purposed me for.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's a real different change to this young man that we heard about at first. And I'm sure that life still has its struggles, it has its ups and downs. But knowing that you're living this dream, obviously makes a big difference in your life.
 
Kash Memphis 
It does, it does. And you know, even as I sit here, and I'm talking to you, I just have the relative sense that that God still wants to do more. It's a sense of being found in being surrendered in my purpose. It's not so much anymore, that I'm unhappy with me, and I'm unhappy with where I'm at. Now, I've focused on my relationship with Jesus, I've allowed him to guide me in love instead of walking away in bitterness and that's been really formative, but to see where I'm standing now, and then look back at all the little places where he gave me like GPS, turn left here, do this, it really gives me the sense that, Papa, you love me. And when you say you died for me, you weren't just joking. When you say, you, you've got dreams, and you've got plans for me better than I could ever understand. I take you serious. I now feel like I did when I was once 10 years old. When I walked up, and I received Christ at this Baptist camp, this church camp that day that God called me when I was 10 years old. I felt as if I could walk into my purpose, with my head held high. Knowing God's sent me with authority.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Your music is available through Apple Music through Spotify, and all sorts of other places if people want to track that down. But if people are wanting to find out more about you to get in touch, what's the easiest thing for them to do?
 
Kash Memphis 
The easiest way to get in touch with me Rodney would be either through social media, kodakpurple.com is up. That would be the primary way right there. So if you if you can't reach me there, contact me through social media and I'll be sure to return every contact.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I'll put some contact details in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet so that people can get in touch and and hear more of your story. But cash Memphis, it has been so good to talk to you. Thank you for sharing some of your story, where God has brought you from and is taking you to and we look forward to hearing more about you in the future. Thank you for your time.
 
Kash Memphis 
Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure and a blessing man.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 
 
 

Depression, anxiety, fear, pain, shame, failure, feeling not enough, even wanting to leave this world. These are all things that Caris Snider has experienced. Whether you’ve encountered any of these feelings, or you’re wanting to know how to help someone who has, you’ll find hope and encouragement in today’s episode of Bleeding Daylight.
 
https://carissnider.com/
https://carissnider.com/blog/
https://www.facebook.com/conversationswithcaris/
https://www.instagram.com/carissnider/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCntkMeezDEUqspk3UEkW-5A
https://www.pinterest.com/carissnider/
https://twitter.com/caris_snider
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Depression, anxiety, fear, pain, shame, failure, feeling not enough, even wanting to leave this world. These are all things that today’s guest has experienced. Whether you’ve encountered any of these feelings, or you’re wanting to know how to help someone you know, you’ll find hope and encouragement in today’s episode.
 
Please remember to share this story with others and connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please follow Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts. It's free and it'll ensure you never miss an episode.If we're honest, most of us have some kind of disconnect between our personal inner world and the person that the world sees. But for today's guest, it was like a gaping chasm. Caris Snider seemed to have it all together. She was a wife, mum, friend and worship leader. Unfortunately, below the surface, things were quite different. Caris was hiding a secret, even from those closest to her and today we'll lift the lid on that secret and discover the turnaround that not only helped her, but that has allowed her to help others. Caris is the author of the book Anxiety Elephants and I'm very pleased that she's joining us today on Bleeding Daylight. Thank you for your time.
 
Caris Snider 
Thank you, Rodney, for having me today.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to explore the anxiety elephants that you referenced in the title to your book. But first, let's go back to before the elephants arrived, what did life look like for you?
 
Caris Snider 
Well, life appeared to be wonderful for me, my husband and I, we were business owners, we had a daughter at the time who was two years old, and everything appeared to be great for us. We had lots of friends around us. And he even thought that I was this strong, Wonder Woman, if you will type woman. And I was terrified to show people what I was dealing with inside.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what were some of the things that you were dealing with in your inner world,
 
Caris Snider 
I was dealing with this need to be perfect, if you will, I was terrified that if people knew that I wasn't perfect, that I didn't have it all together, that I was a failure, that I was terrified of failure, and that I had lived with fear and rejection for much of my life. I was scared if I let them into those real pieces of who I was that they would no longer accept me that I would no longer be needed in my church that that even God wouldn't want to use me anymore because I wasn't this perfect person that I was portraying and I really just felt broken. I felt ashamedn and I just felt less than, really,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Where do you believe these feelings started to come from? Obviously, this is something that started way back before this supposedly perfect looking life. Where did all that begin for you?
 
Caris Snider 
Yeah, Rodney, that is a great question. And I honestly believe this all started for me when I was a child, I can go back and I can remember being in school in first grade for me. And I remember, a little boy who lived in my neighborhood with his family lived there. My twin brother and I, we all lived in this neighborhood. We all went to church together. It was a very small, close knit town. And one day he gathered our entire first grade class around me. And he began to make fun of me because I was born with a mild form of cerebral palsy in my left side, and I had no idea until that day that my body was physically different from everyone else. My my parents didn't treat me any different. None of my extended family looked at me differently. They they loved me. And they never called out to me that my arm was held up all the time or that I walked with a lamp. I didn't know until I was six years old. And this little boy gathered our class around us and he looked at me and he said Caris, why do you look like that? Why do you look like a bunny rabbit. And he held both of his arms up the way that I held my left arm up. And I'm in my 30s. And I can still picture this moment. And he began to hop around me like a bunny rabbit. And the entire class was laughing with him and laughing at me, and to choke the tears back to choke back the hurt and the pain that he caused. I laughed with them and I remember going home that day and I did something that I began to do throughout the rest of my life until I dealt with anxiety and depression. And what I did was, I told no one, I hid it. I didn't tell my parents, I didn't tell my teacher. I didn't tell my brothers because I was scared of what would come out of me sharing this rejection sharing this pain. So early on in my life, the way I learned to cope with the pain and hurt and rejection was to hide it to push it down and to become the master of the mask to find ways to hide my weaknesses to find ways to not be called out in the crowd again, because that moment, that rejection felt awful. It was just a terrible feeling. And it all began for me as a young child.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So there's this one instance that you remember very clearly, in that that place playground did that teasing go on from there was this a case of once this boy has highlighted it to the rest of the class that they was teasing that continue to go on from that point,
 
Caris Snider 
He did not tease me from that point. But throughout the rest of my grade school years, they were the other boys and other girls who would bring up different things to call out different weaknesses that they would be able to find, you know, we all can run into people that bring those things out to us in different ways. And so in those moments, I can remember even in fifth grade, a boy would make fun of the way that I talked, and he just like to pick on me and I began to have symptoms of anxiety, my heart would be racing, my breathing would feel very breathless, I would have migraines. And we had no idea what was going on in my body. Because in that time, in those years, we really didn't talk about anxiety, often, and we didn't really put a name to it. So I didn't know what was going on. And then, you know, as teenagers, we all deal with different moments in our teenage years. So I had those different moments that were kind of markers, I like to say, throughout my young adult life, my childhood life that kind of created these coping skills of not coping these skills of hide it, the whole, fake it till you make it thing,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Then we fast forward. And you've mentioned that you're married. And at this stage, you also have a daughter, and wondering about even in those courting days with your husband, and we know what that's like, where we express our love for each other. And I'm sure that your husband is saying, You're beautiful. Was there something inside you thinking? Yeah, but only if you knew?
 
Caris Snider 
Yes, there really was because I was terrified. If you know, if you know, the fears that I have, if you know these weaknesses, that I have, will you love me for who I am? Will you accept me, for who I am, it was funny, actually, when we met, Rodney, he was in a Christian boy band. And so they danced around and they sang, and he had all these girls that love to follow him and, and wanted his autograph and, and oftentimes I can remember I would find my way, kind of shrinking in the background, because I just didn't feel like I was as good as they were, I didn't feel worthy of his love, if you will. And so I can remember having those moments throughout our, our dating Season of Our relationship before we did get engaged and get married. But I would I would lie in the bed at night and wonder what is it about me, you know, if he would really love the real me, if I if I let him see that. Even after we got married, I was still this strong woman who, who went for it, who strove, you know, for, for perfection and to be the best of the best. Because, you know, all these other instances in my life where I had rejection, I thought if I show him, this part of me, will he reject me, as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So at the same time, as you're getting involved in something that's quite wonderful, there's this fear in the back of your mind that it's all on a precipice, and it could tip over at any moment,
 
Caris Snider 
At any moment. And that is so much pressure and young person's life, I think about even young people right now the pressure that they're under, you know, and I remember that with work and with family and, and these new relationships, and that pressure was mounting. And I had convinced myself that no one can know, no one can know about this pressure, no one can know about these weaknesses. And that I had to keep it all to myself, keep all the burden, all the pain, all the broken pieces, try to carry that in my own hands, and my own arms all by myself.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Did you have any inkling that there is this kind of disconnect to a smaller or larger degree in most people's lives? Or was this just something that because you were stuffing it down? You felt I'm the only one on alone in this?
 
Caris Snider 
Yeah, that you You said it, I truly believed that I was the only person dealing with all of these broken things because I looked at everyone else. I saw everyone else smiling. I saw everyone else laughing and having a good time. And it never clicked to me that maybe they're struggling too. Maybe they are going through a hard time too. And I will be honest with you and tell you that I grew up in even into my college years thinking that anxiety and depression that those things were not real. I honestly thought that if you said you dealt with anxiety and depression, that you were feeling sorry for yourself that you were just wanting attention, and that these things were just made up. And I really did not realize how real and how much of a burden those things Until I began to deal with those things, and I would even have people come to me and ask me for advice and for encouragement or, or asked me to pray for them, you know, to ask God to help them deal with with what they're going through mentally. And I would tell them, unfortunately, I would say to them things like, well, you just need to try harder. You just need to pray harder, you just need to trust God more. And I had no idea that I was causing more hurt. And I was causing more shame and pain, to fill their hearts and minds when I was telling them those things because it was not responding to them with the compassion that Jesus would have responded with.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And at the same time, as you're telling them to try harder to pray harder, that these things don't really exist. you're experiencing this yourself but not realizing it.
 
Caris Snider 
That's exactly right. I remember when I began to experience for me personally, it was anxiety first. And I remember that I began to have these panic attacks, but I didn't know it was panic attacks, what it felt like to me is that my heart was beating out of my chest, and it would not stop and it felt like these elephants were sitting on my chest, and the harder I pushed to get these elephants off to get this pain off, the harder my heart would be, and then my breathing, I would feel breathless, and I would feel dizzy. And I had no idea that this was an anxiety attack, I was having a thought I was dying. And I would do I dealt with this for several months, I again, I'm still operating under these coping skills of don't tell anybody. And I sat on my couch one day in my house, and my daughter was playing with her toys. And it was just her and I at home, and my heart begin to race like I had never felt before. And I was terrified. I was paralyzed in fear. And my heart was beating, I couldn't breathe, I felt dizzy. And the only thing that I needed to do in that moment was to call my mother and she was a safe person for me a safe place for me, I called my mother. And she told me, Caris, you need to go to the doctor right now. I think you're having an anxiety attack, you need to go to the doctor. And I wanted to argue with my mother, but I knew even then you don't argue with your mother. I did what she asked me to do. And I took my daughter with me. And I remember in that moment, that brokenness and that anxiety, it just kind of overwhelmed me. And I would I looked at the nurses as they hooked me up to these machines, to check my heart and to make sure that everything was okay. And I looked at them, and I began to say to them, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you're having to deal with this, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm causing you to have to work this extra hard, you know, your day, I'm sorry, that I'm a burden that began to come out of my mouth. And, you know, those nurses reminded me that they were there to help me, that was kind of the first seed of allowing people in to help and, and they begin to help me and the doctor came in and, and he said, Caris, you know, your heart is fine, you're having an anxiety attack. And I was still in this denial stage of his anxiety really real, you know, and I kind of wanted to argue with a doctor, but I told him, You know, I was good, I was fine, I was gonna be okay. And I left that day, not allowing him to help me not, you know, taking medication, not talking to a counselor, trying to still figure it out on my own, and then doing that, for me, the anxiety now moved into depression.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Tell us about some of the steps that you were taking at this stage, you say that you want it to be perfect. You You want it to present, this amazing woman that you didn't really feel that you were, what were some of the things that you were doing to try and project that image? And how are you dealing with that within your own body?
 
Caris Snider 
Some things that I was doing to project this image of perfection is I was focusing on the outside, what can I do to my physical appearance to make people think that I was okay and that I had it all together. And so what I did is I begin to exercise a lot. I exercise at least two hours every day, I was lifting weights that I had no business lifting, it was probably upwards of 10 pound weights. And I was eating less than 1000 calories a day. So I was not eating very much because I was again just trying to make my body look perfect. I was drinking three to four gallons of water a day, way too much water and I was starving myself. I was doing it to show this image of perfection but I was also doing it trying to starve the pain of the anxiety and the depression and the shame that I felt, and in doing that my body dropped down to almost 100 pounds. I looked like a skeleton because this weight of perfection, this need to, to have it all together was just beginning to to wear wear me down and wear me out. And at this time,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Were there any warning bells for your husband as he's seeing this? Or was he just believing that you wanting to be fit, and that you are wanting to get into the shape that you want it to be?
 
Caris Snider 
There were some warning bells for him, he noticed that I would go away into our bedroom and just, that's where I would work out and I would disappear for hours. You know, I wasn't with him or with my daughter very much. I was isolating myself away. I was isolating myself away from church from our friends. Whenever we would lead worship, I would always find a reason to have to leave quickly, to not stay and be around people. So then I wouldn't have to talk to anyone about what I was dealing with. He began to notice that and even we were going to the beach. This was my daughter's very first trip to the beach as a toddler and I cried, I cried the whole way there. I cried while we were there. Because these these thoughts, these what ifs that anxiety was plaguing me with. What if she drowns? What if we have a wreck? What if something happens to our house while we're going I was just played with these irrational fears? And he began to ask me, you know, Caris, are you okay? Curious What's wrong, I can remember telling him that I really didn't know what was wrong. But I remember asking him, please don't give up on me. I know that. This is not like me, I know that this is things that we've never gone through. But please don't give up on me. And he really didn't know how to respond. But he knew that in that moment, I just needed him to be there for me, he didn't have to have all the answers. He didn't have to know how to fix it. I just needed to know that in that moment. As this truth were being revealed as these things that I was dealing with this anxiety and depression, as I begin to talk to him about it slowly reveal it to him, that he wasn't going to leave me that he wasn't going to turn his back on me. And that was the biggest thing. So he did notice that I was isolating, he did notice that I was very particular and what I would eat, I would only eat certain things that I made, that I didn't want to go eat at restaurants anymore. And he just began to kind of see these red flags, he didn't really quite know what to do. So he didn't try to do anything, he just wanted to make sure that I knew that he was there. And that, that there was no way that he was going to leave me behind
 
Rodney Olsen 
The fears, the doubts, the anxiety, has stopped just being about you. You're projecting that onto others. Now you're thinking, what happens if my daughter drowns at the beach? What happens if the car's in a wreck. So it's starting to explode at this stage, isn't it?
 
Caris Snider 
it was exploding and that depression began to turn into dread, dread to get up and face the day dread of what if I caused, you know, hurt or pain on my daughter or my husband, you know, I'm beginning to think these things that depression tells you that you're a burden, that you're worthless, hopeless, useless and purposeless. And, and this would just begin to just wear on me day after day after day. And in the midst of all of this hurt, all this pain, all of the shame, we find out that I'm pregnant, and we could not believe that I was pregnant. And so I remember going to my doctor and and she was checking everything out. And she was you know, she's heard the baby's heartbeat and, and she said, you know, cares, the baby right now is healthy, but but for the sake of the baby, and for the sake of your health, you know, you need to eat, it's okay, if you eat cake, or you eat sweets or donuts for breakfast, lunch and dinner, we just need you to eat to put something into your body. And so that was something that did trigger in me to help me Stop starving myself. Because I knew for the sake of that baby, I needed to eat something. So that did help help me in doing that in over a course of about eight weeks. I gained six pounds, which was a huge deal for me that was a big victory because I was not eating very much before that. But also at the end of that eight weeks I lost that baby. And that was the rock bottom for me having that miscarriage and seeing that little life disappear. And so now I'm beginning to hear you see what you did see how you You brought hurt onto that child onto that life. You know, you're not needed here. This world will be better off without you. So now I am pushing down deeper into these thoughts of, well, maybe I do need to leave this earth and suicide, suicidal thoughts began to become real. And that scared me to see myself go that far but to realize how real anxiety and depression and shame and suicide is and how so many people are out there struggling with that thinking just like idea that they're alone and that there's no hope,
 
Rodney Olsen 
All this time you're you're heading towards this moment where you finally must admit that you need help. But you are living within a faith community, you're part of a church. And obviously, part of the teaching of the Scriptures is that were accepted no matter who we are, and what we like, why do you think it's so difficult for many, even within the church, to take those sort of scriptures to heart? Why is there such a difficulty for us to assimilate what we read about this God who loves us unconditionally? With who we are? Why is there that disconnect?
 
Caris Snider 
I have been asking that question for a while now. And I think it's a really powerful one. I think sometimes, you know, and I know, this is my opinion, I think sometimes we as the church and in the faith community, sometimes when we don't know how to deal with things, we just pretend like they're not there. And we, for a while there has been this disconnect between faith and mental health. And like you said, the scriptures tells us, you know, how God loves us. And he came, you know, he sent his son for the sick, and the hurting. And the scriptures even tell us that in this world, you will have trouble. And I think sometimes we get this thought in our head that that means everyone but us. And in actuality, it doesn't. It includes us. And what I found is in that moment, and that rock bottom moment for me, God was there. He was there with me in that pit. And just as he says, You know, I will never leave you, I will never forsake you. And in that moment, it was a two questions were there it was a you can look up, or you can give up. And it was like, God just kind of helped lift my head. And when I looked up, he helped me to see that they were helpers there that the church, the body of Christ was there to help me. And not only was my church there, my fame, my church family there, but he had a counselor there for me, who worked within faith and worked within the scriptures to help me. He had my doctor there who was helping bring those hormones and those things that were in my body out of balance, putting it back in, and my family was there. And my friends that I went to church with, they were there, and they loved me and they cared for me and all this time thinking, you know, if you tell, they're going to turn their back on you, that was revealed to be a lie. And you know, Galatians 6:2 tells us that we are to bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. And so God's word began to be real in my life. And I began to see Wait a minute, there is Grace is is real. And when Christ died for us, it was with grace that he came knowing that we couldn't get through this life without him there was going to be no way. And that began to lift this need for perfection off and allowed God's true grace to come in. And I'll never forget, as I was beginning to learn what grace really was, and to learn about bearing one another's burdens and taking off this mask of this need to have it all together. I was sitting with a friend and our daughters were playing. And she asked me how I was doing. And I told her, I said, you know what I'm not. Today is not a good day, I've been battling with depression and anxiety. And I'm working through that. And my friend looked at me, and I could see relief, kind of feel her shoulders, and she just relaxed a little bit. And she looked at me and she said, You too? And I looked at her and we both had tears in her eyes. And I said, Yes, me too. And, and in that moment, it was as if God was showing me this is what what this is about. This is what I want. My Church. This is what I want the body of Christ to do share one another's burdens. And in doing that, it allows his hope to begin to come in because we realize we don't have to be perfect. to work together. We don't have to be perfect to go out and be used by God because He works through our weaknesses. When we're weak, then that is when he can be strong and that was in a moment a shifting for me. When God began to restore me and help me to see that in my weaknesses that's where the world can see his hope.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm interested in the difference between, that scary time of having to admit, I need help. And the time just after that, once you finally told others, this is what I'm going through and the relief that must have come from that. Can you contrast those for us?
 
Caris Snider 
Yes, I can think back on that when I had to admit and acknowledge that I had a problem. And I needed help. And I remember in that moment, I did that with my head held down, not wanting to look anyone in the eyes, not wanting to see if they really were going to walk away. And you know, even in that moment, having my heart practically beat out of my chest. And it was a moment filled with beer kind of a moment that I was faced with, will the lies be real? Or will they proved to not be true. And it was a moment where those lies were proved not to be true. And I just needed that one moment to admit my struggle to admit my problem. And to face it. And once I face that fear, and realized that they were still there, that they loved me, it began to become easier. As I shared with my friend and talk with her, it was kind of like a aha moment, when not when we talked about it. As a more people need this more people need to know that there's freedom, in being vulnerable, there's freedom in telling what's going on inside of you. And in doing that, that's when God could begin to really bring that restoration in that healing into my life, because he couldn't heal any of that, if I wasn't willing to admit that I needed that healing. And so as I began to talk to my friends, and even share with others, it allowed us to kind of go through that journey together. And to truly realize, hey, we're not alone. We're not alone in this, there's actually millions of us going through this right now. And the more that we share our stories with each other, and the more we can say, hey, me, too, not only can we have that moment in our struggle in our pain, but we can have that moment together in our healing. And in our restoration, and in living our life in a new way.
 
Rodney Olsen 
What did it do for your relationships, when you were finally able to bring the real up to the table? I'm interested, especially for you and your husband, how did that start to grow your relationship,
 
Caris Snider 
It allowed us to, to laugh more, to enjoy life more, it helped me to see that I didn't have to be perfect around him that it was okay for me to mess up. And it was okay for him to mess up, you know, I could take that, that need of perfection off of everyone else. So it really kind of brought relief around our household, it brought relief into our marriage. And it allowed us in our ministry, to really work together more in a way where where it was God's grace operating, you know, that gift of not needing to be perfect, allowing him him to work through us. And so, you know, I can remember that, that we could now go out on dates, and we could laugh, or we could be silly, or we could talk about things that I had questions about that I didn't know if they were true or not. And we could have good honest conversation. And it was like we kind of got to know each other in a brand new way, if you will.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm interested in the journey from there, you're talking about going through this healing process. And I'm sure that there are still good days and bad days. But what was some of the steps that you actually talk to get into a healthier place?
 
Caris Snider 
Right. So those steps, I like to call them. action steps were very important for me, a couple of those things, first of all, was seeking help from a counselor and going and talking to a counselor, which was something that I struggled with for a little while. And I didn't understand how a counselor could be so helpful. But in doing that it allowed me to talk about things that I was dealing with, it allowed me to go back to my childhood and see that that was kind of where the root of everything began for me. So having that counselor to allow me to share freely, with no judgment, and to just kind of explore and discover these things. That was a big action step for me receiving help from my doctor. That was really important as well. You know, she posed the question to me if you had heart disease, and I offered medication to you to help you with a heart disease, would you take it? And I told her Yes, I absolutely would. And so, and needing that medication to get my brain and those hormones back in order. That's what she was trying to help me to see this medication is helping your brain just like medication would for your heart if you had heart disease, and so that was an important step to take that into into help me get out of that fog and get back in balance. Some other things that were helpful was being around community, being around friends no longer isolating myself no longer living in loneliness. And so I would allow women into my life where we could be real and honest with each other and have that community that we were meant to have to bear one another's burdens my family, letting you know, again, leaning on my husband letting him be that supporter for me, knowing that I didn't have to be this strong and mighty person that he loved me even in my weaknesses and to know that our weaknesses partner together and allowed us to have our marriage and work together. That was important. Also, I think what was really important for me was really diving into God's word and seeing Okay, okay, God, what do you say about fear? What do you say, about anxiety? What do you say about different things that I was dealing with in my life and to really get in the Scripture, and to write it down, and to begin to hide his word in my heart, you know, and to know that he was with me. And in doing that, I even found Psalm 94:19. When anxiety is great within me, your comfort, brings me joy. So claiming to scriptures like that, that was important. Also, I began to journal and write down my thoughts, write down those negative things that was in my mind to get them out. And then I would replace it, I would take those thoughts captive and replace those thoughts, with like, giving thoughts with Scripture or with, you know, positive affirmations about myself. And then even having an attitude of gratitude. I even heard on a snippet of your podcast with Terry Nightingale, how he was talking about gratitude, when we give that thanks to God, right, it allows the Holy Spirit to invade that space. So I began to learn that power of gratitude and thanking God for every good thing in my life, knowing that all those good things came from him and that began to help me to not focus on the negative things and help me to keep my eyes focused on those positive things that I had around me. And that was huge. And finally, helping others realizing that there were other women, there were other men, there were other children, and young people who needed help, who needed to know you are not alone. And there is hope. And that hope is worth fighting for So beginning to pour into others and help others who were where I was, that was a big moment for me as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And you've mentioned there that you started to reach out and help others. And you've continued to do that through your website. And tell me a little about that book. I mean, fascinating title. And we've already heard where the idea of the elephants come from, what was the thinking behind that book?
 
Caris Snider 
Right. So like you said, the idea of the elephants came from the description of describing anxiety as elephants sitting on my chest, I knew that that many people were dealing with anxiety, and they didn't know what it was. So giving them that description helped them to understand better. And then there were some that, that were not dealing with anxiety, but they had family members in their life who were and so that helped them to understand what that anxiety really felt like for them. And so in writing the devotional, honestly, I had never really wanted to be a writer that was not on my bucket list, I guess you could say, but but God just kind of began to do a work in me and show me you know, that that was something he wanted me to do. So I began to just kind of write and look for scriptures. And what I wanted to do was offer a tool, a tool to help people to know, okay, these are daily action steps that I can take, because when you're in the middle of that anxiety, you want to take action, but you don't really know what action to take. So in the book, there is a scripture for every day, there's 31 days and, and then we kind of in the text, we talk about that scripture and I share about different stories and parts of my my life. And then at the end of that there is an action step for the reader to take. And then after that there's a prayer they can pray. And there's a journaling page, or they can write down what did they learn? How are they going to take that action step for that day. So it's short reading, but it's power packed to really help people see you can overcome these anxiety elephants, you can get back to not just surviving in your life, but you can truly thrive and the purpose that God has for you.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I imagine that for someone who's experiencing anxiety, experiencing depression, the last thing they want is reading through volumes of information. So those short, power packed devotionals are probably going to be the best thing for them to say. There is someone on my side. And I can just read that even through my mind fog at the moment.
 
Caris Snider 
Yeah, I love how you said that, that there is someone on my side. And I remember that's what I needed. I couldn't really process Going through those moments really in depth deep, you know, long reading, but I just needed someone to say take this one small action today. And that's a victory. And that began to help me to see that I didn't have to focus on what I was not doing, just focus on the small things that I could do each day. And so that's why I wanted to really write the devotional in that way, so that it would give people momentum every day to build on something new to say, Hey, I took this one small step. Now, what small steps can I take today?
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's been almost a decade since all of this came to a head. And you had to reach out and say, I need help in that decade, since we'd all like to believe that we can get an instant cure. But what has that journey been? Like? Is it an ongoing journey for you?
 
Caris Snider 
It is, I would love to tell people that I no longer battle anxiety or depression. But that would be a lie, that would not be true, I still have days, I still have moments where I struggle, where I wonder where I asked those what ifs. But now, I don't stay down in the struggle. And it doesn't keep me wrapped up. Now I have these tools. And I know what I can do to fight back. Now I may have a day where it knocks me out completely. But I can get up the next day and know these are the things that I know to do. I also know that God's grace is sufficient, and that he loves me that he is not mad at me. If I go back into those struggles, and I know that my purpose is still there for me, even when I struggle, and so I'm learning in this process over these years that the struggles allow me to lean in on God and to trust in Him. And that it's okay. To not be okay.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It must be wonderful to know that there are now more good days than bad days. What does the family life look like for you today?
 
Caris Snider 
Yes. So now today, actually, we have two daughters, we have a daughter who's 12 and a daughter who's eight. And so family life today looks for us, we have a lot of honest conversations, I want my daughters to know that they can share the good, the bad and the ugly, they will not get in trouble. So we make sure that we leave space for that space for that honesty. The days now are filled, you know, as best as they can with conversations with friends. Those conversations may be you know, Hey, how are you today. And if they need to share a struggle, there is space to do that. And then I also now have a tribe of people around me, that allows me to share allows me to open up and so the days are filled with leaving that freedom, for whatever may happen to happen. And to know that in that it could be something good, it could be something that that's hard, but God will use it for good. He'll use it in a way that'll bring honor and glory to Him. And so these days are filled with much more laughter much more freedom than where I was 10 years ago. And I am just truly grateful for that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
As you said, one of the things that you want to do now is to reach out to provide that help for others. And you do that through the book anxiety elephants, also through blog posts and various other things that people will find on your website. What is the easiest way for people to discover you or find you online?
 
Caris Snider 
Right, so they can go to my website that is carissnider.com. And there you can find more information about the book, you can find my social media where I hang out for social media, and like you said, different blog posts and other videos that I've done. So I feel like the website would be the easiest way for people to discover
 
Rodney Olsen 
Caris. It has been wonderful to talk to you to hear some of your story, which sounds like there's some very difficult things that you've been through. But amongst that there is some incredible hope. And we thank you for bringing that hope, because I'm sure that there are many people that are experiencing that both for themselves. But also, as you've mentioned, knowing that loved ones are going through difficult times and wondering how can I help them so thank you for what you've brought to our conversation today. And thank you for spending some time on bleeding daylight.
 
Caris Snider 
Yeah, thank you Rodney for allowing me to be on and thank you for having this this space to offer help to the world.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

Markus Watson was investigated for a sickening crime with no knowledge of who had made allegations against him, what evidence they claimed to have, and not even knowing the crime he was alleged to have committed. He faced accusations that threatened to destroy his livelihood and trash his reputation. He was betrayed, investigated by the FBI and forced out of a job.
 
https://www.markuswatson.com/
https://www.markuswatson.com/podcast/
https://www.markuswatson.com/book/
https://www.facebook.com/MarkusWats0n
https://www.instagram.com/markuswats0n/
https://twitter.com/MarkusWatson
 
 
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Imagine being investigated for a sickening crime with no knowledge of who has made allegations against you what evidence they claim to have, and not even knowing the crime you are alleged to have committed. That's the story of my guest on Bleeding Daylight today. We'll hear his alarming story in a few moments.
 
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Speaker, author and pastor Markus Watson faced accusations that threatened to destroy his livelihood and trash his reputation. He was betrayed, investigated by the FBI and forced out of a job. Today we'll explore his story, Markus, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Markus Watson 
Thanks, Rodney. It's good to be here.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Working in ministry wasn't your first career choice. In fact, I believe that the bright lights of Hollywood seemed to hold more of an attraction for you back in those early days.
 
Markus Watson 
You know, when I was a kid, my dream was to be a movie star. That's what I that's, I used to pray dear Lord, You know, as a little kid, you Lord, please help me to be an actor. While I'm still a kid, I still I wanted to be like a child actor. Probably good that I wasn't. As I got older, I was like, yeah, you know what, I don't want to be an actor, I want to be a director, you know, I wanted to tell the stories and be in control of the stories. And so after college or at the end of near the end of college, I got an internship in Hollywood as a production assistant, which is kind of the the bottom of the totem pole, that's, you know, that's the person who goes and gets coffee or delivers this script to that person over there, whatever. And is it kind of assists with a production, it was fun, it was a great experience for a while, until I realized that if I was going to succeed in Hollywood, I was going to have to make that my number one priority in life. And I couldn't really do that. I love God, I loved my church. You know, in college, I'd been involved in Campus Crusade for Christ. I mean, that was really my number one priority was my relationship with God. And I realized that if I was going to keep pursuing Hollywood, I was going to have to set that aside. And that's not to say that there aren't any faithful Christians in Hollywood, I know that there are, and some people maybe are better able to manage those priorities, than I might have been. So anyway, I got to the point where I realized that I was gonna have to leave Hollywood. And that was that was really, really hard. That was probably up until that point in my life, certainly, the hardest decision I've ever made. That dream had been with me for my entire life, you know. And so letting go of that dream was like cutting my arm off. I decided that I would do one of three things, I would either go on Stanford's Campus Crusade for Christ, which I enjoyed, or I would get a master's degree in communication, or I'll go to seminary and I lived in LA at the time and Fuller Seminary was nearby. And so I applied at Fuller Seminary, applied at the other two as well, Campus Crusade and, you know, explored some other graduate schools for communication. And I could get into those latter two, by the following January, I could get into Fuller, that fall. And I thought, well, let's give seminary a shot, you know, and if I don't like it, I'll pursue one of these other options. And when I got Fuller, first day of class was patristic theology with John Thompson. And I loved it. And I just thought, Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe I get to learn all this stuff. patristic theology, by the way, theology of the early church fathers, right. So just early church history. Gosh, I just felt at home, I didn't yet feel like I was being called to be a pastor, necessarily, but I did know that I was in the right place. That call to become a pastor was clarified over my time while I was in seminary. You know, several years later, I finished and I got ordained as a Presbyterian pastor and I got my first call to a to a church in Union, Kentucky, as an associate pastor out there.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's interesting that you had that self awareness then as a young man to say, you know, this is something that's a dream for me, but I know it's not kind of benefit me to pursue it. I wonder what life would be like if many more of us had that self awareness at a young age to say, yeah, this is a desire, but it's not a good one.
 
Markus Watson 
I don't want to give myself too much credit. It was, I mean, I, you know, I had grown a lot in my faith in college, but I'll be honest, you know, there were some difficult moments in that Hollywood experience. That was part of the self awareness, if you can call it that is just that, who I didn't like that. I didn't like that. You know, there were these expectations that you would work all hours of the day, especially if you're at the bottom of the totem pole. You know, no matter what even for no pay the couple of funny little stories, one was, I was delivering a script in the days, you know, just prior to email being widely used. So I was delivering a script to the host of this TV special, but delivered it to the wrong place and kind of stuck it through the door of the wrong unit in this condo complex. And I came back and the producer was like, You can't make mistakes like this. He's a star, you can't do this with a star. And then he goes, Well, he's not a star, but he is a celebrity. And I'm like, Oh, interesting. So there's a hierarchy that even with the big famous people, you know, and so there is that. And then the last job, it became clear, for me, it was a temporary job for two or three or four weeks at a company that did movie trailers, it had the possibility of becoming full time. And they did just decided not to keep me and I said, Oh, why, you know, what, was there anything I could have done? And they said, Well, you could have offered to stay late, meaning without pay, you know, beyond the eight hours per day, and I was just like, oh, okay, I see. And that was kind of, for me the, the last thing so you know, so that awareness came through difficult circumstances, and I was just kind of ready to let it go. But I do think that, you know, the more we can develop that self awareness, even as much as possible at a young age, the less pain perhaps we go through later in life, or the more less difficulty we go through later in life, if we can get started on the right track, I think it would have been harder for me had I stuck to my guns and said, I'm gonna make this work. I'm gonna make this work, even though I really kind of started to realize this just isn't gonna work.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I'm sure that the irony is not lost on some that you decided not to go with a calling that was going to mean that you had to work all hours for no pay, and decided to go into ministry.
 
Markus Watson 
Oh, there you go. I had never made that connection. But there you go. Yep. That's funny.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I do remember working in a very different profession years ago, and thinking, I wouldn't go to any great lengths to continue this profession. And yet, when I considered the alternative, and back then that was to go and work in radio is like, Yeah, I'd I'd move I'd do whatever it took to actually get into that industry. And so it really starts to tell you where your true priorities are.
 
Markus Watson 
That's a good point. Yeah, one of the things I realized, I guess, was that I wasn't as committed to that desire, as maybe I thought I was, you know, I think my experience in college and Campus Crusade, that's kind of where my, my faith really grew and became my own. You know, that's where I began to lead Bible studies, with other you know, college students with us. I would give talks in our weekly meetings, you know, college student versions of little sermons, you know, and, and we did a lot of evangelism. That's one of the things Campus Crusade is great. And I learned, so I learned to share my faith, and that it's important for people to know Jesus. And so all of those things, kind of set me on it on a trajectory, I think, well towards some kind of Christian Leadership. And I didn't really know it, until until I knew it, I guess, until it became, but it was this unfolding, right. It's like a peeling back layers of an onion, and you get closer and closer to the core of, oh, here's what God is calling, calling me to do.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So we jump ahead. And you've mentioned that you started your first job as a pastor in a small church. Tell us a little about that experience.
 
Markus Watson 
I was still newly married. So I had been a youth pastor in a really great church. I mean, when I think back to my favorite times in ministry, it was as a youth pastor of this church, Glen Kirk Presbyterian Church in Glendora, California. Something about that relationship with those kids really clicked. I still am in touch with many of those kids. They're all in their 30s now, but I just as recently as a year and a half ago, I officiated one of their weddings. That was a non ordained position. And then I became, you know, I finished my ordination process and then so Okay, now it's time gotta gotta go. Look for an ordained position as a pastor, senior pastor, associate pastor, and so I was looking at associate pastor positions. I was wanting to stay in Southern California, because that was home. And so I interviewed with a couple of churches in Southern California. And then I got a call from this church in Kentucky. But I was not interested in that, you know, I didn't want to leave California, but I thought, you know, what I need, I need interview practice. So you know, I, I said, Sure, I'll talk with you on the phone. They almost immediately said, Hey, we want to fly you out here and interview you in person. And I thought, what the heck, it's good practice. And I've never been in Kentucky. And so my wife and I said, Yeah, let's go. Let's do the interview. And so we did. I wasn't convinced that that's where God was calling us, although I wasn't totally opposed to it. Anyway, we came back And they offered me the position. But I was holding out to see what would happen with these other two churches. Well, just kind of things didn't work out with either of them. But in my mind after a month or so I had set this church in Kentucky aside, I wasn't even thinking about them. And I, I said to my wife, after these two churches in California didn't work out. I said, Well, what do we do? And she's like, well, there's still Kentucky. And I was like, Oh, yeah, oh, no. But the more I prayed about it, the more I you know, I went for walks and just saw right Lord told me, you know, what do you do? And it just became clear that that's where God was calling us. And so we said, Yes. And we, we lived there for about three and a half years. And it was it was a good experience. I was hired as the associate pastor, for youth. After a couple of years, the senior pastor resigned, which left me as the only pastor on staff. And so then I for about seven months, until they called an interim senior pastor, I, you know, I was the guy I had to learn to preach every Sunday and, and do everything else too. And so, in a way, I kind of feel like, I think maybe that's why God called me there, right? Because God knew I was going to need to push into that kind of a role to kind of prepare me or to show me that, Oh, look, I can do this. And that's one of the things I learned was that, oh, okay, I can do this. I can, I can preach every Sunday I can. I can lead teams and, you know, lead the whole congregation, I think I got this. And so I didn't just start looking, they kind of ran out of money. Markus, I think we need you to start looking for another job. And they didn't like push me out or anything. But, you know, I was like, Okay, good. So I started and ended up in San Diego, then after that,
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what happened at that point, you move to another church, and what transpired as you started to pastor there at this new church,
 
Markus Watson 
it was great at first, you know, my wife and I were really excited to move back to Southern California. And San Diego is a beautiful city, we'd never lived there. But of course, we'd been there to Los Angeles is only about two hours north of San Diego. And we were close to family and friends, certainly within driving distance. And so we were just so excited to come back to San Diego. It seemed like a good fit this church for me for for that time, it was great for about seven and a half years. You know, we've made some healthy changes to bring some life into the church make connections with, you know, families and the preschool, and many of them started coming to church, did some work in the community partnerships with local schools, and then about seven and a half years and is kind of when things took a turn.
 
Rodney Olsen 
When did you start to get an inkling that things weren't going well for you there?
 
Markus Watson 
That's a good question. You know, I think it would be when I requested a sabbatical. So I'd been there for about seven years. And you know, a lot in a lot of churches at seven years, churches will give the pastor a three month sabbatical, at least in our tradition that happens in a lot of churches. So I requested that and I had come to this place where I was like, oh, man, yeah, I'm, I'm on the verge of burnout. I had finished doing a doctor of ministry. And then after I finished writing that dissertation, I was like, you know, I'm gonna give everything I can to the church. So for like six months, I think I preached every Sunday, except for maybe like two, something like that. I remember crawling towards a two week vacation. And I say crawling, it felt like I was crawling on my hands and knees to this toward this little two weeks vacation just like oh my gosh, I need a break. And that's when I was like, I need I need a sabbatical. And I think it's okay for me to ask for one. So I did. But there was some pushback, our elders approved it. But they needed some convincing from another pastor in our presbytery, who came and he said, here's the value and someone suggested, why don't you let the congregation vote on it? Right? That way, you get sort of a vote of confidence. So I was like, Okay. And it wasn't a unanimous vote. You know, it was like a two thirds of the congregation voted to approve the sabbatical. The other third didn't. But I was like, Well, I'm going to take it. But but that was kind of a little hint. I'm not sure everything is as good as perhaps it once was. When I did take the sabbatical. That's when things really kind of took a turn for the worse.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It must have been a little bit crushing to realize that this group of people that you were leading in this church, they didn't all have your back. They weren't all going in the same direction. Even though two thirds is a good majority, to know that there's a third of people who didn't believe that you actually needed a break. Must have been a little bit crushing for you.
 
Markus Watson 
Yes, yes. I think I maybe tried to ignore it a little bit. But you're right. It was a little bit disappointing. At a minimum, you know why? How come they don't all support this? Can't they see right how much blood sweat and tears gets poured into a church by a pastor. Me in particular in this case, right? Yeah, it was it was disappointing.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So it was around this time that things started to turn decidedly dark. Explain that to me.
 
Markus Watson 
Yeah. So I was about two weeks into my sabbatical. And I got a call from our executive presenter, who's sort of oversees our local regional presbytery. And he said, Hey, Markus, I need to talk to you about something. I said, Okay. This was on a Friday afternoon. He called He's like, Can I meet with you tomorrow was like, Oh, no, yeah, I'm gonna be up in Los Angeles, visiting my brother and some friends. How about next week? He said, No, I really need to meet with you tomorrow. I was like, Well, I mean, I'm on sabbatical. And I've got plans. Let's, let's do it some other time. And anyway, so I felt a little bit put off by that pressure. And I was like, What is this all about? So we ended up meeting on Sunday of that weekend. And he wanted to meet with my wife as well. And that's when he said, Markus, someone has accused you of having a problem with pornography, full disclosure. It's not like I've never looked at pornography in my life. But I have been in accountability relationships for a long time. And so I had been in an accountability relationship with another pastor in our presbytery. And so I wasn't worried about it. When he said that the that accusation had been made. I said, Well, what do you what do you need? And he said, I need to look at your I need to do a forensic analysis on your laptop. I said, you want to right now. And he said, that would be good. So I gave him my laptop. And I didn't want to debate it. I didn't want to not cooperate. I wanted to cooperate. And so they took my laptop. What I didn't totally realize at first, although I guess I kind of did was they weren't following our official process. There's a process for doing an investigation when someone brings allegations he was doing this kind of under the table. So he took the laptop set, it was going to take maybe two or three days and ended up taking three weeks, which was very frustrating, just because, you know, I didn't have my laptop with me. And, and I didn't know what was going on. That was the other thing, like, Why is it taking so long? Finally, after about three weeks, he called me and he said, Markus, I can't give you your laptop back, because your laptop has been handed over to the authorities and is now a potential criminal investigation. And I just, I was like, What are you talking about? What could they possibly have found on there? That would lead to a potential criminal investigation. And of course, the the accusation originally was pornography. And so I'm thinking, I mean, I know I've never looked at child pornography even right before and I had any accountability. I mean, never, ever, ever. And so, but I'm thinking is, is there something there? And you know, one of the things I worried about was, did somebody put something there, our tech guy who would occasionally work on my laptop, which had become sort of a, an antagonist in the last couple of years. And so I was worried, did he put something there? He didn't. But that's where my mind went, you know, did somebody put something there? And I didn't even know if it was pornography related. Did somebody put bomb instructions or something, you know, my laptop. And so anyway, that that led to a really, really dark time for me, because I didn't know what was happening, or what was going to happen. And you know, it just felt it was a it was a dark night of the soul is what it led to just lots of fear, lots of anxiety. And I'm kind of, you know, pros and cons to the fact that this happened during my sabbatical. I am glad that it happened during my sabbatical, because I had lots of time for prayer and reflection and silence. I had also had a great therapist that I was meeting with, who helped me to process all of this, and you know, what I was feeling and, of course, he didn't know what was happening either, but just kind of to process what was going on. But I did have a few moments of grace. I had a moment where I was sitting on my patio and spent a lot of time doing lectio Divina, and just silence and solitude and so I had just spent some time in the scriptures and I put my Bible down, I was sitting there quietly, and of course thinking about all that was going on, or that might be going on. I didn't know everything, but I was afraid, you know, and so my mind went into all of these worst case scenarios, and I thought to myself, I might lose my job, which I did eventually, you know, I thought I might lose my ordination. Yeah, I might lose my reputation right I might be remembered as that guy you know, Oh, you know what happened to Markus right in our in our presbytery among the other Presbyterian pastors in San Diego. And then I thought I might lose my family. If it looks like I'm guilty of something. Now, I don't think I actually would have lost my family. But you know, my mind was going into all of these worst case scenarios. And then I thought I might, I might become a registered sex offender. And everywhere I go, someone might I mean, people will believe something about me that isn't even true. And then I thought I could go to prison, if it looks like I'm guilty of whatever it might be. And so I had this image of myself, just sort of, in my mind sitting in a prison cell, having lost everything, everything had been taken away from me. And then it's like, in that moment, it was like I heard God say, but Marcus, no one can ever take my love away from you. And that was what I needed to hear in that moment. And in that moment, it's like God's love was more real to me than it had ever been before. You know, of course, I had for you know, for years and years and years, talked about the unconditional love of God, God loves you unconditionally, of course. And I believed all that, but I hadn't really felt it. Until that moment, that's when God's love just became so profoundly real in a way that I had never imagined. And really, I've never been able to shake that, which I'm so so grateful for. That's one of the blessings right of going through a time like this is, is what God can do, because of our suffering.
 
Rodney Olsen 
At this time, you don't fully know what you're being accused of, of what has been supposedly found on this laptop. But did you know who was making these accusations at this point?
 
Markus Watson 
I didn't. I had some suspicions. And they turned out to be right. What I found out was that it was a staff person at our church. What someone had told me, she had said was that in one of our staff meetings, she had told me about her husband's problem with pornography. And I fully recall that conversation. And then she said that, you know, when I told pastor Marcus, he just didn't react the way I thought he would I bet he's got a problem with that, too. That was sort of the foundation for the accusations. And so the staff person went to the presbytery, and said, I think pastor Markus has a problem with pornography, and then they kind of took it from there. And then what I did find out later, whatever it was, that triggered my laptop, going to the authorities, which I found out also later was the FBI. You know, it was basically pictures of my kids, you know, goofing around in their underwear when they were little. And so the person doing the analysis said, well, it's not my job to determine if this is pornography or not. I'm just a mandated reporter. So I'm going to hand it off. And then eventually, the FBI said, there's no pornography here. And so they just gave me the laptop back and closed the investigation. And so that was that was good.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And it must have been difficult, knowing that there was someone that you were somewhat close to within the church who is making this accusation? How difficult was it for you to step back and realize this must be coming from a pain point in her life? Because she's struggling with her husband dealing with this? How difficult is it to separate yourself from that and actually start to understand what she's going through?
 
Markus Watson 
It is really difficult in the moment, it's a little bit easier later on. In the moment. I wasn't even really thinking about that. I was just thinking about survival. To be honest. How do I get through another week? What happened was at the end of my sabbatical, within a few weeks, you know that my laptop was returned to me. And now all of this was an under the table investigation, right? not following the process. And so those who were involved in it said, Alright, hey is over, we're done, we can move on. Clearly, there was nothing there. Within a few weeks, someone I was hand delivered served a notice from the presbytery, saying that no formal allegations had been made. I still didn't know who it was. But now formal allegations were made of child pornography. The accusation was basically that well, since the laptop went to the FBI, there must be something there. And so that kicked off another investigation, a formal investigation this time, which after a few months, concluded again, that there was no evidence to support the accusations, which I'm really grateful for. Like at that time, I was like, somebody, somebody is not just trying to protect the church at this point. Someone is trying to destroy me. Right? They want me to go to prison, right. And so what I did find out eventually, a guy that was that was hard, and I'm not a particularly confrontational kind of a person. So I didn't really confront her at first. I did eventually bring our Chair of personnel into a conversation with her, and I brought it up and well, it did not go well. That was the last time I interacted with her and our elders said we're gonna put another elder over her as supervisor and I said, that's fine. It was really hard. I wasn't really able to begin to forgive her. I think and So after I was gone from that church A few months after that person made another accusation after the presbytery for the second time, you know, exonerated me, then she made the same accusations to our elders. So we had to deal with it with the elders. My accountability partner came in to that meeting and said, Look, I have years worth of accountability reports, if you want to see them. We had a new executive presenter at that point, he came in and said, as far as the presbytery is concerned, this is a closed matter. And so, you know, my friend and I, my accountability partner and I we recused ourselves for about half an hour came back in and our elder said, Marcus, you have our trust as our pastor and I thought to myself, Oh, maybe it's over. Maybe this is it, maybe I can finally move on. You know, it would have been great, except that one of the elders for whatever reason, decided to believe the accusations and started calling people in the congregation saying that pastor Markus is into child pornography. I didn't know that that was happening. The other elders didn't know that that was happening until about two or three weeks later, when we found out I realized, and I think so did the other elders, there's no coming back from that. Right. So there was a congregational meeting and a long discussion, you know, with me recused, but I was able to hear through the door. But you know, there was a vote to dissolve their relationship with me. And they voted to do that by a margin of two votes, it was a bare majority, you know, and then I moved on to another another work, that was a really good, wonderful place to be in that time, after leaving the church was when I was finally able to sort of step back and reflect on, you know, what might have been going on inside of her. I did know that there had been some kind of abuse in her past and, of course, her husband, his problem with pornography, so I knew that there was pain there. And, you know, they say hurt people hurt people, you know, I was able to accept that after, after some time. I remember being in the car listening to a podcast with Steve Scazzero who wrote Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. He asked in this episode, something like, you know, are you able to pray for your enemies? Something like that? And I said out loud, I think in the car, nope. I can't do that. And then I was like, oh, okay, Lord, I guess I have to do that. And so I started to I just started to pray for that person. And then a few others who were kind of involved in this. I didn't mean it, you know, with much affection I not that I didn't mean the prayer. It just there wasn't from my end, a lot of love at first, right? There wasn't much forgiveness at first, but I was like, okay, Lord, I'm called to pray for those who persecute me. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. And then, you know, over time, I was able to mean it more. And I was able to let go of the bitterness and the anger. Sometimes I wonder to myself, what would happen if I ran into that person? Now? I don't think I would hate that person. But it would, you know, it would be an uncomfortable conversation. If there were a conversation, you know, my life is not consumed with anger, or bitterness, or how could they or why did they or I hope something bad happens to them? I got I don't have any of those kinds of thoughts. So I'm grateful for that. But there's, you know, when you look at someone who has never been through anything hard, or nothing significantly difficult in life, and then he looks at someone who has been there is there's sort of almost like a shallowness. And when I look at myself, prior to this experience, I look back and I'm like, That guy was just a kid. You had no idea what life was really all about? How could I even have been a pastor at that time, of course, God is gracious and helped me be a pastor. But, but it's almost like I, when I look at that, like, I hope I never go through anything like that again. But I would not undo it. Because I have become more fully I believe, the person that God created me to be because of that experience. When a person I think, at least my case, but I think when it when a person is able to move through suffering in a healthy way, right? You can move through suffering in an unhealthy way and become bitter and angry and cynical. Right and harbor unforgiveness, right? But if you can move through it in a healthy way, I think it makes you more compassionate, I am better able to relate to people who are suffering now, even if it's a totally different kind of suffering, right? But there's a part of me that goes, I kind of understand now, right what you're going through and so I'm better able to identify with them. I'm better able to pray with people
 
Rodney Olsen 
Where has life moved for you since then you said that you moved into a position with a not for profit, what happened since that time?
 
Markus Watson 
So I got voted out on a Sunday afternoon and the very next day I was on a plane to Little Rock, Arkansas for a pastor's retreat that had already been on my calendar for six months. And so it was like, okay, God knew what I needed this week. And, and that was a place of great healing. I was, believe it or not, not the only person who had been voted out of their church that same day. So there was a little bit of commiserating there and a lot of praying for each other. And so that was a real gift to have that that following week, within a few weeks, a friend of mine who had started a nonprofit called flourish San Diego, you know, said, hey, let's have lunch. And he invited me to join him on staff of this nonprofit. But that was a really good healing place for me to be. I was there for two years. The only reason I left was because I had to fundraise my own salary. And that is really hard. And, but I loved I loved every moment being there. And it was, for me, it was really good because I wasn't in charge. Right? I got to be a part of the team. And I loved being part of that team. As it became clear that I was going to need to leave for San Diego, I had been doing a lot of guest preaching a fellow pastor who was here in San Diego and kind of knew what was going on. As soon as he heard what had happened at my church. He said, Hey, Marcus, I need someone to preach in three weeks, do you want to preach for me? And my initial reaction? I didn't say to him, but when I read the email, I was like, Oh, I don't want to do that. I told my wife and she said, I think you should do it, you need to get right back into it. I was like, All right. Okay, I'll do it. And so actually, that led to a really great ministry kind of on the side, too, is just guest preaching, you know, a couple times a month in various churches all over the San Diego area. And I loved doing that, partly because I could go and I could go home, then go to the church, preach, and then go home and no pressure. But that was that was kind of a healing thing for me to to, to be able to proclaim God's word right and use my gifts. While not having to bear the burden of leading a congregation after having been through such a difficult experience.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm interested there in both those situations with your friend who's running the nonprofit flourish. Also your pastor friend who says, Hey, come and preach for me. Yeah, I'm interested in the value of close friendships at a difficult time. Because it's its friends who come alongside you and their offers of here, come and preach or here come and work with me. Yeah, in some way, saying, I don't believe any of that. And I'm here for you. Yeah. How valuable is that for you?
 
Markus Watson 
Oh, my goodness. So so valuable. In fact, my accountability partner who is also another pastor, and not the one who invited me to preach that, that first time, we're good friends and our wives I like we're as couples, we are good friends. And we get together a lot. You know, when we can when it's not a pandemic. But we used to do it every every week, and every Sunday night, we would get together for dinner, he was such a blessing to me, especially during those those first few months. He went to bat for me as a as another pastor in the presbytery. He went to bat for me in ways that I couldn't for myself, because I was the one being accused. And he would raise questions Why? Why are you doing it this? or Why are you investigating him like this? You know, what? Why aren't you following the process? And he would, he would just, you know, be a friend to me. And he would text me or call me at least every other day. How you doing today? You know, you're hanging in there. He Take me out to dinner every now and then. And and it was after one of those times, that I was confronted with my own sense of lack of self worth, where I realized, Wow, he really cares about me, you know, and that became a way for me to understand the love of God to when because he cared for me, clearly, God must also care for me. Right? And so that gave me that deepen my understanding of God's love. And then after, right after all this happened, this friend who had started a nonprofit, I mean, I don't know what I would have done I suppose God would have provided something else but but this is what God provided right through this friend Jeff shoe. And it was just what I needed. Same same with this other pastor John Moser, Mount Soledad, Presbyterian church who invited me to come preach, and it was just what I needed. And and I don't think I could, you're right, I don't think I could have healed as well. I'm trying to decide if I want to say as quickly I'm not sure it happened quickly. But it happened, right, because of these friends, that I had these relationships, these support the support system that I had, that helped me get the people who knew me, right, who also knew Marcus. This isn't true, right? This is Marcus, this is not true of him. And so it was so good to have those people to help me get through that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And then you move on, after a couple of years at flourish. What did God provide for you next?
 
Markus Watson 
So as things began to come to an end at Flourish, and I realized, okay, I'm being called to step away from here, I'd been guest preaching and there Was this one church, about two hours east of San Diego, a little rural town called Westmoreland. And there's a little Presbyterian church there. And, you know, they got my name from someone and I had been guest preaching there. Their pastor had retired and I was guest preaching there about once or twice a month on average for about a year. And then when they heard that I was leaving for San Diego, they said, Would you like to come be our interim pastor? And I said, well, let's, let's talk about that. And, you know, after some discussion on what that would look like, since they are two hours away, and it just, I think it just became clear, you know what I think this is where God is calling me now, there was a part of me that resisted becoming a pastor again, but truly, if it weren't for this little church, with some really wonderful kind, gracious people who I could tell, just loved me even as a guest preacher, but we had gotten to know each other because I was there on a semi regular basis. If it hadn't been for them for that particular church, and those particular people, I don't think I would have stepped back into a pastoral role. And it's been a really great experience. I've been there for two and a half years now. I'm their interim pastor. It's a part time position. I'm out there Sundays, and Mondays, and then I work from home the rest of the week. Right now, I'm just there on Sunday mornings, but we do a Bible study via conference call on Mondays, and they've done some really great things. They've got a food pantry, what I mean by great is just great service to their community. And I've loved to be a part of that. I can't take credit for it. Other than I asked a question one day, what else do you do besides church on Sunday mornings? And they like? Good question. And so they started this food pantry, this tiny town with lots of food insecurity. And they serve almost 200 people every week. And it's just fantastic. And it has brought life to that congregation. And I feel grateful that I get to be a part of what God is doing there.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And when you're not ministering there, you've got other things that are on the go, such as your podcast, also a little of that.
 
Markus Watson 
And that's another thing that came out of this experience. You know, my my podcast is called spiritual life and leadership. I do it because the inner life of pastors is really important for the sake of their outer life. Right? If we're going to if we're going to lead in a healthy way in our outer life, we need to have a healthy inner life of union with Jesus. And so that's kind of what the podcast is all about. How do we as pastors as leaders, develop that healthy inner life Emotionally Healthy Spirituality to us Pete Scazzero's language, right? union with Jesus? How do we navigate things like the dark night of the soul? Because we all have to at some point, and so sometimes, interviews focus on just kind of standard leadership things most of the time, there is certainly a spiritual formation component with it. Yeah, I don't think I would have even thought to start this podcast had I not been through what I went through. My podcast has been adopted by by Fuller Seminary as part of their new church Leadership Initiative. God provides in surprising ways. And I'm, and is led right life is not a straight line, it is twists and turns and ups and downs, and who knew who knew something like that was going to happen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So in the same way that you had a number of people who had your back through a difficult time, who were able to provide that support, you're able to do that to a whole range of pastors and leaders.
 
Markus Watson 
Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. That's really my hope and my goal. And that comes partly out of being at Flourish San Diego where I was able to support pastors during my time there and encourage them and, and so I just, I really do I love that I love being able to help pastors, because I know I'm not the only one who has struggled. And I know I'm not the only one who has suffered.
 
Rodney Olsen 
NACA, so if people are wanting to get in touch with you, if people are wanting to listen to the podcast, what is the best place for them to find you?
 
Markus Watson 
Yeah, so then go to my website, markuswatson.com and that's Markus with a K. A lot of times people misspell it with a C because that's a common spelling but it's Markus with a K, markuswatson.com you find my podcasts there, I've got some other resources. Anyway, you can check those out that are available for free. And I've also got a book that I released about a year ago called Beyond Thingification which, in part comes out of my experience as well and as well as some other things, but you know, a lot of times churches do what they do in order to either survive or just get bigger, right and and we tend to lose sight of the people that were called to care for and we think defy them and so we need to get beyond thingification So I invite you to check that out as well. You can find that on the website too.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Marcus, it has been a delight to chat to you. I will put connections into our show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet so that people can find you there but Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for being so open and honest and sharing your story today on bleeding daylight.
 
Markus Watson 
Thanks so much, Rodney. I really I love your show. And I think you're doing a great work by sharing these stories too. So I appreciate getting to be here and telling my story.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

Do you run towards or away from change?
 
However you answer that question, this episode of Bleeding Daylight will be a real encouragement for you. It’s the story of Sharon Tedford and her family’s move across the world but it’s so much more than that. Sharon is a singer/songwriter, artist, podcaster and so much more. You’ll be inspired by her and motivated to make change in your own life.
 
 
https://61-things.com/
https://www.facebook.com/61things
http://instagram.com/61things
http://twitter.com/61things
 
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Do you run towards or away from change?
 
However you answer that question, this episode of Bleeding Daylight will be a real encouragement for you. It’s the story of a family’s move across the world but it’s so much more than that. I know that you’re going to connect with my guest as she honestly shares a message that will encourage and inspire you.
 
Please remember to share this inspiring story with others and connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
 
Make sure you don’t miss future episodes by subscribing to Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts.
 
Sharon Tedford is a singer songwriter who, like many of us, has never been a big fan of change. It's ironic then that her life is marked by so many large changes, including a move halfway across the world. She's even founded a ministry named 61 Things which aims to help people actively seek change in their own lives. It's my real pleasure to welcome her to Bleeding Daylight today. Thank you for your time.
 
Sharon Tedford 
Rodney, it's really good to meet you. I absolutely love this show. So I'm so excited to be on this side of the mic and not just have you in my ears.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Thank you very much. As we talk about change, let's begin with that big one. Where did you move from and to?
 
Sharon Tedford 
Well, we were living in a really pretty little village, just outside London in the county of Buckinghamshire, which is actually just north of Windsor Castle. So we could see Windsor Castle, in the far, far distance from the top of our road. So we moved from a little village where we knew many, many, many people to the outskirts of Dallas, where we knew nobody. So you know, it's a, it's a rural town where we live now, streets and it's very cityish, a completely different driving on the wrong side of the road. Speaking the wrong language. I know it's English but you and I both know, Texan is the greatest form of American. So there was lots for us to learn when we got here.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what was the catalyst for such a big change?
 
Sharon Tedford 
Well, the short answer is God. The long answer is my husband took redundancy from his company, which gave him freedom and he was very clear in saying, Let's allow God to take us wherever he wants us and so he was looking at jobs all over the world and Texas was the winner.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I suspect that he's someone that doesn't mind change as much as you did back then. So what was the difference in the dynamic there with him saying, hey, let's go everywhere? Were you thinking, Oh, please? No,
 
Sharon Tedford 
That's a really good point. He's an engineer. So things are very linear for him. So it seemed like the obvious next step for him like, there literally was a spreadsheet of we could do this, then this is the outcome. If we do this, then that is the outcome. So I think he had stuff much more controlled in his brain. And also, to be fair, for him, the change was obvious. And he knew he went from one job to another job from one set of co workers or colleagues, to another set of colleagues, and actually some of the people that he even knew, because he'd worked with them previously. So for him, it was a much easier step. It wasn't easy. It was easier. Whereas for me, it was completely unknown. I was moving, obviously, with my husband and our children. So a family unit together, not completely alone. But you know, they went to school and work and then I was home alone with our four year old, twiddling my thumbs, and staring at the walls.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you had three children, and you're moving across the world with three children. That can't have been easy to start with.
 
Sharon Tedford 
It wasn't easy. They were excited. God is very good, isn't he? The Christmas before we moved here, we knew that my husband Gareth, his name, is Gareth, was going to be taking the redundancy package and that he would be leaving his company. And before we left, we decided to go on holiday with our family and actually bringing my parents with us because we wanted to go to SeaWorld. So we thought over Christmas, we'll go to SeaWorld in Florida, get some sunshine, won't that be lovely but the flights was fully booked and it was really expensive. And then a friend of ours said, Well, actually, there's a SeaWorld in Texas in San Antonio. And strange but true. My dad actually used to live in San Antonio when he was a child. He and his parents emigrated to America. And my grandma got TB, so they didn't stay they couldn't afford the medical. My dad lived here for I think three or five years I forget how long. So we brought him with us to San Antonio. And we had this wonderful experience through his eyes as a child and my children just lapped it up. So we went to see his old house, we went to see his old elementary school, and they let us in, which was just incredible. So the children had a bit of a taste. And my my dad told them all about how he lived in the 40s and early 50s on a ranch with his own horse and a gun and how they used to ride around and shoot black birds and bunnies and all the stuff that other just the dream of boys and girls with the horses. So when we moved here, we told the children look, God's calling us to Texas, we're going to go and live there. I'm glad that you've had an experience of it. The first thing our eldest son said was, can I have a gun? And the first thing our daughter said was Can I have a horse? Because they both thought that's what you do in Texas.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I know that there were some moments where you realize just how much you didn't like change. Was that something that you knew back then when you're back in England, that change isn't something that I'm really comfortable With or was it those moments in Texas that made you realize, you know what change is not a big thing for me,
 
Sharon Tedford 
I think that I had had an inkling of it right before we left, we had put an offer on a house in an adjacent village to move from one village to the next so that we were actually closer to a school that would be better for one of our children, to have our kids have learning differences. And so this school had a unit, specifically for children who have dyslexia and other needs. And so we really wanted to be in that village. And we have sold our house. But I don't know what it's like where you live, but you have to be in a chain in the UK to be able to move from this house to the next house. And on the day that we were packing up and about to exchange, our house was all in boxes. The day that we went to exchange, our buyer pulled out because they'd said they had the money, but they never did. They never did. So that whole thing, when that fell through, we were all devastated. It was really difficult. But actually, even in that moment, I felt like God had been preparing me for change in a much bigger way that move from one village to the next village. I had found that difficult, we wanted to be closer to the school. And my friends in my village, we're going to be, I don't know, four miles away really nothing really, really nothing. But I'd struggled with that. Until I felt like no, this is what God's calling us to do. So I think that obedience of Okay, we'll move four miles down the road, was the catalyst for God saying, Okay, look, you didn't die. Let's do the next step and it was bigger.
 
Rodney Olsen 
A much bigger step. And maybe you can talk us through some of that you arrive in the US how quickly did you have to try and organize what we might call a normal life there in Texas.
 
Sharon Tedford 
Oh, my goodness, it was crazy. My wonderful husband had actually been working here in Dallas since May. So he's done about five months worth of work here while we were still living in the UK. And the company very kindly moved us. So we put everything of ours into a shipping container and sent it out four weeks before we came because it takes four weeks to get here. And we spent four weeks traveling around the UK saying goodbye to our family and friends. My husband is Irish. So we spent some time in Ireland. And some time in the south coast of England, I come from a seaside town Weymouth in Dorset. So I spent some time there, and homeschooling the kids while we traveled around. So when we arrived, our shipping container wasn't ready. And we had to live one month in an apartment in an adjacent town to where we are now. And we literally just had this is a bit embarrassing the 14 suitcases that we brought with us because we used every piece of luggage allowance that we could, because the kids were little and you know what it's like traveling with younger children, you need, my goodness, you need everything. So we had just that luggage and what was already in the furnished apartment. And I had to drive the children from one town to the next. And you know, in many areas that would be no difficulty. But this is in the Metroplex, I had to drive on roads that have seven lanes. And they were doing roadworks and it rained for the first time in October for they were saying it was something like the worst rain they'd had for 50 years. And you couldn't see the line markings. I can tell you, that's really good for your prayer life because I was driving on the wrong side of the road, with cars all over the place in seven lanes and you have to cut across so many lanes to get off to get to school, don't miss it, you're going to end up in another town that you don't even know. So it was all very, like I say very good for my prayer life. But pretty stressful. And I did have many the word with God about what are you doing? Why are we here? And you know, registering the kids for school. Everything was just so different. It was a big leap.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I believe that there was even this moment when it came down to such a simple thing as painting a room in your house.
 
Sharon Tedford 
Yes, that is so true. We moved into our home, which is lovely, and great. But the people before us had painted the main living areas in orange. And we were like, yeah, this is not really us. And so we knew that we wanted to change it but at the beginning, that's expensive. We just moved across the world that was expensive enough. So we waited maybe two years, maybe three years and then we had the money to do it. And so my husband's like, Okay, what color do you want and we decided on green, but then you know you go to the local store to buy, you know the little pots of paint. So we had like three or four different kinds of green and we painted big splats on the wall. But those flats stayed there for about six months because my husband wanted to move This choice with me together in a partnership. But I could not make a decision. I just couldn't do it. I didn't like the orange. But I couldn't choose the green. It's just it was so ridiculous. And after the six months, or whatever it was, my husband said, Okay, look, we can't just keep looking at these splats on the wall. Let's pick one. And I said, No, look, I'm done. I can't do this. There's been so much change. I hate change. I can't do this. You pick it. And so he kindly did, and we moved on and painted it and it was lovely. But in that moment, when I said, I hate change. God just rattled that around in my head for days afterwards for days afterwards. And one day I stopped. And I looked at that phrase that I'd said, and I asked God, why is this still rattling around in my head? I hate change. And God who is very kind and gracious, spoke so sweetly to me and said, If you hate change, how can you become like me? And in that moment, everything started to change. Even now, as I say that, it gives me goosebumps because it was one of those ebeneezer moments for me that I have laid down the stone of remembrance, because that was like, Samuel. That was a victory moment for me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Did you feel a little bit shortchanged in that? Moses got a burning bush that wasn't being consumed, and you got paint splits?
 
Sharon Tedford 
Yeah, I never thought of that. Yeah, I should have had a burning bush. And I actually know we don't like burning bridges in Texas, because they're turned into raging fires. So paint splatter, okay.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And all around this time as this is going on, are you starting to fit into the lifestyle there? Are you connecting with people connecting into a new church and getting to know people?
 
Sharon Tedford 
We did, and we didn't, I'm sure that any of your people who are listening who have sifted between cultures, know how difficult that is. I'm pretty friendly. And I like to chat to anyone. But it's difficult to go deep with people. People in Texas are renowned for being friendly. They, they really are friendly. But it's hard to then find people who have space in their life for you and who want to go deep with you. We did manage to find a church that we loved. And God was very kind that we were in that church by the December having moved here in October because my husband had actually already been church hunting before the family arrived. Before we arrived. I was actually invited to lead worship at the ladies Bible study. After my very first day there. It turned out that somebody in this mega church had a friend who I was leading their children in the Children's Choir in England, they used to run a church together in Hong Kong. When we arrived, she said, Oh my goodness, are you this family from this church? Oh, my goodness, my friends told us you were coming. And you're a worship leader. Can you do this? I was like, okay, so we were plugged in, we were in a small group. And there was many good things. But as the years went on, there was always something else that was new to learn. Because as our children grew, in the school system, particularly, there was a new way of testing, a new way of learning a new way of this and a new way of that, that we didn't know about. So it did kind of stay difficult. But because God had told me change is good, change is good, my heart was shifting towards allowing him to do these things, because His change brings us great strength. It makes us more like Him.
 
Rodney Olsen 
While you're having difficulty with some of these changes. How are the kids going? you saying that there's obvious differences in the learning and the testing and everything for them? But were they just adapting his kids so often do?
 
Sharon Tedford 
Yeah, rather embarrassingly, they did. Yeah. They made friends. And because of their British English accents, they made friends pretty quickly. The language thing was difficult. But we had some really funny stories about teachers being confused about what our children were asking for. My son left his outer garment in the classroom one afternoon and had to rush back in to get it before he caught the bus home. And he rushed into the classroom and burst in and said to the teacher, I left my jumper here, I can't find my jumper. And she just looked at him quizzically because a jumper is like a what a baby would wear a onesy you know, it's LinkedIn with your hands and your feet and just zip up the front. Because here they call it a sweater. So he had to then explain what a jumper is, you know, it's it's knitted, and you were on the outside to keep you warm. And she was like, Oh, you mean your sweater. So that, that and there were many of those? No, but the children really adapted fast. Our eldest got into American football, which was his joy and delight. And our middle daughter made friends with lots of American girls, which she'd always watched American TV at home in England. And so she was just lapping it up. And our little boy really was only four so he didn't know much different he loved the fact that we had such a big back garden and a swimming pool, which is very exciting.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So he you are in this brand new nation. You're you're learning all these things, but You're being very much accepted, and you're getting opportunities to lead worship, which is something that you did back home in England, is this giving you some sort of a certainty or some sort of a reminder that this is what God has called you to.
 
Sharon Tedford 
There were certainly steps that, that over and over again, we knew Yes, this is what God's called us to. Like I said, in our small group, those people became friends and family very quickly, once we found them, which was probably about eight months into us living here, one of our members, one of her brother, died very suddenly. And very tragically, he went to hospital with a headache. But it wasn't a headache. It was a brain aneurysm. And he passed away very quickly. And so we were able to gather around her. And in that kind of moment, you really know who your family is, we got very close to them. I had a hospital visit, I herniated two of my disks in my back, couldn't walk, I had to go to the hospital in the middle of the night. And it was one of these people that my husband called, and they came over, it was like midnight when the ambulance came to sleep here in our house. So that when the children woke up, they were with somebody who they knew and loved and trusted. So there's something really special about the family of God, that we can walk into a church pretty much anywhere. And know that because we love Jesus, we can love each other.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And all this time, you're still trying to deal with change, even though there are these little messages along the way that hey, Sharon, it's going to be okay. But I believe that there was a pivotal moment in 2014. Tell me about that.
 
Sharon Tedford 
Yes, that was incredible. I think as you say, God had just been reminding me over and over again, that changes, okay, changes, okay. And because of that little phrase, it was now rattling around in the back of my mind, it was in my mind. But it wasn't until 2014, as you say, it wasn't until then, that things started to come into focus. I went to a very large ladies event at a mega church just around the corner from where we live. And it was almost an accident. Of course, it wasn't an accident. But it felt like an accident that I went, a friend of mine called me the night before and said, The lady who I go to this conference with every year, mysteriously double booked herself. She doesn't know how she did it. But she's got to go to work. She was a cabin crew. So she couldn't back out of that. So I have a ticket Do you want to come? And I was very excited. So I went and my friend had booked seats, like you had to sit in row f seat three and four, whatever it was. And that's important in this story. So at lunchtime, there was there were probably I think 3000 women, there is a big conference, it was it was great. At lunchtime, we went out and had lunch and came back into the auditorium. And tucked into every single seat was a card. And on that card was a hand written word of prophecy. Now, you could say that those were placed randomly, well, the women and men who do that event, pray for an entire year. And ask the Lord for words of knowledge and prophecy and encouragement for the women who are coming to the conference. So as I said to you earlier, the seat that I was sitting in was meant for my friend's friend who wasn't able to go in, it suddenly became my seat. Well, this prophecy would never have fitted her friend. And when I opened it, and read it, I was absolutely gobsmacked. And I couldn't speak, which, you know, is unusual, as you can tell for me. And I was just crying. And when my friend read it, she started crying too, because it was so so onpoint, for what I've been through. You see, I haven't told you that. And part of our story was having been on this in this mega church and on the worship team and enjoying every second of it. In the middle of that we'd had some significant church hurt that had that we'd had to fight for, we'd had to fight for justice and truth. And this word of prophecy spoke to that almost word for word. And there's no way that anyone could have known that I was sitting in that seat and what had happened in my life. And that prophecy was based on Isaiah 61 verses one through four and that's what started my route to allowing change to be more than just for me,
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I'm sure that those verses have become more and more real for you. Maybe you can tell us what is encapsulated in those first four verses?
 
Sharon Tedford 
Yeah, actually, I did start off with the first four verses. And when I bought the prophecy home, I stuck it up on my wall and I was just Oh, it's amazing. It's wonderful. And I was just looking at the prophecy. And then one day I felt God say, you know, as it says in Scripture weigh it up, what does it mean? And so I got out the scripture behind this word of prophecy. And I said, Okay, God, let's dig and I sat down to write A couple of notes on these four verses. And after 58 pages of notes, I realized that God is doing something pretty special with this passage of Scripture. And as I've spent more and more time with it, I actually love the whole chapter. It's one of those chapters that should bring us all so much encouragement is actually the chapter that Jesus used in the temple in the New Testament in Luke, when he announced the beginning of his ministry, talking about the fact that every one of us is anointed. And then it gives us a great big list of what were anointed to do and every word, there are so many words of action. Through this passage of Scripture, I would love for you guys to just go ahead and sit down and read Isaiah 61, and pick out all the words of action, in this comfort, proclaim, bestow, you know, the Restore, rebuild, renew, all these things that God invites us to do in his name. And why can we do it, because as his people, we are all anointed by the powerful and loving Spirit of God,
 
Rodney Olsen 
I find it fascinating that throughout that chapter, and again, as you mentioned, now, Jesus picks it up in Luke, when he goes to the synagogue. But it's interesting that in this day and age where we're told to look out for number one, and number one is us, when we're told to seek our own highest good, that there's this chapter there. And it tells us that we're anointed to do all these things, which are basically, around serving, that's not a popular thing for a lot of a lot of people is it,
 
Sharon Tedford 
it's really not a popular thing. And here, there has become an attitude that if you stand on the stage, or you have a title, or you have an office at the church, it's your job to do that. And I'm going to pay you to do it. Don't expect me to get involved. And I think there's something really sad about that. And I believe that's why so many believers are weary, because we're not doing what we've been called to do. God has invited us to get involved because just as Jesus did, we need to serve, and we can serve with joy and it brings us joy to serve others. You know, there are so many ways that we can serve, it doesn't mean that you have to go and work in a soup kitchen. Unless that's what God's called you to do, then please go to that. But if God has called you to be a teacher, you are serving Him every day, in the way that you love those kids. If God has called you to sweep the streets, you are serving Him by maybe praying up and down the streets that you sweep, if God has called you to be a doctor, then you are able to reveal him through the way that you love and heal people through the gifts that he's given you. There is so much action, so much action in this chapter that we really need to step up. I want to invite people to think about how can you reveal God in your everyday What are you doing? How can you bring about change for others' good?
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you've gone now from this stance of I really don't like change, but I guess I'll have to go through it to our Yeah, changes probably good to now this point of versus coming alive to you and you realizing I need to seek change. Tell me about that change in your mind of going from I hate change to I need change.
 
Sharon Tedford 
It's difficult to really plot that, you know, I think because I didn't like change. God didn't make me change overnight, he didn't just snap his fingers and say you need to do this now. And sometimes he does that. There's nothing wrong with that. But for me, he knows me, spoiler, he made me so he knows all about me. And he just gradually drew me into more and more and more of this love, and search for change. And I think that as I've been able to share my story through concerts, and you know, writing whatever I've done, as I've shared my story, it has become more alive. To me. It's a little bit, like I just said, that's how God has called me to serve is to serve the church, to serve others to invite others up, to wake them up from being weary and afraid. And so as I've spoken that out loud, it almost puts it in front of me and becomes a mirror for me to see it myself. and that in turn, it just keeps the wheels turning. And it keeps me chasing after God in an excited way. I just love to see, people say I'm doing something new because I think God's invited me to this. I've been so blessed that every single one of my concerts, I can't think of one where this hasn't happened. My somebody will come up to me afterwards and say, Oh, I didn't realize that I could do that in God's name. I'm going to go and do that. Or I haven't led worship for years because something awful happened to me at church. I'm going to go back and serve my church in a new way or it has woken somebody up to what God is calling them to do and if it's just one at a time. That's enough for me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It is remarkable. The change that God can bring into our lives when we are resistant to it, but then we we walk toward it. And I just want to pause for a moment. And I want to actually read those first four verses. And I know that you now say that you, you want to embrace that whole chapter and, and everything that goes along with it. But let me just read. The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,  because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor;  he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;  to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor,  and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; to grant to those who mourn in Zion—  to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified.  They shall build up the ancient ruins;     they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities, the devastations of many generations.  That's purely inspirational, isn't it?
 
Sharon Tedford 
Isn't it just it makes me want to cheer? It really does. I want to shout and say yes, come on, let's restore, rebuild, renew, we can all do that. We have like five or six different decorations of trees around the house, because we say that to each other, and to the children, you're an oak of righteousness, God has planted you exactly where you are because he wants to display his splendor through you and it doesn't matter what season you're in. God wants to display his splendor through you. You know, we've just been through a crazy snowstorm. And the trees are beautiful in the snow. In the springtime, here, the trees are vibrant colors, because our springtime is very short. And so that forces the leaves to grow quickly. In the summertime, the leaves offer us shade. And you know the whole seasons. And in the autumn when the when the leaves fall. And of course, the colors change again. And it's really beautiful. In all seasons, those trees are displaying the splendor of Jesus. And that's what we need to do, no matter what our season is. Even if things are really difficult around us. We can still display the righteousness that comes from God, we can still display the goodness that comes from Jesus.
 
Rodney Olsen 
A lot of the people that you're trying to reach out to, and to minister to those believers who are weary those who really need some kind of hope. When they're feeling worn out and feeling forgotten. We have such a life giving message of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why do you think so many people end up feeling worn out,
 
Sharon Tedford 
I think we've put our trust in the wrong places. instead of allowing Jesus to use us as individuals, we have shifted our gaze to our leaders, and our pastors who we need and we love and we should support and we need to listen to them. But they shouldn't be doing it all for us. That makes us very, when we don't do what we're called to do. It makes us tired out, you know, action is invigorating and revitalizing. That's how you know if you have a little toddler who's like, I'm bored. I don't know what to do, then you find them something to do and life changes. That's what Jesus wants for us. He doesn't want us to just sit down and watch someone else working. He wants us to be doing what he's called us to. And maybe you're doing is to sit down and maybe just to sit with someone and listen to them pour out their heart or write emails of encouragement. I'm not saying that you have to go and do something huge in the world's eyes. We just need to respond to God's call, and then we won't feel weary, we will be revitalized by His Spirit. Because using his spirit, walking in his spirit, living out the life that he's called us to, is a way that we can be filled with joy and energy.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And those verses, you know, as I call us to stop looking inwardly and and start to look outwardly don't they?
 
Sharon Tedford 
Oh, without doubt, absolutely. Everything that this scripture talks about is about our neighbors. It's about drawing together our cities and our communities. All of us can say that our cities have a level of brokenness. It may be in the physical buildings, but it may also be in the hearts of the people around us. And God invites us to rebuild those ruins that you see people around you whose lives are ruined, how can you rebuild them, just invite them in for a cup of tea. That is a great way to rebuild someone's confidence. You know, we can see around us that maybe the whole the whole generation has been devastated. But that's why God's called calling us up, to reach out to those generations around us. We need to renew them, we need to rebuild, we need to restore the hope of Jesus, that people around us they are lost. We say that often that people around us are lost. But we can show them the way to the winning post, you know, to run the race and meet Jesus to meet Jesus here and now and have eternal hope.
 
Rodney Olsen 
As I mentioned earlier, you are a singer, songwriter. And you've touched on that as as we've chatted, and you've certainly had opportunity whilst in Texas to pursue that, to pursue your music to release a couple of albums. And I'm sure that that's incredibly satisfying. But often the music industry is a very self seeking industry, how do you ensure that you stay grounded within that? And that you continue that outward looking focus?
 
Sharon Tedford 
That's a very, very good question. I think for me, it has been intentionally gathering people around me, who I know will not blow smoke, and will speak truth to me. And who will keep me outwardly focused people on my American team and my UK team, that I mean, it's just small, it's just a small number of people, people who pray for me, people who I know would say to me, yeah, that's not really the right thing to do. I even have a friend who I've made since living here, who is an expert in social media marketing. And that has been a real struggle for me, because I have felt often I don't want to be doing social media about me, because it's not about me, it's about Jesus. And she's really helped me to recognize that actually, using social media can be a way of sharing the kingdom of God, if I do, indeed keep it about my audience and about Jesus, and not about me. So I have had people around me, who I know will keep my eyes focused on Jesus, even my producer, who is an incredible guy, a two time Grammy Award winner, he adores Jesus. And we never did any work in the studio without praying, and inviting Jesus to be present in the recording, which might sound a bit crazy to you. But we are asking God to be present in every area of our lives. And I asked him to be present in every area of my life, and I'm not perfect, I definitely fall over and hit my nose, flat on the pavement. But I my intention is to share Jesus with everyone who I meet, I really do want to reveal him through how I sing, and how I present my life and how I love my children. And how I serve when I'm out and about how I pray with the person who serves me lunch at a restaurant, I really want to be outward looking. And I pray that God will continue to keep that firmly in focus in my heart.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And it's not just about the music for you, I know that you released a devotional book alongside one of the albums. Tell me a little of the thinking behind that.
 
Sharon Tedford 
There's a bit of a funny story in that, in order to help your producer know how your song should sound, you go into a studio and you say, this is the story behind it. This is what happened. This is why I wrote it. And then I play it for him and say, I want this genre, this field is that editor. But one day, I think we were three songs in to the album. And I told him the story behind this particular song. And he just was like, stop, stop. And I thought, Oh, no, he hates it. He doesn't want this one, which he has every right to say. He said, okay, you are such a good storyteller. I need you to write that in a book. And I just looked at him and I said, john, Goodness me. We're making an album, there's a time for writing a book. And he said, No, I think it's a thing. You have to do it. So we finished the day I came home and it's best to record late at night. So I came home and crawled into bed next to my husband. And he was like, oh, how was your day in a sleepy voice? And I said, Oh, you'll never guess what john said today. He said, I should write a book about all the songs and the stories and scriptures behind the songs. And my husband, in all his wisdom said, Well, duh. Like, what do you mean well duh, because he was asleep, didn't want to wake up and chat about it then. But it became something really, that God put on my heart and actually on someone else, someone else said the same thing to me. They had one of the stories behind the song and said, You need to put this in a book, people need to hear the stories. The book is every chapter is the story and the scriptures behind each one of the songs. So you can sit and read the stories and hear from Jesus as He spoke to me through those stories, and then use the album to allow the song to minister to you. So you can have your own little time of worship as if I'm in the lounge with you or wherever you're sitting.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's a wonderful concept. I believe you've also started your own ministry 61 Things tell us about how that began.
 
Sharon Tedford 
Again, it just kind of crept up on me a bit like the loving change. It started because of the album when the album was being released. As we talked about it with my team, it did become obvious that there was more than just releasing an album. Because I have been speaking and teaching the Bible bits and pieces around around the world now, for for many years. And obviously, as I said, leading worship as well, it seems like there was more than one string to my guitar coming along here, and that we needed to gather it all together under one umbrella. So that when I introduce myself to people or so that when people call on me to, so that I can serve them, they can see that it's more than just under I don't want to just come to sell my album, I want to come to encourage you to rise up and all of the stuff that we've just been saying.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And there's a podcast that goes along with that ministry. Tell us a little about that.
 
Sharon Tedford 
Yeah, that's one of the joys of lockdown. And my co producer is Gary Dowell, who's been in radio and TV production for many, many years. And he's actually on my UK team. And before he called me, for about a year, I felt like people say to me here, because of my English accent, which really I can do nothing about it is what it is. They say, Oh, I could listen to you read the phone book? Or would you? Would you call me up at nighttime and read me a bedtime story, I'll just give you a children's book to read to me. You know, lots of jokes like that. And so someone said, you know, you should do podcasts. And I was, I really felt like, God kept poking me with that thought. But I really don't like technology. I'm really not very good at it. I can plug in my microphone, and I know how to do bits and pieces. But at the time, when I started thinking about that, there was no way there was just I was just resistant. I kept saying to God, I do it. But I don't know how to do the technology. And then my co producer called and said, Look, Sharon, I don't want you to answer me now. I want you to pray about it. But I think I want to start a podcast. And I want to do all the technical stuff, because I love it and I want you to be the host. Well, I was just like grinning and crying all at the same time on zoom, because he lives in the UK. And I said, Gary, it's okay. I don't need to pray about it. God's already been poking me. Let's do this. And so through lockdown, we we spent five or six months working on it from across the ocean. And on October the sixth, which was my 50th birthday, we released Episode One of God In the Ordinary and it's been going great guns since I absolutely love it. It's so encouraging to hear people's stories and how they reveal God in their ordinary everyday lives.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I love the fact that you go for everyone's unique story. But there's also a common theme that runs through that you asked people to comment on maybe you can explain that, to me.
 
Sharon Tedford 
It was the concept of what we were going to do on our podcast came first. And then one day as Gary and I were chatting through the concept of God being revealed in people's ordinary everyday lives. They're not celebrity Christians. They're just regular people living their lives. It dawned on us that Oh, my goodness, this is what Isaiah 61 is. And so we put it all together it I mean, it seems really obvious. Now it's kind of embarrassing that we didn't see that at the very beginning. But here we are. And so what we do is we ask our guests to have a look through Isaiah 61. And see how they live that out in their own lives. And it has been so incredible. At the very beginning, Gary and I were like, oh, what happens by the time we get to Episode Six, someone's going to tell the same story, we're going to hear the same thing over and over again, know, every single guest. We're into the double digits now. Every single guest picks out something different. And God speaks to them differently through this passage. And isn't that just like our God, you know, His Word is living and active. And it's relevant for all of us. So I absolutely love it. When our guests come with, oh, this is how Isaiah 61 speaks to me, and how I use this scripture to reveal God in my everyday
 
Rodney Olsen 
if people are wanting to start listening to God In the Ordinary, or to even find the Ministry of 61 Things. Where can they discover you?
 
Sharon Tedford 
Well, you can find me at 61-things.com. And on my website, you can find there's a tab that takes you to God In the Ordinary. But the podcast is on pretty much every podcast platform. So you should be able to find us easy.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's an easy one to find God In the Ordinary well worth listening to, as you say, different perspectives on that Isaiah 61 passage as well as exploring people's unique stories as they encounter God in the ordinariness of their lives. It's It's a great Listen, and I would encourage people to do that. We'll put a link to that in the show notes at bleeding daylight. dotnet. But Sharon, I just find it amazing that for someone who started their story, disliking change that you're now bringing change that you're bringing change, as you encourage people to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to captives to open the prison to those who are bound to continue to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, that you're comforting those who mourn. You are bringing great change into other people's lives. And I just want to thank you for what you do. And thank you for spending some great time with us here on Bleeding Daylight.
 
Sharon Tedford 
 Rodney, that's so kind I've absolutely loved every second. Thank you so much for having me.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

This episode is confronting. It’s the story of a young boy’s nightmare of abuse but thankfully it doesn’t end there. Forgiving the Nightmare is Mark Sowersby’s journey to forgive those who allowed the abuse to take place, and even the predator who stole his childhood.
 
His message is clear, no matter the shape of your nightmare, there can be forgiveness and even joy.
 
 
 
https://www.forgivingthenightmare.com
https://www.facebook.com/forgivingthenightmare
mark@forgivingthenightmare.com
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
This episode is confronting. It’s the story of a young boy’s nightmare of abuse but thankfully it doesn’t end there. Forgiving the Nightmare is Mark Sowersby’s journey to forgive those who allowed the abuse to take place, and even the predator who stole his childhood.
 
His message is clear, no matter the shape of your nightmare, there can be forgiveness, and even joy.
Please don’t keep this important episode to yourself. Share it with others and connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
 
Make sure you don’t miss future episodes by subscribing to Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts.
 
Mark Sowersby has been married for more than 17 years, has four children, and has been an ordained Christian minister for over 25 years. He admits that life has been good to him. But that doesn't mean that it's been without its dark times. Only a couple of years ago, he faced the darkness, then journeyed through a time of great healing. These days, he shares his story through his ministry, forgiving the nightmare. It's my privilege to introduce him to you today. Mark, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Mark Sowersby 
Hello, and thank you so much.
 
Rodney Olsen 
The difficulties and the struggles that you have faced in life started well before you were even born, take me back to that time and tell me what you know of your mother's life before you came along?
 
Mark Sowersby 
Well, thank you for asking me that question. I believe every story is connected to somebody else's story and my story is connected to my mom. And I think my mom in her life carried many wounds and pains and hurts. And that just kind of floated into everything in her life, including her children, and some of her poor decisions, seeking hope of seeking acceptance and seeking love that pushed her into many dysfunctions and hurts again, spilled into our lives. And she met a man that was many years younger than her. She was looking for love. She was looking for hope, but that man became an abuser. He abused my mom, he abused my family and he physically sexually, emotionally verbally abused me to. So that's how this story begins forgiving the nightmare. forgiving the nightmare has so much in it. My testimony personally is about how I overcame abuse, how I overcame neglect how I overcame all the pains and hurts of one's rejection by parents and loved ones but the story of forgiving the nightmare is much more than that. I believe that all of us have probably walked through a season, a situation that's a nightmare. Regardless of how that came into our lives, maybe through abuse like mine, or disappointment or divorce, or rejection or death or sorrow but regardless of what it is, we've all had to live with a nightmare that would love to shackle us love to hold us down, love to lie to us, because that's what the enemy does lies to us. But through God's grace and through mercy, lots of prayer and hard work. We won't forget the hard work, a lot of prayer and a lot of hard work, that God gives us victory. God gives us hope, by His Word and His Son, Jesus Christ.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Your mother married quite early, and I believe you had a couple of siblings before you came along. Tell me a bit of that story.
 
Mark Sowersby 
My mother was a woman of her generation. She desired what many women of her generation did. She graduated from high school. It was the 50s. She graduated in 1958. She was married in 1959. And my brother came into the world in 1960. Which kind of sometimes in our culture and our season seems a little different. But in hers, that was very common. That's what she desired. She married her high school sweetheart. right out of high school. She wanted to be the mrs. She wanted to be the wife. She wanted to be the mom. But unfortunately, that high school sweetheart that Prince Charming, would turn into somebody who would be another person in my mother's life that would hurt her, neglect her and reject her, as he found comfort in other woman's arms. Has he found pleasure in in lust and sin, hurt by mom. And he stole from her. Her self worth her value that just continued to push her into poor choices for the rest of her life when it came to decision making. But that relationship, that first marriage, my mom did have two children. I have an older brother and an older sister. They're a bit older than me. But that that marriage did produce my older brother and my sister who are loving the Lord today and are serving God with all that they have.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Then you came along but not by that first man who was the father of your brother and sister. What happened before you came along?
 
Mark Sowersby 
Well, after the divorce of my mother's first husband, she went back home had no place to go. She went back to her mother's house. The marriage was over. So here she was mid 60s. She was a divorced woman felt like she wore The Scarlet Letter around her neck if you would went back home because she needed shelter. She needed support she needed hope. Her parents took her in her parents loved on her and supported her. But she needed to find a job. She was she found a job and it was a factory job. And in that factory job. Of course another man would come into her life and promise her everything she hoped for another male would come in and say that she was beautiful and perfect and life would be good. And she found comfort in that man, she found hope in that man. But that man unfortunately was married to another. And he deceived her and lied to her broker. And I am a product of that relationship. So I, my father came in and abused my mom. Also, he preyed on her pains, and he preyed on her hurts. And he also abused her by lying to her promising her the moon, but just giving her selfish desires.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So your mother has been through these two devastating relationships and we can imagine that this man was already married, so he had no intention of maintaining a long relationship. And so now he's out of the picture. And you're growing up in the home of a single mom and your, your older brother and your older sister. What happens there because now you're on the scene? Is there another relationship that comes at that point?
 
Mark Sowersby 
Yes, there's another relationship that comes, you're right, I was growing up. and in this situation, at my grandmother's house, my grandfather has already passed. So my grandmother was alive, and we kind of grew up and that's the life I do. Grandma, my mom, my brother, my sister, my aunts and uncles from the neighborhood. That's all I knew. And then another man came into my mother's life. And that was the man I was referencing earlier, the man that came in that was much younger than my mother, he came in, and at that time, my mom was just so hurting, she was so broken, so afraid, she would have done anything, she allowed her life to become, just hurt and abused. So that abuse in that hurt, reflected in many decisions that my mom made, are reflected in her health decision, or social decisions are emotional decisions or spiritual decisions, that pain from those two relationships. The first being her highschool sweetheart, that she has so much hope and loved that pain, and then my father coming into the picture and breaking her heart. It's the time the third band came into her life. She was already a shell, if you would have herself, I don't think my mom at that point really understood what love was. I think that she just was an enabler. And she accepted enable for herself, and she gave enabling to others. And that third man would come into her life, I was seven years old. And that third man would come and he was the abuser. He was the one who abused my body, the one that would steal like, destroy us, as a family because of his own pain. So yes, the third man was the one who, who hurt and broke and one who abused me he was the, the fulcrum of the the nightmare that I speak of in forgiving the nightmare.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Was there abuse for your siblings as well or had he just more or less zeroed in on you seeing you as the youngest and more vulnerable one in the family?
 
Mark Sowersby 
Exactly, exactly, I was the only one that had the physical abuse. I would say when abuse is in the family it abuses everyone but I was the only one was attacked in a physical way, in a sexual manner, in a emotional manner. In a physical manner, I was the one that was stabbed and beaten and broken and raped. But I think abuse affected the whole family. One of the reasons why I think he did not abuse my siblings is because there wasn't a large age difference between my siblings. And this man. Again, he was several years younger than my mother, I think it was almost 17 years younger than my mother at the time. So he's closer to my brother's age than he was my age. So I think at that point, my brother was transitioning out of the home, my sister was not far behind him transitioning out of the home. They were in their later teens, they were ready to go out. I was the minor I was the young one, I was the one that was the innocent one that was broken, and hurt. But again, I would say that when abuse comes into a home, even though I was the one that was physically abused, abuse, affects everyone in the home.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Were there others aware of the abuse that was going on? Did you feel that you could confide in someone else? Or was this a burden that you had to carry alone?
 
Mark Sowersby 
It was the late 70s and we look back in the awareness, the attention, the support that we see in our culture today for abuse victims, for it to have advocates and have channels to be able to report and share just simply wasn't there at the time? I think that time in our culture, at least the part of the world I was living in, when things happen like that. It was mostly handled in families behind closed doors. You didn't tell anybody, I think now we look at society and society says, oh here, there's advocates and channels to be able to share. So yes, at seven years old, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't understand. I didn't have a place to comprehend, my body was just ravaged. I was just attacked in a way that, I did not know how to understand it. I was threatened by by abuser, that if I was to share this, I would be taken away, I would be injured, I would be hurt, I would be rejected. So of course, not only did I have this abuse, now to deal with, but also the fear of leaving what I knew leaving the situation leaving my mother as only a child. So, yeah, I didn't think I can confide in anyone, I thought I did something wrong. I think as a child, I reasoned with the child's mind and again, the awareness that we see today wasn't simply there back then.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And obviously now you understand that the fear that he was using against you is a common tool that predators will use. But at that time, it must have seemed so real for you. How did it feel to, to live in that fear constantly to know that when you came home from school, that it might happen all over again? How was it living in that tension constantly?
 
Mark Sowersby 
You know, that's a great question you asked me because it became a part of my reality, it became a part of my world, I don't think there was a divide between Oh, today, I'm thinking this way, tomorrow, think another way, it just became a part of how I live my life. So I had to figure out a way to deal with it maybe an unhealthy way, maybe an immature way. But I think that we just had to deal with it. I did not realize there was any other way. I thought this was my plot of life. This was my situation, this is how I had to deal with it. So I think as a child, you reason like a child, I guess you put it in your mind, in places you kind of place all by home life is like this, in my school life is like that, am I but again, I think as a child, you just have to deal with it. And you build situations, to protect yourself. You live in an imagination you live in the what ifs you live in the day that you hope that this will all end, you look for somebody you could share with you look for a protector, if you would, a hero, somebody that would come beside you, and help this all end.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And at this time you're you're living through what to you is normal. When did it occur to you that this was not normal, that this wasn't the way that things should be?
 
Mark Sowersby 
Well, yeah, I always knew it wasn't right. I just, I just knew that this was just a part of who I was. And obviously it wasn't right for my body to be ravished. It wasn't right for my abuser to do these things to me to sell me and to prostitute me to other men who abused me and I just knew that this was incorrect, it was wrong, but again, at 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 years old, there was no voice. I wasn't strong enough, I was already beaten down. I already was held back. But I always knew that someday this had to stop. I did reach out periodically to people. I remember reaching out to my mom at one time, and I think the shock of the story, she just could not comprehend her own self. She brought me in the abuser into the room. And she asked the abuser not to do that to me anymore. And he promised he wouldn't. And of course, next day, I got a severe beating for sharing and I got more threatened. So again, that just enhanced the rejection or enhance that no one will ever truly believe me, no one would ever be there for me. Until a time where I was about 14, 13, 14 years old. I was with my cousins. And we were building forts and playing games. And I remember sharing with my cousins who were about the same age as me. And we were, we were outside and they shared everything that went on. And they told me I should go tell their dad was my mother's youngest brother, my uncle. I went into the home and I'll never forget. I looked at my uncle that was after a long day of work. And I went to him and I shared details and experiences that a young person shouldn't be able to explain or share. And he looked at me and he said Marquis, because that's what he called me. Said Mark. Yeah, you telling the truth? I said, I shure am. He picked me up. He wrapped his arms around me told me he loved me. And next thing I know I ended up spending the next year and a half living with him. He became my he became my hero. He became a protector. That afternoon, my abuser came to pick me up at my uncle's house. My uncle looked at me and by this time, he already told my aunt and my aunt was comforting me and we were in the home and my abuser came to pick me up my uncle with the calmest face in the world. walked over to the closet and took out a bat and Let's say he chased that abuser away that day. My uncle served in Vietnam, never saw that kind of side of him. He was always a gentle giant. But he definitely defended me that day and never, never laid a hand on the abuser. But definitely let the user know that he was not welcome. And after that day, the physical abuse stopped, and it never took place anymore. And for the next year and a half, I lived with my aunt and my uncle,
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm wondering how long it took you to actually trust your uncle, because obviously, your trust has been broken. But was there that instant connection, knowing here is a good man, here's someone who will protect me or did it still take you a while to feel Yes, I can fully trust this man. He's not like this, this other man that I've known.
 
Mark Sowersby 
My uncle was somebody that I can always trust. Again, his children were just about the same age as me. So the three of us kind of grew up together, I would say, I grew up closer to a brother, to my cousins that I did just a cousin. My uncle was younger. So you know, my cousins were right, they're the same age bracket. So when he would take them, he would just take me and the three of us would go out hot to holiday together, we'd go camping together, we'd share time together, because we were all about the same age doing the same thing. So I did spend time with my uncle. So there's already a trust in Him. Probably in my younger years, not knowing my own birth father, my uncle's relationship, in a lot of ways was like a father's relationship in a healthy way, he comforted us, he supported us. And I knew that he loved us.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And were there other males in your life at that time or around that time that that you could put trust into to start to understand what a real male role model should be.
 
Mark Sowersby 
At that particular time, the probably the strongest male model I had was my uncle. So not so much outside our family. By that time, my grandfather has already passed my brother who is a good man, but he was a young man, and he was already out on his own away from the family. So really, my uncle at that time, was the only male figure that I had in my life that I could trust. That was an adult that I could look to for wisdom, support and guidance. Not until I became a Christian, not until I asked Christ to be my Lord and Savior, did I find other men in the church, other men that would come beside me and guide me through life with a big hug and a swift kick?
 
Rodney Olsen 
I do want to explore that, that coming to faith moment for you. But before that, I'm interested to know what's going on with your mom, at this time, you're saying that this predator has been chased away. You're spending about a year and a half with your uncle and with that family. So what's happening in this intervening period with your mom?
 
Mark Sowersby 
Well, at that time again, my mom's life was so broken. My mom was already just a shell of herself. I think you could see the hurt my mom's face. The rejection, that she felt her whole life was always about her. And it was always evident in her. So even though that we my my uncle took me in, even though she knew why there was just this denial, if you would, this didn't happen. It's not as bad as maybe it could be. And maybe it's my mother's own reasoning by letting me live with my uncle. She was protecting me. But she'd never truly ended the relationship with that abuser. And I think because she was abused by him in her own way. Again, I don't think what they had was a love story. I think what they had was an enabling story. I think my mom was so afraid of being alone in her life. She was so afraid of being rejected, like she was when she was the young bride, living her three years by herself that her whole family would walk away from her that she was do anything to keep some form of acceptance, no matter how dysfunctional it was. So my mom was still lost in our own pain. And this past year, we lost my mom. I remember sitting at her bedside, and she confessed some things to me, telling me how she asked me to forgive her, which I already did, because of the grace of God. She asked me to pray for her, which I did. But she told me that she only had one light, one love in her life. And that was her first husband. And when he broke her heart, that pain, lived with her forever. It's not an excuse. It's definitely not an excuse, but it is a reason. And I just hope I can understand that reason. Even though I was the blunt of The pain in the poor choices. I choose not to hate my mom, the world psychiatrists in the world, the world counselors tell me I have a right to be angry, I have a right to hate, I have a right to, to cast my mom aside. And maybe that's true. But you know, I only had one mother, I did not know my father, again, born from an affair. My father rejected me before I was even born. So I only had one mother, I only had one person that was my relative if you would, other than my brother and sister. So I wanted to know, I wanted to know where I came from, I wanted to know who I was. So what's their healthy boundaries, of course, was their decisions I made about my relationship with my mom to keep it safe and healthy for the rest of my life. Yes, I did. But I wanted to know her. So I had to come to a place to learn how to forgive her. And I could only learn how to forgive my mom, my growing growing close to Christ.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I imagine it's understanding that brokenness and understanding that your mother was in brokenness, this wasn't done out of a sense of wanting to hurt, but it was done out of brokenness that you can forgive and, and offer that forgiveness to her.
 
Mark Sowersby 
That's right. I, you know, I think if my mom's brokenness, in her Oh, by be rejected, in her own life, by being afraid in her own life, she I think she didn't have the foresight to see down the road, she saw what was immediately in front of her. And immediately in front of her was this abuser, that was lying to her, telling her that he's the only one who cared about her that he was the only one that was going to be there, that all her children would reject her, all her children would leave her. And she could not have the sense to look beyond that, because of fear and hurt. Again, it's not an excuse my mom, she even admitted that or at her elder years of what she did was wrong, and how she did not stand up for me or her children. But I think I'm glad even though it's not an excuse, even though it's not a healthy reason, at least I understand. There's a reason why my mom was caught in her own pain, and an abuse victim in her own way.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And it was in those mid to late teen years that you came to faith. Tell us a bit about that story.
 
Mark Sowersby 
A lot of things float around my life, not only was my abuser, somebody who abused my body, but he brought much dysfunction into our home. He used alcohol, he used drugs. And he kind of brought in that that side of society around our family. So as a young man, I already knew the pitfalls if you would have drug use of abuse. And as many of my peers were going out testing, trying new things, drinking and smoking and doing all kinds of things. I already kind of knew where that life lead I already is a part of that life. I wanted nothing to do with it. But my Achilles heel was girls, I guess it was important for me to have a girlfriend and important for me to have a girl by my side, being abused by a male. In my own understanding. I needed to have a girl by my side to prove to myself in a certain way that I I was normal, if you would. So I remember, we were living in an apartment complex at the time. And of course, the lifeguard at the pool was a beautiful girl, at least to my 15 year old eyes. She was beautiful. And I would go to the pool every day. And one day she said to me, do you want to go to the church with me? Boy, I didn't take me two seconds to say yes, I ran home. I got dressed for church and I came back and her her boyfriend picked me up to take me to church that day. It was a midweek service. I was a youth group service. I walked into the youth group and I saw people who look like me. It was the late 80s. They had long hair and Jean jackets. The youth pastor had long hair, and they talk like me, and they listen to music with rock guitars and drums. And, you know, I felt like, like there's people that I could understand. They asked that service if people wanted to make Jesus Christ and Lord and Savior. I didn't really understand that people wanted to hug me. And I wasn't really into that. So I remember saying, I'm not going to go back now because I didn't like them. Because I just didn't understand it. Well come to find out that youth pastor lived in the apartment complex that I lived in, and him and his wife would see me and they'd invite me. They invite me all the time to go back to church. And one day I went back with them. And that that day a young man asked me if I wanted to ask Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Savior. We sat in a car, and he led me in what I would come to know as a sinners prayer. He led me into asking Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Savior and I did it The next day it was a Saturday morning. And I woke up with a bunch of cars, beeping at my house, and we are all out front of our apartment complex. And I remember there's four or 5, 6, 7 cars beeping the horns, calling me to come climb a mountain, we have a mountain in our area called Mount monadnock. It's in New Hampshire. In United States, it's a mountain that the tourists climb. It's a fun climb, and they're all beckoning to me. Come Come climb this mountain with us. They had to be 30, 40 kids. And boy, not only did I find Jesus, but I found acceptance. And I ran into that youth group. And I ran into that church, and it truly became my life for the next 10 years.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Some people say that when they have that moment of understanding who God is through Jesus, and they accept Jesus as being the Lord, that they just know that there has been something change. And I understand that, but they don't feel a whole lot different. And yet other people say that there's this real sense that something has changed for young men like you, who was carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders with all that it can be for. What was that experience like for you?
 
Mark Sowersby 
Well, I think when I accepted Jesus Christ, there was definitely a shift, I could tell something was changing. I could tell that I had a friend at that point that you now I look back, and I understand I have a friend that sticks closer than a brother, I have a friend that would never leave me nor forsake me. I didn't understand that scripturally back then. I didn't have the words to express it but I just had a sense that I was no longer alone, that I had somebody that was going to be with me always. Again, my young brokenness, found hope in Jesus Christ. Not only the Lord find me, not only did his grace pour out to me, not only was his love made aware to me that day that I said, Jesus come into my life. But instantly, there was support instantly, there was just people coming beside me to walk with me in this journey of life. So I think those two things happened all at once. There was a spiritual awakening and there was a social or a, an emotional awakening that I was, I had people on my side. So again, I was only about a year away from the abuse, if you would about a year and a half away from the abuse, always coming together. Now, I'd say that was the beginning of my story, is that I had to learn to die to self I had to learn to repent, I had to learn to trust God, I had to learn to pray, I had to learn to seek. But those things, all were coming as I got to know the Lord, but that first moment, there was this transformation, I at this moment where God just filled my heart filled my life, with hope, with love with grace. I didn't know the words, then I know them now. But there was this transformation, if you would, internally, internally, and then the journey of transformation, externally.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And that journey continues. And we'll fast forward. I mentioned in the introduction, that you've been married for quite a number of years now you have four children, you've been a pastor for many years. And so it would seem that the past is behind you. You're moving on. But then a couple of years ago, you had to go through a process of healing. What brought that on? You know, you're
 
Mark Sowersby 
Right. You know, I have been able to put many things under the blood, if that's what we say, in our circles, sometimes you put it at the foot of the cross laying at the altar. These are things of my past. I will say this for you, brother, that a lot of people would they walk through a journey like I've walked through, if we want God to take it away so bad. We pray, we ask, we seek we confess we stand on, we claim scriptures. We say, Lord, take this pain away, Lord, take this sorrow away, or take this hurt away. And I'm here to tell you, brother, that God has never taken that sorrow away from me. And I know it's kind of sounds funny. How can you tell me that you're forgiven? How can you tell me you're delivered when the sorrow has not been taken away? That sorrow is about me often. And it's always beckoning me. It's like a comfort to me, come back, come back. Live in this dysfunction. Live in this brokenness, live in these lies. what God did for me, even though he did not remove the sorrow of the past, His Word and His Spirit became bigger. So let me explain that I didn't have it removed. But God became bigger than the lies of my past bigger than the hurts of my past. Bigger than the rejections of my past. God's word, God's Spirit, God's love, God's grace, became larger. It's kind of like the gods the bigger about and Gods the bigger hope Gods the stronger, stronger place than what happens. To me in my past, but there are times in my life where on certain days and certain moments and certain situations where it'd be so easy just to slip back into those old ways to slip back into that old thinking slip back into those old practices. It's so comforting, because I know my parameters there. It's been such a part of my life for so long. But at that moment, God shows up and says, I'm bigger, I'm stronger, I'm mightier, I'm more loving, I'm more merciful, I and he's in those things become strangely dim, those things become strangely dim in the light of God and the promise of Jesus, and the hope of the Spirit. So, that journey started for me. When I was in Bible school, I accepted Jesus Christ, I was about 16 years old, I accepted Jesus Christ. And I felt, just a few weeks later, at a youth group meeting, I felt like the Holy Spirit just came upon me and called me to go to Bible school. I remember laughing because one of the casualties of my life growing up was my education. I'm dyslexic. And of course, I tell people, I survived my childhood. I wasn't raised. I didn't have the skills to get through high school. I didn't have the supporters. But I did. I graduated, they put me in remedial classes and, and I was able to graduate, but I never thought college was for me. I ended up going to college and a great testimony there of how God opened up doors and set people beside me, so I could finish my college in one day while I was speaking in college, the Lord put in my heart that I would share this testimony called forgiving the nightmare. And I remember laughing, saying, Lord, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to get through this. And the Lord has brought me on a journey since then, in how to how to step out and walk in this promise that he's given me called forgiving the nightmare. So again, I said earlier, my nightmare was my abuser. My nightmare was the child molestation that I had to deal with. But we all have nightmares. And what the unforgiveness and hurts of my childhood was doing was shackling me to my abuser was shackling me, to my past was shackling me, to my hurt, it was identifying me, as a broken person, it was identifying me as a victim. And I remember one day at an altar, as the Lord came to me, and through His Word through His Spirit, and he spoke to me and in my heart, and I remember the Lord said to me, Mark, you're not a victim. And I remember saying to the Lord, if I'm not a victim, what am I, all I know how to do is be a victim. I know the life of a victim. I know the language of a victim. I know the manipulation of a victim. This is what I know, this is who I am. This is always one for me. It's got me, it's, it's gotten me gain in life, it's protected me. And the Lord said, I'm just going to strip that away from you. You're no longer a victim. And I was afraid, because that's the only life I knew. And I said to the Lord, if I'm not a victim, what am I? What will I be, and don't listen to me, you'll be victorious, you'll be victorious in me. I wish I could tell you it happened instantly. And I walked away, it was all done. That began the charity, the journey of forgiving the nightmare where I had to learn to forgive my abuser, I forgive my mother, forgive my family, forgive the ones who rejected me, I learned how I had to learn, truly learn how to accept God's forgiveness for me. I know it was there. I know I was receiving it. But I had to learn to live in that forgiveness. And let those poor habits of my life My poor habits of of manipulation, or habits of the brokenness that guided me for so long, I had to allow those things to become gone, let those things become small, let those things become empty, and stand on the promises of God. But again, those things still back in those things still call they're so easy to go back to. But Jesus has bigger, God is bigger. Amen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I know that as humans, we always compare. So I can imagine that there are people who are listening at the moment who think, Well, I haven't been through even half of what market is. So therefore, I really shouldn't complain. I've got nothing to deal with. And then there are people on the other side saying, you know what, that sounds horrific, what he's been through, I've been through worse and, and surely God can bring healing to that. So I guess for people on either side who are trying to compare and saying, no, that kind of healing isn't there for me? What would you say to them?
 
Mark Sowersby 
I say that healing is there for all of us. That healing is promised in God's word. The journey could be difficult. You know, I think of Jacob and the Old Testament. Y'know, Jacob means, deceiver, liar cheat. And that was his name. It's because he deceived, he lied. And one day he knew that he was going to go see his brother. But he had to meet an angel first. And he met that Angel. And when he met that Angel, the Bible tells us that he wrestled with that Angel. He wrestled all night long, so much that the angel even touched the socket of his hip. And as they were wrestling, the angel said to him, let me go, let me go. And he said, I'm not gonna let you go until you bless me. The angel then would say to him, you're getting a new name. You no longer Jacob. But now you're Israel, in Israel means promise. His email means hope. So he went from Jacob, the deceiver, to Israel, the promise. And I think sometimes for those of us that have been hurt in life, and have this situation, regardless of how it came in, maybe it was much more dramatic than my situation, maybe it wasn't as dramatic. But however pain came into your life, however it manifested before you, maybe you lost somebody, and you're mad at God, maybe you had went through a divorce, and you're upset, you weren't supposed to go through that divorce. Maybe it was a bankruptcy or, or some kind of disappointment, but it has shackled you to this understanding of your life being broken. But I want to let you know that God is still in the business of making people Israel, taking people to the promise changing our past and not letting it be be our identity anymore. So yes, is there a lot of tears involved? Of course, is there a lot of Is there a lot of wrestling a oneself wrestling with God? Yes, of course, do you have to learn to die every day, crucify yourself, as, as Peter Paul would say, crucify your flesh this year is because the old ways are constantly calling. And it's so easy when we get when we get hurt to allow those old ways, those old patterns of thinking to rise up within us. But when we get a hold of God, and let Him truly be the transformer of our heart and our mind, and we stand on the promises of God, and confess them, even in the midst of the battle, but when we do, by the grace of God, we can walk into the promises. So forgiveness is there. For all no matter what we've been through. And we were set free when the Lord has set us free. We are free indeed.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm sure that there are people thinking that they've been through their own nightmare. They've been able to leave that in the past and walk forward and and experience this forgiveness that you're talking about. But they're still continuing to carry a heaviness. They're still continuing to carry a weight on their shoulders. And yet, in forgiving the nightmare, you're talking about not just forgiving abuse or forgiving people that have done you wrong, but actually walking in that forgiveness and, and walking in joy. And I'm sure some people will be wondering, is it really possible, even though we've walked beyond this, that it could be replaced with joy?
 
Mark Sowersby 
I believe it is because it's the joy of the Lord. The joy of the Lord is my strength. Today I put on the garment of praise, the Bible tells us I put on the garment of praise. So the spirit of heaviness will be lifted off. It's not an immature joy. It's not a joy, of, of rejection of one's past. It's not a joy of of dysfunction. It's not a joy to say all those things, did it really happen? Because they did. It's a joy in Christ. It's a joy in hope. It's a joy that those things no longer have to be a part of me. It's a joy to know when they rise up. God has made a way for me to find a place of hope in Him. So the joy I have is not one that I have forgotten what happened to me. It's not one that I have not truly understood what happened to I know how bad I was broken. I know how bad I was hurt. I know those who meet. And those are real present issues. But my joy comes from God. My joy comes from knowing the Word of God, knowing the Spirit of God, knowing the hope of God, and knowing that God is the one who can get us through. God is the one who has made a way. God is the one who gave us his son Jesus Christ. So my joy is found in him. So it's not a joy of immaturity. It's a joy of Christ.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I think it's very telling that your ministry is not called the nightmare forgiven as if it's over and done with but it's forgiving the nightmare. It's an ongoing process. And I'm sure that you're still continuing to walk through it knowing that you're way ahead of where things were before you started this journey. And for some it it's an understanding Meaning that this journey may go on for some time. But there is joy in it. As people continue to walk in that forgiveness as they continue to understand what that means and go through that process. What's the hope that you would hold out to them?
 
Mark Sowersby 
The hope I hold up to is the same hope that I have found. Jesus, Jesus Christ is the only way to find true, true hope, true forgiveness. True. True blessings is only found in Jesus. And that's the hope that I have. That's the hope that I hold on to. That is my new identity. That's the victory that I have. I am no longer a victim. I'm victorious, but it's not my victory. It's Jesus Christ victory that he gave me that he died for me and made a way for me. So the hope I have the joy I have the peace I have is not because I did something right. Not because I'm better than anybody that because I have figured it out. The joy and peace I have is found in the promise and the hope of Jesus Christ, that when I am week, he is strong, that he has transformed me and made me a new man. He's taken me from Jacob and made me in Israel. And when the pastor raises up, I remember he's made a way for me to hold on, when the old ways try to show up. God has made a hope for me to go forward. So my promise, my hope, my trust is in Jesus Christ.
 
Rodney Olsen 
If people are wanting to be in touch with you, of course, I'll put some links in the show notes at pleading daylight dotnet. But where's the easiest place to find you and to learn more about how they can forgive their own nightmare?
 
Mark Sowersby 
forgivingthenightmare.com is the best way to connect with us. We're also on Facebook, @forgivingthenightmare. You can check us out there by forgivingthenightmare.com or you can go there there's a website there. There's an email there, mark@forgivingthenightmare.com you can email me at mark@forgivingthenightmare.com that's the best way to check us out either by forgivingthenightmare.com or on Facebook at forgiving the nightmare.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Mark. I want to thank you for your honesty for your bravery in telling your story. And I know that it is going to make a difference in many people's lives. So thank you for your time. Thank you for the integrity that you've shown throughout. And I look forward to sharing this story with many people. Thank you.
 
Mark Sowersby 
God bless you. Thank you.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

Terry Nightingale is a pastor and author. His new book focuses on how we deal with past failings, disappointments, and broken dreams. How can we be free of a damaged past and walk into a fruitful future? How do we use what has happened to move forward?
In a world that either demonizes past failings or tries to sweep them under the rug, Looking Back to Move Forward takes the more biblical approach of examining and learning from our mistakes to move forwards into a more fruitful future.
 
http://terrynightingale.com
https://www.facebook.com/terry.nightingale.54 
https://www.facebook.com/bitesizechristiandevotions
https://www.amazon.com/Looking-Back-Move-Forward-Fruitfulness/dp/194627772X 
https://www.kharispublishing.com
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Something a little different today on Bleeding Daylight as we talk to a pastor and author about his new book which focuses on how we deal with past failings, disappointments, and broken dreams.
 
How can we be free of a damaged past and walk into a fruitful future? How do we use what has happened to move forward?
 
Please subscribe to Bleeding Daylight to ensure that you don’t miss an episode, share episodes with your friends, and make sure you connect with us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
Most of us would have heard the saying everyone has a book in them. While that may or may not be true, I do know that not everyone has a good book in them. Thankfully, Terry Nightingale not only had a book in him, he had a good book in him and even better, he took the time to write that book. In a world that either demonizes past failings or tries to sweep them under the rug, Looking Back to Move Forward takes the more biblical approach of examining and learning from our mistakes to move forwards into a more fruitful future. Terry, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Terry Nightingale 
Hi, Rodney. Thanks for having me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
When did the idea of this book first start percolating in your mind?
 
Terry Nightingale 
Well, I guess I would say this book has been percolating for some time for some years, I have found through my Christian life, it hasn't been success followed by success followed by success followed by success. And I've often faced discouragements and setbacks, in ministry and in personal life as well, for really, a lot of that time, I have wanted to try and make sense of them. I haven't wanted to just sort of push things under the carpet and say, okay, you know, I just need to move on. Now, you know, the past is in the past. Let's just move on. I really wanted to say, Lord, you know, in praying, God, why did that happen? What am I meant to learn from this? In that sense, this book has been in my heart for a long, long time. But it was only really a couple of years ago that I started to write it down and put it on paper. Well, not really paper, but my computer. Yes.
 
Rodney Olsen 
If you're writing a book about embracing mistakes, and learning from them, you've got to be honest enough to admit that you do make a few mistakes and in the book, you do go through some of the things where you have fallen short, yeah. How hard is it to make those public?
 
Terry Nightingale 
When I was writing it, I didn't feel I was being particularly candid about some of my stories. But interestingly, at the moment, I'm listening to an audio version of the book, and I'm hearing some of the stories again, and I'm thinking to myself, Oh, my goodness, I can't believe I was that honest, when I when I wrote that. But I think it is important, to be honest, you know, I think if you're in ministry, or particularly if you're in leadership in some way, I don't think it's helpful to people to say, I've got it all together, I think what's maybe more helpful to people is, actually, I know what it's like to be really discouraged or to be really disappointed, or for things not to work out as I'd hoped, or, or that that dream hasn't come true yet. I think it's actually much more helpful to be able to say, Well, yeah, I really know what that feels like, too and this is how I started to cope with it.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to ask you about some of those failings in a moment. You can recount some stories for us. But there's a theme in some Christian circles, that we should be always living in victory, and we're constantly moving to another higher level. And we keep moving on in that way. Your book certainly encourages Christian growth. But it seems to admit that it's a lot more complicated than some would have us believe.
 
Terry Nightingale 
Yeah, well, I think you've only got to read the book of Psalms to see that that's true. If you track the Psalms, particularly David Psalms, David was not living in victory constantly. You know, there were many times that he had incredible victories. And of course, you know, his most famous one is his slaying of Goliath. But there are other times when Wow, he's going through a tough time. And a lot of his psalms are reflecting that, in fact, many of the lament psalms are David having a really bad day, telling God how he feels, but then coming to a place of faith.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And it is interesting that in our churches today, we don't tend to go there. The psalms are the songs that that could be sung. And yet we don't generally have these songs about Lord, you're so distant from me. Why? Why do you leave me in this pain? Why do you think that is? Is it just that we want to sort of shut that out? Is that what's going on?
 
Terry Nightingale 
There's a really good question. Maybe there is part of us that wants to shout that out. It's certainly easier to preach a message of victory and success, and everything will be fine. But I think in order to preach anything positive from the scriptures, we have to recognize where we're at sometimes. And sometimes we need we need to acknowledge, actually, things aren't fine today. And God, how do you want to get me through that?
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I suppose for some, that's the disconnect that they find with churches is that we hear about life is going to be wonderful. Well, I've tried it. I've tried to do this God thing, but it hasn't worked because I still have bad days. So is there an opportunity for us to be more honest within our churches?
 
Terry Nightingale 
I hope so. And I don't know, you know, maybe in our churches, we need to give that opportunity to be more honest by us as leaders being more honest. And there's a balance in that isn't there, you know, because nobody, nobody wants church leaders to sort of stand up in front of a microphone and then fall apart. You know, we still need to be those that are drawing on the Lord for the strength and wisdom that they need. But I think equally, somebody who is always sort of pretending that they've got life all together all the time, is equally not helpful to people.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Maybe you can help us with some of the stories in your book where things haven't gone quite to plan.
 
Terry Nightingale 
Well, I can remember a time when I was running an alpha course. Now people will tell from my accent that I'm from the UK. This was not long after Sue, and I came to Australia. And we were part of a church. And I was running in Alpha Course. So if people aren't familiar with Alpha, you know, it's a very accessible way of investigating the Christian faith. So perhaps for people who are not yet Christians, and I asked a person in the church who was a sort of a fairly youngest Christian, I guess. And so there were still areas of their life that God was working on. And one of the areas of the life of their life was was one in terms of honesty, with how they acquired some things in their life. Let's say they acquired some things not quite legally. There was one night when I couldn't attend the alpha course. So I said to my friend, would you be able to cover for me? Would you be able to do it? He said, Yes, he said, and we find that we find. So the evening went by, and by all accounts, it seemed to be a successful evening. And then I heard from some of the guests on the course, that this friend of mine had given away stolen goods to people on the alpha course. And I thought, Oh, no, here's the reason why I wrote about this is because my response wasn't very good. I was furious. I was angry with this guy. And the next opportunity, I had to talk to him, I took it. And I took it with both hands. And I went up to him. And I just told him when I thought, I thought, I was very upset. My response was so bad, in terms of lack of grace, you know, lack of kindness, really over the top that our friendship was effective, probably for two or three years. That time later, he and I met at a social somewhere, and we made up and I apologize for the way I've handled the situation. And he said this to me, he's now bearing in mind, this guy is huge, you know, now I'm five foot six, whatever that is, in metric. This guy was six foot monster, you know, he was enormous this guy. And and he looked at me, and he's, and he was very grateful that I apologize to him. But he said to me, if you hadn't been my pastor, I would have asked you where you stood. In other words, I'd been so rude to him. And I probably would have deserved that decking to be honest. But I had to go through a process with all of that, of looking at, well, you know, why did I react like that? You know, why did I? Why was I lacking in grace? You know, what is it God's wanting to teach me about handling difficult situations?
 
Rodney Olsen 
The interesting thing I find in that story is that it's very easy to justify your actions, because he shouldn't have been giving away stolen goods,
 
Terry Nightingale 
Right.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And so it's easy to say, Well, look, he got what's coming to him. And we hear this more and more, even in Christian circles of, well, they deserve it. There's, you know, they weren't asking for forgiveness. And so therefore, I can't forgive and, and they deserve everything that they get. But that's not what we're told to do. No,
 
Terry Nightingale 
That's right. And I think that's really important. And I think some of my experiences have been examples of that, where it would have been easy just to, to feel justified or reacted like that, because that person did that or said that. But I am always responsible for how I respond to a situation, you know, and I think whatever comes our way. And Gosh, I'm not saying I do this perfectly got I'm still very much on a learning curve here. But I am realizing that whatever happens, I am still responsible before God to handle that in a godly way. And that's that's sometimes where it's really tough.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We read through the book in and we see those examples where you've been honest enough to admit that, yeah, I messed it up, I got this one wrong. And sometimes it's taken you a moment to realize that and sometimes it's taking you longer. So I think that most of us can identify with that. But you don't just leave it there. It's not about personal experience, but you actually take his way back to the Old Testament in the Bible. Yeah. And share a story that says, hate looking back isn't a bad thing.
 
Terry Nightingale 
Yeah, so I've been really influenced by the book of Deuteronomy. And Moses is actually talking to the second generation Israelites after their 40 year wanderings in the wilderness. Were like flies on the wall listening to Moses, speak, speak to them. And and as Moses recants things have happened In the last 40 years, we travel back in their memory with them to relive some of those stories. And so I talk a lot about those stories. And it's interesting because the book of Deuteronomy really is a book called looking back in order that the children of Israel can move forward move forward into the promised land. Many will know the story, of course, that they would have taken the promised land Not long after they left Mount Sinai when they had the 10 commandments given to them. But as spies were sent into the land, then they came back with the report that there were giants in the land. And so the whole nation freaked out basically, and said, This is too big, we're frightened, we can't do this. And so because of their lack of faith, God's judgment on them was that that generation would pass away in the desert, and their kids will grow up, and their kids will enter the land 48 years, actually, 38 years later. And so what Moses does in the book of Deuteronomy is he gathered, gathers and more together. And he says, Let's relive some of these stories. And let's look at how your parents failed. Let's look at how leaders failed. Let's look at some of the mistakes that occurred in the past, let's let's look at what didn't work out. And let's meditate on those things for a moment. Let's also reflect on the greatness of God, and on the faithfulness of God. But until we do that, we're not going to move forward really, with God's blessing and and with the fruit that God wants to bear. So that story is had a big influence on me with all of this.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I do find it interesting that Moses here is talking to people who have no part in stopping them from from moving forward. And yet, he's saying we've got to own this collectively. And we can look to various instances, even in our own recent history, where people are saying, our people should just get over it and move on. And yet the Bible is saying something different. Why don't we embrace that message?
 
Terry Nightingale 
I don't know. I guess we don't like the the discomfort, do we? I really hear your point, actually, about the grown up children. They weren't actually the ones that failed. But actually they they put themselves in the same space. And they said, No, we're part of this too, you know, we need to almost repent on behalf of our parents, you know, it's a community thing reminds me of a story actually, of a class, I can't remember where this class was, I think it was in an African country somewhere where the children were studying for an exam. And all but one of the children pass the exam. And somebody was visiting the school and they were saying, congratulations, this is wonderful. But all of the children said, No, we failed. And they said, What do you mean, nearly all of you passed? And they said, No, because one of us failed. We all failed, we're in this together. And I thought that was powerful. In some ways, you know, I think it's easy to sort of apportion blame to people, isn't it and say, Oh, it was back then it was them, you know, but actually, we are God's people in a community. And we are responsible for each other and it's not about my personal ministry, or his personal ministry or her personal ministry, actually, we are called together to be the church,
 
Rodney Olsen 
I guess it's easy for us to dwell on the things in the past that haven't worked. How do we actually get ourselves out of that loop? For those that were sitting under Moses teaching? How did they resolve that issue? and decide to move forward?
 
Terry Nightingale 
Yeah, so I do talk about this. And I think one we invite God into that space when we are meditating on things from the past. So it's not just thinking about something and and and then feeling discouraged about what's what's happened. It's actually intentionally inviting the Lord into that into that space and say, God help me process this helped me to learn what I'm meant to be learning here. I believe if if we're doing that with an honest heart, you know, with a with a genuine heart, then then he will lead us to scriptures that are appropriate scriptures that will help us I talk about repentance. So for example, there's the story of Jonah and the whale, which we're all familiar with. And in chapter two of Jonah, we get a glimpse of Jonah's repentance, because he ran away rather than obeying God, but actually looking at his prayer takes us on a journey of, of a good way of praying through something that's happened in the past and how we deal with it so so journeys prayer is really, really useful. So it's inviting God in terms of the Word of God is inviting God in in terms of praying, for example, with Jonah, you know, he starts off basically telling telling God what a bad day is head, and maybe that's a good start point. A good start point sometimes is to say, God that happened, and it really sucks. I hate it. This is how I felt at the time. God I'm really struggling to make sense of this. Please help me. An honest expression of how I felt about something but Jonah moves from that and he moves actually to acknowledge Where he could have done better. And and he's eventually worshipping, you know, at the end of it he's worshiping. So it's going through that process with God really starting off. This is where I'm feeling God. But where God wants to lead us, I believe is where we are expressing trust in Him, and we're worshiping him. And he's enabling us to put it away, learn from it, and then move forward.
 
Rodney Olsen 
How do we get beyond I guess that the polar opposites of being caught up in this morose introspection, where we're constantly going back, and we're constantly beating ourselves up for past failures? Compare that with some who just say, I'll look that was in the past, that's forgiven, let's just move on and try and ignore it completely. How do we strike that balance?
 
Terry Nightingale 
Well, I think the balance is we do go back. But because we are going back, the intention is that we can leave it behind because God has taught us the things he wants to teach us. If we don't go back and evaluate things in the Lord's presence, then we we run the risk of not learning the things he wants to teach us, and then perhaps repeating the same mistakes, or finding the same things are happening to us. If we go back, and we just feel sorry for ourselves, but we don't actually learn what God wants to teach us, then then we're just having a pity party, really. I think God wants us to take us back so that we can learn the lessons, and then we can put them back when discouragements come or we're tempted to think about those things. Again, I think we can genuinely say, No, the Lord's dealt with that. And he's taught me the things. I'm not going to get down about that. Because I'm now going on with him, you know. So I think the Lord wants to bring us to where we can genuinely say the past is in the past. Now, forget about it.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You've written this book, but your day job is as a pastor. And so some of the examples that you're using in the book, as you've already explained with with one of them are examples of you in ministry, where there's been that failure, how have those things helped you? As you've gone forward? What are some of the lessons that you've learned from those mistakes that have helped you to, to go forward?
 
Terry Nightingale 
Interestingly, where as I was writing the book, there were some things that I experienced, that were happening at just the time I was writing a particular chapter. You know, it's amazing when the Holy Spirit does that. So I remember a particular time, when I think I was writing about prayer, and particularly about worship, and there was one day that I had an issue I had to deal with, that was a difficult issue. And I didn't know what to do, I think, a common prayer for pastors, sometimes his Lord, I don't know what to do. I think it's good sometimes for us to admit that we have days you know, where we genuinely come to God and say, Lord, I really have no idea how to handle this one. Well, I had one of those days, where I was just praying, Lord, I just do not know what to do. And actually, what I ended up doing was threw a CD on the turntable, and it was an old Chris Tomlin album, and I just started worshiping, and just started worshiping. And as I was worshiping, I had tears running down my face, I was just declaring the greatness of God. One of the songs was that wonderful song, indescribable, you know, just wondering, marveling at God's creation, and just all the songs really seemed to minister to me as I worshipped him. And I felt a real burden lift as I was just worshiping God, God gives us the gift of worship, sometimes just to get our perspective, right. You know, when we're worshiping, we're not, we're not staring at a problem, we're actually putting our eyes on God. Immediately after that time of worship, nothing had changed, but my heart was lighter. And I and I felt that I was trusting in God more. But interestingly, out of the blue, I had a phone call with somebody later that day, and that phone call was the beginning of the resolution of the problem.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So we have this opportunity, when we don't know where to go, that we can begin worshiping in whatever way that is meaningful for us to worship God, we can worship, and that will start to resolve issues, certainly for ourselves, and in this case, resolving the issue materially as well. I know that you share another story about being thankful, and about being grateful where again, you can be caught in a situation that leaves you feeling down, and yet we turn our eyes toward heaven and things start to change. Maybe you can share that story with us.
 
Terry Nightingale 
So is the story of when I was much younger Christian, a student in my summer vacation, and feeling very down one day, and very discouraged. I was being paid to weed a garden. You know, as a student, you take any job to earn a little bit of money. So I was weeding this garden. I was having a bad day. I was having a black cloud day and the Thought just hit me quite randomly give thanks. And I thought, where did that come from? So I started giving things I started thinking of things, I could be thankful for food on the table, this friend, that friend, the fact that I enjoy music, just random things, simple things, I started giving things. And I had this extraordinary experience of every time I thought of something to be thankful for. Other things started popping in my mind that I could be thankful for. It's like I pushed the door open. And then other doors were opening. And, and I was starting to think of lots and lots of things that I could be thankful for. Literally, five hours later, I was still thinking of new things to be thankful for. And I got on my bike at the end of the day, and I'm rode home on cloud nine, I was like, E.T. on the bike, you know, with that famous shot of him floating over the night sky. Again, that taught me something that there's power in being grateful, being thankful. And at times when we don't think things are going very well, actually, maybe they're the times to be giving thanks. And you know, God says, This is my will for you that you give thanks. in all circumstances, he says that in one Thessalonians, I believe he gives that to us, because he knows that that's good for us. It's good for us to be thankful.
 
Rodney Olsen 
If we are people of faith, if we are people who follow God, then we believe that things are going on, in a spiritual sense. Because we can try to come at past failures and, and improving going forward in all sorts of supposedly practical ways. But if we leave out the spiritual, then we're missing something. And a lot of what you're talking about here, is actually including that spiritual so there are practical steps, but they lead to things happening in the spiritual.
 
Terry Nightingale 
Yes, psychologists have found in their studies that people who are thankful in their demeanor in the way that they they do life, usually are stronger or more resilient people. The trouble with that is though, is who we giving thanks to, you know, we might have a diary of you know, I'm thankful for this. And that's a good thing to do. But actually, where where God comes in is when he's the one we give thanks to. And so as we give thanks to him, not just being faithful generally, but actually giving thanks to God, we are inviting the Holy Spirit into that, that space in our lives. And it's the same with worship, isn't it? You know, it's not just singing songs to make me feel better. It's actually singing songs to God and inviting him into where I am right now in this thing I'm going through.
 
Rodney Olsen 
But of course, if we were created to worship, if we were created to be thankful, then these are basic spiritual principles that will play out in our lives.
 
Terry Nightingale 
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? We know these things are in the scriptures. But how many of us actually do it? And I know, if I'm having a bad day, I still have to make myself do these things, because oftentimes is not natural.
 
Rodney Olsen 
What are some of the other areas where you found yourself failing, and yet, you've learned that lesson and moved forward from it.
 
Terry Nightingale 
One example would be if I felt that I've needed to say something to somebody that maybe a gentle challenge or something. So this is something that may be pastors or those in ministry would be familiar with, you know, something is sits inside of you that says, you know, I'm, I heard that person say this, or I heard that person do this. And I think perhaps, as part of my pastoral care, I probably should say something just to draw attention to the fact that that, that wasn't helpful to that person. Or, you know, sometimes we need to say things bring correction to people in a humble way. Well, some of the mistakes I've made in the past have been where I've, my example, with the very large young man who nearly knocked me out would be an example of that, where I've just reacted. And I found that if I have got any lack of peace in my heart, that is the wrong time to talk to somebody. So you know, if I'm aware that some somebody has done something, said something and I, I feel I should intervene in some way, if I have got any kind of anger or or whatever it is even lack of peace, it would be a mistake to go forward because I would be doing it out of my own self rather than out of God. So, so what I try to do now, and I'm still wearing big metal plates, but what I tried to do now is wait until I've got that peace, so that hopefully, anything I say is, is from God and not my own emotions.
 
Rodney Olsen 
If we grasp onto this idea that we should be looking back, we should be looking at where things haven't gone well, so that we can repent so that we can learn the lesson that God is trying to teach us through that, we could end up on a crusade to make sure That every one is a reminder of their past failings. But what you're saying is, it's still got to be done in love. If we are bringing something to someone's attention. If we're, as the Bible says, bringing something to a brother, it's still got to be done from the right heart, not just our desire to catch them out.
 
Terry Nightingale 
Exactly. I think a good prayer to pray is, you know, when we are in pastoral ministry, and we do have that biblical command to sometimes go to people and say, Come on, we need to talk about this. I think the first prayer to pray is actually Holy Spirit, would you do something in them? Almost that I don't need to do not I mean, I think that's the first thing is to, to pray that God does something. And, Lord, if you want me to say something, then I will but give me the right words and make it the right time. But if we are eager to say something to somebody, then maybe that's a sign that we shouldn't, if that makes sense. I remember seeing a brother many years ago, behaving in a way that wasn't appropriate. And, and I was a bit cross with him. And I was very eager to put him right. And so I prayed about it. I said, Lord, just give me an opportunity to talk to this person. And you know, God never gave me an opportunity. And and I think what he was saying to me is, Terry, you are the wrong one to do this, you know, your heart attitude is not right. You just want to tell him off and maybe look good in the process. But so, first step, I think, pray for the person. And maybe God will do something without you. But he usually does a better job.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You said that this book is a good one for those in leadership, to learn these principles and to be able to, I suppose, take their congregations through through learnings. Do you think that that is something that we sometimes need to do to have leadership's of churches or pastors to say, Okay, today, we're going to look back at some of the things that have gone on in order for our congregation to move forward.
 
Terry Nightingale 
Wow. Yeah, that's a really good question. I think yes. You know, repentance is not just a personal thing. Sometimes it can be a community thing. You know, maybe it can be a, you know, corporately, we made this decision. But you know, years on, we're not sure if we did make the right decision. Maybe as, as a body of people, we need to repent to the Lord together. Yes, it's a really good question. But I can't think of a of an example where where our church has done that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And, of course, as you say, this is a book that is helpful for leaders for their own ministry moving forward. But I see throughout the book, that there are not only lessons for leaders that as you've taken on, but there are lessons for us personally, and a lot of those lessons that you've taken on personally. So this is a book, I would imagine that people, whether they're in leadership or not, are going to draw strength from and and find a way forward to be more fruitful.
 
Terry Nightingale 
I think my publisher was slightly frustrated with me, because they said, right, who we're going to target this to, you know, what's the target audience? And all I could come up with was, well, I think any Christian could benefit from this. So very vague and very broad. But I think you're right, I think, if we're a follower of Jesus, there are times when we don't get it right. Or there are times when we have questions. Or there are times when we have dreams that may not come true, or may not come true in the way that we hope they weren't, you know, all of these things happen to all Christians. So hopefully, there's a message message in there for everyone.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And you touched just there on those dreams that don't come true. And that's often the case for people that it's not really that they've done something in error is not something that they've messed up. But there are sometimes dreams that reside within us. And sometimes we feel this is a dream that has been planted by God. And yet it doesn't come to fruition. How do we actually reconcile that if we are to look back on that, in order to move forward in order to be more fruitful? How do we deal with that? Yeah,
 
Terry Nightingale 
This this is a biggie for me. I spent quite a lot of time thinking about this and writing about this. On one hand, absolutely. Let's be prayerful about asking God, God, what are the things you want me to do? I love Ephesians 210. You know, we're God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, to do good works that he prepared in advance for us to do. So. There are things that he places on our hearts, things he wants us to go for fantastic. But sometimes we can have an image in our head of this is the dream I'm going for. We set ourselves on a journey and God's in it. But sometimes things don't work out as we'd hoped. I talk a bit about dreams because I've certainly had some dreams that haven't come true. So for example, I was very into the Christian music scene as a younger man and did a lot of worship leading at different churches, and would write songs, worship songs, and some of those songs were sung in my local church, which was a real joy. But I had this dream that my songs were going to go on. All over the world, I was going to be the next Chris Tomlin before Chris Tomlin was even known. But that didn't that dream never came true, none of my songs got published. And I don't know why that's the case. But looking back on that it didn't stop me from writing. It didn't stop me from worshiping God with songs that he'd given me. It didn't stop me from encouraging others who have that gift and trying to help them. And in fact, that brings me on really to the next point, and which is that sometimes God does give us dreams, but is actually a dream that's not just for me. You know, in a relay race, we pass on the baton to someone else. And I think that, you know, we are created to be part of a faith community, you know, when God gives us dreams, they are personal dreams, but we are part of a community. And I think God has purposes for that community. And maybe the dream that God places on my heart is something that is going to come true. But maybe he's calling me to pass the baton on. In other words, because I have a love for music, because I have a love for creating worship songs. Maybe I'm passing that on to others. And maybe some of them will enjoy having songs going around the world. For example, my own son has sort of inherited that. And he is a very talented songwriter, maybe his son, they've just got a new baby, maybe his son will grow up to be a worship leader, maybe this his songs will go around, who knows? All I know is that I know God, please put something on my heart. But it may not be that I see the fruition of it. It may be that I'm passing the baton on.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And we certainly see that in the story of Moses that he had to pass the baton on, it probably would not have been his first choice. He wanted to get into the promised land, but that wasn't going to happen. And he he recognized that he was passing the baton on how much of that? Is there in that story? Yeah, so
 
Terry Nightingale 
I do use that as an illustration. It's really interesting, because Moses is quite reluctant at first, as you say, but you do you see him preparing Joshua to to lead the people into the land. And Joshua, of course, does a better job because Moses is not an army commander, you know, so God knows the best leader anyway. But Joshua is, you know, a much better person in leading a nation in battle. The other area that I found myself thinking about is what is the eternal perspective in all of this. It's not just about me, and my personal goals. And it is much more about me being part of a faith community. And it's even more about being part of eternity.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Your book, Looking Back to Move Forward hasn't been out for too long but I know that there's already been a few people that have been reading it around you guys. What has the reaction been so far?
 
Terry Nightingale 
Two nice comments have been made that have been said several times. One is easy to read, which is lovely. So I tried to avoid too many sort of long words in it, because I didn't really know that many long words. But I knew I was dealing with some theological concepts. And I didn't want to make too academic there, put it like that, really, I wanted it. I wanted it to be thorough in terms of biblical exegesis. But whatever knowledge people have of the Bible, I wanted to make it accessible to everybody. So people have kindly said that it's easy to read, which is good. And the other thing they've talked about is how, how candid I've been and how honest I've been and again, that's nice, nicer people to say. In fact, some of them are quite shocked by it, I think, saying, oh, my goodness, you're really honest about some of my family members have said that? Oh, that's honest. And I don't know, you know, me,
 
Rodney Olsen 
I think that term, easy to read can be deceptive. Because we think that that means that Oh, yeah, breeze through it. And there's nothing challenging in there. And while I would certainly agree that it's very accessible and easy to read from, from the language, being able to grab the concepts that you're putting out there, there is still a challenge in there, that if we are to take what you're writing seriously, that there is an opportunity to do business with God. Have you found anyone who's come back with with stories of saying, that kind of brought me on down? And I've, I've had to do business with God since?
 
Terry Nightingale 
Yeah, no, I haven't had anybody say that yet. One or two have said that it is challenging. But I guess, as you say, it's only been out a short while. So we'll see. I hope. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, that's why you write things. You write things in the hope that God uses it in some way. So I think that would probably be the best thing long term is if I'm hearing down the track, that people are saying, I just needed that at this time in my life, you know, that would be wonderful.
 
Rodney Olsen 
The book is available right around the world through places like Amazon, where people can pick it up as well as if they wanted to order a copy from you. I'm wondering if perhaps people are thinking yet sounds like I'd like to read it, but I would actually like to get to know you a little bit better. First you do write some bite sized pieces that might be give people an introduction, tell me a little about that
 
Terry Nightingale 
That's called The Best is Yet to Come. Nothing to do with American politics. Yeah, just call them bite sized devotions really takes four minutes to read them. And just really something to encourage people in their day. It usually got a little story in there or just look at a particular passage of scripture and just a few thoughts. And again, you know, easy to read, but there's a challenge there each time as well so designed to serve the busy Christian who perhaps needs a bit of help having a bit of time with God every day.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So if people are wanting to grab those bite sized pieces, or are wanting to look to get the book, where's the best place that they can go?
 
Terry Nightingale 
Okay, so the devotions, the bite sized devotions are on TerryNightingale.com. You can find out more about the book on the publishers website, which is Kharis Publishing. So that's kharispublishing.com. And there should be some information there but I think there's there's information on Amazon as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We'll put links to how to get in touch with Terry in the show notes at BleedingDaylight.net But, Terry, I want to thank you for your honesty. I want to thank you for your time and being part of Bleeding Daylight.
 
Terry Nightingale 
Thank you, Rodney. Thanks for having me.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

Tammy Becker slipped into a 6-day coma following surgery. Her doctors had no idea what was happening or how to bring her out of the coma. She thought she had dodged a childhood illness but several decades later, there was no way to dodge the surgery that went so horribly wrong. Since that time, Tammy has begun reaching out to help others.
 
 
 
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/youministries
https://www.facebook.com/tammybeckercoaching
 
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It’s another episode of Bleeding Daylight and I’m so glad you’re listening. Please subscribe to ensure that you don’t miss an episode, share episodes with your friends, and make sure you connect with us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
 
Today’s guest slipped into a 6-day coma following surgery. Her doctors had no idea what was happening or how to bring her out of the coma. Her remarkable story in just a moment.
 
My guest today thought she had dodged a childhood illness but several decades later, there was no way to dodge surgery. That's when things went horribly wrong. Since that time, Tammy Becker has begun reaching out to help others. I'm looking forward to exploring her story on Bleeding Daylight. Tammy, thank you for your time.
 
Tammy Becker 
Thank you for having me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
To fully understand your story, we have to go back a number of years take us back to that young girl who loves sport describe your life in those days.
 
Tammy Becker 
Oh, yes, I was a sports enthusiast. Anything I could do and accomplish and move on to the next. That was me. If I felt like there, I had nothing else to learn in a sport, I was begging my mom to put me on something else. And so I was from one sport at age four from tap dancing into moved into ice skating. And then as I got into grade school, I began in track, a little bit of basketball. But that wasn't my thing. But just I experimented with all kinds of sports truly love sports.
 
Rodney Olsen 
What do you think it was back in those days that that caused you to continually challenge yourself? Where did that influence come from?
 
Tammy Becker 
Well, my father, I would say, My dad always instilled in me that no matter if I was a female, no matter how tall I was going to be, no matter anything, I could come my way in life that I could do anything that I set my mind to. So from a very young girl, a very young age, I had a perfect to me role model. I went out and I just explored life just like he told me to do.
 
Rodney Olsen 
That must have been incredibly comforting. Also, for your mom, knowing that there's a man in the house who believes that women can be what they want to be.
 
Tammy Becker 
Oh, absolutely, and she she was for it all the way. She encouraged me. Well, except when, you know, my dad helped me get a motorcycle for my first vehicle. My mom wasn't too keen about that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Now, of course, you're growing up, and you're still just very young, or very young teenager. And I believe you had an accident when you were playing sport one day,
 
Tammy Becker 
What happened was, as I was doing the high jump at a five foot two is all that tall I am. So I was a high jumper, believe it or not, and I was high jumping and landed wrong on my neck and when I got up off the mat, I couldn't move my neck and I had extreme pain, just shooting down my spine, and just excruciating pain. So I went home that day, they sent me home, and my mom decided I better stay home, they better get me into the doctor, the doctor then suggested that I go to a chiropractor. And so we went into the chiropractor's office, and there was an X ray sitting up on the wall, and it was an X ray of somebody's back that looked like a backward S and my mom is just staring at this X ray. And I'm staring at the X ray. And my mom goes, Wow, she goes that that poor person with a back like that I can't imagine. So little bit later, you know, the doctor comes in. And he continues to talk to my mom and then said, Well, I see you can probably have been looking at this x ray, and this is Tammy's back. And all of a sudden, time stopped for me right at that moment. Did he say to me, I was thinking Did he say that's my back, everything went to a blur. Everything was in a big cloud. And I didn't know at age 13 what was happening. The next thing I remember hearing is surgery, and seeing a specialist. And so everything just became just a huge cloud over my head and I didn't know what to do. I looked over at my mom, my mom was crying. And basically from that day, that is the only thing I can remember about that diagnosis.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's a fairly horrific diagnosis when you imagine this young girl who's so into sports and wanting to achieve everything to suddenly find that there's some some basic structural problems with your back. What did it actually mean for you, you say that the doctor was talking surgery. What happened from that point?
 
Tammy Becker 
Well, from that point, we did go to see a specialist. The chiropractor did fix my neck, by the way, but then we went on to go see a specialist and at the Phoenix Children's Hospital. I can remember my mom and dad were going in I remember them talking about surgery. When I go back and I read my mom's notes, I see that I had, I believe it was a 58 degree curve at that time on the top. And then the bottom curve was somewhere in the 50 range. So if you think of the backward S you go backwards on your back, so that top curve was 50, at the bottom was somewhere around 50. Those are major curves. So everything was scrunched together, they were talking to her about surgery. And at this time, the surgery technique was called putting a Harrington Rod in. And they called it that because the doctor that developed this process, his last name was Harrington. So they wanted to do a complete back surgery to straighten my spine out, put this pole to give you an idea, a long rod up and down my back and I would be in a cast body cast and in bed for a year. Now that was the process back then, you know, almost 40 years ago. So as you can imagine, I was talking to my parents, when we left, I was basically screaming to them and begging them and crying not to have me get the surgery. I said, How, how come you think I need the surgery, I can do all these sports. I don't have the pain that they're talking about. I don't want to be laid up in bed. I said, basically, I told my parents and I have a note to this day that I wrote them that I will not get the surgery, I will run away. And of course, that was the mindset of this very young girl. Because she felt like she was getting her whole entire life wiped out from her at that very moment. So my parents did a lot of praying to God. And I went to my parents at one day, and I says I just want to tell you guys something, I am a sound, mind and body. I know, I'm young. But I know my body. And I know I want to tell you that. Even though I'm young, Please don't make me get the surgery, I promise I will never hold it as your responsibility or hold it against you ever in my life, I will take full responsibility on my shoulders, knowing that I want to live my life going forward as I am today without that surgery. So they continue to pray about it. And one day, my dad just got a word from God, that everything was going to be okay. And that they were not going to make me have that surgery. And I did not have that surgery at that time.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's an amazing story and you mentioned a couple of times there that your parents are praying. So obviously this is a home of faith. Did you have your own faith at that stage?
 
Tammy Becker 
I certainly did. I was brought up in church. So I was saved at the age of seven. And I remember I was in love with God and Jesus, my mom said that she knew something was going to be of me someday, because she would always find me every altar call going down to the altar and I would just cry and I would pray and I still love that so much. And I love that relationship with that whatever that I have with the Lord,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Going forward from this point, you've said, "Look, I am responsible, I do not want this surgery". What did you do to try and counteract that to keep yourself healthy going forward.
 
Tammy Becker 
So I dove even harder into exercise and nutrition. And I made a lifelong commitment that I was going to keep my bones strong, keep myself healthy with weight training. And I continued in sports. But you know, as I got older, I was a gymnast also. So I went in onto my own fitness center. I taught gymnastics, I taught weight training, I continued to stay healthy, continued to live a good clean life like clean, healthy foods, not really much of a drinker and little wine here and there never dabbled in the drug place. But that kind of a thing. I just dove in to making exercise the key importance in my life and kept God at the head of all of that keeping him in control and helping me stay on path with what my purpose was.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And where was life taking you at this stage? You mentioned, you started a gym and so you're busy with all these different things and, and staying healthy. What was happening in the rest of your life?
 
Tammy Becker 
In the rest of my life. I was having children I had two daughters. And I like I said I owned my own fitness center. I actually at that time. Back in the day. I applied for the fire department because my dad's a retired firefighter. So once again I was I want to do what my dad did, because he said I could do whatever I want. So at that time, it was a little bit on the sexist side, I was the only female that tested and I tested with a 98%. And I got a letter saying they took everybody with a 99%, I was pretty happy with my test score anyway, and I kind of knew what the whole thing was. So I just dove into everything that I loved and just continued to go forward and stay strong. And I kind of moved around the United States a little bit just to kind of like the thing, what I did with my exercise, I wanted to see the world I always wanted to make the most of everything in life and just felt like I had to take every moment and live it live every single moment of my life. And that's what I did.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So this point, it seems that that diagnosis all those years ago, is not going to trouble you going forward. But then what happened?
 
Tammy Becker 
Oh, so then 49 years old happened and I started getting some back pain and I totally forgot about my scoliosis. Now. I know that sounds probably like How could she forget about it? Well, because I never related pain that I had to my scoliosis. I always just thought it was I hurt myself or pulled my back out or something. I never related anything to my scoliosis because I never had pain throughout my life. But I was getting back pain. So I went to see my doctor, my regular doctor, and she told me that it was time that I better go see a back doctor, and I said, See a back doctor Why? She goes because your scoliosis and I said, Oh, well, I haven't messed with that since I was about 13. And she's like, well, she goes, the older you get, you really need to go and check at least have it checked out and make sure this isn't what's causing your pain. So I made that dreaded call to a specialist. And I went and saw him. And then I hear these dreaded words. Well, what happens is, in your fourth and fifth decade of life, scoliosis gives you other problems, you start getting degenerative disc disease, you start getting nerve damage, your bones start deteriorating because they're not aligned properly. And he went on and on with all of his things that he wanted to tell me. While again, I was sitting in a fog looking down going, this can't be happening. But it was, it was definitely happening again. And then the next thing I hear out of his mouth is you are a surgeon's dream. And I said, what I'm a surgeon's dream, he goes, yes, you have a virgin back. Nobody's messed with your back. So you're a back surgeon's dream? Well, if you can imagine somebody saying that to you, after you've spent like the last 40 years 40 something years fighting not to get the surgery, and then somebody saying, Well, yeah, like I want to get in there and work on your back rather than, like, get a second opinion. Let's try this. Let's try that. So I'm already my I completely shut him out. And I went on the assumption of like, all he wants us to do surgery on my back. And I'm not going to have that. I asked him just to send me to some physical therapy. And that's what he did. And I went and got some physical therapy. And I was talking to the physical therapist, and she said to me, this probably isn't going to help your back much. And I says, well, let's try. I said, I have exercised my whole life. I said it, let's give me something, something maybe I don't know. And she goes, but you do all these exercises just right, she goes, this, this really isn't going to help you you're going to need to see a surgeon and I said I just didn't like that surgeon i saw i said he went all he talked about was getting in and doing my back. And you know, without any other options. I said Do you have any other patients that have scoliosis that you could have them call me and talk to me and let me see, you know what happened with them? And oh, you know, I had all these questions. And they were just, I had no one to talk to nobody personally to talk to so she did find somebody she'd said I do have somebody I'll call her and I will ask if she'll call you and I said Oh perfect. And so I do get this call from a girl named Lily. And she went on to tell me that she just had a little surgery, but I sounded more like her friend Laurie. And I says Oh, and she goes Laurie has the same exact surgery. She went through the same thing. Only she had her surgery when she was a teenager when they diagnosed her But recently, she's had to have it fixed and she went back in and she has a really good surgeon who I also saw in Vegas and I says okay, well we you see if she'll call me, and Laurie. calls me and we instantly had a connection. And our connection was God. And immediately we both laughed and says, God makes no mistakes. God put us together. Actually, she goes, where do you live, and I told her where I live, and she goes, Oh, my goodness, she goes, boy, God doesn't make a mistake, I live right around the corner from you. So, you know, man, God is good. So we became the best of friends. And I did go to see her doctor in Las Vegas. And he told me the same thing that the other doctor did. And I was now faced with trying to decide if I wanted to do the surgery or not. So a long story short, I did not do the surgery at that moment, because I was still determined, I could fight it, because I'd fought it so long. So I went on, to throw myself in even more exercise. But what was happening is all those other things in my back were getting worse. And at this point, my husband and I had to make a move from Arizona to Montana. So I kind of just put my surgery on the back burner. And we came up to Montana, I sought out a chiropractor, I sought out a physical therapist, and I sought out another doctor that was a non surgical doctor. So she worked with me for the next year and a half. And till she says, you know, we've done everything we can we've given you injections, we've, there's just nothing else we can do. It's really, you've, you've exhausted all your options, you're killing your nerve and your left leg, you're going to end up not being able to walk anymore, you're going to end up in a wheelchair, and you're in excruciating pain all the time. It's time I went ahead, and I did some more research, and I called around to different doctors. And I went to see even another doctor in Denver, we sought out this doctor, and yes, she was telling me the very same thing. So I decided, well, I'll go ahead and get the surgery with this doctor because it was closer to home and we could drive me home after the surgery and everything would be closer for my husband. So we get everything prepared. We get everything ran through the insurance, we had everything set up. So we have a place to stay down there. And then I get up the next morning to go to my pre op, and I break out in shingles. They say I cannot have the surgery. Now they had already canceled once on me. So this was a second cancel. So they rescheduled. The third time I got I still have the shingles. So after three times, I decided I was not going to have that surgery with that doctor, because that was three strikes. And so I was back to thinking about Dr. McNulty again, in Las Vegas. So what I did is I decided to take a trip home a long way, in my vehicle, a soul searching trip, a trip, I would pray to God. And I prayed all the way home to Arizona to my parents house. And I was I knew I had to have the surgery and God said it's time he goes, but we will use this we will use this as a testimony for people. And so I trusted God and I set that I called Dr. McNulty and I set that appointment. So I had a month worth worth of tests before I had the surgery. surgery was scheduled for December 3 of 2018. And it's a two part surgery. So it would be the third and the fifth. On the third I went in. And that was where they opened me up from two inches above my belly button to my pelvic and they built a cage and inside, that was a seven hour surgery. On the fourth day I rested and the doctor rested and I don't remember a thing. On the fifth day. They went in to do my back portion which they opened my entire backup and he was fixing my back from T one down to the pelvic area. And that surgery ended up being 17 hours. That surgery I didn't wake up from that surgery left me in a coma for the next six days.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to talk more about what happened from that point on because this is where it did go terribly wrong. But even in the lead up to those surgeries, there must have been a battle for you. You're you're a woman of faith. You're calling out to God this whole time and God is saying, Hey, this is time. I'm gonna walk with you through that. But tell me about that tension between your strong Faith in God knowing that he has a purpose, that he's going to bring something out of it. But there's still that human fear. How did you deal with that battle?
 
Tammy Becker 
You know, God has a sense of humor. I, I truly believe this because I have what I call, I play tug of war with God quite a bit. Because I am human. And he understands me because he made me so sometimes I want to give things to God, and I want him to handle them for me. But then I take it back, instead of fully releasing it to him, and saying, it's in your hands, Father, you got it, I'm trusting you, I want to take it back. The human part of me, wants to take it back because of fear. Even though the Bible tells us we don't have to fear God has my whole life planned out for me. And I life would be so much simpler if I didn't play that tug of war with God, if I didn't allow that fear to step in, if I just let go of that human part of me, and just let go and let God as the cliche, you know, quotations say, but it isn't that easy. It isn't that easy. That's why you have to stay in the faith. Daily, you have to pray daily, you have to be in tune with God, because God will then tell you that you've got to let go, Tommy, you've got to let go in order for me to do the work that has to be done. You've got to let go and have faith in what I can do for you. Because until you can do that, I can't use you. I can't work with you. I can't use you to help other people. Because you're putting it all on you, instead of relying on me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're coming into a very scary part of this story. And the spoiler alert is that you did eventually come out of that coma. you're unaware of anything that's happening because of that coma. What about your family? What have they told you of that time?
 
Tammy Becker 
I have my sister and my husband were the two main people that went with me. I needed my sister there because she is my soul sister. She's my blood sister. She is my Christian sister. And we, I needed her there to pray for me to be with me. And so she was and what happened was is that she prayed for me before I went in before with both surgeries. But when I didn't wake up, things went into a panic. You know, everybody was panicking. My girls were not there. They didn't come for the surgery. So the first day there, everybody's wondering, why isn't she waking up? The doctors sending me for tests, like does she have a stroke? Did she have a heart attack? nobody really knew they were testing me for things. But everything was coming back like no, everything was okay. But I just wasn't waking up. And so you can imagine my husband's aunt is a nurse. So he's on the phone, apparently with her all the time questioning her and telling her all the meds they had me on and what they were doing with me each day. And then, you know, the second day came and my sister needed to go home. And she didn't want to go and she's just crying. Now I have two memories in the coma. This is one of them. I have a brief thing that I remember of like to my left, there was some kind of a door and I thought my sister was there saying she was leaving. And I thought I turned my head to her. Now she tells me I did that. I did exactly that. But they still said no, she's just has reflexes. And she's not away. And my second memory while I was in the coma is just is being cradled with God. And in his hands. Like if you took two cupped hands might look put my little body in his big hands, that he had everything under control. And that's those are the really the only two things, slight memories that I have. So my sister did leave, but she did come back, you know, the third day and john called her that's my husband and said she's not awake. She's not awake. And my sister said I am on my way. And she called my daughter Amanda and says, Be ready. I'm picking you up. Your mom's not waking up. She called my other daughter said you need to get to Vegas. Your mom's not waking up. It's been three days. She's in a coma. off they went they came back. So every day was something new. My sister prayed for me every day by the side of my bed. She would say prayers in my ears. She would play me songs that she knew christian songs that she knew I loved. She would tell me to wake up because I was going to be on the sid roth show and tell my testimony and she was telling me all these things and praying for me and I'm so blessed that I had her by my bedside. Meanwhile, my husband was the one fighting with The doctors and the nurses to get me off all the medication telling them that I never used painkillers because I don't like drugs and that they needed to wean me off of that stuff where I was never going to wake up because that's what his aunt had told him who's the nurse. He continued to get after him. Now we're in like to the fourth day, and he finally gets a shift of nurses during the day to start weaning me off these drugs. And by the evening, like he usually said he would leave around 10 o'clock at night. He said, I was almost weaned off of the drugs, I still hadn't woken up. He comes back in this is the fifth day. And the night nurses had me all drugged up again. And he was so upset that he really laid into everybody about getting me off of those drugs, because they said on the sixth day, if I did not wake up, they were going to have to take me and my husband, my family, none of them wanted them to do that for sure. So they were really on the nurses and this and that. So everybody went home. And then the next day was going to be the sixth day. My sister told me, she was praying to God that morning, and God said go down before everybody goes down, get down there and pray for your sister go down to the hospital before everybody goes. So she got up, told her husband, I'm going I need to go spend some alone time with my sister. And then she said, she kept telling me Tammy, you've got to wake up or they're going to trache you today. Please squeeze my hand, squeeze my hand. And she said I did squeeze her hand. And then she told the nurses and they said no, that's just a reflex. She goes, No Watch, watch. And she kept doing it. And I kept squeezing her hand. Now I don't remember any of this. This is just coming from my sister. So my sister called my husband and says you need to get down here. Tammy's waking up. So she didn't listen to the nurses. She listened to what God had told her to get down there. Pray for me, because I was going to wake up that day. And that's exactly what happened. I did wake up that day.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned a couple of times that if it had gone on to the next day that they would take you a tracheotomy. Tell me what that actually means.
 
Tammy Becker 
Because I was in a breathing apparatus, this during the whole coma, I was intubated, and I was on a breathing machine. And so they have to remove that breathing machine, because otherwise it starts growing and causing bacteria in your throat and windpipe and so they needed to get that out of there. And so they would kind of like drill a hole right in your throat, you know where your trachea is, and make a hole and put a little tube there where I could breathe out of that without having that whole tube down my throat and into my lungs. So so to say,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Tell me a bit about that experience of waking up, I know that you have some, some basic memory of that, that process of what happened. Tell me what you do. Remember,
 
Tammy Becker 
I remember before I actually opened my eyes, I really feel I had a little glimpse of heaven and a little glimpse of hell. And what I mean by that is in front of my eyes, because I know you know, they were closed, but I kept seeing a round dark circle. And it had two white eyes and I saw a white circle with two darker eyes. And I, I was scared. I was scared. I was terrifying. It was the most terrifying thing I have ever felt in my life. I felt like I was coming in one second, I was coming out of God's hands. And then like, I felt like I was experiencing like something evil. And I feel like the drugs played a big part of that what they had me in, but I also feel I got a glimpse of good and evil in heaven and hell, knowing that God always wins the battle. I am so thankful though, that I am God's girl that I am God's child that I have accepted. You know, Jesus in my heart because I can't imagine going through something like that and having to wake up not knowing, you know, that knowing my Savior. You know, God promised me he was with me. And he pulled me out of it. And when when I did realize where I was and with my family, it was comforting, but then, not 10 minutes later. I mean, it was so good to see everybody. I hear my sister go Tammy, do you know how long you've been asleep? And I'm like, no. And she says you've been asleep for six days. And I said no. She said Yeah, and I I just couldn't believe it. You You know there's no concept of time. You go in for surgery one day and then all of a sudden it's a week later. It's it's very bizarre. It's not like what's in the movies or anything that's for sure. It's not you wake up and you know exactly where you are what's going on, you wake up, very confused very, in in oblivion almost just really, really hard to describe to people how that felt.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned that, hey, you're on these drugs, and all, all of that would have fit into these visions that you had. And some people would say that that's all it was. It was just drugs, messing with your mind. But we who know God would believe that he uses those things. And he's used that as a way to say, I've got more in store for you. So tell me what's come out of that since?
 
Tammy Becker 
Yes, afterwards. I have hallucinations. But I can tell you, Rodney, there's a huge difference of hallucinations. And God being present in my life and talking to me are two totally different things. A hallucination is actually, I felt like I was having full on conversations and things were happening all around me. And my husband would say they weren't with God, it never leaves. It's always with me. It's his, he lives inside of me. So he's present all the time. But what's come out of all of this is, before I went into surgery, and God was giving me a vision, and this is before the drugs and everything, he gave me a vision with this whiteboard, because he was silent for a little while. And sometimes God gets silent in our life, when we're going to hit a new season. And I was getting ready to hit a new season for sure. But I saw this whiteboard, just think of like a whiteboard, like a dry erase board. And all of a sudden, a y would pop up and I'm talking about letters, a Y and then an O and then a U, and then YOU would pop out Y O U you you. And I kept thinking, Okay, Lord, You want me to work on me? Okay? Well, that's what I'm doing. Okay, I'm getting the surgery, we talked about this, I am going to do what you wanted me to do, and I'm going to get the surgery and you're going to take care of me. After the surgery, after the coma. After I got out of the hospital, 15 days later, God said, start a ministry. And it's going to be called while YOU Ministries. And so that surgery was the beginning of December, April 1, I opened the doors to my nonprofit while YOU Ministries. And that's where I am at today. I have several Bible studies, we do several Bible study groups that we do things online together, I'm going through the Bible in a year right now. So anybody can join us at any time and jump right in. I record episodes for that group, I have a website. And we do a lot of giving to the public, I do a lot of fundraisers to buy Bibles and get a Bible in people's hands that don't have them. Since I can't go into the homeless camps right now, which is something that I've loved to do as part of my mission work. I taken it upon myself to reach out to nursing homes because they can't see their loved ones. And while you ministries provided a Christmas for a 39 bed nursing home real close to me this Christmas, that included 39 Bibles, socks, scarves, gloves, books, all kinds of nice things for each and every person there. And so that's where I'm at today.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And that Y O U turned out to be something quite different to what you initially imagined it to be?
 
Tammy Becker 
It certainly did. I kept thinking, it was about me. And I kept wondering why God was so quiet about it. But he was just prepping me and giving me a piece of the information ahead of time to I would understand, after I got out of that coma and what needed to happen. Because I was told I have a purpose, and we all have a purpose. It's just a matter if we reach out to God, and find out what our purpose is. We're not here to just live and have a good time. We're here God made us for fellowship with Him. God made us to communicate with him. God made us with purpose. He takes all of us no matter what we've done in our life. In fact, he take look at Paul, he took Paul he was a murderer, all of the disciples, gambling, I mean, they all did something. But that's what he does is he takes normal people because how can other people relate to us? He doesn't take normal people that have done things in their life and use it for the good to glorify Him.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's been an interesting journey that you've been on. And I would imagine that there would be people listening who are going through their own difficulty, and it might not be a medical issue as you faced, and that very serious time of being in the coma and family not knowing quite what was going on. But they're going through their own difficulty, what would you say to them? How can they reach out and make a difference in their life today?
 
Tammy Becker 
Well, first of all, I would say that the very first thing to do is pray is, is you just need to get down on your knees and pray. And if, if you're having difficulty and you don't know where to turn to, or you don't know how to do this, or to seek out your purpose, or you just need someone to pray with you. You can reach out to me at youministries.com. I have a place there for prayers. And you can send in a request to me for prayers, you can put your testimony in there. But I would love I am open at any time to mentor anybody that has questions or has difficulties in their life. I have I am an open book, I am willing to share anything that I've experienced in my life with others to help them through to make it easier to make their journey easier and to move forward in their life with purpose.
 
Rodney Olsen 
That's a great invitation and I'm hoping that people will take you up on that I will put details of how to contact you in the shownotes at bleeding daylight dotnet so people can head there. But Tammy, it has been a delight to speak to you to hear the way that God has continued to work through your life in very real situations and and the work that he has you doing now. So thank you so much for your time and for for spending their time with us on bleeding daylight.
 
Tammy Becker 
Thank you Rodney. It was a pleasure to be here. God bless you.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

Shonah Marie had a fairly sheltered upbringing, and would now admit that she was quite removed from what she would call real-world issues. However, it wasn't too long before some very real issues invaded her life. It was the tough times that helped her to become the person that she is today but the lessons she learned during those times haven't been easy. 
 
 
 
https://steadyinthestorm.com/https://www.facebook.com/steadyinthestorm
https://www.instagram.com/shonahmarie
 
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen
Welcome to another episode of Bleeding Daylight. Remember to subscribe to ensure that you don’t miss an episode and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please tell your friends about Bleeding Daylight too.
 
In just a moment I’ll introduce you to a brave guest with an inspiring story.
 
Shonah Marie had a fairly sheltered upbringing, and would now admit that she was quite removed from what she would call real-world issues. However, it wasn't too long before some very real issues invaded her life. It was the tough times that helped her to become the person that she is today but the lessons she learned during those times haven't been easy.  Today, we'll be opening a window into her life Shona. Thank you for joining us on Bleeding Daylight.
 
Shonah Marie 
Thank you for having me, Rodney, I'm really excited to chat with you today.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You've said that you grew up in a bubble of sorts that disconnected you from the world. Can you describe your early home life?
 
Shonah Marie 
Yeah, and I grew up in you know, a relatively great home, I was homeschooled, and we were very active members of our local churches wherever we lived. But being homeschooled and having most of my social experiences come from the church gave me a real narrow perspective of the world, I guess you could say, there were amazing aspects to that. And that I feel like I did have a really good childhood, a really innocent childhood, I guess you could say, I feel like I remained in that childlikeness for quite a long time, which I feel benefited me in some areas in the long run, but also left me somewhat naive and innocent towards how to handle navigating real world circumstances. I kind of call it the bubble. Now, you know, now that the bubble has been popped, I can see that it definitely was a bubble. But like anything, there were positive sides to having that upbringing. But also now looking back, I see how being so sheltered, didn't set me up for success in some areas.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And there's always that balance isn't there between wanting to protect children from the excesses of our world, but also not wanting to go too far. And obviously, your parents were just doing the best they could with what they had to give you a great upbringing. So it wasn't them trying to keep you away from the world as such, but wanting to bring you up in the right way?
 
Shonah Marie 
Absolutely. I would 100% agree with that, you know, like parents always do the very best they know how. I don't resent my childhood in the idea of having a child like experience, I think, just when those larger complications of life hit, I felt like I had no tools in my tool belt as to how to understand them or navigate them.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I know that as a young child, you were very fearful. But you certainly turned to a very real faith to counteract that fear. Maybe you can walk us through some of that experience.
 
Shonah Marie 
Yeah, absolutely. You know, they the same goes, you're most afraid of what you do not know and I felt like I didn't know about all kinds of things, therefore everything was terrifying. I remember reading, you know, Psalms 23 as a kid, and how it talks about how God is with you in the valley, and you have nothing to fear. And it's such an iconic verse for a reason. And I remember it was really, really something I leaned on as a kid, you know, like, you don't have anything to fear because God is with you. And so I explored a lot about what that meant, even as a child, what does it mean for God to be with you in those darker moments? You know, does it look like praying does it look like reading your Bible does it look like just being still and allowing his peace to come into you. And that was a real lifesaver for me in my life was leaning on Jesus and leaning on his peace in times, I was afraid. And I remember being afraid a lot and pretty well about everything that even carried through to my adult years, I was afraid of, you know, what it looked like to explore different jobs even or career paths, or what it looked like to go back to school. And it all just terrified me, and left me really without options within myself, because everything just felt like too big of an option to overcome. I really relied on my faith in Jesus to kind of allow his peace to guide me into the areas I felt I was supposed to go. His peace was kind of the indicator of this is a safe path, I guess you could say, because if it was fear inducing, I didn't want anything to do with it. So learning how to identify that relationship with Jesus as a peace guiding relationship was a real Cornerstone in my life.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I believe you had windows into the spiritual side of life in ways that at the time seemed normal for you, but you soon realized we're not quite the same experience that everyone else was having.
 
Shonah Marie 
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's natural for every kid to have nightmares. You know, it's natural for, for kids to go to Sunday school and learn about Jesus and, and that sort of thing. But for me, it was a very dynamic battleground, I guess you could say, when I had nightmares as a kid, they were very real very impactful. And I would pray afterwards that Jesus would come and fill the room and be in the room. And I had experiences as a kid where I saw outlines of the shadows of angels outside my bedroom window, I felt very much like I could feel the presence of evil in my room, or even in locations around the city. Like I remember once there was a store, kind of a novelty store downtown that we liked to go with you. And they had really interesting things in it and such, but it gave me a dark, scary feeling as a kid, and I didn't like going in there because it just felt terrifying. So I always was very sensitive to the spiritual realm. And that felt normal for me, because that's all I knew. But then when you start talking about it, or asking other people, if they have these types of experiences, they kind of look at you like, I'm sorry, what, which made me feel a little alienated, but also made me feel like somewhat special as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And your parents were bringing you up in a somewhat traditional Christian family. So what was their take on these sort of senses that you had the spiritual connection that you had to go,
 
Shonah Marie 
they knew pretty early on that I was a pretty emotional sensitive kid. And I think the first interpretation of that is just, she's an over emotional child. But my parents and my family went to a fairly charismatic church for a while, and that kind of opened all of our eyes to the spiritual realm of the world, they became a lot more sensitive and in tune when, when I would have nightmares or when something was going on, they kind of took this as a sign of like, okay, like, we need to really pray over showing in her room and help her feel safe and secure in Jesus and within our home. So they were actually fairly supportive within that realm. I would say, especially my dad, I think like they understood what was going on. But as a child, I feel like you don't fully know how to explain what you see or what you feel so because I didn't really fully even know what I was sensing, how could they understand to that extent.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So back at this time, you were still inside this bubble, as you call it. But as you grow, and you start to experience life around you, I guess, that bubble had burst and you started to walk into life as an adult? What started to change for you, then
 
Shonah Marie 
it's hard to pinpoint exactly when, when that bubble burst, I guess you could say, so I'm kind of floundering as to I want to find that one event. But I moved out of my city that I was brought up in when in my early 20s. And that independence of a new city and a new life new job, kind of forced me into learning and understanding the world around me. It was a great experience, obviously, you know, any young 20 year old can identify with that grasping of independence when you kind of break out of your family circle. But I still, you know, I still was very much involved in the church and youth groups and what have you. I went my whole 20s, essentially, without any real dating relationship experience. And I would attribute a lot of that to my fear of exploring that relational realm. It was just so unknown to me, I'm certain I was constantly thinking, what should it look like? What do I want it to look like? And then that constant evaluating in my mind kind of kept me from exploring what it would be like to be relationship or pursue a relationship. I met my husband in my late 20s, we had some mutual friends and we kind of like knew of each other, but we weren't necessarily friends ourselves. We got to know each other through being on the prayer ministry team together at our church. And over time, we developed some more common friends and social gatherings. I actually asked him to help me install my dishwasher in my condo because I was I didn't have any family in town. And of course, I needed a guy who knew what he was doing and, and I really felt like I was supposed to ask him, you know, I would even go so far as to say as I felt like God was telling me like, Hey, you should ask Rhett to help you with this. And so I kind of went out on a limb and asked him and he came over, you know, super nice helped me out and something clicked in his mind, and he went, I need to pursue this girl. He's a very confident, bold personality. And when he decided that he was going to pursue me, he did it with confidence and boldness that terrified me. essentially said, like, like, hey, like, you know, I had so much fun with you like installing your dishwasher. We should hang out. Do you want to like, go see a movie with some friends? Sure. movie with friends turned into just me and him. And then from there, he was like, hey, like, Can I take on a date, and then roses showed up at my work, and I fell into a panic attack. Like, what is going on here like, this is moving so fast. And I even had a conversation with him right off the bat being like, hey, look, I need to understand what this looks like, you know, and where are we going and what is pursue will even mean and so I would say that was that was a pretty, pretty good shake up experience just being pursued in my early 30s, which sounds so silly to say even right now, you know, it's a reminder of how innocent I was and how naive I was to just like common world experiences. So we started dating and hanging out a lot. And I knew that he had had a history with addiction and but even in that moment, you know, I figured like, Oh, well, that's in the past, and Jesus will heal him of that. And we will that won't ever be part of our lives because Jesus loves me so much that he would never like put me through something like that. So, you know, Jesus will take care of this. And that was kind of as much thought as I gave into that which is so naive, I knew nothing about what being an addict meant, or being an alcoholic meant and how addicts and alcoholics live with that trait their entire life, regardless of whether they're in sobriety or in relapse, like I just had no clue until I was even in Al anon years later about what being an addict meant. It was fairly common in our social circles in the church to drink on the weekends and even drink a little too much. And I felt like those lines of what was okay and not okay, socially, really started to get blurred even in the church, right? You know, you go back 10, 15 years and to socially drink with your friends at church was kind of unheard of. And now it was commonplace. So for me to understand that Oh, Rhett has an issue with drinking in the past. I go, Don't we all? You know, I didn't understand there's a difference between social drinking and what being an addict means.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So how quickly did things move from there from this initial getting to know him? You had this bit of an understanding that there was a problem with alcohol in the past for him, but in your mind, that's all sorted. And you're moving forward? He's pursuing you? How long did it take before there was a proposal and a wedding? And how did that happen?
 
Shonah Marie 
We dated just over a year, year and a half, I think, before we got married, and there was a minor breakup in there over some conflict. And but like I was 32, when we got married, and my husband was 39. So we're both kind of in a phase of life of you know, as you get older, it doesn't take a whole lot of dating to figure out the type of person you want to be with. And, you know, as you get older, that dating relationship tends to shrink a little bit. So we dated for just over a year before we got married. This summer leading up to our wedding, our conversations just kept ending up at, well, where is this going? You know, it's sort of talking about we started talking about like, where we would want to live one day and what that would look like or career changes. And it was like, Well, why are we talking about that? before? We're talking about? Are we getting married? I think we both naturally, like avoided the question for a while. But then after so many conversations have an ending up at like, okay, like either where we're doing this or not, right. So we just kind of decided like, yeah, like, I think, I think we're doing this, like we're getting married. And we actually had our whole wedding planned before there was even a ring on my finger. Because we just knew where we were headed. It was just obvious to us it. It did scare us both just because Rhett was everything I wanted to have in a husband. But I also knew there were a lot of aspects to him that I purposely tried to avoid. So it was a little scary for me to think, okay, like, Whoa, we're doing this and I was kind of determined to trust God over falling victim to my fear. And likewise, for Rhett to date me and pursue me as a wife was really outside of his comfort zone. Me being you know, as innocent and protected and sheltered as I was, and him being my first experience of a relationship was really quite nerve racking for him as well. We got married in the fall. And by Christmas of that same year, I knew that alcohol was becoming a problem for Rhett and in our marriage, and I had no idea how to handle that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Was there a sense in which you were thinking, Oh, God, you you've kind of warned me of things before you've given me this. This feeling that this is not right. And yet you've let me walk into this. What's going on?
 
Shonah Marie 
That is such a good question. I've really struggled with that a lot. I was like, okay, Jesus, like, I knew Rhett kind of freaked me out a bit. But I also felt so confident in God's voice over our relationship we both did. You know, we really felt like God was speaking and guiding our relationship. And there wasn't really any doubt that we were meant to be together. Like, even right now, as I speak to you like, I know that there was no doubt that we would be we were to be together. But when the drinking started ramping up, and I could see Rhett start to become very emotionally distant and start to choose alcohol over connection. I kind of unraveled and that not only fueled my distress, but it fueled Rhett's addiction.
 
 
I asked
 
Shonah Marie 
myself that exact same question like, okay, God, like I consider myself to be a fairly discerning person, I would consider myself to be fairly confident in hearing your voice, like, why would you allow this knowing chaos was around the corner? And I think a lot of Christians are asked to that question like, why would you follow a God who allows destruction to happen? You know, you say your God is loving, but he's also a God of judgment. And, you know, why would Jesus allow the Holocaust to happen? So it's all these big questions that people love to put in front of Christians in order to catch them in the corner. And I would say, like, what I've learned going through this experience is, I don't think that God's setting his followers purposefully on a path of destruction to teach him a lesson, so to speak. But I, I do think there's an aspect of God, who goes, You know what, this is going to be really hard for Shonah. But I know there's good things in it. And I know she's strong enough to get through it. And we're going to be with her as she goes through it, and it's going to suck, but she's going to come out the other side stronger, send her off.
 
 
And I think
 
Shonah Marie 
that is a loving God, to say, you know what, this is going to be hard, but you're going to be better for it. That's parenting that is loving parenting, to shelter your kids and to keep them from experiencing any sort of character developing experiences is kind of neglectful. So, you know, I wouldn't say that God wished for us to go through horrific things. But I do think he sees the outcome, and knows that we'll get through it. And he's okay with walking out that journey with us,
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're starting to see these signs that things are not quite right. How did you feel about actually addressing that with red? Did you feel that you could actually approach him on this? Or is this still something that you weren't quite sure which direction to go?
 
Shonah Marie 
I kind of describe it as like, falling off a horse and having your, your foot stuck in the stirrup. And, you know, you get dragged for about 30 seconds before you realize you can't do this anymore. I've kind of felt like I had fallen off a horse, you know, right away with Rhett. And I was like, No, like, this is too hard. I can't do this. You know, I want off, one off this ride. I confronted him immediately, you know, the first time that he called me to pick them up from a bar. I was irate. You know, I said, like, What is going on?
 
 
Like, where is this going?
 
Shonah Marie 
What are you doing? Like, I don't understand why you're doing this. And because he had periods of relapse and sobriety in his past, this was no new experience for him. He was like, I won't do it again. Like, I'm going to work on this. Like, I'm so sorry. I don't know how it got that far or whatever. Right. But for me, I just exploded right away. And I wanted answers right away. For Rhett it was it was this journey of almost him wondering like, how did I get here? So not only was he asking himself that question, I was demanding an answer of something he hadn't even figured out himself yet.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And this comes down to the whole nature of addiction, or alcoholism is it's not just a matter of saying, I want to stop this. There's something internal, there's something going on. That means I need to have that next drink. So he's, he's battling with this at the same time, saying he's sorry, and you're wondering, when will this end? So how did that journey continue from there?
 
Shonah Marie 
There was a lot of good moments, you know, in our first year of marriage, and I was determined to focus on those good moments. You know, like we went camping we went, we hung out with friends. We were part of a home church that was really fulfilling for us spiritually. There was a lot of really good stuff that happened that first year. Rhett sort of went through phases where he would binge drink. And then he go a few weeks or a month without drinking, and then it would come up again. And, and so I tried to write out the positives of what was happening. And I kind of ignored the negatives of what was going on, you know, okay, well, that was just a slip up, we're done with that now, when things would arise again, and the alcohol would increase, and then I would lose it again, I was completely out of control. And now we're fighting and now I'm demanding answers. And so it was this roller coaster of good memories and good times, and these depths of I can't take this anymore. And it carried on like that for essentially, the first two years of our marriage, the good times got a little longer, the bad times got really dark and hard. And eventually, to fast forward the story. Rhett ended up going to treatment. Two days before our second anniversary, he was there a month and came out of treatment at the end of 2019. And then he came back home, the end of December. And you know, we're still celebrating sobriety here. He's still working, his recovery and his sobriety, and I'm working on myself to help curb those emotions on my end. But it was it was a two year journey of up and downs before I reached the end of my rope and said, either you're signing separation papers, or you're going to treatment, like that's your options.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Were there people you could confide in, along this journey, especially in those early days that, hey, things aren't quite what they seem?
 
Shonah Marie 
Yeah, as I just mentioned, we were a part of a small group of some really good friends for a few years there. And we intentionally met every Sunday night at around five 5:30, we would all contribute to a pre planned dinner, we'd have dinner together, chat about our lives, and then we'd spend the rest of the evening focused more on a spiritual focus now that would change from week to week as to what that looked like. But that home group was really our lifeline, especially my lifeline through all of that, I have definitely been a very sheltered person, my whole life, I don't really like to let people in and show them what's really going on, you know, I, it's very much about maintaining the front, but this experience just didn't allow for luxuries of hiding. I was really vulnerable them you know, I, I leaned on them a lot in dark times called them at 10, 11. at night, midnight, saying I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know how to get home from the bar. I don't even know if I can be home right now. And they would come pick me up or tell me to come over and give me a reprieve. I honestly don't know how I would have got through without them. I don't know how people get through tough things like that without community and without Jesus. Like I just don't have an answer outside of those two things.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It would be easy for us to say, Well, this is obviously already doing. He's the one that's broken in this situation. But we know that each of us is broken in a different way. And I would imagine that God is teaching you things along the way. What were some of the things that you needed to work on yourself during this time? Oh, man,
 
Shonah Marie 
I'm still working on them, I would say but God was definitely shaping me and working on me. And I would say that those two years of relapse, I have never been closer to Jesus as I was in those two years. I felt like I was literally in his arms at times. You know, he was teaching me about how to be resilient. He was teaching me to find strength where I didn't know strength existed. The biggest things he was teaching me were compassion and love and grace for Rhett, you know how to look past someone's exterior and see who they are see their heart, see who God made them to be. I still don't know how I managed to muster up the grace and compassion in some of those darker moments. You know, like, it was really a day to day thing. I would have to seek God on almost every conversation every moment being like, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know what to say, I don't know what to do. I don't know where to go, I don't know who to call. I would just rely on Jesus to bring the answer to me into to guide me again. So learning to trust God was was a real big component, and then learning to trust that he is good. Even in the midst of chaos was probably the hardest lesson in all of it. I feel I really started to understand the heart of the Father and it all a lot of like, kind of like I said earlier, a lot of people love to challenge God like Oh, how can you worship Loving God, who has done X, Y and Z that's so hateful. How is this a loving God, but really, in all of that, like, I could feel God's heartbreaking for what was going on, I could feel his sorrow for what we were going through. And learning to sit with Jesus in that empathy was probably the greatest gift. I remember one morning, I woke up, probably five 530 in the morning, and I was home alone, because it was one of those seasons where I had asked Rhett to take a hike for a while, you know, and he was staying in hotel rooms with friends. And so I was home alone. And I woke up at about 530 in the morning, and I sat on the couch, and I didn't feel like I could connect with Jesus, I was so hard in my heart. But I felt like God was calling me to himself, you know, he was saying, like, come spend the morning with me, come spend the morning with me. And I was like, No, I can't do it. But slowly, slowly, I got up, I just put some worship music on, I sat on the couch. And suddenly I'm bawling my eyes out. And like, the only words I can get out are Jesus my marriage. And that's all I can say. And I just felt like Jesus say, I know. I know. And that was it. And he didn't need to say anything else. And I didn't need to hear anything else. I just needed to know that he knew what was going on. I didn't have to tell him what was going on and have to describe it. I didn't have to say this big, long prayer of Jesus, this this, and this is happening. And I need you to show up in all these ways. All I had to do is come to him and bawl my eyes out and go my marriage. And he was just like, Yeah, I know. That simple, simple prayer just told me he didn't only see, but he gets it. And he's, he's hurting for us, too. And that was a sign of Jesus. I never know him prior to this.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You talked about the fact that you're learning grace and compassion for other people. And certainly that grace and compassion for Rhett, as he's walking through that, did you find it difficult to strike that balance between that grace and compassion, but still needing to call out behavior that was unacceptable to call out? What is broken in an effort to bring healing?
 
Shonah Marie 
Yeah, absolutely. I would never condone someone to stay in a relationship that where the other person wasn't willing to acknowledge their brokenness and come to a point of forgiveness and seek redemption through God. Like that's the point. So there was there was a lot of tough love that happened in that season two, I remember a lot of phone calls between Rhett and I, where i was said to him, like, you got to figure this out, you got to get up, you got to pursue sobriety, you have to call someone, tell them what's going on. Like, I can't do this for you, I can't be the person who heals you, I can't support this, like, you need to figure this out. And he was always like, I know, I know, like, like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to do this. But I just don't know how to do anything else right now. And so there was a lot of a lot of calling out of his behavior. And I would say to him, like, look like, I'll support you if you support yourself. But I have to see that you're supporting yourself. It was a back and forth tussle for the two years, you know, like I said, there were good times where things are going well, and there were bad times or things were falling apart completely. Anyone who has loved someone through addiction will know that they have to come to the end of themselves before they reach out for help, I would say Rhett came to the end of himself a couple of times, but that point where I said to him, like, Look, I have played every card, I know how to play in order to save this marriage. And I said to him, I'm like I'm out of cards. And I feel like you're still holding half a deck in your hand. So I'm going to play my last card, which is your signing separation papers, or you can start playing some of the cards that you're holding on to and you can get help. It was at that point where he was just so desperate for a different way of life that we ended up getting him into treatment. But yeah, it was really hard, you know, being a newlywed and just sort of wanting that like, blissful honeymoon experience. And I was trying to cling to what that might look like and love him and have a marriage and walk this out. But the reality of it was, there was no marriage happening because we had addiction stuck in the middle of us. I wouldn't even say I balanced it. Well, I would say I bounced back and forth you know tough love, Grace, tough love grace and I think some situations I responded wrong and some I responded correctly. It was a very much learn on the job type experience.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We all love the Hollywood movies where we see there is first All things are going well, then there's something that disrupts that. And then by the end of the movie, everything sorted. Everyone lives happily ever after. But we know that that's not life. And you mentioned that, whilst there's been this, this long period of being sober, that it's something that is a continual work in progress. How do you walk day to day with that? Working in with read sobriety,
 
Shonah Marie 
You know, that happily ever after is not going to happen until Jesus comes back, right? Maybe not even then maybe he's got more for us after that. And like we are a constant work in progress. And like I said, you know, where we're a year and a few months into sobriety, but we're still, we're still working on things. And like I said, at the beginning, you know, a person who has the trade of addiction or alcoholism will combat that trait their entire lives. And last year was a hard year. I don't know what statistics are like everywhere, but for us, and where we live, overdose rates, suicide rates, were through the roof last year of people who just couldn't take anymore and, and read had some close calls, you know, with relapsing last year. And I'm, I can't believe that he made it through last year without relapsing. It was a tough year on everyone. I can't even say how proud I am of him for getting through that year without relapsing. I, you know, I don't know what our future is going to look like, I don't know if, if we'll have to go through that again, or what have you. But I do know, you can only take it one day at a time. And that's kind of how we take it. And you know, you just have to focus on what you can do with what you have. And even retrospect, you know, like, I was speaking to a friend recently who is in a relationship with an addict, and they're in the middle of chaos with it. And then I'm coming home and I'm thinking, Oh, man, like, I remember what that was, like, like, I'm so thankful that we're not there anymore. You know, and I just had so much gratitude for what our marriage looks like. And it's not a perfect marriage, you know, we still have lots to work on like anyone else. But I was just flooded with gratitude for how far we've come. And that it is a day to day journey that we don't actually have to be perfect by tomorrow or next week, but that we can just focus on the one thing God's asking us to attune to tune into and work on and just work on that for right now.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You wrote the book steady in the storm, which really Chronicles that journey that you went through, and very much from from your perspective, obviously, was it difficult to write that to bring back those memories and walk through it again, in the writing of the book,
 
Shonah Marie 
That was actually kind of the intention of writing it down? To be honest. When I started writing out my story, it was really for my own personal benefit. I had a lot of friends and family and counselors asked me like, oh, have you ever thought of writing out your story? And I was like, What story like, what, what on earth would I write about, but they really encouraged me to do it just for retrospect, to work through those memories. And as a personal journey is a point of healing. So when I started writing the book, I I wasn't actually thinking that it would be a published book, I'm more thought, Okay, well, if I'm going to write up my story, where do I start? What do I say what's important? So I started writing it with the perspective of me sitting across from a stranger, telling them my story, you know, what would they need to know about me in order to understand why this journey was so hard? And I kind of started with that idea and went from there. It really was a healing thing for me, you know, there'd be times I'd be writing and I would just stop and bawl my eyes out and ask Jesus to come and help me heal that memory. And I feel like I learned a lot about myself and how traits I have were really points of strength in the story and how others other traits were points of weakness, and it helped me understand why I reacted the way I did. About halfway through writing the book, I really started to feel like I had something worth telling. And, you know, I thought, there's so many people out there who are going through this who feel so alone, you know, I felt so alone. I asked a lot of people for book references, podcasts, even like, pamphlets, anything like can you give me something to help me understand what I'm going through and to know that I'm not alone and all the recommendations that came my way were all about addiction or alcoholism, you know, understanding the addict, which I read, and I found helpful, but then I also felt like, Well, where's my side? For every addict? There's got to be 20 people that love them, where are their stories? How come I'm not hearing about them. So about half through writing the book, I thought, you know, this could be the book that I wanted in that season of knowing that I'm not alone and the empathy of hearing how hard it is to be in that position and the hope to get through it. As I neared the end of writing it, I had read it and my mom read it and give me constructive criticism. And I thought, you know what, God, if this is something you want the world show me how to publish it. And the blessing of the COVID, lockdown allowed me the time to get it published,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Rhett must have known that there was hurt on your side but were there new hurts that he was reading through that book and thinking, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you, you experienced that at the time,
 
Shonah Marie 
He read the book, probably in three or four days. And you know, he'd be sitting in the kitchen, reading it on the laptop, and I'd be in the bedroom reading my own book, and he'd come in and let out a big heavy sigh and kind of flop on the bed, I'd be like, Whoa, like, What's going on with you. And he would be like, your book is amazing, and really hard for me to read. He's like, it's really hard for me to read that, like knowing that I put you through it. I remember when he was in treatment, we had a counseling session, and they encouraged me to tell Rhett certain things he had done and how it had made me feel because they said it was important for him to understand the sphere outside of himself. addicts, in general, are quite self focused and selfish. And they actually said, you know, it's important for you to share with Rhett, when you're hurting, or a memory comes up, what happened in that memory and how it affected you, so that he can understand how addiction affects people around him. So for him to read the book was really, really hard for him. I think it was also healing for him, in a sense to, to know how God was supporting me through it, and how I don't claim to be a very strong person to be honest. Sometimes I feel not a hypocrite, but close. Like, I remember when I was reading the book in the editing mode, and I would read something and I'd be like, wow, like, that's really good advice. I should do that. I'm like, wait, like, I wrote that. I did that. Like, there's aspects to it, where, you know, I went like, man, how can I do that? Like, how did I get through? Like, I can't believe that, that I have the strength to do that. And that that was what I was getting out of it. Whoa, like, Who am I, you know, like, I still feel like such a broken version of myself, I can really only claim God's faithfulness, that got us through that. So I think for rent to read that and really understand, you know, how, how much God was there for me and our community was there for me in the time was, was also kind of healing for him.
 
Rodney Olsen 
They would be some listening today who would think well, I don't actually have someone in my life who is an addict or is an alcoholic? So this book probably isn't for me. But that's not the case. You're telling the story of God's goodness in amongst struggle, and we all face struggle, don't we?
 
Shonah Marie 
Absolutely. And that was why the title to be honest, you know, steady in the storm, like, it doesn't matter what your storm is, like, we all went through a storm last year, you know, we're still going through it to some extent, you know, whether it be the storm of addiction, or the storm of walking with a loved one through an illness, or even losing your job are massive forms of grief. You know, a lot of the book I talk about grief and about how I was grieving my marriage when I was a newlywed and what that looked like, it is obviously my journey of walking with my husband through addiction. But I talk about what it's like to get through hard things, essentially, and what I needed to get through and how God came through. And I think a lot of that is applicable to whatever it is you're going through that you're being challenged in. I think there's a lot of aspects of the book that that can be tailored to your experience. It doesn't have to be. Yeah, oh, that's not for me. I don't know any alcoholics? I think it is. I think it is a worthwhile book for a lot of journeys
 
Rodney Olsen 
Shonah, I'm sure that there are people who are wanting to learn more from your experience to be able to read the book, what's the easiest way for people to find the book or to be in contact with you?
 
Shonah Marie 
The book is for sale just exclusively on Amazon right now. It is available in any country accessible that, you know, with Amazon, which is good if you're going to be exclusive with one person. Amazon's a good one to be. Yeah, so even if you were to Google Search steady in the storm book, it comes up right away with an Amazon link. I also have a website steady in the storm.com which links to the book itself. I also actively blog on that website. So if you're wanting more consistent content, that's a good place to go on Facebook, setting the storm alarm.com my Instagram is shown in Murray. Yeah, even just Google searching Steady In the Storm book will bring you to the Amazon store
 
Rodney Olsen 
Shonah, I want to thank you for being so open and honest about this story which has been a difficult road so many times and it's still a road that you're walking down, but I know that it's going to benefit a lot of people. So thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for your time on bleeding daylight today.
 
Shonah Marie 
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to tell it. I appreciate it.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

As well as sharing his personal story, Ryan Roy has some extremely valuable encouragement and guidance for parents, especially dads. From being abandoned by his father when he was just five years of age to being a champion for hundreds of other fathers, Ryan's story is inspiring.
 
http://bethedadyouwishyouhad.com/
 
https://www.facebook.com/bethedadyouwishyouhad-2701537033209816 
 
https://fbidads.com/ 
 
https://www.facebook.com/FBIDADS2020 
 
http://www.ryanroy.me/ 
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Thanks for listening to this very important episode of Bleeding Daylight. As well as sharing his personal story, today’s guest has some extremely valuable encouragement and guidance for parents, especially dads. I am convinced that sharing this episode will be of great benefit to many families.
Please subscribe to Bleeding Daylight and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
 
The struggles we face, the hurts we experience, will generally push us one of two ways. They can continue to harm and destroy us long after the events that initially caused us damage, or they can be the driver for transformation. Of course, even when we take the road of transformation, there's no guarantee that it will be easy or painless. Today's guest has not only seen transformation in his own life, he's actively empowering others towards transformation. Ryan Roy, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Ryan Roy 
Hey, thank you so much, Rodney, for having me. I'm excited to be on the show today and share a little bit of my journey.
 
Rodney Olsen 
The hurts in your life began so very early. What are your earliest memories? And how did they begin to shape you all that time ago?
 
Ryan Roy 
Well, we jumped right in, didn't we? So you know, one of my earliest memories is when I was five years old. It was right before Christmas that year. It was the day that I realized that my father had abandoned me. I was laying in bed, my parents had been divorced. And I had spent the weeks with my father. And I admit I was spending a weekend with my mother. And because I was such a good kid. And it was right before Christmas. I was sharing with my mother what presents I wanted under her tree at her house and, and what presence that Santa was going to deliver at my dad's house. And in that moment, my mom said she had to share something with me. And what she shared is that I would no longer be going to my father's house. In that moment, she assured me that Santa would bring all the presents to her house. I think that was her way of comforting me at the time. Many years later, I did some personal development. And they asked me, What did I do in that moment? How did I react? And my response was, I believe I was just strong from my mother. That's no burden that any five year old should have to put on, we should never have to be at that age strong for our parents. So it was a very, I guess, challenging time and I grew up and I realized that through life. I've always tried to be really strong for others as I was at that five year old. So that challenge continues throughout life today, even though I'm very conscious of it.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You weren't the only child in the family but there was a big age difference, I believe between you and your siblings.
 
Ryan Roy 
Yeah, so I was it will get a little bit deeper into the story. But my mother gave birth to five children, but she had multiple marriages. So in and out of marriages, there was actually a total of 10 of us. And I was the baby of everybody and my next closest sibling in age was seven and a half years older than I.
 
Rodney Olsen 
What was it like going forward from there, as you say your parents had already been divorced. But there's still this being brought up in that time of your mom being a single parent, I guess in and out of marriages. What did that mean for you as a child?
 
Ryan Roy 
Oh, I guess it It created a level of instability, right finances were challenging. As my mom had five of us. You know, me being the youngest. She was at her last marriage. But there were still men that came in and out of her life. My siblings were older. They were experimenting with things that fortunately, I never experienced. But, you know, I watched my brothers get arrested. I remember hearing a conversation where my sister probably around 15 or 16 years old got rushed to the hospital because she was found drunk in a snowbank. I saw you know, my brothers and even my sister do drugs, smoke marijuana, snort cocaine. It's not not an environment, necessarily that you would ideally for a young man to grow up witnessing. I will say this though, my mother just worked really hard, and did the best she could. She wasn't part of that. Like my mother never drank a drink in her life never did a drug in her life. She did smoke cigarettes, but that was the extent of her use in any way.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm always interested to find out when people discover that what they're experiencing is not normal. Because when we're immersed in it, that's all we know. So for you, this must have seen like, well, this is how everyone leaves. When did you realize it wasn't?
 
Ryan Roy 
Yeah, you know, Rodney, that's a fantastic question. And thanks for asking it. I think at a young age we I grew up in in Connecticut, for those of you who are unfamiliar, Connecticut is in the northeast of the United States. And then we we moved when I was seven and a half years old down to South Florida, which is in the bottom southeastern portion of the United States about a 1500 mile difference. And at that point, I was in the third grade. And I started, you know, I think around that age third and fourth grade as children, we start to do sleepovers at other people's houses, and things of that nature. And I, I slept over a friend's house. And there wasn't the chaos. As as I will describe it today, there wasn't the in and out of people in and out of the house there there was there was structure. There was consistency. There was, you know, my mom worked long hours. So there was always food in the house, but I kind of had to fend for myself at a very young age. Mom was there. And she cooked us a meal and asked us what we wanted to do. And, and there was a bedtime, and there was a bath time. And I went back home. And I was like, well, that's not what I normally experience. So I think I would have to say around third or fourth grade, you know, 7, 8, 9 years old.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Was that a sense of hope for you in knowing that things could be different? Or was it more a case of Well, that's how everyone else has got it. But this is how I'm stuck.
 
Ryan Roy 
You know, another fantastic question. I think, as time went on it, I don't think in that moment, I thought it was a sense of hope but I realized there was another way. And if I were to find that, then it would probably be a better way of living. And I think it was a sense of hope. Because I knew there was another way of living that was, for lack of a better term more comfortable than the way I was living. And it was something that I could strive for, because I didn't just see it on television, right? I actually witnessed it. And it was just happening two blocks down the road at my friend's house,
 
Rodney Olsen 
You say that you saw your siblings go through things that they shouldn't have been going through through dangerous and risky behavior. And you managed to stay out of that. What did you do in the place of that kind of behavior to to keep yourself away from it?
 
Ryan Roy 
You must have done this once or twice, because these are actually really fantastic questions. I witnessed what it was doing to my mother at a young age. So as she was dealing with them going in and out of, you know, jail, or juvie, or detention centers, or whatever it may have been, or in and out of hospitals. I just I think she had a conversation, she goes, I hope you never do this to me. And I think that always stuck with me, if she didn't actually have that conversation. I had it with myself, I didn't want to hurt my mother the way they were hurting. So I always, again, trying to protect my mother didn't want to have that experience happen for her. So what I did, personally, is I dove into sports. Now again, my mom didn't put me in Little League or soccer or anything like that. But at school, I would show up to school early and a bunch of friends and I would play American football. for two hours before school even started. At lunch, we'd play football and after school, I would play football. And as I got older that led into I live really close to a beach, heading to the beach, a mile down the road and playing beach volleyball.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm still wondering, though, for this young man that we're talking about who has experienced such a fractured life to this point. There's this sense of empathy that you have for your mother and you're not wanting to disappoint, I guess part of it is is wanting that acceptance and wanting that from your mom. But but it's an empathy that sounds like it goes beyond that. Where do you think that's come from?
 
Ryan Roy 
Oh, my mom's a pretty amazing woman in a lot of ways, right? She has gone through a lot of hard things herself, and not not knowing that at that age. I think my mother, always even though it was extremely busy, always took the time to sit and talk. I feel as though what little time she had free. She actually spent teaching me really important life lessons. So when my siblings were going through some of that in and out of jail and things of that nature. I remember her at a very early age, you asked about my earliest memories. This is another early one probably right around that time, maybe five and a half, six years old, where she had a conversation with me about right and wrong. She says Listen, I've done my job. I taught you right from wrong. And there's consequences for actions in life. And I think it's because one of my brothers had just got arrested that week. And she was frustrated. And she just wanted to share this lesson with me. So she went through a series of questions. She goes, is this right or is this wrong? And she literally, I answered them all she goes, You answered every single one of those right? I've done my job. It's your choice. That when you make a choice to do something, whether it's right or wrong, you get to suffer the consequences and she actually went through She goes, listen, Ryan, you can do anything you want in life, as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences, both positive and negative. If she says, so if you were to kill somebody, what could happen? I was like, I guess you could go to jail for life? She goes, yes. So you can do that if you want to. She goes, I don't suggest it. But you can do it, knowing there's a consequence. I think I've always known about consequences based on that or even thought about consequences. So that helped me growing up, hey, do I want to do recreational drugs with my friends or not? There's a consequence to that. And I've seen what the consequences are that in my own family's life. And that's just one conversation I have with my mom, there's so many that she just sat with me, and taught me simple life lessons. So to me, that was her showing me love. But she took the time to give me that love, and frankly, wisdom. And I always wanted to respect her for it.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And there's something incredibly empowering about choices and consequences, rather than just Oh, don't do that. No reason, when we start to understand that if she was empowering you even at that young age,
 
Ryan Roy 
Absolutely. We could call it what it is. But as a as a believer, and a man of faith. I look back, and I feel as though I could have gone so many different directions in life. But I always feel like I had God's hand on my shoulder even though I didn't have a relationship with him. Early on in my life. As I look back, there's so many choices I could have made and we can say that, you know, mom gave me that wisdom but I think God gave her that wisdom to impart onto me.
 
Rodney Olsen  
Where does life lead from here? You're into sports? And I imagine that you becoming quite good at it. Does that lead any way for you?
 
Ryan Roy 
Yeah, absolutely. As as we described, it was kind of an escape for me. None of my siblings had ever gone to college. College wasn't something that was ever spoken of in my household. It was like, hey, you're going to go through school. Your job is to go through school. That's what mom knew in school was to graduate from high school. That was the expectation there were no further expectations. But because I drowned myself, in sport, I spent so many hours on a beach playing volleyball. I did get pretty good at it. And at some point, in my junior year in high school, I was offered a scholarship to play volleyball in college. And very unexpected. I remember when the scout came to the school to watch my teammate who is a senior play, how it's trimming up a little of emotion. I've never seen a coach. I got to play them. Excuse me. I have to play my best game because I want Josh to get this scholarship. Oh, I played my best game that day. Statistically, I was a setter. And I had I think my best game prior to that was like 23 assists. And I had 46 that that night. Josh had an incredible game. After the game coach went and sat with the the coach that came to scout him. Coach was a mentor of mine. We'd often get on the phone after a game, talk about the game talk about how we can improve. Talk about the upcoming opponent. And I said so as Josh could get scholarship. And he says yeah, goes but I have some good news for you. They want you too. A very pivotal point in my life.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's obviously very powerful when there's a man of influence who's putting their faith in you something that you've not had to this point in your life here. Absolutely.
 
Ryan Roy 
And he was actually a friend of mine. He was much older than I he had gone to the same school. We hadn't attended school at the same time. And he was just four years older than I and he came to coach the volleyball team. I knew him from playing on the beach. And I trusted him to guide me right because I had no other guidance. So the camaraderie of playing on a team being needed wanted, and being a significant part of a team played a very instrumental role at that point in my life, because like I said, not only did it get me a scholarship, but prior to that, it gave me purpose. It gave me a reason to go to school because school was a place for me to go play football for whatever reason The academic part of it wasn't important. It wasn't stressed in my house right survival was more important. often say I was, you know, in survival mode I was worried about if I was going to come home to a house that had, you know, a VCR stolen and sold for drugs, or if another one of my brothers was being arrested, or if, you know, I didn't know what I was going into when I went home. So leaving for school early to play football and staying after school, late to play football, or go to the beach and play volleyball, was because I didn't really care to be at home, having a structure of once we got into high school, and there were structured sports in high school, and having a coach pour into me, and I'll share this, we actually won a championship. And being a focal point of that championship team, and then relying on me was  a big why for me to show up to school because the academic portion wasn't difficult for me. It just wasn't much of interest to me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you've learned what it's like to have people who believe in you who trusting you, who are helping you to put this structure in place. But I'm sure that there's still this yearning to connect with not just a father figure, but your father did you try and reach out to your dad?
 
Ryan Roy 
Yeah, so going through school, graduating, getting a degree can get you multiple degrees, I got two degrees coming out of college, did a double major, getting my first job being much more successful than I thought I would be just a few years earlier, I had this yearning to share that with the man who created me, I can honestly say, even to this day, even with all the reflection, that I don't think I ever had the strong desire, prior to that point, to reach out to my father really know who he was. But at this point, I consider myself successful. And I wanted to share that with the person who created me, I had this thought of, wow, I'm a pretty amazing guy. And I've done a lot of good things, there has to be a man out there that created me that would want to know this. And that would want to be proud and say, Hey, I'm proud of you, son. So I knew my mother knew who he was. I knew she knew where he was. And I went to her and I said, Mom, I need to know. And I need to meet my dad. And I want and I'm gonna go do this. As I know where he is, and I know how to connect with him. I just want to give you an opportunity to share your side of the story because I've never asked, because I don't I want to give you that opportunity. So is there anything that I should know? And mom basically said, some superficial things, you know, didn't work out. And, you know, in what I do remember, because there wasn't anything significant in that conversation is her saying and tell him that he still owes me a couple years of child support. And my immediate thought was, oh, man, I thought to myself, I'm not gonna ask him to pay child support. That's what I'm not, I'm not going there for that. That's something you would have to do. Long story short, shortly after that, I go, I meet him. I sit in his living room. And we have a four hour discussion. And I think it was just my sales pitch of what a great person I had become. I showed him my accolades from school, I showed him my degrees, I showed him pictures of my big office overlooking downtown Miami. And then at the end of the conversation, and he just listened, and I thank him so much for this. I listened. He listened to me for all that time. And I said, and I just have one question. After all this, why did you not reach out? Why did you not want to be a part of my life? And he says, I don't want to bad mouth. Your mom. She's obviously done an amazing job as you're an amazing young man. But you asked me a good question. And I want to tell you my truth. As much as I would like for you to be my son. I don't believe that you are. And he gave me his reasons. And in that moment, Rodney, I think I was strong once again. And all I said to him, as I said, that's your belief in Are you willing to take a DNA test to prove it? Because I would like to know. And he agreed to do so. So we took a DNA test and six weeks later it came back. That's it He was not my father, which led to a lot of hurt and betrayal from mom and 10 years of a lot of anger as she didn't want to answer my questions. But as I brought it to her attention, she very nonchalantly once I got the DNA test back and told her that he wasn't my father, she very nonchalantly said, My biological father's name, which brought up even more anger, because I told you, I gave her that opportunity to share anything that I might need to know going in to meet the man on my birth certificates. You know, so I was hurt, anger felt betrayed. I had been what I felt is abandoned by my father at age five. Now I'm being betrayed by my mother, not a lot of answers over the next 10 years and I just like, like I did in high school, I buried myself in a career in work, and felt lost.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I can't imagine how much that would have heard because there's this mom, who has always been there not always done the greatest job, but certainly always tried to do the greatest job. And to find at that point, that she had misled you towards who your father was, it must have been a deeper.
 
Ryan Roy 
Yeah, absolutely. It was a deep hurt and a lot of anger. I'm one who likes to communicate, and I probably didn't communicate. as best I communicated as best I could, at the time with the hurt that I had. But there were a lot of letters asking for answers, or a lot of phone calls, or a lot of Mom, please explain to me what went on. Because I was just trying to figure it all out, and again, had this hole in my heart. So, so much so that I was in and out of relationships with women. And I almost vowed to myself subconsciously, that I was never going to have children of my own, simply because I didn't think that I wouldn't be a good father necessarily. I thought that I didn't have an example of what it looked like to be in a healthy relationship, I didn't know what that looked like, and feared that I wouldn't be able to stay in a relationship and therefore anyone I brought into the world may experience the same experience I had, and that is of a broken parent household. And I didn't want to bring somebody into that experience, knowing the hardships that it caused myself.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned before that even at that point, you weren't a person of faith, but that you knew God was working in the background. And I strongly believe that God had something else in store for you because you weren't going to stay without a steady relationship or without steady children were you?
 
Ryan Roy 
No, it wasn't and thank God for that. I told you, I buried myself in work and and I suffered some hardships in that as I didn't have a lot of guidance and mentorship. So although I became successful, in a lot of ways that people would consider success, a lot of money, cars, houses, it all fell apart in 2008. When the real estate collapse happened in the United States, I suffered a bankruptcy, as I had multiple properties as I was flipping real estate at the time, buying houses fixing up and selling them. And it was a low point in my life, because I was at least good at that. And I wasn't even good at that anymore. I was I told you I never really did drugs. I never drank. But for a six month period, I must say that I sat at a bar, wallowing in my own stuff. I didn't share with anybody what was going on in my life. At the end, it was six months knowing I had to file for bankruptcy and every last dollar dwindling on what bank accounts I had. And the credit cards knocking at the door in the debt just amounting to seven figures. I had a conversation with myself. And it's interesting because it was right before Christmas again, as the new year was about to roll around. And I had a conversation with myself at this point. I didn't have a relationship with God. But I said Ryan, this is not you. You know better you can do better. And sitting at a bar for way too many hours each day. And each night is not ever going to get you where you could go you're a fighter, you've always been a fighter. So on January one, my friend I was giving myself another week through the holidays to to get through this you are going to turn over a new leaf and become your old self again and stop this drinking foolishness that you're going through. I had that conversation with myself I believe it was December 23 on December 28. This bar I went to I'm an avid football fan as you not only did I play but I enjoy the game. So at this bar that I hung out They had a sports, it was a sports bar, I would go and watch the game there. And that day, my wife walked into that bar. And she was wearing my team's jersey, she happened to sit two stools down from me at the bar, and the person in between was an acquaintance of hers and an acquaintance of mine. I think God planted her in my life that day. Not only that, I told you, I gave you a date of January 1. January 1 was our first date, if you would, it was actually it's actually her birthday also. So it's pretty amazing. I believe our God has a sense of humor. And I think that day, he was chuckling just like you just did.
 
Rodney Olsen 
That's a strong move, having the first date on her birthday. Well done for that.
 
Ryan Roy 
Thank you. I was pretty aggressive and not shy. You know, I worked quickly, but uh, you know, I was still in a state of brokenness, I wasn't looking for a relationship, I don't think she was either. She had come out of a relationship recently herself, I had come out of a relationship six, seven months earlier, myself, I don't think either one of us were looking for that. And that was the beauty of this relationship. We weren't masking anything. We had really deep conversations about life, we had really deep conversations about what we thought we wanted in life from a partner, right? I think when we're younger, we talk about what we want. And I think as we grow older, and go through some relationships, we started understanding, there's certain things that we won't accept, or tolerate. And we create these real expectations of what it looks like to be in a relationship as opposed to these false like, oh, he has to be six to enhance them, for the girl. And you know, and for the guy like she has to be, you know, she has to laugh at every single one of my jokes and be really cute and, and whatever those expectations that people put on that are superficial when they're young, her things were, I need my man to respect me, my previous relationship. He wasn't abusive physically, but he was verbally, right, he spoke to her poorly. And she's like, I will not put up with that. For me. I just can't even pinpoint it now, because I don't know what those relationships look like. Because at this point, I have a 12 year successful relationship and a 10 year successful marriage. So I don't I don't even remember what a very unhealthy relationship looks like. Because it's very much a part of my past. And I thank God for that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're married and still you have in the back of your mind that you don't necessarily want children because you don't want to see those same mistakes repeated.
 
Ryan Roy 
Yeah. So I'll tell you as it started getting serious with my wife and I, as we started realizing we were falling in love she she wanted to have a very serious conversation with me. And she says to me, one day, she says, Well, how do you feel about having children? And like any smart man, I asked the question, Well, how do you feel because I knew how I felt right? It was one of my biggest fears to have children. And she says, Well, if it's a deal breaker for you, I need to share this because the doctors told me as I had an ovarian cyst at one point in my life, that there's a 5% chance that I would ever be able to bear children only a 5% chance. Internally, Rodney, I did a fist pump. I think I did a backflip I probably had the biggest grin on my face internally, I showed my poker face and at that point, because I'm falling in love with a woman that will never have the ability in my mind. For me to face my greatest fear. Not going to have to have children. We love to travel. We're having a great time together. She has a solid foundation, her career. I'm going through a little bit of turmoil, but I know I'm going to get back on my feet. She's chosen to stop by my side as she knew all the challenges I was facing financially, and some of them emotionally Hause. Like, wow, this is great. I've hit the lottery. So I chose to marry her. She said yes. I chose to ask her. She said yes. And on our wedding night. She says what are we going to do about this kid thing? And in my mind, I'm like, well, you said you have a 5% chance. And I said to her, I said, let's just do we do, let's enjoy each other. Let's have fun. And whatever happens happens. And six weeks later, we conceived in our New Year's Eve that year 2010. Going into 2011, we got the pregnancy test back positive and I realized that I was about to be a father. And I was ecstatic. But that fear was still there. And that fear turned into a positive. And I said not only am I going to be fully present, but I'm going to make the choice to be a dad that I wish I had, I just define that as being fully present.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And so that's the the track that you're wanting to be on, I guess there's still some nervousness. But at least you've decided within yourself, things are going to be different, you're going to be the dad that you wish that you had had. So how did that turn out?
 
Ryan Roy 
Well, thus far, I like to think I'm doing a pretty good job. And I'll share a quick story of my nine year old as I have two boys now, both of them are absolutely amazing. They're the loves of my life, being a father is one of the greatest gifts God could have ever given me. And I'm so grateful for it, because it allows me to live, relive my childhood, in a lot of ways through them, right, we get to play sports, we get to do things. But I get to see the joy in my boys, and it's not an escape for them. Right? When we just have conversations like my mom had with me, I hear a lot of my mom's wisdom come out of me. But it's in a completely safe space where they know that they're loved, they know that they're safe. And I think those are two of the most important things that any child can have, in order to have whatever they define as success as an adult. I'll tell you this quick story that my son shared with me just the other day, he has some friends that are dealing with some challenges. One of his best friends lost his mother two years ago to a massive heart attack, she was only 42 years old. So I can only imagine what that young man is going through being raised just by his father, and basically having witnessed his mother passing at, you know, seven years old when that happen. And because of that, I think he's out lashing towards my son a little bit. And I think there's a level of jealousy, right. And we we talked through that, you know, he's jealous. And we went through the reasons. And he said, I said, Does that make sense to you? hurt people hurt people, and he's hurt right now. And he's not doing it because he doesn't like you. I think he's actually doing it because he admires you. I said, so let's just sympathize and empathize with where he is. I'm not saying what he is doing is right. But do you ever have a sense of jealousy towards somebody else? He says, Why would I ever want to be somebody else? I love who I am. So that leads me to believe that I'm on the right path of whatever I'm doing as a parent. But how did I get there? I didn't have a father. I had a mother who worked long hours and did her best. There was food on the table. It was a roof over our head, there were some very intentional conversations. But that day to day, that moment to moment, I was there to guide myself. Or, as I like to put it, I watched what my brothers and sisters did, and vowed not to do that. Do you see a common theme there? And thank you for that in this interview, because I just discovered that for myself. I went to the experts. I read every magazine, there were actually a couple parenting podcasts that I listened to 910 years ago at this point, I asked my friends who I thought had a grasp on this parenting thing. Because they had children themselves. I actually went to Facebook and asked every single person on my Facebook that I went to high school with that had kids, I private message, every single one of them and I said if there was one nugget as a parent, you'd like to pass on, what would it be. And I got some golden nuggets out of that. I just researched what it looked like to be a good dad. And then I took what my gut said to be a good dad. And I formulated into being fully present, have schedule have structure, tell them and show them that you love them in so many other simple, simple, simple lessons that I try to use absolutely every day of this parenting journey.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So all along, you're gathering this advice, you're putting these things into practice. And you're probably feeling Yeah, I'm doing okay, sense of nervousness, but I'm doing okay. But of course, you were abandoned by your father at the age of five. So as you're approaching your son's fifth birthday, Was there some extra nervousness there? Was there something special that that happened at that time, that let you know you're on the right track.
 
Ryan Roy 
So approaching his fifth birthday, I had started talking to, unbeknownst to me a number of Christians just based on my, my profession, and surrounding myself and they were surrounding themselves with me. And one of my clients, a Christian. We're on a client call one day, and he says, Hey, Ryan, can I just ask you a personal question? I said, Sure. He goes, have you ever given yourself to the Lord? And I was like, I go, you know, we've been attending church. I'm trying to have a relationship. If I don't know what that looks like I said, if you mean going and getting baptized, you know, I haven't really done that. And he says, Have you ever said the Lord's Prayer? And I said, I don't think I have he goes, Well, if you don't think you have you probably haven't. He goes, let me ask you a few questions. So sure, he goes, do you believe that Jesus died on the cross? so that you could be forgiven for your sins? I said, Yeah, I believe that. He goes, do you believe that they they put them in a tomb, and he was there for three days was again, I believe that that's what it says in the Bible. You believe that he rose again? I said, I do. And he goes, do you believe that? He's here for your salvation and to guide you? I said, I do. He says, Well, do you want to say a prayer with me and accept Him into your heart? And I said, is that what I need to do? He goes, if you want to have eternal life, that's part of the process. I said, then let's do that. And we did it on the phone that day, and it just so happened to be August 30 2016. And my son's birthday is August 31. The amazing thing is years later, not even years, maybe months later, I was talking to my friend there, my client at the time and friend now. And we were reminiscing about that I said, You know, I didn't really realize that at the time. I didn't realize the impact that I didn't know what I was doing. He goes I know you didn't most people don't. I go but it was, as I went and looked at my journals, I said it was the day before Christian's fifth birthday. He goes, that is so amazing. He goes I gave myself to the Lord. The day before his youngest daughter's fifth birthday. Another God funny. I think he looks down on us. And he laughs He goes, Yeah, I have this all I have this plan. I'm orchestrating it. And yeah, it's just amazing. How if we really look how God shifts in our life, and how he works in her life, and if we really pay attention, that he's always there,
 
Rodney Olsen 
You have taken the fears, you've taken the nervousness about parenting, and you've decided, Hey, there might be some others in the same boat. And so you've been making a difference for other dads in helping them to come to terms with what being a dad is about. Maybe you can tell us a little about that.
 
Ryan Roy 
Yeah, so there's no coincidence, right? God has a plan. And I had just given myself to the Lord, my son had just started kindergarten. So he just entered school. They had a program at the school called fathers being involved. And I was super excited to be a part of this group. When I sign up for the mailing list, there weren't a lot of names on the list. But I thought my wife and I had just gotten to the school early as they had open house and and I waited patiently by my computer to wait for an email from this father's being involved group. They said there was a meeting, I showed up to the meeting. And it was just me and the guy who sent out the email. And I said, well, where are all the dads? And he says, you know, although it's called fathers being involved, it just doesn't seem like the dads want to be involved. And I knew in my heart of hearts, that was false, because I felt a certain way about that I wanted to be involved. I had been involved for the last five years. In everything my son didn't, I wasn't going to stop because there was a broken program at the school. So I decided to take over the FBI dads group, and I've grown it from me and that guy, to over 400 dads are on our mailing list. And pre COVID when we were doing in person events, we average over 155 dads showing up to a breakfast event, where we do an interactive lesson with the kids, we laugh, we joke, we scream, we yell, we eat a doughnut, we talk, we have the dads look into their kids eyes and tell them why they're proud of them. And it's just been a tremendous success, so much so that it's received some accolades. And there are people at the county and state level asking how we get this into more schools.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I really believe that most dads want to do a good job, but they really don't know how. So here you are, you're starting to hand him the keys, what sort of a response you're getting back from, from both those dads and some of the kids
 
Ryan Roy 
Well the dads. It's amazing because I get these emails that just say simple things like thank you so much. I know this has had a huge impact on my relationship with my daughter or my son. I've had responses or dads come up to me and say, you know, I didn't know where I fit in at the school. But I feel super comfortable coming to these events. And there's so much fun. The kids I hear through the dads but the kids often won't let the dads miss an FBI dad's event right and FBI stands for fathers being involved. Just hearing the stories of the dads saying like they won't let me go. From the counselors at the school and the teachers and the administration. They say they absolutely love seeing the hallways crowded with dads, what a great problem to have. Our biggest problem on an FBI dad's breakfast is opening the doors to the school early, and parking. Because the carpool line is just crazy that morning. And I see the Facebook feeds for the school that say, oh, it must be an FBI dad's breakfast for the moms and they say it in a positive way. Right. It's great to see so many dads flood the hallways, we're glad that we had such a positive impact. The test scores in the school have gone up, the camaraderie in the school has gone up. Not only do we have the dads come to breakfast, but we have the dads do reader days where after a breakfast we have the dads disperse into the classrooms and read to the kids. So to have 60 dads fill 60 classrooms and read has been a tremendous impact. And then a couple times a year, we get the dads to roll up their sleeves and do things that we absolutely love to do, which is you know, pressure cleaning school drop pine straw pull weeds. We're doing a project right now where we're we're rebuilding an outdoor stage at the school. And the dads really, really, really feel a part of the community of the school, not just dropping them off or picking him up occasionally at the carpool line.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's a remarkable response to this program that that you're implementing there along with others as well. And I've got to say, Ryan, that while your earthly father didn't want to walk the journey of life with you, I get the feeling that your heavenly Father is just continuing to smile. And he's filling that gap, although I'm sure there's still some pain there, that your heavenly Father is filling the gap that was left when your earthly father walked away is that the experience for you?
 
Ryan Roy 
The experience for me, once I gave myself to the Lord and trusted and started to really have a relationship with Him through studying his words, getting in men's groups and understanding other men's experience with God and, and talking through that with them and, and surrounding myself with fellow Christians while still being a part of the world, so that I can impact with my story, those who may not have a relationship with God, the best way that I can describe it. And I wholeheartedly hope everybody has this experience when they choose to have a relationship with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ is a sense of peace and that peace helped me define my purpose, because I was able to listen without distraction. And I believe God's purpose for me is to help heal the father child relationship here on Earth, while I'm here to really pour into that. And it's so simple. And I think men fear this so much, because we don't want to fail that things that a lot of men don't show up. Or they show up the way they believe society has told them to show up, like go earn a paycheck. And just like our Heavenly Father, and what you desire, and what I desire, and whatever little girl and every little boy and whatever adult on this planet desires is to be loved. Through actions and through words. And if we could just show up and have those simple conversations like my mom had with me, because I know my mother loved me, although she wasn't perfect. Because I know she poured into me because she said so. And she did so through her actions. I think just showing up and telling our kids like we do at an FBI dads breakfast, son, daughter, I am proud of you because in finish it that sentence, often for our children. And then follow that up with a I love you. Which is followed up with in many ways, words and actions, I believe in you. And I trust you. Because I think those are all the things that our heavenly father say to us every single day. And if, as parents, we could say those four things. I'm proud of you. I love you. I believe in you. And I trust you through your actions and words. I think the journey becomes a lot easier for you as a parent and for your child receiving that love. And I think that's what God's put me on this planet and that's what my purpose is to relay that message to as many people as I possibly can.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Ryan I'm going to put some links in the show notes at bleeding guideline dotnet so that people can get in touch with you find out more about FBI dads or even to have a look at your book that you wrote about being the dad I wish I had. What's the easiest place for people to find you?
 
Ryan Roy 
Yeah, the easiest way is just that bethedadyouwishyouhad.com that has my podcast that has pretty much anything you need. If you want to know more about FBI dads, you could go to FBIdads.com. Those are the two best ways to get hold of me,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Ryan, it really has been a delight to talk to you to hear your story, to hear some of that pain, that very real pain that's there but to also hear the healing and the transformation and now the transformation that you're bringing into the lives of others. Thank you for spending some time on Bleeding Daylight today.
 
Ryan Roy 
Thank you, Rodney for having me.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

Life for Suzanne Burns went off the rails when she left home as a young woman. From a very sheltered upbringing, she soon found herself using drugs and alcohol and shortly afterwards becoming a single mother.
Suzanne has spent the last 20 years serving others. Part of that service includes being the founder and executive director of Foundation House, a maternity home for pregnant and homeless women, which offers educational and job training programs. She holds a Master of Science in Marriage and Family Studies from Lee University Cleveland. She's a certified Family Trauma Professional and a member of the International Association of Trauma Professionals, the National Center for Crisis Management and the American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress. Suzanne also serves on the Executive Council for the National Maternity Housing Coalition, as well as the Leadership Council for the Southeast Tennessee Commission on Children and Youth. 
 
Foundation House maternity home ministry: http://foundationhouseministries.org/
Job training program: https://healingspringsgifts.com/ 
Suzanne's coaching/training site: https://www.becharitywise.com/traumachurch
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Thank you for listening today. I’ve got a powerful interview with a remarkable woman coming up in just a moment.
 
You can find and follow Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please recommend this and other episodes to your friends and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts.
 
Suzanne Burns has spent the last 20 years serving others. Part of that service includes being the founder and executive director of Foundation House, a maternity home for pregnant and homeless women, which offers educational and job training programs. Today we'll be hoping to find out what sparked that desire to help others. Suzanne, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Suzanne Burns 
Hi, Rodney, how are you today?
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm very well. Now you hold a Master of Science in Marriage and Family Studies from Lee University Cleveland. You're a certified Family Trauma Professional and a member of the International Association of Trauma Professionals, the National Center for Crisis Management and the American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress. You also serve on the Executive Council for the National Maternity Housing Coalition, as well as the Leadership Council for the Southeast Tennessee Commission on Children and Youth. You could certainly be described as being a high achiever but life hasn't always looked that way for you has it?
 
Suzanne Burns 
No, not at all. Not at all.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Take us back a little bit and tell us a little bit of your early story.
 
Suzanne Burns 
So I was raised in a very Christian home. I was I was a rainbow baby. So for those of you that maybe aren't familiar with that term, that means my parents had at least one miscarriage, my parents actually had three before they had me. And then they had my brother 22 months later. And so I grew up in a very kind of protected bubble. I didn't realize I lived in a bubble until I got to college, which was 1800 miles from home. And even though I was at a private Christian school, I had no real idea what to do with my freedom. And so very quickly, I found out that I did not know how to use my freedom wisely and so by the time I got to my junior year, I was smoking, I was drinking, I was experimenting with illegal drugs and, you know, then one day I wake up pregnant and so for me, those were some of the hardest years that I've ever had to face. You know, I kind of liken it to the old frog in a frying pan adage. I was in the midst of this dating relationship and you know, I just kind of woke up one day, and I had no idea how I had gotten to that point. It took me quite a few years to get myself back out of that mess but I definitely learned a lot along the way.
 
Rodney Olsen 
There's a tension there isn't there for parents who are wanting to provide the best upbringing for their children, and in your case for your family, wanting to bring you up in that Christian environment and wanting the best for you. But at the same time, probably not allowing you to see what lies beyond those walls and what's happening in the real world. Can you talk to us a little of that sort of tension?
 
Suzanne Burns 
Yeah, for sure. So much of it is really my understanding, both from hindsight. And then also, you know, having raised my own sons, I have a 15 year old still at home. And then I also have a 21 year old who's in the US Marine Corps. You know, for me growing up, I never had a curfew. I didn't even get my driver's license until I was 17. And honestly, that was just so that I got it before my brother did by two days, technically, but I got it before he did. But the reason was that I just I didn't have any need for it. My parents were content to drive me everywhere. They provided everything I needed. And so I I just grew up, really not, not needing it. I found out in high when I was in high school, I found out that one of my boyfriend's in my senior year had been one of the school's largest drug dealers. And I had no idea we only dated for I don't know, maybe 6, 6, 8 weeks, something like that. Not very long. But I had absolutely no idea until probably two years after we had graduated, and somebody was telling me about it. And so I I just was incredibly naive and I was very innocent. And so you know that that was my parents' intent but in hindsight, it did not serve me very well because I didn't have a frame of reference. When I when I got to school, and the mid 90s, the legalizing drugs was was becoming much more common topic of conversation, especially a young among young people. And so for me it It wasn't that I didn't know my Christian heritage and my Christian beliefs. I think honestly, it was at my roots were not deep enough. I had never really made the decisions, to be obedient to what Scripture says. I was just kind of floating along in somebody else's wind. You know, my parents kind of blew me along in in their trajectory but when I got to school, now other people's philosophies, other people's belief systems are shifting mine, because I didn't have roots of my own.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So would it be fair to say that, despite your parents best intention, they actually brought you up to have a Christian morality, rather than to have a deep Christian faith?
 
Suzanne Burns 
Ooh, yes, that is exactly right. And my mom would be heartbroken. So I can't let her hear you say that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Look, I think it's one of those things that for all of us as, as parents, we want the best for our children, but there's no manual. And so often we, we do find it difficult to know exactly which way to go. And to be able to bring our children up with with morals and integrity, that's certainly something that we want. But knowing that that one to one relationship with Jesus is something quite separate to that. And that's what we're trying to guide our children towards. But it doesn't always happen that way, does it?
 
Suzanne Burns 
Right. And I really think that one of the biggest issues that I, that I see, not only in the women that I minister to now, but also as I look back, I think that we don't, we don't acknowledge the need for learning through the hard things, we, we want to make everything good and safe and protect our kids but we don't ever let them learn things the hard way. And, you know, we have, we have mothers and fathers calling us frequently and their daughters are in jail, and they want to get her out, because you know, no one wants their baby girl to be in jail. But at the same time, that's not necessarily what's in her best interest. In fact, sometimes she needs to stay there because she truly will not get the mind change, she will not come to terms with the needing to change unless she stays in jail. Because the Holy Spirit has to have has to put you in the place where you will hear his voice. And if somebody else is continually coming in and shortcutting that trying to help, you know, all too often we try to help God and and end up making things so much worse. I think that's the one of the greatest issues.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So often when we're protecting our children and those we love from the natural consequences that should come their way.
 
Suzanne Burns 
Right? Exactly.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You slipped into this time of drinking of using drugs. Let me understand how it was for you. Because you'd been brought up in this, this very Christian environment. And suddenly you have these freedoms? Was it a bit of a test for you? At first you started thinking I shouldn't? Or was it easy to start falling into these ways knowing that you're now surrounded by people with different philosophies with with a different worldview? How was that tension within yourself?
 
Suzanne Burns 
So I started dating this guy, he was much older, he was about six years older than me. So he was out of school, he was a musician, he was very cool and lived, you know, a completely different lifestyle than what I was accustomed to. So for me, it was partly, like wanting to seem grown up and and wanting to kind of fit in. And partly It was like, well, it was justification. It was like smoke. So smoking came first, you know, on our, I don't know, second or third date, I found out that he smoked and well, you know, he's he's older. He's age to buy tobacco in America is 21. And so he was 20. I don't know, 526 at the time. And so I thought, well, you know, it's okay, it's acceptable, because he's an adult, he's old enough. And by this point, I was also 21. So, so it was like, I could justify it. And then and then it was alcohol. And it was like, Well, you know, I, here I am. 21. And so now I get to drink alcohol legally. And so of course, it must be okay. Because some denominations say that it's not a problem. And my heritage said that it was a problem. But But clearly, it's not because clearly other people are allowed to do this. And then you know, it's like, well, you know, marijuana is not that big of a deal. Most people think it ought to be legalized anyways, and, and and then by the time we got to the harder thing is the the acid was really the only other hard thing that I ever tried, which I gotta be honest, I completely loved but don't, don't want to ever go back to it again. It was like an easy justification on along the way. And the crazy thing is, maybe it's because we're in the in the south here in the US. And maybe it's more common throughout others who are active drug users, but they're a very spiritual population. And so it's easy if you don't have strong moral grounding, and you only have kind of what you might call head knowledge. It's very easy to fall into this kind of moral justification, where you're sitting around completely stoned and yet you're talking about scripture, and you know, what Jesus would do if he were in the room with us, and, and so it was like I could continue to pretend that all of this was perfectly acceptable and all of it somehow fit together.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You mentioned that you went through this time of using different substances, and then finding yourself pregnant, was that the point where you realized, I need to do something that this track is not leading me the right way?
 
Suzanne Burns 
Unfortunately, no, I was not quite ready for that yet. I did move back home to have my son. And my, my boyfriend was, you know, we were on again off again. And then finally, we got married. Partly because by this point, I was living 1800 miles away with my parents. And I didn't want to be the reason that my son didn't know his father. But I also didn't know how to move across country without my family support system without getting married without creating a new support structure. And so in hindsight, I feel like that was probably that was like the nexus of the bad decision, we got married, it was not good. It hadn't been good for a long time. And so it was equally bad. While we were married, we got married, we were married almost two full years. So my first husband, because he's a musician, somehow felt like that meant that he did not need to actually work for a living. He was just supposed to play music and play video games. And I was the one who was supposed to pay all the bills. And so because of that, I was working, selling mortgages, I was selling insurance, I was doing whatever I could to try to make more than minimum wage. And so one particular day I had been, I had had several different appointments, trying to sell some insurance. And just none of them went well at all. And so as I'm picking up my son from my then mother in law's home, I was just kind of complaining to her. And, you know, I still talk to the talk, because his parents were, were deeply religious, just like mine had been. And so I still knew how to talk the talk. And I was just telling her, you know, I just don't understand why God's not blessing me. You know, we were working so hard, and I'm just, I'm going on all these appointments, and just really doing everything I know, to do to make this successful. And she just kind of very casually turned around, and looked at me and said, well, Honey, what are you doing that God can bless? And man, that just struck me to the core. And that was in November of 2000. And for a few days, I just kind of sat and mulled that over and really just thought, what what am I doing? What am I doing. And then there was a few nights later, my son was, you know, toddling around the couch and put his hand in the in the ashtray, because, of course, we're still smoking. And so his hand is dirty, and he's coughing, and he's got a runny nose. And it just occurred to me that you know, what, I'm causing this. I'm causing this because I want to smoke in our little, you know, cramped apartment, and he's breathing it in, what on earth am I doing, and it was like, the, the scales, and the the, the walls that I had built to hide behind, started crumbling. And from that point forward, I did not use any illegal drugs whatsoever. It took me longer to actually quit smoking. But by the time New Year's Eve of 2000, going into 2001, came about, I was ready to publicly acknowledge that I don't do these things any longer. And my first husband, I do believe that marriage is supposed to be permanent, is supposed to be forever. And I gave him the option to come out of that lifestyle with me, and we would remain married. And he chose not to. So in March of 2001, I left and my son and I moved out. And that was really, really difficult.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It must have been a very difficult decision, especially as you say, you believe that the marriage is life long and so as well as the weight of what you've just described, of realizing that you're putting your son through this difficult time in this small apartment and, and all that goes along with that, you're realizing that I've just had a marriage fail. Did it start to really pile up on you and what did you do? How did you seek release from that?
 
Suzanne Burns 
Oh, it was a lot of tears. A lot of a lot of crying out to the Lord. I actually spent. I spent probably six months In the book of Jeremiah, I don't know why that was the book that I gravitated to. Well, I started in the book of Daniel. And I've always loved Daniel, because that's my maiden name. And so that's always been kind of a special book, even though so much of it is so weird. It's always meant something special to me. So I started in Daniel, and then I just kind of began reading through, and ended up in Jeremiah and just was just captivated by the Lord at that point. And I'm mold through Jeremiah 29:11  through 13, and just really started learning how to put down those deeper roots in my faith. I started learning about the potter and how how he was crafting us into the vessels that he desired us to be, from the time that he originally thought of us. And so from there, it was just this idea that I, I am worth more, and I need to be more more useful to the Lord as in gratitude, and not in obligation but out of gratitude, because man, I've, I sure have screwed up the first 23, 24 odd years of my life. And I really appreciate that I am not lying in a ditch somewhere, I appreciate that I never got on to the harder drugs that are so much more difficult to break free from, I appreciate the the ways in which the Lord protected me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And it sounds as if when you are prepared to let go of those things that went right, that God actually fill that void. Because so often when we're afraid of, of letting go of those things that we know, are harmful. But we're not quite sure that we kind of find anything that's going to come close to filling those desires. And yet here God comes along and starts to fill those desires in your life.
 
Suzanne Burns 
Exactly. And we were just so foolish, we have no concept truly of how big and magnificent God is and the less we know about him, the less we we understand that. So while the more we learn about him, the more we learn there is to learn about him. And so when you're when you're very new in your faith, it's very difficult to let go and trust this, this big unseen God, that you you don't know if you can trust him or not. You don't know if he'll prove himself to you. Because when the people around you that you do see every day when when the people that are supposed to be the ones who are your protectors or your provider, when they're not doing their job, it's really difficult to then look to this unseen, unknown God and say, you know, I guess I'll put my faith in you. It's really very scary.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You're in the middle of this time where you're starting to become a bit more heavenly minded. But you're still walking through the stuff that you have to walk through here on Earth. Where's that bridge that took you from where you were at that time to where you are now? How did life start to unfold from there?
 
Suzanne Burns 
Well, you know, the Lord, it just knows, he always knows exactly what we need. And Jeremiah speaks of the creating the the path and the plans for us. And he knows what he's doing, even though it looks like a complete and total disaster from our angle. And that's where I find a lot of peace, a lot of rest the interest. After a couple of years of being a single parent, I started dating again. And then we got married. And then I had my second son who they're six years apart. And over the course of several more years of, you know, figuring out the whole blended family thing, which you know, isn't super fun. A lot of times, even though we're all invested in it, it's still it's still hard. And you understand when you're living it you really understand why God intended this to be one man and one woman becoming to becoming one flesh, because it is challenging. One day in charge, a gentleman came to speak and was talking about the sanctity of human life and talked about a program here in our town where they do pregnancy tests and support services for mothers who are who are pregnant but in in a difficult situation. And trying to help them avoid having to have an abortion or trying to help them avoid considering that an option. And so I was captivated. Because you know, these were the girls that I had been and I really wanted to be able to give back And felt like I was kind of at that point where I could. And so, you know, the Lord provided me a seven years of opportunity to work there. And I absolutely loved it. But over time, we began seeing more and more moms coming through who were in such dire situations, you know, they were living in their cars, they were trying to escape abusive boyfriends or abusive step parents, you know, they they had no job skills, they were 2324 had never worked, had no GED, you know, had no marketable skills, and really had no way to care for this child that they had created. Over the course of a couple of years, the Lord began laying on the heart that we really needed a residential program. here locally, we needed a place where these women could come and learn what they had not had the opportunity to learn as children. In 2014, foundation house was opened, which is a residential training program for mothers in crisis,
 
Rodney Olsen 
it must be quite powerful when you're speaking to some of those young mums to be able to say, I really do know what you're going through to be able to say, hey, I've walked this path before.
 
Suzanne Burns 
Yeah, and the funny thing is, is that they are very shocked when I tell them these things, it, they always, it's not so much that they look at me differently. But it's more that they realize that Oh, you do understand, you have been here, that does definitely help in in conveying to them that you know what you can do this, you can make the lasting changes. But now that we've been open, almost seven years, being able to bring back other graduates, others of our own moms can say more specifically, I lived in this house, you know, that was my bedroom down the hall. And here I am now, that is really even that much more powerful.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And that sense of example, must be very powerful. I know that what you're wanting to do is point people towards God. And yet at the same time, I'm sure it's not lost on you that people would be looking at you saying, if you can achieve all that, and you've come from here, maybe there is hope for me.
 
Suzanne Burns 
Yeah, exactly. Well, that's one thing I tell our volunteers a lot, and when I'm doing trainings for other ministries is that the trust is the most important thing. They, for the most part, if they do believe in God, they think that he's pretty stupid, or that he's very angry, or that he just doesn't care. Because the the facts of their life, the things that they've lived through, would would seem to demonstrate that. So you the one they see, you have to be that much more trustworthy. You have to prove God's faithfulness through you. So that eventually, hopefully, they will one day allow God to prove himself faithful. But we're the we're the message where the gospel that they see
 
Rodney Olsen 
What are some of the stories that have come out of some of the women that have been through the house?
 
Suzanne Burns 
Well, one of my favorites is Ashley, when she arrived, she came in September of 2018. And we had just launched our job training program. So she was eight months pregnant, had just come out of six months in jail. She was 28 years old, did not have a GED, did not have a driver's license and was also part of our recovery court system. From her completing that then the felonies that were on her criminal record would eventually be removed. And so she was in a really bad situation, did not have a whole lot of hope. And also had two older children that she did not have custody of. And so we get her in, we start building a relationship with her. We're teaching her how to make the lotions and soaps and wax melts and things like that, that we do as part of our job training program. And she just soaked it up. She just she loved it. And had never really considered it before but but it just spoke to her in in such a powerful way and really being able to go to like festivals and events where we were selling the products and having people come up and say Oh, I love the way the smells are. Oh this lotion makes my hands feel so soft. And for her to know that you know that that was me. That was my effort. It began to build in her self confidence that she had never known before. And so before she had been really resistant to getting her GED she Felt like oh, there's no way it's hopeless. Here. I'm 28 years old. It's just hopeless. I'm just, I've already wasted my opportunity. And so, one day after she had been growing and been been kind of loosening up and beginning to trust us a little bit more, we said, Why don't you just take the practice test, just just see, if you were to go in and take the test tomorrow, just see what you would get. And think she got a 27 out of 10 out of 30. So she was three points off. And when she realized how close she would have been, that lit a fire under her to begin doing GED classes. And in the midst of all of this, she's also seeking reunification with her kids and rebuilding those relationships. Because, of course, our kids have been traumatized all this time to having mom in jail. And, you know, Mom, mom, present but not present. She had been on drugs for, you know, probably six years at this point. And so she had to rebuild connections with her children, and eventually was was able to get custody restored of them. And so in 2019, she, she got her GED, she got her driver's license, she got her kids, her older kids custody back, she had her son, in 2018, she was able to buy a car. And through drug court, she began dating a young man who was also in recovery, and also was a Christian, she got saved and got baptized, she graduated drug court. And then in January of 2020, we celebrated our first foundation house wedding. And so we have this picture. Bo has one daughter, and then Ashley has her three children. And so we have this picture of them standing up there with at the altar with all four children and the two of them.
 
And it's just so magnificent.
 
Seeing how much hard work she put in, and how it's all paying off. And right now today, we're in the process of training her to come on as staff as a case manager for some of the new girls coming through now that she's a couple years beyond this. And it's just unbelievable, the light year difference that just a couple of years has made for her.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So Ashley, and Beau are now stepping into that blended family that you have, and you say is so difficult, but it must be powerful for them knowing that they have support behind them that they have people that are going to walk that journey alongside them.
 
Suzanne Burns 
For sure. For sure. Exactly. And that's really what we do. People always ask, Well, how long are the moms allowed to stay in your house and, and it's like, well, there really isn't a cut off time. Some programs say you know, six weeks postpartum, or you can stay up to a year. But really, it's like, what do you need, if she doesn't need to live in our house any longer than there's no reason to keep her. But if she does need to stay, then if we make her leave too soon, then then we're wasting our efforts and work. We're putting her and our child at risk to fall back into homelessness. But ultimately, it's about building those those family relationships. And so in a very real sense, Ashley is part of our family and always will be as long as she needs us. Even if it's just a chat on the phone, if it's just a call and commiserate even whether it's you know, to be frustrated because of the the annoying school pickup lines or things like that, you know it, we're part of the family, just like I call my mom, just to chat to not talk about anything in particular, I want Ashley to know that, that we're worried that for her to or her family regardless of where she is in life.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And this is where we start to see the New Testament lived out where people came together as community that had things in common and would share together and our western lifestyle has become so different to that we've become so individualized and yet when we call back into community, there's that structure and the support that we need to go ahead.
 
Suzanne Burns 
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And what's so funny, too, when when the girls first come into the house, you know, they're always very hesitant. Some of them have been in programs before and so there's there's that negative connotation, or the or the other girl is going to like me in the house, am I going to get kicked out? Is the staff going to be mean or stupid? And so you know, first we have to build the trust. But it's always really cool to see the other girls in the house band together and support her. We we work really hard to make sure that they know that that's expected of them of course, but it's also really nice when you know, a baby is coming and they're digging through their, their baby clothes trying to get things for for this new girl, or you know she's outgrowing her clothes. And so will I have a pair of pants that she can have. And, you know, I have this top that doesn't fit me anymore. And so it's really nice to watch these girls that for so long, we're more focused on self survival, and how do I manipulate this situation so that I get everything that I need. And in it, I don't care if you get anything at all, as long as I get what I need, and to see their hearts shift and be a lot more open and receptive, even when they don't know the Lord, to be willing to be that support system to somebody else that's in even greater need than they are. It's just really encouraging.
 
Rodney Olsen 
In the introduction, I mentioned that you've been helping people for 20 years now and helping other people going through various circumstances. But I guess one of the big things for those of us who are wanting to help, is ensuring that the help we provide isn't just making us feel good about doing something, but it's actually providing the help that is needed. And I know that that is something very close to your heart
 
Suzanne Burns 
Through learning about the the poverty mindset, and the lasting impact of trauma on the brain chemistry of the people that we serve, we've really learned a tremendous amount about not only how to help, but how not to help. All too often, people want to, they want to do things for other people, they want to be a blessing, you know, you see someone homeless, begging on the street and you your gut reaction all too often is to, you know, give them whatever money you have in your in your wallet, or to go buy them something to eat. But then a lot of times that very same person has a home, or they've already eaten, or you're $20 is not going to get them very far towards those goals. So sometimes people will ask me, Well, you know, what do I do if if they're just gonna buy drugs with it or buy alcohol with it? And it's like, well, you know, the reality is, is that your $20 does really nothing to get them to lasting stability. So they probably need the drugs, they need the alcohol, because that helps them forget the pain that they're in, that helps them mask the feelings of loneliness, or of cold or of overwhelming depression, it becomes a kind of a catch 22 How, how do you help these people without enabling them? The The fact of the matter is, is that you can't, unless you're willing to build a long term lasting relationship. If you only want to give them something small, then recognize that they're not beholden to you. If they want to spend it on drugs, then you know, you really don't have that kind of power, that kind of weight in that relationship. There is no relationship, there's sometimes we'll get a church that maybe has been supporting a mom. And now they're they've been paying her rent, they've been paying her grocery bill, they've been picking the kids up, and they've been doing free babysitting. And and now it's to the point where like, they're tired of this, like, Why won't she just realize the great gestures that we're all pouring into her and like, light a fire under herself to go and get a job and to go and do these things for herself. And it's like, that's not how it works. She's already been conditioned by these years of living on government assistance, living in programs, that somebody will come along and do these things for her. And all you've done is tell her that, that you're the You're the one that for now. And so when you get tired of helping her when you get frustrated, or when you get burnout, you haven't set any framework for her to learn. You've only done the things for her that she could do for herself. So we all too often are come in with a paternalistic mindset that I'm I'm going to take care of things for you so that you can you can be better you can be fixed. And it just doesn't work that way. Because really, we're coming in just like my parents didn't give me the they gave me too strong of boundaries. And I didn't know there was things outside of that. We kind of do the same things with with these individuals that we're wanting to serve. We're babying them. We're doing the things for them that they could be and should be doing for themselves. And then when we get tired of it because nobody wants to baby an adult or very long. We haven't taught them how to do it for themselves and so they're left feeling free. frustrated and abandoned. And, you know, here's, here's one more church person, that's just a liar. And we're burnout and frustrated. And think that, you know, I, clearly I can't help anybody because nobody's worth helping you know that if this is what it's all about that I'm not interested in being the hands and feet of Jesus, I don't want to be a servant, I'd rather go back to be in a Pew potato. And it's a very delicate balance to get people to understand that that dynamic,
 
Rodney Olsen 
And it can be very difficult to actually lead someone towards doing something for themselves. When they know that, well, if this church is giving up on me in their mind, then they'll wander off to the next into the next in the next. So we need to be very careful. And you've wanted to help people along that journey. You've written a book called The Accidental Social Worker, tell me a little about that.
 
Suzanne Burns 
Yeah, so that's basically my learning about all of the the brain chemistry and why they're their wiring is a little bit different when they've lived in chronic trauma and poverty mindset. And so the accidental social worker is really kind of me, I did not come into this field, intentionally. I volunteered one day a week, but I worked in the corporate world, for most of my life. And so working one on one with people for an hour, once a month, is vastly vastly different than living with people 24 seven. And so the more we began to learn about the the dynamics of trauma and the experiences and how that has reshaped, rewired their brain chemistry, the more I wanted to share this with other believers, because I know that it is incredibly important for for people to understand, we all want to help and we all want to serve, but if we can understand their mindset, and if we can understand how their brains have shifted, we can serve differently. And so we don't get burnout, we don't get frustrated. And we're also learning how to empower them towards making these decisions for themselves.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So as well as serving those who need to be served. you're serving those who want to serve through things like this book, but also, through your podcast, trauma informed church, what are some of the things that you tackle in that?
 
Suzanne Burns 
Well, I love to talk about my girls. And so what one of the things that I love to do is I love to talk about one particular dynamic in each of the sessions and use a client as an explanation. Like, for example, Brooke, one of our young ladies, she came to us in April, she was already seven months pregnant and did not know it until she got into drug rehab, which was definitely a big concern as far as the health of the baby would go. But once she realized she was pregnant, she definitely wanted to make changes. The problem is, is that Brooke has not only a strong history of meth addiction, but she also has mental health diagnoses that are inhibiting. She's bipolar, she's schizophrenic, and also has to be on medication to manage all of this. And then on top of that, she also has cognitive delays, where she's, she's 24 years old, but she's effectively a 12 year old on a good day. And on not so good days, she's more like a seven or eight year old, stubborn and defiant, doesn't understand things, always asks the same questions over and over again, really has a hard time with comprehending the answers. So we spent a lot of time working with her and trying to get her to the place where where she would be ready to make the decision either to parent or to place her baby for adoption. And she did ultimately place her baby for adoption, but not until she had spent a week as the mom it within our home, you know and so always having oversight with her. You know, she didn't make it a full week before she ended up having to go into an inpatient program. She had a mental breakdown. And so she she knew that placing her baby for adoption was the best thing for her. But she also knew that that was the most difficult thing to do. So walking through with her the pain and the challenge of really giving her no good option but placing for adoption, but also giving her the room the space that she needed to make that decision for herself. In other words, we can't legally take her baby away from her. And we wouldn't want to do that because that would break her heart. But at the same time she is not fit to pay Aren't walking her through all of that has been so challenging. Because we have to go through the same conversations over and over and over again.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You've been involved in so many different things. And obviously your podcast is going to be helping people to, to realize what they can do to help you have your book, you have your podcast, there is products online, that the the ladies that you're serving, are making this so much that people would want to get in touch with you about where's the best place to find you if, if some of our listeners are wanting to find you online, where's the best place to go?
 
Suzanne Burns 
You can download my free ebook, The Accidental Social Worker at traumainformedchurch.com You can also find out more about the products that our moms make at healingspringsgifts.com and the ministry is at foundationhouseministries.org. And we are also on Facebook and Instagram. And you can search us that way as well.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I'll put links to all of those in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so you can find all the information there. Suzanne, it really has been a delight to speak to you. There's so much more we could say if we had a number of days to keep talking but thank you so much for your time and for what you're doing to sow into other people's lives.
 
Suzanne Burns 
Thank you so much Rodney. I appreciate that.
 
Emily Olsen 
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
 

After meeting Ada, a young girl in Dominican Republic, I recorded a short radio program to tell her story. It was broadcast on 98five Sonshine FM, Perth, back in 2008. The episode is much shorter than most but I’m sure you’ll agree that it’s still powerful.
 
 
 
Compassion: http://compassion.com
Compassion Australia: http://compassion.com.au
 
Rodney Olsen is the host of Bleeding Daylight. In 2021 he will cycle over 4,000 kilometres for children living in extreme poverty through Compassion Australia. You can support Rodney's efforts as part of Ride for Compassion Coast to Coast at this fundraising page: https://rideforcompassion.raisely.com/rodneyolsen 

Sheridan Voysey is the author of seven books, a broadcaster heard by millions of people and a speaker in demand in a number of countries. Much of his success has come from the courage to share some of the deepest moments of his life with his various audiences. 
I’ve known today’s guest for many years and it’s an honour to be able to introduce you to him. I know you’ll enjoy hearing from him as he takes us on a very personal journey.
 
Website: https://sheridanvoysey.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sheridanvoysey
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sheridanvoysey/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/sheridanvoysey
 

Nalini Tranquim has lived on various continents and brings together several cultures. She’s an artist, author, singer/songwriter, life coach and so much more. Her latest song took 15 years to finish, only being completed in the aftermath of a very dark season for her family where she found herself battling depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. On Bleeding Daylight we’ll delve into some of her story and hear about the constant call on her life that she just couldn’t ignore.
 
Website: https://nalinitranquim.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nalinitranquim
Instagram: http://instagram.com/nalinitranquim
Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/au/artist/nalini-tranquim/276673958
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/15n0J9VwXV0jIMFQGrKRWO
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6Q92GI97mfxpVu36LssAlA
 

 Brian Steele is a former cult member who underwent deprogramming by a world renowned expert. Even after his escape from the cult he battled to find acceptance and belonging.
 
These days he’s a pastor and has recently become an author, publishing his first book in a series focussed on one of the parables told by Jesus.
 
He has a passion for people to discover a really real kingdom as described throughout the Christian scriptures.
 
 
Website: https://www.kingdomfieldguides.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kingdomfieldguides
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/briancsteele/
Kingdom Field Guide: https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Field-Guide-Finding-Really/dp/1952602173
Email: kingdomfieldguide@gmail.com
 
 
 
(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)
 
Emily Olsen 
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.
 
Rodney Olsen
Today’s guest on Bleeding Daylight is a former cult member who underwent deprogramming by a world renowned expert. Even after his escape from the cult he battled to find acceptance and belonging. These days he’s a pastor and has recently become an author, publishing his first book in a series focussed on one of the parables told by Jesus. He has a passion for people to discover a really real kingdom as described throughout the Christian scriptures. I’ll introduce you in a few moments.
 
Please remember to connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please also take the time to share this and other episodes through your own social media.
  
Brian Steele has been a corporate executive and a geologist. Life has taken him on many twists and turns. And these days, he's a pastor, and author. We'll explore some of the detours that Brian has taken along the way, as well as looking at his book, The Kingdom Field Guide. Brian, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
 
Brian Steele 
Thank you, Rodney, really glad to join you.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Your book looks at a story that Jesus told about searching for treasure and before we uncover more about the book, maybe we should look at your own search. Can you help me understand a little bit of your search for faith?
 
Brian Steele 
Sure, Rodney, I grew up in a Christian home but in the eighth grade, I sort of washed my hands of it all and decided to to wander and I really wandered far I found myself in some dark places in terms of drug use, and, and even involved in curious and some dark spirituality and in sort of even occultic practices. By the time I got to college, I found myself way underwater and was way over my head, and was actually scared with some of the things that I was involved with. So I had I prayed a short prayer. That was something like Lord save me. It was one of these desperation, prayers. And so the next day after that, I was going to college at the University of California in Santa Barbara. I was on campus, and there were some people there, and they were sharing a gospel message. And I thought, well, this is God, answering my prayer already. The next day, I went to a Bible study invited me to, and I made a commitment to Jesus and started a life of faith but what I didn't know was that the group that I got myself involved with was a cult and I got sucked in. And Rodney, the next three years of my life were a nightmare, not just for myself, but also for the friends and family that that really cared about me.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I want to look at the details of that cult in a moment but first of all, what was it in your upbringing, you say you were brought up in a Christian home, that made you want to look elsewhere? What was it that you can identify that made you think I need to explore something else?
 
Brian Steele 
Well, that's it's a great question. Because I had really incredible parents, I do have really incredible parents, the church for for whatever reason, I didn't connect with the practice, in, in my home church, I had felt I was also adopted as a as an infant. And I think that adoption carried a sense of, of not belonging, not because my parents didn't love me, or my brother and sister didn't love me but there was just a deep type of not belonging. You know, for example, during some of the church services, instead of mingling in the commons, at coffee hour or outside with the other kids, I would hide in the bathroom. So there was that sort of painful sense that I don't belong. So when I got old enough, in middle school, I think it was an expression of that, where if I don't belong here, where do I belong? And that just led to a journey of exploration. I think it's also something that made me very vulnerable to being recruited by the cult because cults artificially provide belonging to people who at different stages in their lives are vulnerable. So I think that made me a prime target,
 
Rodney Olsen 
I was gonna say that cult would have seen you as ripe for the picking, because you're looking for identity, you're looking for a place and and so often, that's what they are promising to people who enter the cult. What were some of the practices there that started to tip you off to the fact that this isn't quite right.
 
Brian Steele 
It was a Bible based cult. It was Christian. Their doctrine, I would say now is was basically normal Christian doctrine. What made it destructive was their practices of control, manipulation, use of fear, guilt, shame, and also practices of isolation. So they had convinced me that my family was against me, that my other friends were satanic, quote, unquote, and so they isolated me. And then in that isolation, I was much more easily to control. So it wasn't at all about the doctrine. I would say you could take the doctrine that was found there in terms of basic Christian beliefs, and you could import that into any mainline church, but it was about the abuse of authority and the abuse of control over the members lives too. Very, very small degree. Basically, there were arranged marriages, if you wanted to date somebody had to seek counsel from the leadership, and they would tell you where to live, and where to work effectively. And there was a high degree of guilt, shame and fear that was used to control people. So just for example, Rodney, there was a member who ended up leaving the cult, and a week later, he died tragically in a plane crash. And the leadership said, See, look what happens when you leave. It's that level of control and fear. And really, I was turned into a different person, my personality was replaced, I'd become somebody that was the group ideal, and it was forced into a mold. And really, I lost myself.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And I suppose that's the fear of some looking into the church from the outside that they see people taking this book that we call the scriptures, the Bible, and they can spin it in so many different ways. But what you're saying is it wasn't the Bible that was at fault, it was people trying to take stuff from the Bible and spin it in a way that it was never meant to be.
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, that's exactly right, that the scripture can be used as a two by four, to beat people into submission, we had so many different meetings in a week that the workload was, was incredible, there would be something practically every day. And if you missed something, for whatever reason, you know, one of the leading brothers would say, Brian, you know, the Bible says that we shouldn't forsake the gathering of ourselves together. And don't you think, brother that you need to be coming to all of our meetings, right likes that type of that type of control. And, and if you're isolated from the rest of your family, and friends and your, your whole world, depends on that social structure, then they can turn the love up and down, based on how you're performing and it's used to control people.
 
Rodney Olsen 
How did you eventually exit that group?
 
Brian Steele 
Well, my parents knew that something was wrong. They saw a massive change in my life, they saw the personality change. And they had tried to get me out Rodney, they had talked with me a number of times, but but I didn't have any inclination of ever leaving. So the coal was going to send me from California to a university in Bellingham, Washington called Western Washington University. And I got into went into that school as a geology graduate student, that was going to be my guys. That was going to be my cover. And then I was going to recruit college students for the cult there. So on my way from Santa Barbara, to Washington State, my parents said, Would you please just come by our house just to say hi, and I reluctantly went, and then they said, We need you to go to your uncle's house to help us move a TV. So I go to the uncle's house. Well, they had hired a world renowned expert, he was a deprogrammer, somebody who got people out of cults across the world and they kept me there for a week. It was at that time an involuntary intervention. So they took my car keys and my shoes and my wallet, and they moved furniture in front of the doors, they nailed windows shut, they removed the sharps from the kitchen, they had two big bodyguards, and I was basically kept there to prevent me from leaving so that I could listen to this man as he walked through, hour by hour, day by day. So I could finally start thinking again. And that's what got me out of the cult was this intervention that my parents performed? And I am I have so much gratitude for them. Rod knew that they would do this, that they would show me that kind of love, that they would do that level of intervention in order to get me out. And I'm so grateful for that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
At what point during that time that forced intervention, did the light start going on for you? Do you start to realize, actually, what they're saying is the truth.
 
Brian Steele 
It was probably day three or four, that the irony is that there's no system of control. And that could be a cult control. It could be a domestic violence situation works on national levels, the whole system of control is the same in any setting of that kind of social manipulation, but it's never 100% perfect. So there's always doubts and I had my doubts while I was in the group, but I just kept pushing them down or I didn't have the courage to face them or I had the fear that if I acted on those doubts that I would be basically kicked to the curb or done away with and so It took about three days of listening to the programmer where those doubts were able to surface to my mind enough. And I was able to reengage my critical thinking that I thought, oh boy, I'm in trouble I have myself in something, it's pretty deep, and it's pretty bad.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you managed to then start to see that this wasn't the place for you to be. Were there recriminations from the group, once they found out that you were leaving.
 
Brian Steele 
I didn't tell them. I just didn't show up to my mission training team where the group was, was going to do more training. Instead, my parents sent me to a rehab center in Ohio for cold victims, which was another tremendous gift. So I didn't face any recriminations from the group because I just disappeared, I didn't tell them where I was, I just literally disappeared off the map from the group. At the Counseling Center, I got to learn about all of the cult dynamics and how the psychological implications I got to unpack the psychological baggage and the emotional damage that was done, I got to straighten out some of the spiritual baggage. And Rodney, I was so fortunate to have that type of recovery, because the vast majority people who leave groups like that, never fully recover. And they never understand what happened to them and why it happened. And they carry that baggage the rest of their lives. It's so sad. So this was 30 years ago. And I still have every once in a while little twinges, I would say, I'm healed. But I have some skin. I have some scars. From that experience. I wouldn't say person who goes through that can ever be fully healed. But a person can find a life that is healthy and thriving, again, a life of faith. But it sure takes a long time running.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And what did that do, immediately after that, what did that do for your faith? Was it something that you said, Okay, well, I'm going to turn from this facade of faith into a true faith or, or did it cause you to walk away for a while?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, I think what happened is the pendulum did swing the other way. I've maintained my faith. But I walked away from the spiritual disciplines and my faith inside the cult, I had to constantly be reading the Bible, always praying, always attending meetings, always on the treadmill, and just the hamster, running as fast as you could and never getting anywhere. So when I left, I think I went too far the other way, Rodney, where I never threw my faith away. But I did wander. And I didn't have the rooting and the grounding of some of the spiritual practices that keep people grounded. So the image that I have the cult felt like Egypt, if we're looking at Israel's story, Egypt was a place of slavery. And those groups like that are effectively a type of slavery. And then from Egypt, I went into a desert, and I wandered, probably for a good 20 years of still being a believer going to church trying to engage. But it was very difficult to engage it in a way that felt like it was really meaningful. And so so there's this period of wandering. And that's, that's really normal. I do feel fortunate that I didn't completely abandon my faith, because that does happen often and understandably.
 
Rodney Olsen 
And there was still further bumps along the road during their time afterwards, weren't they?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, that's right. So during that period, what I'll call the this wilderness period, I got married, had a child, but I wasn't a whole person. In my marriage. I didn't have a life that was integrated. So I would say it felt like I was a Christian Sunday morning, probably for about an hour, and then Monday, not so much. Wednesday, Thursday, even less Friday, definitely not. Saturday, I'm repenting, so I could be a Christian again, Sunday morning. It was that sort of cycle, which effectively was a cycle of sin management. And that life of integrity, eventually, in part led to a divorce in 2008. And that was an even darker period of my life, going through divorce,
 
Rodney Olsen 
it must have been a very difficult time when you're not fully in touch with faith. So that would be difficult to hang on to. And at the same time, if this comes back to that early thing that you spoke about of not feeling that you you fit in that must have come back to haunt you again.
 
Brian Steele 
Yes. Yeah. And and actually, I've just recently started to understand this about myself with my story of belonging. Because I this last summer, I had a sabbatical and went to the soul shepherding Institute with Bill and Christie Gaultiere and, and was able to peel back some of the layers of the onion, and really look at some of the wounding in my past in a way that I hadn't before. And one of the themes was this belonging. So I think, you know, in in a cult, it's a hyper spiritualized, hyper social pressurized environment. So when I left, I think I want it to get as far away from that as I could. So I went to more of a material individual way of living, as opposed to a spiritual, social way of living. And that pendulum swing, you know, I was attending a church, but I didn't have really deep, meaningful relationships. I also had a type of pride where it was like, I don't really need other people. In terms of my faith, I had isolated myself from meaningful relationships inside the church. So as a member of the body of Christ was a member of the church, but I was withering, because I didn't allow myself to connect fully and meaningfully with other people, I was effectively cut off.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So you've been through a whole range of different things and, and now you're starting a new journey. When did the idea settle with you that you might even study and become a pastor?
 
Brian Steele 
I have a very unusual route to becoming a pastor. So during the early 2000s, I was actually practicing as a geologist, because I went to school for geology, got my graduate degree in geology, eventually, I joined a firm and was practicing engineering geology, became a partner in the company, eventually transitioned into I was transitioning to becoming president of the company, really doing very well in business and in practicing geology. And at the same time, my son was going into middle school. And so I was at a different church now, and just started volunteering in the middle school youth group, and got really surprised by how much I enjoyed working with the youth group, it was actually shocking. I was like, oh, my goodness, I deeply, deeply enjoy this. And this is satisfying in a way that I've never experienced before, was sort of alarming for me. I'm a volunteer in this ministry. And that just steamrolled, I started gaining more responsibility and having more involvement in it, it really came to a head where the The first time I got to deliver a sermon to these middle school kids, it was so deeply enjoyable. And that same week, I closed a massive business deal in my company. But I had way more satisfaction in this experience in the youth group. And then I thought, Oh, no, I'm in trouble. And so soon after that, the church actually offered me a pastor job to become the youth pastor in this ministry. I mean, that that created a huge dilemma, because I was six months into this transition to become president of the company. So I'd approach my business partners and lay it out and say, you know, this church has offered me to position to become a pastor, and I think I need to explore that. And they were so kind and so generous with me. And they said, Brian, you've been pastoring us all along anyways. So you have to go explore that opportunity. And they gave me this long, long leash, they said, Go check it out. If it's for you, that's great. If it doesn't, you can come back and you can still work for the company. And that was such a gift. And that was incredible. So I have been a pastor now for going on eight years, I was a youth pastor for three years. And now I'm working with adults and how to establish Christ as the foundation in somebody's life. And what's really cool if I could take one little side detour. Part of my responsibility at this congregation is called the belonging team, believe it or not, and my job is to help people feel like they belong in a big congregation and a big church. And I didn't even really connect the dots that this was one of the deepest aches and one of the deepest pains in my life. And God was so good and was so kind that he would use that pain and turn it around, to bring goodness into other people's lives. Like one of the deepest pains of my life, and now, it's part of who I am, and how I'm serving, and how I'm trying to help other people. And it's just, I think God is so creative in the way that he can do that.
 
Rodney Olsen 
We know that God doesn't cause the wounds in our lives, but it's constantly amazing to see the way that he takes those wounds those things that we thought were wasted years and, and turn them around. So I imagine you're able to then use that experience for others who are finding that acceptance and that belonging very difficult to be able to walk them very gently towards that belonging.
 
Brian Steele 
That's right, you know, you've you've heard the expression, death by 1000 cuts, I think the Christian life is his life by 1000, cuts, every single one of those small little wounds, the Lord is able to not just restore, and heal, but is able to turn them around to bring blessing and goodness into other people. And it's precisely those small multitude of little cuts that makes our life, I think, meaningful and exciting, and that that ultimately leads to flourishing.
 
Rodney Olsen 
I'm interested in your book and the premise solid, looking at one parable that Jesus told that's recorded in the Scripture. And you've studied this for many, many years, tell me what drew you to study this particular parable. And maybe you can start off by outlining the parable for those who perhaps haven't heard it before?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, it is Matthew 13:44, which Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field that a man finds and covers up, and then in his joy goes and sells everything, and buys that field. And I stumbled on this parable in 2012. I didn't know anything about the kingdom at all. I'd been a Christian for a long time, but the kingdom was something that was totally outside of my experience. I'd read about it in the Scripture, but it had no bearing on my life. And backing up just a little bit, actually was reading the parable of the sower. And that's a familiar one which says, you know, the sower goes out, and so as a seed, and some of the seed falls on the rocky ground and some of the thorns and some of the shallow soil, but some of the seed finds good soil. And I noticed, for the first time after reading that parable, probably hundreds of times that Jesus said, the seed is the word of the kingdom. And it stopped me dead in my tracks. Because like, I have no idea what the kingdom is. And then shortly later, I was praying the Lord's Prayer. And we'd all you know, prayed that thousands of times our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come and again, I got stopped dead in my tracks. I'm praying for his kingdom. And I have no idea what his kingdom is. And then the kicker was the parable of the hidden treasure. I believe I was that guy had been walking across a field hundreds of times. And one day, stubbed his toe, and I looked down. And there is this treasure box. And so Rodney, I've been studying that single parable for over eight years now. And the question for me, that I've just been exploring is, what is the kingdom? And why is it worth everything? What is the kingdom? And why is it worth everything? I had to wrestle through whether Jesus was actually being a scam artist when he was telling that parable because my experience was, I don't even know what the kingdom is. So really, you're wanting me to sell everything to acquire this thing? And it didn't seem like a good deal for me at first, does that resonate with you at all?
 
Rodney Olsen 
Yeah, it's interesting that, you know, Jesus doesn't seem to tell us exactly what the kingdom is. It's so much of Scripture is the kingdom is like this. It's like this. It's like this will just tell us what it is.
 
Brian Steele 
Right? So and I think that's intentional. And Jesus being deeply rooted in Hebrew Scriptures and being a Jew himself. The Hebrew scriptures are intentionally vague, because they are inviting you in to explore. It's very different than western teaching. Western teaching is going to go here's your five steps for doing XYZ And then you can do this and that. But Hebrew literature in the Hebrew tradition is filled with question and filled the gaps and ambiguity and filled with mystery so that you step in and you explore the world. And when I say that I've been studying the parable of the hidden treasure for eight years, I really mean if you, if you open that treasure box, and begin to walk through the hidden chambers that are within inside that treasure, it really is endless. It's like pulling this piece of yarn, and you're pulling in, you're pulling in, you're pulling and you're pulling, and it's connected to a sweater that's infinitely large, and you're gonna just keep pulling. And but what happened was Rodney, it was a second conversion in my Christian faith. Everything seemed like it was brand new when I discovered that God's kingdom is not a metaphor, that it's not a symbol, but that it is a real actual kingdom, here and now and that Jesus is a real actual King.
 
Rodney Olsen 
When did you start to really come to terms with what you believe this parable is saying?
 
Brian Steele 
That the shift for me is when the kingdom became there, it was a transition from the kingdom becoming real. To the kingdom being really real. This is just an example what I mean by really real. Four years ago, my wife, Katie, got a brain tumor. Before that time, I thought that the brain tumors are real, but they had no bearing on my life whatsoever. They were just kind of real. out there, it was external to my life had no impact on my life. But the moment that we found out about my wife's diagnosis, instantly, brain tumors became really real. That tumor affected every single detail of our life, it invaded almost every conversation that I have, that we had it, it affected our finances, it affected our planning, it affected how we spent our time, it affected our community, brain tumors went from being real, to really real, and that it wove through every fiber of our lives. And that's also what happens with God's kingdom. There's a moment when it becomes something external way out there, that when you realize God's kingdom is really real, and has a bearing upon every breath, that you take every word that you speak every dime, that you spend every minute of your day, every resource, every relationship that hit the rule and reign of Jesus as King has complete and total influence in your life. And meaning and significance. That's when it became it became something. And so that's this, the title of the book is the Kingdom Field Guide: Keys to Finding God's Really Real Kingdom, because Rodney, I don't think the parable, the hidden treasure makes sense so long as we think the kingdom is real. It's not enough. We're not going to go and sell everything for something that's real. It has to become really real.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Do you find that there are a lot of people in churches who would subscribe to traditional Christian belief, and yet they haven't caught this idea of a really real kingdom. And so therefore, it's part of their life. This Christian faith is part of their life. It's not all consuming as you're explaining, with this idea of the kingdom,
 
Brian Steele 
I think, yes, I think for the majority of Christians, I would even say the majority of Christian pastors, for a lot of pastors and leaders and influencers, the kingdom isn't yet really real. But they haven't understood that it's an actual kingdom. There's a tremendous irony in this, in that we were designed and made to live in an eternal kingdom. So it's written in our DNA. And so if you look at the consumption of media, people spend billions and billions of dollars on Kingdom narratives. Any successful franchise is a kingdom narrative. So Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, all of the Marvel movies, all of the Disney films, they're all Kingdom narratives. It's practically the only thing we'll pay money to watch is a good Kingdom narrative down Abby, like, I'm kind of ashamed to say that, you know, we've been 50 hours of Downton Abbey. And there's a reason. It's because it's a very good Kingdom story. So the irony is, is we're starving for Kingdom narratives were desperate for it will consume them in massive quantities. So I think it's something like this kingdom is the only thing we know. But the problem is, we don't know that we know it. It's operating back of mind.
 
Rodney Olsen 
So really, it's a case of when we do stumble across it, finally, we see it there, that's when we're prepared to sell everything for it, because we realize the value of it.
 
Brian Steele 
That's right, and and that it's been there the whole time. It's always there. The premise of my book is you can't see what you don't seek. And that the kingdom will remain invisible. It might even seem unreal, until you start seeking it as your highest priority. And that's why Jesus says, Matthew 6:33, Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. And he's saying, you don't want to seek it, like you've lost your car keys. You want to seek the kingdom, like you've lost a child, that type of priority. And until seeking God's kingdom becomes the priority of our life. It's not gonna matter. That's the the experience in the in the parable. Imagine the guy walking across the field, again, hundreds of times, the hidden treasure, it's not hidden, because it's buried. It's hidden, because he's not looking for it. So it's there. But he stubs his toe, he sees there's a box there he lifts the lid, he starts pouring through the treasure there's there needs to be I think we have to have a period in our lives where we have to dedicate our mind and our thinking by asking what is the kingdom and searching scripture to see what the kingdom is, then eventually, it's going to move from our mind into our heart, we're going to understand the value. So I love in this in this parable, I have this image in my mind where he's, he's finally captured the value of what he's just found. Then he looks up and what does he see? Rodney, he sees a for sale sign, and this field is for sale. And that's why Jesus says in his joy, he goes and sells everything that he has, it's a no brainer. And that's a test to find out if you have found the kingdom or not. Because if you have, it'll be your greatest joy, your highest priority to have the mother of all garage sales. If you're not yet ready to give everything that you have in exchange for the kingdom, you haven't yet found it or you haven't yet discovered that it's really real.
 
Rodney Olsen 
How do we begin that journey? How do we stub our toe so to speak?
 
Brian Steele 
Rodney, that is the question. It's such an important question. Part of the answer is that we have to learn about the kingdom in a way that Jesus taught the kingdom. He taught by using immersive experiences. So yes, he gave some sermons. And yes, he gave some teachings. But you have to look at where and how he taught. So he taught on location. In these places. The first century Jews were already intimately familiar with and his teaching used the physical stuff that they already knew. So he'd say, Oh, the teaching is like a seed. While they're like you mentioned, they're an agricultural society, so they understand farming. Or he would say the kingdom is like this net that's in the water. Well, they would understand that because they're fishermen, or the kingdom is like leaven while they cook with bread. And so they would understand that, the point being that you have to learn about the kingdom in the way that Jesus taught about the kingdom. So my book, I call it the Kingdom Field Guide, because I'm giving people immersive experiences, to learn about the kingdom, I'm directing people to, to physical places that are going to be all around them, and giving them experiences for learning and how to engage their site, how to engage their mind, how to engage all of their senses, to be immersed, so that the kingdom isn't just something that's just limited to their imagination, but they began to connect it to the real world.
 
Rodney Olsen 
You've obviously been on this journey for some time as you've studied this parable. What has been the response of those people that you've helped to take on that journey for those who have entered into this study that you've done and realized it for themselves?
 
Brian Steele 
It's been so fun. I've worked with hundreds of people in my pastor role. And I've seen what's most interesting. I feel like it's been really valuable for people who are in leadership, who have responsibilities in ministry, but they're stuck, and how they communicate to other people about the gospel. So for example, the person who wrote the foreword to the book, his name is Joshua Sheets and he is in high level leadership in a international discipling ministry. And up until the time when we had, we started talking about the kingdom. He didn't know how to communicate to the kingdom, to people that are in his ministry to his leaders. And even further down to the people he was serving. Heat stubbed his toe on the king on the hidden treasure. And this is somebody who has been in ministry for four years. And it became really real to him. And what was so cool was it when he had a sabbatical, he set up different field trips for his family. So they traveled to Israel and to Europe. And he literally like for his kids, he, he hid a box in a field and it gave his children an immersive experience in finding a treasure. And then that helped them understand what God's kingdom was. So I think it's it's all about the immersive experience. It's about the way of learning and the way of really embodying faith. And I've had multiple encounters with people like that who've been Christians for decades, decades, decades, who have not yet made the connection, that God's kingdom isn't just real, but really real,
 
Rodney Olsen 
Is the book available for people to purchase now?
 
Brian Steele 
It is being published going to be on Amazon. And this is book one in a series of seven or eight, all about the parable of the hidden treasure. And you think that one book is enough to explain a parable but 10 books, Rodney is not going to be enough to explain the parable, the hidden treasure, it's all scratching the surface, I think I'd like to speak to people who are in a place where they've they feel stuck. Or maybe they feel like their faith is boring, or dull, or it's routine. And I just want them to know that there is a life of flourishing that's available in this life. That there is like a sense of thrill and excitement. When we discover God's kingdom is really real that that's unlike any other kind of religious duty or any kind of, of just kind of going through the motions. That's really My prayer is that people would stub their toe on the hidden treasure.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Do you find sometimes that people are so caught up in this idea of kingdom, the kingdom to come in eternity, that they are losing the opportunity to live kingdom right now?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, I think it's a huge problem. Well, we have to agree that Jesus is an actual King right now, when he said all authority in heaven on earth has been given to me. That's a description of his current rule and reign that right now at this moment, his kingdom is here, not yet fully. But his kingdom has been inaugurated. And in fact, we are the body of Christ, the king, we are the the embodiment of the king on Earth. That means something if we've been delegated that role, and authority to act on behalf of the name of the king, then there's a real tragedy when that doesn't occur. And I even think of, of recently, Prince Harry, and and Princess Meghan, they have recently decided that they don't want to have official duties in the royal family. And so they've moved to Los Angeles and they have, in a sense abdicated their royalty. In many ways. That is a picture of how many Christians are living their lives, that in reality, they are royalty. They have been given responsibilities in the kingdom of God to act on behalf of the king. But they've decided to abdicate their royalty. They've decided to to live outside of the responsibilities The stewardship that's been entrusted to them, which means they're also going to lose a huge amount of the blessing that comes from, from working and living and having that type of relationship. On behalf of the king, there is a loss.
 
Rodney Olsen 
It's fascinating to start to delve into this whole area, or coming out of this, this parable, and the parables around it, where, where Jesus talks about pearls and all sorts of things. But if someone is wanting to get hold of the book, or to get in touch with you, I will put some links in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet. But where's the easiest place to track you down?
 
Brian Steele 
Yeah, go to kingdomfieldguides.com. That's field guides with an S. And you can sign up to get the book. There'll be information there. You can also find me on Facebook, I have a Facebook page called Kingdom field guides. Or if you'd like to email me I'd love to, to have connection with people and my email is kingdomfieldguide@gmail.com.
 
Rodney Olsen 
Brian, it really has been an honor to chat to you to talk about some of the things that you've discovered as you've lived life and to come to this point where this book is ready to get out there and to invite others into this kingdom. Thank you so much for your time today.
 
Brian Steele 
Rodney, thank you so much. It's been a great honor being on Bleeding Daylight.
 
Emily Olsen 
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